Age of Strife
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Just keep talking with them, you'll figure out a strategy eventually (1.4x)
[X] Just keep talking with them (1.1x)
[X] Just keep talking with them (1.1x)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The C is something of an abstract unit of money, not used by most people in daily exchanges, but it amounts to about 1/10th the value an unskilled labourer produces in a year. I chose that value so that I could get a fair amount of granularity without also tacking on lots of unnecessary zeroes. 1C would thus be equivalent to about... $1500 to $3000 purchasing power.
The Machine Heads are called that because of their use of mechs, with their flag being a stylized black robot head on a white background.
This is their national anthem (no its not)
@Academia Nut - can a settlement get larger than 20 space, if so what research is required to max out its' size?
It won't be necessary in any case. We can set them up like kings at first, and then slip addictive substances into them until they're willing to voluntarily trade everything except slave gruel and 20 hour workdays for just one more hit.
We don't have time to play the long game anymore. We have cut bait so often that there is none left. The chances are way too high that when The Authority shows up we're going to need to get everybody under the same roof at any cost in order to avoid being subjugated in detail. Right now we probably have the best position and influence for that that we ever will. Grave Keeper's "Not arrows, but quivers" line and suggestion that the new players like totalitarian subjugation lend support to those conclusions. If the two are feeling threatened or angry at each other they are even more likely to let The Authority exploit them in unwise deals to get an edge over the other. The Authority could play any local conflict into an arms race where everybody on all sides buys everything from The Authority and The Authority ending up owning their children's fillings while having a built in "off" switch for everybody's economies and militaries.
We are probably going to need a united front very soon, so let's unite everybody on our terms while we are still in a position to dictate terms.
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So, as a thought...what about doing a joint project for Plasma Physics 2? It is one of the highest RP research project before us, it flows from completing the Industrial Plasma Reactor project, completing it should yield more power per plant for everyone (we know that we're being inefficient, we're just not sure how to improve), it should tie up proportionally more of their academics than ours, and the longer we can cooperate peacefully on a project the smoother integration should be. I can see the 504s agreeing to it, so really it's a question if the Dragonflies will buck the trend or not.
I know that there are some people that don't want to see too much cooperation research-wise with the other factions. With the Dragonflies it's a question of later social dominance, but with the 504s it's a mite trickier. It's a question of total strength versus comparative strength, really, and if we are going to be facing whatever boogieman out-techs us out there we want to reduce the gap we're behind in as much as possible. Pooling our resources like this helps us do that, and while I'd be leery about something like "hey, let's all make better guns!", pure science seems both more peaceful (not that it can't be militarized, of course, but it's easier to turn to helpful ends like "how do we get more juice out of these reactors" than "So we made this gun. Think that it'll help our agricultural output?") and should unlock goodies for us to pursue later.
...now I want our ambassadors to dress like Merlin and act like barmy old coots. Probably with some party tricks, while I'm thinking of it. Someone tell me this is a bad idea and we should discourage it.
@Academia Nut Do we have any idea how many academics and artisans the other factions have? How many did either side contribute towards the power plant project, and do we have any idea of how good they were at their jobs?
I know that there are some people that don't want to see too much cooperation research-wise with the other factions. With the Dragonflies it's a question of later social dominance, but with the 504s it's a mite trickier. It's a question of total strength versus comparative strength, really, and if we are going to be facing whatever boogieman out-techs us out there we want to reduce the gap we're behind in as much as possible. Pooling our resources like this helps us do that, and while I'd be leery about something like "hey, let's all make better guns!", pure science seems both more peaceful (not that it can't be militarized, of course, but it's easier to turn to helpful ends like "how do we get more juice out of these reactors" than "So we made this gun. Think that it'll help our agricultural output?") and should unlock goodies for us to pursue later.
...now I want our ambassadors to dress like Merlin and act like barmy old coots. Probably with some party tricks, while I'm thinking of it. Someone tell me this is a bad idea and we should discourage it.
@Academia Nut Do we have any idea how many academics and artisans the other factions have? How many did either side contribute towards the power plant project, and do we have any idea of how good they were at their jobs?
- Location
- Austrlia
Nah, just our daughters.
