Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

[Photomajig]

@Photomajig What units, be it those that are either part of Arné's army or other nations', do we know of that rank as Elite in terms of XP?

Click to shrink...

Every Golden Realm has its royal guards units, often of a minority race. Clotaire had his Wolf Guard, Ivernia has elite nymph regiments, etc. Other than that, you're looking at the very best of regular fighting units. I don't have a comprehensive list for you, so instead I'll ask: what do you think? Based on the nation descriptions and updates, what seems likely?

 

[Chimeraguard]

Hmm, well for Norn I think it would be something based off the Potsdam Giants. Maybe Ogres?

IRL Prussia's bodyguard was a cavalry unit, but Norn de-emphasizes cavalry and operates on a much more conservative and defensive style of combat compared to IRL Prussia. So I'd say it would either be Potsdam Giant expies, or a group of specifically made Dwarf bodyguards with a particular stone makeup in their construction.

Possibly both actually. Or at least, both being present as "Elite Nornish formations." Though It would feel awkward to introduce Ogres I feel when there's been no mention of them beforehand, but then, maybe that's the case for all of the minority Kin.

EDIT: A third possibility would be a regiment formed out of Devil emigres, but given that the Deluge was just a century ago and that just accepting Devil refugees caused Norn's monarch to have a falling out with the nation's Archbishop, I think that forming an elite guard unit out of Devils would be a step too far for the Golden Realms. And it probably wouldn't be an Elite unit with a longstanding tradition (unless Norn was directly recruiting veterans of Hell's army, which I think would just be flat-out unacceptable to the Church.)

 

[Photomajig]

Scheduled vote count started by Photomajig on Mar 24, 2024 at 10:53 AM, finished with 188 posts and 35 votes.

• ---

  19 people have voted

  [X] Go on the offensive.
  -[X] Approach Daurstein
  --[X] Write the assembly that the moment for offensive action against Norn is here, and fleeting fast. Inform them of the state of the western army. Ask for reinforcements to secure the Nornish border and, should they deem it necessary, start proper offensive operations. Explain that the 5th is at the border of Norn around Martelnac, taking Daurstein as a defensive buffer with the goal of stopping any enemy from even stepping on Arnése soil. Stress your determination to abide by any decision and order the rightful government of the people will give you. You are merely obeying the spirit instead of the letter of your orders for a good defense by taking the rapidly changing local situation into account, not deciding how the war should be waged.
  --[X] Tell Guillory to join you at Daurstein. Stress that any future offensive must pass through Daurstein, with Arnesé having the opportunity to secure a buffer. Say that you won't let the opportunity to pass and make the need to be together for Trotha's potentially superior numbers to be overcome very clear. Explain your reasoning, thus letting him on on the logic and hopefully softening any hint of presumption therein.
  --[X] Send couriers/demands ahead: Offer very generous terms to the enemy officers, very, very generous terms to the enemy soldiers, and generous and reasonable terms to Daurstein ahead of your arrival, even if it might mean a slight delay. Make it clear that it is not your intent to war on the People of Norn, and that insisting on fighting will only cause unnecessary loss of life.
  ---[X] Potential for promise of parole from the officers involving a promise not to fight against Arne for the rest of the war, and surrender of the two field artillery, but not the artillerymen, who are free to go with the rest. These are negotiable points, but something must be done with the artillery pieces, or at least that seems to be the case.
  --[X] Make sure this information is widely known, using more than one messenger, so that it cannot be hidden from either the populace or the common soldier.
  --[X] Hold off on the decision on whether to assault or set up a siege until actually at Daurstein, and judge based on reactions to the surrender requests, weather factors, etc, etc.

  • The Laurent
  • abominable
  • Mishar
  • Theonetruelordke
  • Parzival95
  • Nevis
  • The Sandman
  • Finerc
  • BananosMoon
  • Red Rationalist
  • EagerListener
  • Kinruush
  • DocMatoi
  • Pinniped
  • MrRageQuit
  • Bruhmoment
  • wabbitking
  • notbirdofprey
  • Whilryke

  9 people have voted

  [X] Go on the offensive.
  -[X] Assault Daurstein.

