The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."

Fireiy said:

No, what he wants is said very plainly right here. He actively wants their blood and scolding him for it seems to me to be a guaranteed way to piss him off.

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On the other hand, all the options about how Dorne IS going to be conquered are just so much blustering, and they will come to bite us back in the ass later when, frankly, Dorne isn't subjugated that way.

[X] [Tarly] "Whatever the terms, Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust?"
[X] [Tarly] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval) "Make no mistake, this is a conquest of Dorne, a submission of Sunspear to the Iron Throne. They will bow and they will bend. Or I will break them. "
[X] [Tarly] "I have final say on the terms of the marriage and I will not accept a deal I find too lenient to Dorne."
[X] [Tarly] Write-in (Subject to QM Approval) "Make no mistake, this is a conquest of Dorne, a submission of Sunspear to the Iron Throne. Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust? What type of knight i would be then? You taught me to be better than just a simple brute in armor."
[X] [Tarly] "Any other man could try to rule in my stead, but Prince Qoren would never receive enough support from the lords of the realm to do so. I will be a stronger queen through this match."
[X] [Tarly] "Make no mistake, this is a conquest of Dorne, a submission of Sunspear to the Iron Throne. Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust? What type of knight i would be then? You taught me to be better than just a simple brute in armor."

[X] [Alicent] "You are dear to me, both as a friend and a lover. I wish for us to be together forevermore, no matter what form our relationship should take. So, please. Have faith in me, that I have fought for our love, and shall continue to do so."
[X] [Alicent] "You have a place in my heart and that will never change. I will fight to keep you by my side."
[X] [Alicent] "You are my dearest friend, no matter what happens with our relationship that will hold true and I will always be there for you."
[X] [Alicent] "I cannot claim i know what the future holds for us, but right here and right now you have a very special place in my heart, and i don't see that changing anytime soon. This is not just me "having fun", as your brother might think, i consider our relathionship something serious and i will fight to keep you by my side Alicent."

Aproval voting.

Here's where things currently stand

[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."

[X] [Alicent] [Defiant] Tell her you will speak to her father and work out a deal to keep her by your side as long as she wishes.

Two votes away from arguing to Tarly on the basis of the knightly honor his culture idolizes rather than an
argument of bloodlines he seems indifferent to. If you haven't voted yet, or are considering changing yours, you could be the deciding factor.

i'm really not sure how the whole "conquering Dorne through my blood" thing is going to come across to him.
he explicitly wants to put them down through violence, both as revenge and because he doesn't believe they would actually willingly submit without it.

is there an angle i'm missing?

[X] [Tarly] "Whatever the terms, Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust?"


Whoops forgot to actually vote

Husr said:

Two votes away from arguing to Tarly on the basis of the knightly honor he idolizes rather than an
argument of bloodlines he seems indifferent to. If you haven't voted yet, or are considering changing yours, you could be the deciding factor.

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Does he seem indifferent to argument of bloodlines, actually? Raylon mentioned that Qoren wants to put one of his children on the Iron Throne. He has also insisted that the only way to conquer Dorne properly is with fire and steel, to make them kneel in the burning sands, rather than accept their terms now; I'm not sure he's actually interested in extending any chivalric notions in their direction?

Husr said:

Two votes away from arguing to Tarly on the basis of the knightly honor he idolizes rather than an
argument of bloodlines he seems indifferent to. If you haven't voted yet, or are considering changing yours, you could be the deciding factor.

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Tarly doesn't idolize knightly honor. Read the Vale chapters again; he's all about how we'll have to crack heads to cement our rule. Redfort and Hightower were the idealists.

[X] [Tarly] "Whatever the terms, Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust?"

Somic said:

Does he seem indifferent to argument of bloodlines, actually? Raylon mentioned that Qoren wants to put one of his children on the Iron Throne. He has also insisted that the only way to conquer Dorne properly is with fire and steel, to make them kneel in the burning sands, rather than accept their terms now; I'm not sure he's actually interested in extending any chivalric notions in their direction?