A pair of little girls, with fake beards, saying "We are sa- sutal!, and quick!" Then they look at each other, and suddenly realise, "And Angry!" nod, 'hmph!'
- Location
- Cyberspace
So... ummm... how, exactly, do you proposed to absorb either faction and dominate them, let alone both?
While we're perhaps the most military potent of the three, we also lack numbers to do much conquering. We're defensively safe, to be honest - neither faction will attempt to conquer us, particularly as they know they'll lose a lot... and there's their enemy waiting for them to weaken.
We win the long game - our tech advancement speed (more then how far ahead we are), our UAM access, our lack of bleeding manpower and industry into ongoing conflicts and our ability to play one off of the other more or less ensures it. But we can't grab the others in the short term.
No they're not. No they're not. No they're not.
You're not the Ebon Dragon; you don't 'win' by having everyone worse off then you, or by trying to make sure nobody but you moves ahead. You win by being further ahead then everyone else. You don't need to try and embody your SV title with every plan.
Now, are joint research projects good? No. It all depends on how much benefit we get from a project and how much the others do.
Plasma Physics II... not sure.
We get an expensive tech almost for free (in terms of cost to our existing research capacity) (plus). We can't then trade it to our neighbors for lots of stuff - but then, they don't have very much left tech-wise that we actually want (a wash). It improves the efficiency of our power generation, which we can definitely use (plus). It makes it easier for the 504s to remedy their own power production problems* (minus). It offers more power to the Dragonflies (minor minus). It unlocks access to other technology for us (plus). It unlocks access to other technology for our neighbors (minus). All factions will be better prepared for a new player (plus). Our neighbors might get in the habit of cooperating with each other, although unlikely (minor minus). It might hold off open conflict, although probably wouldn't do anything for covert maneuvers (a wash).
There's quite a lot of benefit there, but there's also some downsides. So the question is - how much can be ablate those, and will the final result be good enough to go for?
The power generation usefulness of Plasma Physics II requires infrastructure - some benefit with existing power plants is likely, but to really take advantage you probably need to rebuild the things to a greater or lesser extent. In regards to the 504s, if we have some way to cripple that power infrastructure, then Plasma Physics II doesn't help them at all in this respect (ditto the Dragonflies, although their need is far lesser). Our neighbors haven't demonstrated much 'high tech' research capabilities on their own so far - we have the native materials stuff and the Dragonflies' field guns, for example.
However, there's an alternative. We did a three-way joint research project for the reactors. What if we did joint research projects (separate ones) with each faction? They don't like working with one another, after all. For example, what about a joint project on Plasma Physics II with the Dragonflies, while a joint project on, say, Underground Production with the 504s?
A benefit of this is that each side has another reason to not involve us in their conflict (their joint research project). And, of course, we gain two technologies while each gains one.
That said, I would want some other benefit from such joint projects - such as a well-established "scientist-stealing" network**. Both of our neighbors, while they find applicable technology valuable, consider military force and the like to be far more important; having some scientists and their families emigrate might very well slide under their radar. And, to be honest, most of the techs on our list are either stuff we don't want our neighbors (military tech) to have or stuff that's not too urgent (like plasma physics).
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On a tangential note, what does everyone else think about using espionage networks among the 504s and Dragonflies (particularly the latter) to find disgruntled artisans and academics and coax them (families too, perhaps) into sneaking into our own polity? It'd help us increase our artisan and academic numbers while lessening the 504s and Dragonflies' ability to do research and some of the more refined industrial tasks.
* I'd note that they *aren't* needing it for some super-weapon that would allow them to dominate us, but to keep the lights on.
** Or, hosting the projects in our own territory - perhaps in Glenshade Manor, to keep it a bit apart from the mainstay of our facilities - so their researchers and engineers are easy to access. Then, just wait for war to break out (or nudge it a bit) and "magnaminously" offer the artisans and academics from both factions shelter "for the duration" ("we're just keeping your educated elite safe, honest!"), letting those who really want to go back home, of course. It being hosted in our territory will also allow us to show off the nice comforts of living in our own polity as opposed to the less pleasant conditions elsewhere...
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- Location
- Cyberspace
Indeed.
