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Attempting to Shatter the Skies: An Ace Combat Plan Quest

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7th Hex said:
How fortunate then that DAWN SHEPHERD also has an explicit line in the concept about how it can travel beyond the atmosphere if needed, allowing it to also launch attacks on asteroid fragments before they re-enter, and if they really need to the whole nuclear ramjet part means that sending them "around the world" is entirely within their range (if a suborbital hop doesn't do the same thing faster while also maybe getting a shot on it while exo-atmospheric).
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Well yes. The problem is that the overall flight mission profile for using the nuclear ramjet (plus ancillary orbital maneuvering thrusters) to launch, enter orbit, return to base, and land is at minimum going to be on the order of 2-3 hours, and orbital mechanics forces some further constraints.

It's just... fairly plausible, even foreseeable, that we'll be needing these things to be in more than one place at one time.

Because we would build them to be able to? That's kind of like asking: "How are you going to intercept all the asteroid fragments we're going to over the two weeks with just a single laser emitter and some reflector satellites?" The answer is that we figured out how we would need to build them in order to pull that off, then did it.
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The trick with the reflector satellites is that the laser can fire at any time, and the reflector satellites are always just passively up there, and both the mirrors and the laser cannon itself are adjustable, aimable systems that can be redirected to point at targets of our choosing. We can shoot at one target, then shoot at a different and widely separated target a minute or two later. There's no 2-3 hour time delay in which the entire weapon system is unavailable after being launched to engage a single target.

DAWN SHEPHERD is still a perfectly viable concept, mind you. It's just that if only one fighter is available at a time, then I suspect that one fighter isn't going to be able to provide the kind of potentially-global coverage we need to prevent tsunamis from hitting our shores.

From your criticism and cost assumptions sounds like you've got this idea in your mind that it's going to be just something like a souped up nuclear F15 or MiG 25 or something flying around to shoot the fragments down. I don't expect these to be anything like conventional interceptors, because they're not being designed for anything approaching a conventional interception mission.
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Honestly, I'm picturing something that much more closely resembles a hybrid between a vastly scaled-up version of the X-43, the Space Shuttle, and the Lockheed YF-12.

The trouble is that no matter how amazing the interceptor itself is, unless it's able to teleport or has a science fiction propulsion system on the level of, say, an X-Wing... it can only be in one place at one time for purposes of its intended mission, and it's got a fairly stiff minimum sortie time requirement.

Except that we don't need to hit any target anywhere in the world over a 24 hour stretch, only any asteroid fragment that is 1) landing in a place that would actually threaten us with a tsunami over on the other side of Antarctica, and 2) actually of large enough size to cause a threatening tsunami to hit us from the distance it impacts. That's a much easier task to accomplish on our end, everything else isn't a threat we need to send a missile at.
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Given the number of Ulysses fragments that are coming down, I find it somewhat optimistic to suppose that there will only be a need for one or even two fighters to be aerospace-borne engaging such targets at any one time, given the more or less minimum physically possible turnaround time of three-ish hours for the craft to take off, orbit the Earth once, land, and have any time at all to reload.

What it comes down to, for me, is that I expect the interception situation to be pretty hectic, with a need to engage lots and lots of targets, basically, not just a few.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well yes. The problem is that the overall flight mission profile for using the nuclear ramjet (plus ancillary orbital maneuvering thrusters) to launch, enter orbit, return to base, and land is at minimum going to be on the order of 2-3 hours, and orbital mechanics forces some further constraints.

It's just... fairly plausible, even foreseeable, that we'll be needing these things to be in more than one place at one time.

The trick with the reflector satellites is that the laser can fire at any time, and the reflector satellites are always just passively up there, and both the mirrors and the laser cannon itself are adjustable, aimable systems that can be redirected to point at targets of our choosing. We can shoot at one target, then shoot at a different and widely separated target a minute or two later. There's no 2-3 hour time delay in which the entire weapon system is unavailable after being launched to engage a single target.

DAWN SHEPHERD is still a perfectly viable concept, mind you. It's just that if only one fighter is available at a time, then I suspect that one fighter isn't going to be able to provide the kind of potentially-global coverage we need to prevent tsunamis from hitting our shores.

Honestly, I'm picturing something that much more closely resembles a hybrid between a vastly scaled-up version of the X-43, the Space Shuttle, and the Lockheed YF-12.

The trouble is that no matter how amazing the interceptor itself is, unless it's able to teleport or has a science fiction propulsion system on the level of, say, an X-Wing... it can only be in one place at one time for purposes of its intended mission, and it's got a fairly stiff minimum sortie time requirement.

Given the number of Ulysses fragments that are coming down, I find it somewhat optimistic to suppose that there will only be a need for one or even two fighters to be aerospace-borne engaging such targets at any one time, given the more or less minimum physically possible turnaround time of three-ish hours for the craft to take off, orbit the Earth once, land, and have any time at all to reload.

