An Extra Primarch

Should the Quest switch to a Narrative Base?

  • Yes, it will streamline things.

    Votes: 345 40.5%
  • No, I prefer the current system.

    Votes: 127 14.9%
  • Yes, but not until the Crusade begins/Prologue ends.

    Votes: 379 44.5%

  • Total voters
    851
Okay, our scientists officially have too much time on their hands, they've created some kind of crazy fungus super-beer that somehow contains more than a hundred percent alcohol.

...And now I'm imagining bands of Orks trying to either buy it off of us, or steal the recipe for themselves. I'm also now imagining packs of good ole' boys going on non-sanctioned Ork hunting trips as they try and find some more, *Ahem* supplies. Drinking games, fraternity rituals, dear lord, what have we unleashed upon the galaxy?
 
Hm, the wiki says that the Milky Way has 100-400 billion stars. Let's say that the systems without outstanding problems (like black holes), by which I mean planets that could be adjusted with Crystals or purely mundane terraforming/anti-radiation techology, would average 1 human-held world per star. That would mean 1X10e23 humans. More than enough to dominate the Warp and fuel a human pantheon. About 10 Sextillion, to be specific, even assuming the average human world held a single trillion. While we waited out the deaths of the red dwarfs, we could begin the construction of Ringworlds, which we could begin moving the population into as the larger stars started to burn themselves out and/or blow up.

Black holes aren't problematic - they're the absolute best place for a high tech civilization since they offer the most efficient means of converting mass to energy (also, black holes have enormous stores of energy in their rotation).

fasquardon
 
Okay, our scientists officially have too much time on their hands, they've created some kind of crazy fungus super-beer that somehow contains more than a hundred percent alcohol.

...And now I'm imagining bands of Orks trying to either buy it off of us, or steal the recipe for themselves. I'm also now imagining packs of good ole' boys going on non-sanctioned Ork hunting trips as they try and find some more, *Ahem* supplies. Drinking games, fraternity rituals, dear lord, what have we unleashed upon the galaxy?
Technically, the Orks already have one of the three most important bits given that they used Ork Spores instead of yeast. The other two bits are psionically infused barley and a still with a tesseract in it. They've got Weirdboyz that can make the barley so all they need is the fourth dimensional still.
Black holes aren't problematic - they're the absolute best place for a high tech civilization since they offer the most efficient means of converting mass to energy (also, black holes have enormous stores of energy in their rotation).
Truth. Have you seen Isaac Arthur's videos on black hole civilizations?
 
Hm, do you think a Primarch could survive an extended period of time totally cut off from the Warp? I mean, they'd probably have a Negative Trait that cut 25-50% of their Checks off from the results, but Blanks don't cause instant death by themselves.

Hm, do other dimensions necessarily lack the warp, or do they simply lack a warp that is both utilized and riled up in the way it is in 40k? Personally, if I were sending a Primarch to another dimension, I would assume there was a local warp and I would further assume that this local warp would affect the Primarch and the Primarch would affect the local warp.

Cutting 25-50% off their checks and also imposing big consequences on them for their actions (since a universe with a relatively placid warp would be very open to being shaped by this invader).

But you could have different effects. For example, in Babylon 5, one could treat hyperspace as a walled-off section of that universe's warp that was filled with Vorlon technology structuring it. Thirdspace, then, would be a deeper level of that warp. So a Primarch in the B5 universe might have a bonus to actions that were "orderly" and a penalty to "disorderly" actions due to how hyperspace was shaped by the Vorlon technology, and might risk the 3rd space aliens invading if they use the warp too much or attempt to reprogram the Vorlon tech.

They were all, at some point, highly religious. The counter-arguement writes itself.

Not to mention Rome, Persia, the Mughal empire and the Chinese empire - all of which were durable empires in which religion played a key role in the health of those societies.

And interestingly, the hight of "civilization" (at least as I define it, which may be my own biases showing) in any given region tends to coincide with a local time of high religious diversity.

Truth. Have you seen Isaac Arthur's videos on black hole civilizations?