We want to be the sole organized power in the region. Towards that end there are four known obstacles: The 504s, the new players, the Machine Heads and the Dragonflies (in approximate order of greatest obstacle to least obstacle).
Dangers: I believe we're relatively safe from being wiped out. Our military power is potent even if our numbers are small, there's less ideological impetus on either of our current neighbors to attack us, we haven't been expansionistic, and our settlement is pretty well defended. There's a question mark of the new players, but we're still going to be the thorniest of the established three to deal with. Could the 504s or Dragonflies be an actual threat to us? Probably not for several years at a minimum, even if they were to target us. Their chief worries are one another; an attack on us risks us allying with the other, and will leave them open for an invasion in turn - a force sieging Greengraft isn't going to be in position to intercept and attack through Shattersaw. The new player is, as mentioned before, a question mark - but is likely equally a threat to all three of the local factions; or, as I like to think of it, Greengraft and a couple of meatshields.
Conquest: We are not capable of conquest of either of the local groups - we just don't have the numbers to suppress a population. Such a move might also make us look like an easier target to the third group; no sense in provoking that hunger. Because of our diplomatic position, such as it is, the other two parties are unlikely to have such a fear about us...
Diplomatic Domination: While we can play the waiting game, we're unlikely to get the 504s folded into our polity; the Dragonflies, while we've got an in on the highest levels of their nobility, will take significant amount of time to take over in this fashion. Just as unlikely as conquest to succeed, really.
Which leaves, well, gaining from both sides while letting them fight it out. The current truce hasn't been bad - we've gained salvage and some technology - but I don't expect (or want) it to last much longer. Each side has had a couple years to rearm and plan, so they're both prepared to start up the meat grinders in Shattersaw again.
I would like to coax them into making covert attacks on weak points - the 504s, while having power problems (which is a target of sabotage) have domestic problems, and their association structure offers easy fracture points under stress. The sudden death of an entire association, for example, is going to leave a lot of nearby ones twitchy - and likely wondering if one of their fellows is responsible. Meanwhile, the Dragonfly vulnerabilities are at the top - the nobles are a natural target for the 504s (especially now that there was an attempt on the 504 leader to inspire them), and without those nobles the Dragonflies lack cohesive identity. But, in a pinch, them spending men and material in a straightfoward conflict will do to keep them from becoming a danger through growth and stabilization.
However, I also want us to be able to take further advantage of each side during the conflict; joint research projects are one way, of course, but there are liable to be others. War creates chaos, and chaos creates refugees looking for some place safer - if we can offer that safety, we can work on losing one of our major disadvantages... numbers. Give us numbers (Runaway serfs, janissaries' widows and so on) and a generation for the kids to grow up and join the militia, and we can go a-conquering.
But all of that requires some solid espionage ability to really exploit. So getting that domestic infrastructure (and the foreign 'tentacles') going should probably be the top priority of our next couple years.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Patently untrue, now that we have a barracks in our hands if we rapidly expand our trained soldiers we can easily conquer the 504's the Dragonflies hate the 504's with a vengeance as well. They also know it's merely a waiting game until the Dragonflies and us merge due to the dynastic marriage.
Therefore they have much less reason to attack us if we crush the 504's militarily.
- Location
- Cyberspace
No, we don't have the numbers in our population. Our soldiers don't come out of nowhere. And our artisans and academics draw from the same pool.
Yeah, we flat out don't have the population to do it, however many soldiers we have. We're the smallest group numerically in terms of mobilizable manpower. A big chunk of our population are academics and artisans, which is what gives us the tech lead, and we're disproportionately widows and children due to the Dragonflies 'donation'.
We're great at uptech, and in terms of troop quality, now that we have a mech and a ton of SAWs, nobody can win a fight. But they don't have to win fights because we simply can't occupy enough ground.
We're great at uptech, and in terms of troop quality, now that we have a mech and a ton of SAWs, nobody can win a fight. But they don't have to win fights because we simply can't occupy enough ground.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I love how categorically you state this, it's not like we have any idea about the actual amount of ground we need to cover. Our 'chunks' of population that are academics and artisans is likewise actually pretty damned small.