  • Astra Myst
  • Valerian
  • Falliant
  • dacsan
  • WGDragoon
  • Nerdorama
  • Chimeraguard
  • Pempelune
  • BoredStudent1414

  3 people have voted

  [X] Go on the offensive.
  -[X] Besiege Daurstein.

  • Some_guy_161
  • PeaterDuck12
  • buli-buli

  1 people have voted

  [X] Remain on the defensive.
  -[X] Leave the army and ride to Antreville.

  • silentorphan

  1 people have voted

  [X] Go on the offensive.
  -[x] March for Engelsburg.

  • Random Member

  1 people have voted

  [X] Go on the offensive.
  -[x] Besiege Daurstein. Half a day. An offensive is smart, but Daurstein is somewhat fortified and a direct assault will get a lot of your men killed. It's better to surround the city and demand its surrender. If they choose to hold out, you might be stuck here for a while, though.

  • RamiroGalletti

  1 people have voted

  -[X] Assault Daurstein.

  • LtDanAintGotLegs

 

[DivineAlM]

@Photomajig what is the difference between a Golden and Silver Realm? Is there also a general information on the continents of the setting?

I love this quest and what you do. The world you've crafted is interesting

 

[NSchwerte]

Arne does love its Hobs charging forward, but it also loves to sacrifice these hobs charging forward to ensure victory. Thats not really conductive to the formation of elite units.

I expect that the majority of our Elite Units will be Artillery because they both earn the most and lose the least XP, but i dont think most more heritaged Elite regiments will be artillery, even if its just because there is less space for artillery elite traits.

I can think about, faster movement, faster setting up, longer range, even more damage... even more wounding against armoured dwarves? and boni for surrounding regiments of course

 

[BeRzErKeR]

Based on the descriptions so far I would expect Arnese elite regiments in the army of the ancien regime to have been elven cuirassiers.

 

[The Laurent]

Another thing that we can't see but probably has to happen is prestige units, as in units where every single elite troop is stuffed, or Veteran, or whatever else. There's probably at least a few Hobgoblin units like that, constantly fighting against the tide of attrition...

 

[Pyrelight]

Is it actually possible for a non-artillery unit to gain meaningful xp?

It looked like they can get up to regular and keep it with regular rated replacements, but anything beyond that immediately vanishes; gain xp and become professional, take losses from a volley or two, lose the xp and level from regular replacements. Looks like 1 xp per 10 replacements? So unless a unit takes no damage at all any gains will be wiped out.

Not sure where higher-level units would come from, unless maybe by pilfering veterans from one damaged but experienced unit to bring another up to full strength.

 

[The Laurent]

Is it actually possible for a non-artillery unit to gain meaningful xp?

It looked like they can get up to regular and keep it with regular rated replacements, but anything beyond that immediately vanishes; gain xp and become professional, take losses from a volley or two, lose the xp and level from regular replacements. Looks like 1 xp per 10 replacements? So unless a unit takes no damage at all any gains will be wiped out.

Not sure where higher-level units would come from, unless maybe by pilfering veterans from one damaged but experienced unit to bring another up to full strength.

Click to shrink...

It's very possible. The reason we lost so much is that we had only Trained replacements, if we'd had even regular Replacements we would have had several units remain Professional. Because it wasn't regular replacements that fucked us, but Trained replacements... and, like, yeah? If you replace a third of a unit with troops two levels below, that's gonna fuck you.

 

[NSchwerte]

It's very possible. The reason we lost so much is that we had only Trained replacements, if we'd had even regular Replacements we would have had several units remain Professional.

Click to shrink...

no we wouldnt. Having trained or regular replacement makes no difference when it comes to keeping troops proffessional, you need proffessional replacement to stop xp bleeding (and these proffessional replacement must come from some other proffessional veteran regiment or be very well trained at home)

 

[The Laurent]

no we wouldnt. Having trained or regular replacement makes no difference when it comes to keeping troops proffessional, you need proffessional replacement to stop xp bleeding (and these proffessional replacement must come from some other proffessional veteran regiment or be very well trained at home)

Click to shrink...

Hmm, fair enough. I will say that mechanically, @Photomajig , it'd make sense if XP loss had some correspondence to how 'outclassed' the replacement troops are.