What it comes down to, for me, is that I expect the interception situation to be pretty hectic, with a need to engage lots and lots of targets, basically, not just a few.
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Why spend the entire time to only engage a single target? It's entirely possible for even non-superweapons to carry multiple missiles and shoot them at multiple targets. There's no need for it to spend three hours going after just a single fragment, that would be pretty wasteful. Just figure out how many fragments they're likely to need to intercept at most in a rotation, and give them enough missiles to do so without needing to stop and reload, then just only have them land and start the turnaround once that's over.

When it comes down to it, we have been told that a 3 interceptor Huge scope DAWN SHEPHERD is a viable project to defend against Ulysses fragments. And I trust that it's correct, and that our scientists will make it work out in the end if completed despite any seeming issues. If any of those potentially rough spots look like they would prevent it from working in real life outside the quest, well that's just Ace Combat.
 
7th Hex said:
Why spend the entire time to only engage a single target? It's entirely possible for even non-superweapons to carry multiple missiles and shoot them at multiple targets.
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Yes, but given the limits of the available rocket technology, they're still going to be limited to singular firing passes at targets that are close enough to their orbital track.

If the vision really is that we keep them on the ground in GDI except when they are intercepting specific targeted fragments, I'd want a lot more than three. To get past that problem, mind you...

When it comes down to it, we have been told that a 3 interceptor Huge scope DAWN SHEPHERD is a viable project to defend against Ulysses fragments. And I trust that it's correct, and that our scientists will make it work out in the end if completed despite any seeming issues. If any of those potentially rough spots look like they would prevent it from working in real life outside the quest, well that's just Ace Combat.
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[shrug]

I dunno. My own take is that if it's workable with three spacefighters, it'll be because we keep all three in orbit for days at a time like actual space shuttles, tossing interceptor rockets at the specific fragments deemed most threatening, and only doing a re-entry/landing when it's time for one of the craft to reload munitions. They'd probably need to be multi-seaters, with two pilots (working in shifts) and a missileer/radar operator or something.

Ultimately, I don't want to say "this won't work," but I do want to say that certain visions of their operational tempo may be infeasible.
 
Dawn Shepherd flies with nuclear ramjets, no serious use case for them is going to make them single seater jet interceptors.
 
grimely said:
Yes, but that's a big if
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My gut feeling, which could be wrong, is that there's a fairly narrow window where we finish the project fast enough to get the three we want, but not fast enough to produce a fourth. With a big risk of making like Chandelier and not having any ready on Ulysses Day, as with any Huge/Monumental project.
 
Simon_Jester said:
My gut feeling, which could be wrong, is that there's a fairly narrow window where we finish the project fast enough to get the three we want, but not fast enough to produce a fourth. With a big risk of making like Chandelier and not having any ready on Ulysses Day, as with any Huge/Monumental project.
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We can increase the size of that window by gaining access to more resources. Like drawing nearby wealthy countries into GDI.
 
Silvis said:
We can increase the size of that window by gaining access to more resources. Like drawing nearby wealthy countries into GDI.
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No, that just makes the window narrower in a good way. It'll accelerate the day when we complete the third plane, but also accelerate the day when we could complete the fourth plane. But I would welcome such a development.
 
Simon_Jester said:
[shrug]

I dunno. My own take is that if it's workable with three spacefighters, it'll be because we keep all three in orbit for days at a time like actual space shuttles, tossing interceptor rockets at the specific fragments deemed most threatening, and only doing a re-entry/landing when it's time for one of the craft to reload munitions. They'd probably need to be multi-seaters, with two pilots (working in shifts) and a missileer/radar operator or something.

Ultimately, I don't want to say "this won't work," but I do want to say that certain visions of their operational tempo may be infeasible.
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[Shrug]

Well, the 1 up 2 down shift schedule was explicitly listed in the project description that was called viable, even if the exact shift duration wasn't. So whether that winds up as 12/24, 24/48, or even something extremely wacky like 48/96 I trust that our people can put out a design that does what we need it to at a Huge scope even with just one at the in the air at any given time.
 
A shame that we won't have our first giant planes but hopefully next time when we get the chance!
 
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Vote Closed
  • Voting

    • Scheduled vote count started by grimely on Aug 1, 2024 at 2:52 AM, finished with 42 posts and 14 votes.
    • [X] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!
      -[X] Project JOYEUSE
      -[X] Scope: Huge
      --[X] Core Moderate laser tower project plus supplementary laser launch, reflector satellite, and beam upgrade projects
      -[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
      -[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
      -[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
      [X] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.
      -[X] Project DAWN SHEPERD
      -[X] Scope: Huge
      -[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
      -[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
      -[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
      -[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade
      [X] Plan: Global Defense
      -[X] Project STONE SPLITTER
      -[X] Scope: Monumental
      -[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
      -[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
      -[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
      -[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade
      [X] Plan: To the Skies!
      -[X] Project ALBATROSS V3
      -[X] Scope: Monumental
      -[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
      -[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
      -[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
      -[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade
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  • Voting
    • On the bright side, BIG LASERS WOOO!