349 Prisoners
2179 Labourers (839/989 militia; 889 Hardened Gendarmes)
260 Artisans
147 Academics
110/110 Soldiers
15% of Greengraft is academics and Artisans, not including prisoners in the total population numbers.
1115 Labourers (200/200 Militia; 200 Hardened Gendarmes)
165 artisans
84 academics
10 soldiers (Supplies: 10)
18% of Glenshade manor are specialists.
If we build more Mechs we can afford to shift a lot more labourers to being soldiers.
Now I don't recall us ever getting exact population numbers for the other factions but you do not need even close to parity in soldiers to population to occupy territory.
For reference 1-2 % of their population in soldiers would be enough to occupy their territory considering the massive advantage we have in terms of weaponry. As the vast majority of their people aren't going to be any better than labourers or semi trained militia.
I'm very sceptical that the 504's have 50k+ in people.
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We don't even know how far their territories stretch.
- Location
- Pilipinas
they border the Machine Heads, maybe we can ask Reena on how many settlements the 504 occupy?
For the 504s, we have a hint since they're butting up against the Machine Heads, though that's only one side of them. We know they're so spread out that they can't power everything, and is big enough to make rolling blackouts practical. With the mechs and their forestry experience, they can also expand quietly into the wilderness.
We don't really know anything about the Dragonflies except that they're somehow generating enough widows to give us a steady population gain, implying intensive fighting with scattered groups down their side..
We don't really know anything about the Dragonflies except that they're somehow generating enough widows to give us a steady population gain, implying intensive fighting with scattered groups down their side..
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A few points of perspective here, for all the talk of conquest... no one seems to be thinking about holding land after its taken. For instance, a third city is currently being integrated. They may not know it yet, but they are about to bea colony. Integrating them will be a thing. You can't go full conquest or your going to lose ground at home. A certain portion of the military will be used up with each base taken over. You also have to make EQ for all those prespective soldiers. That takes up a military action and income. The question of how much of your willing to have sitting around in the barracks unused at any given point. So the real issue is in order to attack you need to getenough troops to hold ground in your current 2+1 locals... how much do you need to take the nearest 504 base and hold it against the reprisal strikes without making things a reinactment of Stalingrad.
Taking the Dragonflies out requires a few things:
1. Keeping your line of succession intact.
2. Keeping pretenders from splitting Dragonfly territory.
3. Dealing with the Janisaries an theNobel infestation.
Basically, this is a matter of intrege, diplomacy, and then military. Their only major enimies are the 504s and maybe random bandit groups they are feeding off of.
The 504s on the other hand require a different tactic.
1. We now know their grand project is actually collapsing infrastructure. Specifically power infrastructure. Which is what all their resources from the Admin dig are going towards.
2. Once they strengthen their position they will go after the Machineheads again.
3. The reason they are going after MH is that they are a democracy that is apparently 504 without huge amounts less creepy and crazy.
4. This means we actively want the MH and the 504s to get into a bloody slugfest in the one city the MH can actually hit, but not enough to make it so we can't take the MHs.
5 . This mean we need either:
A) a blatant Causus Belli once they are all in on the MH front that doesn't make us get scummy reputation.
B) To have 504s want to come under our wing willingly.
To pull that off we are going to need to get as many hardcore protocultists to die in the meatgrinder as possible. We are going to need the MH forces stronge enough to keep the stalemate going... preferably without them getting a base of it. We have a view of the MH faction from the street level. They may or may not be as sane as advertised.
In short we need the inteligence agency built and working.
We need enough troops in reserve to pull off our plans.
We have a bunch of abandonded base we can eventually expand into around Amethist Gardens.
Researching material science so we can build more structures should be higher up the list for those expansions though. Armor tech benifits as well.
Research suggetion, for fighting the 504s:
-Calatropes or barbed wire equivalents to counter the 504s charge tactics. Hidable and rapidly deployable are good here.
Taking the Dragonflies out requires a few things:
1. Keeping your line of succession intact.
2. Keeping pretenders from splitting Dragonfly territory.
3. Dealing with the Janisaries an theNobel infestation.
Basically, this is a matter of intrege, diplomacy, and then military. Their only major enimies are the 504s and maybe random bandit groups they are feeding off of.