 

[Red Rationalist]

Is it actually possible for a non-artillery unit to gain meaningful xp?

It looked like they can get up to regular and keep it with regular rated replacements, but anything beyond that immediately vanishes; gain xp and become professional, take losses from a volley or two, lose the xp and level from regular replacements. Looks like 1 xp per 10 replacements? So unless a unit takes no damage at all any gains will be wiped out.

Click to shrink...

Yes, it is. There are two major ways to do that:
1) Keep your elite units in reserve until the heavy fighting is over, and use them only when the enemy line is about to broken. Basically put them into situation where they attack a lot, but don't suffer many attacks. This does have drawbacks, but also allows you to keep a critical advantage trough the campaign.
2) Accumulate a more experienced reserve. Remember, we get a trickle of more experienced units into our reserve every time a unit suffers casualties. This is pretty inefficient, but can help maintain a small number of elite units out a larger pool. I could also think of moves like forming a new units out of trained manpower, letting them participate in battles to raise XP and disbanding them plus replacing them with trained manpower. For most races, this would mean keeping regiments for 5 battles in reserve and then disbanding them.

 

[NSchwerte]

Gaining xp mostly depends on the type of fighting a unit is engaged in. Even elves would lose XP on average, while a long range shootout would give more xp than lose it unless the regiment is particularily unlucky.

Still, on average an attack is a net XP drain on the experience on the battlefield - if the attack kills more than 10 troops it deleted more XP than it added.

There is also the curios situation that Veteran regiments are more resistent to skill loss than less experienced ones. A proffessional unit can take 150 losses and fall back to trained(2 stages), a Veteran takes 150 and only falls back one stage to Experienced.

Important: Never form new units with experienced units unless they are artillery!

 

[Pyrelight]

In other words, never using them or cannibalizing other units to concentrate veterans in a handful of units, since if you're going to drop levels there's no reason not to.

Though: it does seem like the system is:
-1 per 10 replacements who are below the unit's level (not affected by how far below they are, beyond the bleeding stopping once down to the replacements' level)
+1 per 10 who are above

Makes me wonder if there's potential to like

• Get a human unit up to professional (but also depleted to 800 men or smth)
• Form half a dozen new human regiments
• Break up the veterans and sprinkle them out in packets of 80-100 so the newbies instantly get enough xp from it to become Regular and then Professional

Presumably followed by an emergency rules patch possibly in the form of a nice man from the Inspector General asking what we're playing at that's gotten 800 soldiers promoted to Sergent-Chef in an afternoon.


I do get the whole thing of experienced troops losing their edge after a bad battle and replacements, but if you need to fight to get xp and lose more than you gain from losses unless extremely lucky or never fighting enemies who can shoot back...
Maybe if there was a campaign action to train troops? Possibly only working up to a certain level, or only working to 'recoup' lost xp - needing time for the rookies to be brought up to speed so they're not causing confusion in the ranks.

 

[The Laurent]

Though to be fair here, most soldiers in an army should be Regular, because that's... Regular?

 

[NSchwerte]

Presumably followed by an emergency rules patch possibly in the form of a nice man from the Inspector General asking what we're playing at that's gotten 800 soldiers promoted to Sergent-Chef in an afternoon.

Click to shrink...

Having small amounts of veterans form the backbone of a newbie regiment is common practice, so I don't think that would neccessarily be a problem (beyond being too good at what it does).

That's what Klebers 41st Hobs had been in Saintonge, with a core of more experienced troops raising the trained troops to a regular regiment.

Its a phenomenon of XP being part of the regiment instead of soldier - an Elite Soldier of the Kings 1st Peasant Crushers dying loses as much XP for their regiment as conscript Hallfing #582619 for their regiment just about lifted into regular status

 

[Valerian]

Or, and hear me out.

Don't worry about refilling regiments back to max troops after every battle.

A number of veteran units after long campaigns in history finished those campaigns well under strength and only bothered reinforcing up to full once the war or campaign was concluded.