I have indeed. Though I think he focuses too much on such civilizations quintillions of years in the future - we know of no way yet in which a civilization could operate with enough energy efficiency to make black holes useful in such deep time. His black hole starships episode is more applicable to our case, and we know for sure that high-energy black hole machines would work with what we know today.

Not to mention that from our perspective the farther away something is the faster it's moving away from us since all the space between us is expanding at the same rate so even if that for some reason caps at the speed of c that's the same speed gravity propagates so it'll never actually get there. Well, we'd still have to dispose of all the helium to keep the galaxy from collapsing into a black hole as we keep adding mass. But the universe won't collapse so we can just run away if that starts happening.

Since all energy curves space time a little, creating any amount of free energy (energy that wasn't in the universe at the big bang) would slow the universe's expansion. Obviously, make enough free stuff and the universe starts to collapse inwards, likely with dire consequences to human life, since it is unlikely that entropy would work in the way it does currently if the universe were collapsing. Very likely, we will need destruction/annihilation crystals to balance things out.

fasquardon
 
Since all energy curves space time a little, creating any amount of free energy (energy that wasn't in the universe at the big bang) would slow the universe's expansion. Obviously, make enough free stuff and the universe starts to collapse inwards, likely with dire consequences to human life, since it is unlikely that entropy would work in the way it does currently if the universe were collapsing. Very likely, we will need destruction/annihilation crystals to balance things out.
But isn't there a possibility of that happening anyway? Currently the expansion of the Universe is motivated by Dark Energy, but what happens as time goes on is anyone's guess. Heat Death and the Big Rip are both definitely the end of the Universe. Big Crunch on the other hand, is also a beginning. Maybe it would be better to try and promote that process and then try and be like the Precursors or Galactus and pull through to a new Universe?
 
But isn't there a possibility of that happening anyway? Currently the expansion of the Universe is motivated by Dark Energy, but what happens as time goes on is anyone's guess. Heat Death and the Big Rip are both definitely the end of the Universe. Big Crunch on the other hand, is also a beginning. Maybe it would be better to try and promote that process and then try and be like the Precursors or Galactus and pull through to a new Universe?
Long term plan let's be the Old Ones.
 
Long term plan let's be the Old Ones.
Old Ones are actually younger and less advanced. They were among the first species (besides the gaseous and radically different C'Tan), which may have put them at some billions of years old given how the Universe itself is ~20 billion. In comparison, the Precursors were either nearing the end of Big Crunch, or were at Heat Death and artificially stimulated Big Crunch intentionally. Regardless, their history goes back for ~100 Billion years. They were quite a bit older than the Old Ones, and had an actually fully Inter-Galactic (as in multiple galaxies, not across one) society. On the other hand, Galactus is from Marvel. They've got some funny ideas of scale over there, as well as physics, but the basic jist works. He found a means to protect himself from the destructive end of the Universe and just kind of waited out in space while the Big Bang happened again.

Both of these aren't feasible any time soon of course, but its fun to speculate. Like where all the energy in the Warp is coming from for one? Does it have any impact on the larger/local universe? How does thermodynamics fit in? Are the Materium and Immaterium the only quantum fields (those energy fields I talked about earlier) not in a Vacuum State (lowest energy/flat)? Is it possible to raise the energy levels of other fields? What could we do with that?

This is all a bunch of really advanced stuff of course, but researching and understanding the nature of the Sea of Souls and the Higgs field (Materium) may answer those questions. At which point the wacky-ness of the Warp is truly the tip of the Ice Burg. That is all going to be at least T5+ understanding of course, but it may give our good QM some...ideas.
 
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A little bit of a call back to an earlier topic but it's possible that I was wrong about the gravity not having time to reach the rest of the universe. There's a new paper out about how the universe might not be expanding at all.
 
But isn't there a possibility of that happening anyway? Currently the expansion of the Universe is motivated by Dark Energy, but what happens as time goes on is anyone's guess. Heat Death and the Big Rip are both definitely the end of the Universe. Big Crunch on the other hand, is also a beginning. Maybe it would be better to try and promote that process and then try and be like the Precursors or Galactus and pull through to a new Universe?