The 504s on the other hand require a different tactic.
1. We now know their grand project is actually collapsing infrastructure. Specifically power infrastructure. Which is what all their resources from the Admin dig are going towards.
2. Once they strengthen their position they will go after the Machineheads again.
3. The reason they are going after MH is that they are a democracy that is apparently 504 without huge amounts less creepy and crazy.
4. This means we actively want the MH and the 504s to get into a bloody slugfest in the one city the MH can actually hit, but not enough to make it so we can't take the MHs.
5 . This mean we need either:
A) a blatant Causus Belli once they are all in on the MH front that doesn't make us get scummy reputation.
B) To have 504s want to come under our wing willingly.
To pull that off we are going to need to get as many hardcore protocultists to die in the meatgrinder as possible. We are going to need the MH forces stronge enough to keep the stalemate going... preferably without them getting a base of it. We have a view of the MH faction from the street level. They may or may not be as sane as advertised.
In short we need the inteligence agency built and working.
We need enough troops in reserve to pull off our plans.
We have a bunch of abandonded base we can eventually expand into around Amethist Gardens.
Researching material science so we can build more structures should be higher up the list for those expansions though. Armor tech benifits as well.
Research suggetion, for fighting the 504s:
-Calatropes or barbed wire equivalents to counter the 504s charge tactics. Hidable and rapidly deployable are good here.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The problem is, everyone who says we can't possibly conquer either one of them, is that we *have* to. Once the Administrator and the like get here, it'd be trivially easy for them to pick a faction other than us, give them goodies, and then they fight and beat us. We're operating under time constraints right now, and I see no good or sane way to magically make the 504s and Dragonflies entirely resistant to the temptations they could very likely bring.
I mean, that's irrelevent if instead they come to conquer with military force, but that's the easiest and the hardest thing to deal with, and depending on the situation we'll either stand no chance or a decent one.
But I just think that everyone who has been advocating, turn after turn, some sort of slow, minor hegemony, you know, established sometime two or three decades by now, needs to at least look again at our position.
I mean, that's irrelevent if instead they come to conquer with military force, but that's the easiest and the hardest thing to deal with, and depending on the situation we'll either stand no chance or a decent one.
But I just think that everyone who has been advocating, turn after turn, some sort of slow, minor hegemony, you know, established sometime two or three decades by now, needs to at least look again at our position.
I recommend that we dig really deep into the 504 and infiltrate their secret police. once we do that we get in touch with the machine heads and the dragonflies and using a combination of the destabilize 504 chose and diplomacy we take the 504 out of the equation; hopefully without damaging our reputation. Also I been voting for the shattersaw confederacy option whenever it came up and we hade nothing more pressing to deal with, now that we need to unify the area I hope that if it comes up again that other people will vote for it as well.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
We either start using our hard power or we will be destroyed when the players make them selves known.
Some people don't want to think about this though so we're likely screwed.
*shrug*
Unless of course, we have ties to and act as the stronger mediators for every vaguely influential faction in our area.
Force projection is an issue, even for their large tech advantage. If we go the conquest route we're actually less able to respond to a superior external force than if we leveraged local manpower with our technology to have both quantity and quality on par.
You need all three of tech, production and population to fight. As far as we know the guys up in space have tech, but no population and limited production. We currently have tech, some population and some production. War would bolster production, but tie up population, especially assimilated members of other factions, who'd rise up if they find weakness or opportunity.
On of the big reasons why we're developing so well is that we're secure internally, unlike the 504s and Dragonflies, who must constantly manufacture ways to keep their assimilated population cooperative.
Force projection is an issue, even for their large tech advantage. If we go the conquest route we're actually less able to respond to a superior external force than if we leveraged local manpower with our technology to have both quantity and quality on par.
You need all three of tech, production and population to fight. As far as we know the guys up in space have tech, but no population and limited production. We currently have tech, some population and some production. War would bolster production, but tie up population, especially assimilated members of other factions, who'd rise up if they find weakness or opportunity.
On of the big reasons why we're developing so well is that we're secure internally, unlike the 504s and Dragonflies, who must constantly manufacture ways to keep their assimilated population cooperative.
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