    On the other hand, we need a call for a meeting to rename ourselves the "Antarc and Friends Defense Coalition". :p
     
    Cult Scare + Brotherhood Study Sessions ➝ Fear of the Faithful: Footage of the study sessions has played on almost every major network in the world since they began, increasing the PR damage caused by the defamatory documentary on the Brotherhood.

    The dice penalty from Cult Scare is permanent

    Fucking hell welp guess that is here for good.
     
    LucidProp said:
    On the bright side, BIG LASERS WOOO!

    On the other hand, we need a call for a meeting to rename ourselves the "Antarc and Friends Defense Coalition". :p
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    Look, we do not have the budget to actually fend off Ulysses all by ourselves. With this laser cannon, we can at least fuck up any asteroids passing over the southern hemisphere and potentially do the globe in general some favors.

    Like, if there are asteroids on looping trajectories and in decaying orbits, then anything that de-orbits over Anea probably passes over our skies at some point not too long before, which makes it eligible for us to lase it. Just an example.
     
    Asmodemus said:
    The plan for the weapon that was intended to do that was deemed viable, just dangerous if we failed to get it done on time though?

    It was only noted that staged stuff is safer, not possible versus impossible.
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    The way Grimely handled the descriptions, my impression is that "VIABLE" means "this is technologically possible and would probably work, mechanically speaking," not necessarily "we can pull this off." Grimely's been quite explicit that a Monumental project capable of affecting worldwide Ulysses impacts is going to be very problematic for us to complete with the resources we know to be available to us. A nation like Osea could plausibly finish something like Arkbird, and the Useans could plausibly build some kind of boosted super-Stonehenge designed to protect more than the Usean continent. Those would be Monumental projects; Stonehenge itself is merely Huge. Note that the Arkbird wasn't finished in time for Ulysses...

    It really, really, really is not a good idea for us to commit to a project that will not give us results if we can't hack through 10,000 points of Progress in twelve turns. And even a Monumental project would not fully nullify Ulysses' impact; we'd have "positive impact upon the entire globe," but that's only going to get us so far.

    Basically, I think that it's going to be bad for the thread culture if we have a lot of recrimination over the "we didn't take a Monumental project, like cowards" line. There were damn good reasons not to do that, because whatever our big aspirations are, only a couple of small, relatively poor countries at the ass end of the world are actually funding and supporting us to deal with the problem right now.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    Basically, I think that it's going to be bad for the thread culture if we have a lot of recrimination over the "we didn't take a Monumental project, like cowards" line. There were damn good reasons not to do that, because whatever our big aspirations are, only a couple of small, relatively poor countries at the ass end of the world are actually funding and supporting us to deal with the problem right now.
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    We can still make fun of how overly ambitious our name is now compared to what we actually went for though. I think that's only fair of us.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    Just because we're an initiative for defending the globe doesn't mean we're ready to defend the entire globe in under three years, from a standing start.
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    It was considered a viable project, so yes, we could have done so if we played well. Otherwise, what would be the point of adding Monumental as an option if it was a auto-lose?

    That said, this is all a moot point considering the vote that won is Huge rather than Monumental. I like the satellite laser plan, so I'm a bit lost as to why you're so needled over a joke about our unfortunate name choice.
     
    LucidProp said:
    It was considered a viable project, so yes, we could have done so if we played well. Otherwise, what would be the point of adding Monumental as an option if it was a auto-lose?
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    We were told to expect to need both good play and luck to complete a Monumental project.

    There's a difference between "you can only succeed at this with near-optimal play and some luck" and "auto-lose," but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to choose the former situation if you want to win.

    That said, this is all a moot point considering the vote that won is Huge rather than Monumental. I like the satellite laser plan, so I'm a bit lost as to why you're so needled over a joke about our unfortunate name choice.
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    I'm sorry. I have a lot of history with quests that went varying degrees of sour because of individuals who would chronically decide that the questers' having chosen A rather than B in a vote entitled them to get rather nasty about how we were all screwed and/or cowards and/or otherwise bad and worthy of scorn for having chosen A.

    It's left me with a bit of a hair-trigger regarding things that look or feel like criticism of the outcome of a vote. So I'm probably overreacting because of that history- I have a hard time telling the difference between "we're making a joke about how 'global' sounds pretentious if we can't stop Ulysses from doing damage to other continents thousands of kilometers away" and "we're telling people they betrayed the ambitions of the game start by choosing to concentrate resources on something less immediately ambitious."
     
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