Even if there were no dark energy, the universe doesn't have enough mass to pull itself into a crunch.

And in a big crunch, the crunch itself may be a beginning, the problem is, the billions of years the universe spends falling in on itself may be rather inhospitable to life.

Of course, it's hard to know for sure unless we could engineer a crunching up of the universe, which is a hard experiment to run, even for Primarchs.

given how the Universe itself is ~20 billion

13.8 billion years. We have a very good idea of exactly how old the universe is. Or at least, the observable universe.

Like where all the energy in the Warp is coming from for one? Does it have any impact on the larger/local universe?

Is energy actually coming from it in net? Or is there a balanced flux of energy from the materium to the warp and from the warp to the materium?

As you say, something to research. The answer to this will be very important to the quest, if Serras ever starts influencing things on the intergalactic scale (though if our QM is stubborn enough to keep going after galactic conquest, I shall be very surprised).

fasquardon
 
Three words, self destruct button. Makes looting anything not possible. That and black boxing the hell out of the thing as well.

Won't work, Orks make things go faster by painting them red and turn out functional plasma weapons from children's toys and used soda cans. What you really should be hoping is that ilbgar123 decides that the schematics for an Orky version either doesn't exist in their racial memory or is locked behind a DRM.
 
Won't work, Orks make things go faster by painting them red and turn out functional plasma weapons from children's toys and used soda cans. What you really should be hoping is that ilbgar123 decides that the schematics for an Orky version either doesn't exist in their racial memory or is locked behind a DRM.
That's stuff from early 1st/2nd Edition fluff. Or 'The Beast Set Loose' in Red Flags quest. Not in later Editions.

Orks actually build fully functional (if very shoddy) tech which they infuse with Waagh energy to help it function better.

Thankfully the 'make a gun out of a soda can and brass casings' and 'believing hard enough' madness was retconed and nerfed respectively.

Otherwise we'd be fucked...worse than otherwise.
 
Well, Krorks could do that it they absolutely had to, but regular Orks couldn't. They'd have to at least make a pretense of having a functioning gun. Having the trigger mechanism ass-backwards, if the rest of the gun is perfectly functional, can be gotten around. Having a toy gun, not so much.
 
Yeah, read back a bit farther where the other talk on surviving the end of the Universe was. Entering a dead Universe and using its...stability sounds nice but there are a couple problems. First of course is getting there. Second though is making sure crystals work. Since crystals are Warp dependent, they get their energy from unknown means. We don't know if a given universe can support the Warp as we know it, or how finite/recyclable it's energy supply is. Hence how we really need to learn about the underlying mechanics of Quantum fields and how we can control them. Besides, when it comes down to it, there's still a chance of Vacuum Collapse happening on it's own randomly. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not real fond of the idea of a c speed wave reality-destroying energy swallowing up the Universe and forcing a Big Crunch. And the simple fact is, a Vacuum Collapse can happen for any field, any tensor, at any time, though the odds of a random occurrence are beyond astronomically low. Even if we were to find some way to move data-patterns and egos from one tensor to another (Ascension Ho!), the same could still technically happen there. On the other hand, being to manipulate tensors is basically outright changing the laws of physics. So that's cool.

As for earlier concers about the C'Tan...Souls are basically just patterns of data on the Warp field right? And any sort of interaction with them is basically adding or removing data to their pattern? So, what's to stop Serras from developing a pattern maker of Warp stuff? There already exists technology designed to directly interact with the Warp. Tearing it, calming it, separating it, etc. Why not stimulating it just so emulate a soul pattern? Or even just part of such a pattern?

I would also like to remind people that the Milky Way is still a very big, and mostly unknown space. In present days the lack of consistency and distortion makes travel difficult enough, and probably makes some parts of the Galaxy inaccessible except through real space. And even in the distant past at the hieght of the Old Ones, not all space was known. The C'Tan completely escaped their notice after all. It may be that there are still other proto-C'Tan out there, or worse, should we choose to explore beyond Human space (which will probably take a while). Or things might come to us.
 