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As it stands now, the honor or lack thereof hasn't come up in relation to Dorne. That's why I think it could be more promising, actually presenting an argument that hasn't occured to him rather than retreading one he's already rejected.

Teen Spirit said:

"Prince Qoren has his charm... but I do think you overstate his hand. I believe he may be in a tougher situation then you realize."

"I really don't see how," he said bluntly. "He came because he saw a chance to secure Dorne's position in the Stepstones and put one of his children on the Iron Throne."

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Cracking the heads of shitheads in the Vale isn't at all the same thing as serving steel and fire to a defeated enemy on their knees before you.

Magnos III said:

Aproval voting.

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Well, at that point, it's more negative voting
But of course, that's a valid strategy as well.

[X] [Tarly] "Whatever the terms, Dorne yielded. Would you have me cut down a defeated, yielding enemy out of sheer bloodlust?"
[X] [Tarly] "Dorne will be pacified by the strap."

[X] [Alicent] [Defiant] Tell her you will speak to her father and work out a deal to keep her by your side as long as she wishes.

Voters should keep in mind what our goal actually is with Tarly here. We're not going to get him to change his mind about Dorne or Dornishmen, or about how warriors should prefer battles over tourneys, or about how warrior monarchs need to break some heads from time to time to secure their rules. Some of his beliefs aren't even wrong, at least within our cultural context. Our goal here is to shore up his wavering loyalty, to make him understand that he's not wasted his time with us.

Husr said:

Cracking the heads of shitheads in the Vale isn't at all the same thing as serving steel and fire to a defeated enemy on their knees before you.

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That's the thing, he doesn't believe that they're on their knees. He thinks Dorne will not yield properly unless humbled. That's his point!

Zimmerwald1915 said:

Our goal here is to shore up his wavering loyalty, to make him understand that he's not wasted his time with us.

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And, honestly, it might not be possible to keep his unwavering loyalty and marry Dorne into the realm. Hopefully this conversation pacifies Tarly, at least for a while (whichever result wins, at least we're noticing and trying to deal with his issues with the plan). But if it goes poorly, I do think it's worth starting to consider which is more desirable between him and Dorne in the long run.

Somic said:

That's the thing, he doesn't believe that they're on their knees. He thinks Dorne will not yield properly unless humbled. That's his point!

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I mean yeah, that's why my preferred vote was the whole "they'll bow and bend or I'll break them". But seeing as the only two in contention now are knighthood and bloodlines, I think the former is far more likely to be meaningful to him, rather than half-Dornish children inheriting Dorne and riding dragons.

Husr said:

But if it goes poorly, I do think it's worth starting to consider which is more desirable between him and Dorne too.

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This is honestly the most hilarious part of the whole feudal setup to me whenever it comes up (not directed at you, just in general) - that the fates of so many unrelated people can be decided by personal drama between people who happened to be born to the right parents

Anyway, since I've spent some time now arguing against the option I voted for without changing my vote: I don't actually think it's going to find much understanding with Raylon. He's most likely just going to say "yes, yes you should cut them down!". What it actually does that I like is present Rhaenyra's chivalric ideals as a driving force for her decisions, in a way that will hopefully not make Raylon deeply disappointed.

[X] [Alicent] "You are dear to me, both as a friend and a lover. I wish for us to be together forevermore, no matter what form our relationship should take. So, please. Have faith in me, that I have fought for our love, and shall continue to do so."
[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."

Husr said:

I mean yeah, that's why my preferred vote was the whole "they'll bow and bend or I'll break them".

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Which just would not have happened. Which in turn would have caused an even greater loyalty backlash from Tarly in time. Really, those two write-in options would IMO be the absolutely worst options.

You guys fail to consider that a lot of people in the thread don't really wanna conquer Dorne, so presenting Tarly a stance that either Qoren gives us good marriage terms or we obliterate Dorne, would put us in a very awkward position if we don't like marriage terms offered.

[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."

[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."

[X] [Alicent] [Defiant] Tell her you will speak to her father and work out a deal to keep her by your side as long as she wishes.
[X] [Tarly] "My children will rule Dorne in time and they will be Dragons. Through blood, Dorne will be conquered."