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Arsonist's Lullaby: An Azula Timeloop Quest

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[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
[X] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.
 
[X] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.
 
[X] With practicality. If Zuko truly wants what is best for the Fire Nation, he must recognise that unlike you, he simply does not know how to be Fire Lord. It has been years since he was last taught to rule, and he was never a talented student to begin with. There is no purpose to his blathering about honour and destiny if the nation crumbles under his leadership within a few years, torn apart by enemies within and without. You're willing to allow some degree of compromise, to permit him back within the halls of power as an influence, but the Fire Lord must be strong, and so the Fire Lord must be you.

Gosh, I love this. I assume Azula got confirmation of what Zuko told her?
 
[x] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.
 
[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
Sympathy feels like it may end up with Zuko going "...but why should you have to be a monster?", with an implicit "I don't think you deserve that" in there.

[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
For those better versed in common sense and debate, does the argument of Challenge actually hold water here? It does seem to work superficially, but I'm not sure how it fits in the actual situation here.
 
[X] With practicality. If Zuko truly wants what is best for the Fire Nation, he must recognise that unlike you, he simply does not know how to be Fire Lord. It has been years since he was last taught to rule, and he was never a talented student to begin with. There is no purpose to his blathering about honour and destiny if the nation crumbles under his leadership within a few years, torn apart by enemies within and without. You're willing to allow some degree of compromise, to permit him back within the halls of power as an influence, but the Fire Lord must be strong, and so the Fire Lord must be you.
 
Random Member said:
None of them are good arguments and they won't work. Pick depending on how you think they'll make Azula develop in future loops.
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Good to know. May I ask why Challenge is a bad argument? Can't quite see that, while the others are pretty clear to me.

As for which option I think would be better, Sympathy would be good too, but I'm not sure where that direction would go since the option blurb is fairly self-contained? "You can stop being a monster now" is both true and useless in the current context of the story after all.
 
[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
Parabola said:
Sympathy feels like it may end up with Zuko going "...but why should you have to be a monster?", with an implicit "I don't think you deserve that" in there.
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Hmm, might be able to Break this Truth, or at least give it a good beating.
Magery said:
(2/3) Monster?

There is a lonely path in the palace. At the end of that lonely path is a room. And in that room is a girl called monster. Her name is Azula, and she struggles to understand feelings. Or family. All that is left to her is what she has been taught: and what she has been taught is to want, to take, and to not care if the taking hurts. But it does. And even a monster may grow tired of pain.
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[X] With practicality. If Zuko truly wants what is best for the Fire Nation, he must recognise that unlike you, he simply does not know how to be Fire Lord. It has been years since he was last taught to rule, and he was never a talented student to begin with. There is no purpose to his blathering about honour and destiny if the nation crumbles under his leadership within a few years, torn apart by enemies within and without. You're willing to allow some degree of compromise, to permit him back within the halls of power as an influence, but the Fire Lord must be strong, and so the Fire Lord must be you.
 
[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
[X ] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.
 
[X] With practicality. If Zuko truly wants what is best for the Fire Nation, he must recognise that unlike you, he simply does not know how to be Fire Lord. It has been years since he was last taught to rule, and he was never a talented student to begin with. There is no purpose to his blathering about honour and destiny if the nation crumbles under his leadership within a few years, torn apart by enemies within and without. You're willing to allow some degree of compromise, to permit him back within the halls of power as an influence, but the Fire Lord must be strong, and so the Fire Lord must be you.
 
[X] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.
 
[X] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.

I like this a lot. It's undeniably true that Fire Lord Zuko with Advisor Azula is less stable than Fire Lord Azula with Advisor Zuko. That doesn't mean Zuko will be convinced, but it does mean that the two of them will have to actually talk about the (post-loop) future dynamics they want to create. We've dwelt on the past and the present, I think it's time to think critically about what happens when the loops end.
 
[X] With sympathy. Zuko wishes to be Fire Lord for the sake of his dreams. But the Fire Lord does not dream. The Fire Lord does not feed scraggly turtle-ducks in quiet afternoons beside the pond. The Fire Lord is the scale on which all life in the Fire Nation is weighed. Even if he could survive the pressure, the man who emerged from that crucible would not be the man Zuko wishes to be. But you? You are already a monster. You are already willing to do all the things it would ruin your brother to do. The sooner he sees that, the sooner he will understand you are the only choice to rule.

[X] With a challenge. Suppose Zuko becomes Fire Lord. Has he thought about what he's going to do about you? You are, after all, the previous Fire Lord's favoured heir and a bending prodigy with a proven military history who knows all those roaming the corridors of power by name, ambition, and vice. You undermine his rule just by existing; surely he paid enough attention in his studies to recall the Camellia-Peony war, if nothing else. But the Zuko who wishes to be Fire Lord is the Zuko whose fantasy of peace and brotherhood across the lands will refuse to purge you until it is too late—and that is why you must be Fire Lord instead. Not because you are willing to purge him, but because you would not need to.

These two seem appealing, and Practicality has its own draw too.
 
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Objectively speaking, Sympathy is the best choice. The overarching goal is to get Azula some therapy, and this is an obvious way to get Zuko to fight her on her claim of being a monster. If it doesn't outright break that truth, it'll at least criple it.

BUT I WANNA SEE ZUKO'S TAX POLICY

[X] With practicality. If Zuko truly wants what is best for the Fire Nation, he must recognise that unlike you, he simply does not know how to be Fire Lord. It has been years since he was last taught to rule, and he was never a talented student to begin with. There is no purpose to his blathering about honour and destiny if the nation crumbles under his leadership within a few years, torn apart by enemies within and without. You're willing to allow some degree of compromise, to permit him back within the halls of power as an influence, but the Fire Lord must be strong, and so the Fire Lord must be you.
 
I don't think sympathy is going to get us very far. There's precisely zero established trust to help it come across as genuine. 'Azula always lies' doesn't go away after one honest conversation. Practicality might go a little further, but I'm not sure. Zuko's in the position of a revolutionary, and if he wants to carve a new path forward he's not going to be so fussed about those things.

I think a challenge is the way to go. It's an undeniable truth, but the biggest obstacle with this one is probably Iroh? He came last cycle, so presumably he'd come again since we didn't nab anyone? We'd be starting mostly from scratch again with him, but I still think this is the way to go. This whole mess started several generations ago with internal throne squabling and we can probably challenge Iroh with whether it's really correct to end things the same way they began.

So to that end...

[X] With a challenge.
 
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