Yeah, read back a bit farther where the other talk on surviving the end of the Universe was. Entering a dead Universe and using its...stability sounds nice but there are a couple problems. First of course is getting there. Second though is making sure crystals work. Since crystals are Warp dependent, they get their energy from unknown means. We don't know if a given universe can support the Warp as we know it, or how finite/recyclable it's energy supply is. Hence how we really need to learn about the underlying mechanics of Quantum fields and how we can control them. Besides, when it comes down to it, there's still a chance of Vacuum Collapse happening on it's own randomly. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not real fond of the idea of a c speed wave reality-destroying energy swallowing up the Universe and forcing a Big Crunch. And the simple fact is, a Vacuum Collapse can happen for any field, any tensor, at any time, though the odds of a random occurrence are beyond astronomically low. Even if we were to find some way to move data-patterns and egos from one tensor to another (Ascension Ho!), the same could still technically happen there. On the other hand, being to manipulate tensors is basically outright changing the laws of physics. So that's cool.

The Crystals are augmented by the Warp. 10% of their output is ex nihilo. Creating something from nothing shouldn't be any more difficult in a universe that's expanded to the point of heat death. Creation, Energy, and Matter Crystals should make it possible to make planet's worth of material from nothing in fairly short order, at least on the scale of such a universe's total age, even at a tenth of their Warhammer capacity.
 
I would also like to remind people that the Milky Way is still a very big, and mostly unknown space. In present days the lack of consistency and distortion makes travel difficult enough, and probably makes some parts of the Galaxy inaccessible except through real space. And even in the distant past at the hieght of the Old Ones, not all space was known. The C'Tan completely escaped their notice after all. It may be that there are still other proto-C'Tan out there, or worse, should we choose to explore beyond Human space (which will probably take a while). Or things might come to us.

Heck, there's whatever horrors wait in the ghoul stars.

Also, I really love how much we discuss hard science in this thread. Serras is made of wibbly space magic, is giving birth to a magic crystal god and we're busy talking quantum field theory and star lifting.

The Crystals are augmented by the Warp. 10% of their output is ex nihilo. Creating something from nothing shouldn't be any more difficult in a universe that's expanded to the point of heat death. Creation, Energy, and Matter Crystals should make it possible to make planet's worth of material from nothing in fairly short order, at least on the scale of such a universe's total age, even at a tenth of their Warhammer capacity.

Wait... Does that mean we could create a crystal of warp that would create a warp in a warp-less universe?

Or, closer to home, what about making new calm areas of primordial immaterium like the one the Old Ones grew up in?

fasquardon
 
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Heck, there's whatever horrors wait in the ghoul stars.

Also, I really love how much we discuss hard science in this thread. Serras is made of wibbly space magic, is giving birth to a magic crystal god and we're busy talking quantum field theory and star lifting.

Wait... Does that mean we could create a crystal of warp that would create a warp in a warp-less universe?

Or, closer to home, what about making new calm areas of primordial immaterium like the one the Old Ones grew up in?

fasquardon

You know, I actually had this scenario in mind where a probe goes through a portal to a dead universe, and ends up on a White Dwarf so ancient it's mass and therefore gravity has decayed to a mere ten times that of Earth, low enough to not instantly crush the probe, sending back views of a nearby, though very dim, shining light that is determined to be Hawking radiation. This is considered perfect, as nothing could possibly have survived this sort of entropy without ex nihilo energy creation, which would have prevented exactly this sort of decay, and Creation, Energy, and Matter Crystals/Runes are made and shipped over, with Warp Crystals used to begin the process or Warhammer-forming the other universe by creating the Warp, only for it to be determined that the Warp actually already existed there, it had simply calmed from absolutely nothing happening (at least on the time scale of the life of the average star) at any point within the last few billion years, so it closely resembled what the Old Ones were working with when they first arose.
 
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