 

[Pinniped]

Hmm, fair enough. I will say that mechanically, @Photomajig , it'd make sense if XP loss had some correspondence to how 'outclassed' the replacement troops are.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I agree. Currently it does feel like units lose experience a bit too easily, given that I struggle to see how a non-artillery unit could get to the higher ranks unless we specifically put a lot of time and effort into maximising their xp gain. Historically, there were some mechanisms that kept elite units at a higher level of professionalism than other units: they got the best recruits, with the highest potential, and the fact that being part of an elite regiment was viewed as an honour improved morale and had even green troops fighting more bravely.

One thing that I think would be great would be if we had more control over the replenishment process. That would allow us to replenish elite troops with experienced troops from other regiments, rather than filling them with fresh reserve troops. For example, in the latest case after Brutet:

72nd Hum recovers 27 Casualties. 72nd Hum improves to Professional from XP (7/10, Professional). 72nd Hum takes on 40 Regular Replacements (-4 XP, halved to -2 XP).
148th Hum recovers 114 Casualties. 148th Hum improves to Professional from XP (6/10, Professional). 148th Hum takes on 81 Regular Replacements (-7 XP to Regular, then 0 XP loss) and 89 Trained Replacements (-5 XP to Trained, then 0 XP loss). 148th Hum degrades to Trained (2/3, Trained).

Click to shrink...

I think we could actually have kept the 148th Regular rather than trained by taking some trained replacements into the 72th Hum instead? In this case, the 72nd took on replacement first, leaving less Regular replacements left for the 148th. It might have been more optimal to distribute the Trained replenishments differently between the two, especially since the 72nd CO is a Teacher.

However, I do see a problem if we are allowed to shuffle troops between regiments with impunity: the Teacher trait would become overpowered, since it would apply to all regiments of the same Race as the Teacher. This is because we could always Replenish the Teacher regiment first, then use troops from that regiment to replenish others, then take troops from reserve into the Teacher's regiment again, and so on...

 

[Shine]

However, I do see a problem if we are allowed to shuffle troops between regiments with impunity: the Teacher trait would become overpowered, since it would apply to all regiments of the same Race as the Teacher.

Click to shrink...

In fairness, that does sound exactly like what a teacher *should* be doing.

 

[Pyrelight]

Another approach might be to switch the 1/10 thing. If it were a point per 15 or 20 replacements or smth instead that would slow both losses and gains from replacements.
But also break the tens place consistency with morale mechanics.

 

[NSchwerte]

However, I do see a problem if we are allowed to shuffle troops between regiments with impunity: the Teacher trait would become overpowered, since it would apply to all regiments of the same Race as the Teacher. This is because we could always Replenish the Teacher regiment first, then use troops from that regiment to replenish others, then take troops from reserve into the Teacher's regiment again, and so on...

Click to shrink...

I dont think this would be a great problem. You could simply rule it that the teacher only actually teaches after a march or battle and if troops are taken out of the regiments before that they revert to their pre unit xp.

Another approach might be to switch the 1/10 thing. If it were a point per 15 or 20 replacements or smth instead that would slow both losses and gains from replacements.
But also break the tens place consistency with morale mechanics.

Click to shrink...

If you were to change the 1/10 thing, it may be better to change it to a system where each soldier contributes a portion of a units experience - so if a unit has 10 experience it would lose 1 experience every 100 dead, if it has 50 experience it loses 1 experience every 20 dead and vice versa with replacements. Though that would complicate the simple system currently in place and probably require decimal XP?

It does need to be kept in mind that the larger the span per xp is the more regimented it is. If its 1 xp lost per 20 soldiers dead, losing 22 soldiers and 37 soldiers both lose 2 xp, but losing 42 loses 3 xp

Or, and hear me out.

Don't worry about refilling regiments back to max troops after every battle.

A number of veteran units after long campaigns in history finished those campaigns well under strength and only bothered reinforcing up to full once the war or campaign was concluded.

Click to shrink...

Possible, though keep in mind that veteran troops will be stronger filled up with trained replacments than smaller because of the size malus.

It may be worth it for some regular and proffessional human regiments where the replacement would reduce them by multiple stages

 

[Pyrelight]

I dont think this would be a great problem. You could simply rule it that the teacher only actually teaches after a march or battle and if troops are taken out of the regiments before that they revert to their pre unit xp.



If you were to change the 1/10 thing, it may be better to change it to a system where each soldier contributes a portion of a units experience - so if a unit has 10 experience it would lose 1 experience every 100 dead, if it has 50 experience it loses 1 experience every 20 dead and vice versa with replacements. Though that would complicate the simple system currently in place and probably require decimal XP?

It does need to be kept in mind that the larger the span per xp is the more regimented it is. If its 1 xp lost per 20 soldiers dead, losing 22 soldiers and 37 soldiers both lose 2 xp, but losing 42 loses 3 xp

Click to shrink...

True, but tbh that wouldn't be too out of keeping with other mechanics.
Ex. Morale losses being per-hit when a unit that gets hammered could have another 2-3 morale worth of total casualties that got rounded down and not counted.

 

[Photomajig]

@Photomajig what is the difference between a Golden and Silver Realm? Is there also a general information on the continents of the setting?

I love this quest and what you do. The world you've crafted is interesting

Click to shrink...

The Golden Realms claim to carry the heritage of Atalante, the mythical first civilization of elvenkind. Their founding figures are supposedly refugees from there who brought with them divine favor and wisdom. Silver Realms are lesser "civilized" states, which generally remain in the orbit of the Golden Realms.

The status of a Golden Realm is bestowed upon a country (or rather its ruling line) by the Church. The decision has to be unanimous by the Collegium of the Church. There have been cases non-recognized claimants, such as the now-fallen Kingdom of Illyria, which claimed Atalantean kingship but failed to persuade the Church of its claim. Officially, the legitimate Golden Realms have existed continuously since their founding... but several have suffered periods where they existed mostly on paper only, so it's iffy in practice.

Hmm, fair enough. I will say that mechanically, @Photomajig , it'd make sense if XP loss had some correspondence to how 'outclassed' the replacement troops are.

Click to shrink...

Though: it does seem like the system is:
-1 per 10 replacements who are below the unit's level (not affected by how far below they are, beyond the bleeding stopping once down to the replacements' level)
+1 per 10 who are above

Click to shrink...

Yeah. If you have a Professional Unit and replenish it with Regulars, it'll lose XP until it degrades to Regular, at which point it no longer loses XP from the remaining Replacements. So there is usually a limit to how far you fall.

One thing that I think would be great would be if we had more control over the replenishment process. That would allow us to replenish elite troops with experienced troops from other regiments, rather than filling them with fresh reserve troops. For example, in the latest case after Brutet:

Click to shrink...

The replenishment process is kind of complicated to run as is, so I'm not looking to add more by micromanaging every unit there. Sorry.

Another approach might be to switch the 1/10 thing. If it were a point per 15 or 20 replacements or smth instead that would slow both losses and gains from replacements.
But also break the tens place consistency with morale mechanics.

Click to shrink...

I am considering this change, yeah.

That said, to the discussion in general - it is supposed to be hard to maintain experienced units! Perhaps not this hard, but hard. So while I might tweak the numbers, the principle is working as intended. Napoleon's Imperial Guard was often kept in reserve and safe until the critical moment.

 

[natruska]

Historically, yeah, elite units did not become elite by fighting often. Frontline units might get quite good but they were not the Old Guard - a Guard has to be assembled by plucking out veterans who've already seen battle.

Considering that we're just one general (tho already quite successful), I don't think it'd make much sense for us to have the granular control of replenishment necessary to construct an elite regiment. That kind of organizational reform and anointing of The Chosen is really the domain of ministers and sovereigns, not generals. Maybe we should write a letter to the assembly asking when we're gonna get a Republican Guard

 

[The Laurent]

Historically, yeah, elite units did not become elite by fighting often. Frontline units might get quite good but they were not the Old Guard - a Guard has to be assembled by plucking out veterans who've already seen battle.

Considering that we're just one general (tho already quite successful), I don't think it'd make much sense for us to have the granular control of replenishment necessary to construct an elite regiment. That kind of organizational reform and anointing of The Chosen is really the domain of ministers and sovereigns, not generals. Maybe we should write a letter to the assembly asking when we're gonna get a Republican Guard

Click to shrink...

They should guard all legislators, with a dagger at the ready to kill them the moment they propose un-Republican activity. /s