1: And as I pointed out, that difference makes best of two better than the best of one with higher mod. Superpowers can make you better at your job, this should not be a surprise.

2: There is no need to stack them, unlike in your Seer Gwen proposal. Eldar seer handles everything but military, strategist Gwen handles military.

3: It seems pretty well in hand considering we have all of the resources we need to do it and explicit QM confirmation that we can recruit an eldar seer. A level 25 farseer - thats the diviner strategist option from the eldar - would take multiple boons and not be fully subordinate to Vita, so strategist gwrn is the easier path to an optimal crew.

4. I don't see any time limit, do you? I disagree about the potency, by the way. The big attraction, nat 1 protection on all rolls, comes at level 10 anyways so that's easy to reach, and protection for critical non mil rolls is had immediately. Slow growth isn't a problem.

5. It's never obsolete, that's absolutely silly. The questmaster has repeatedly said that both classes are supposed to be viable, don't downplay that. But now we can have both classes if we just make Gwen the strategist.

And what other jobs? Neablis's last word on alternative jobs an elder could have if seer was off the table was that we could have a non-crew liason who could show up in some scenes.

We don't get an extra crew slot because you decide to use one on a common military commander - literally common, that was your argument as for why we could count on getting one.

But neablis has been clear that not all crew candidates are created equal. If you want a GOOD strategist, you will have to search harder than that. If you settle for less, you get less.

You've been comparing two crew members to one crew member this whole time to argue that Gwen being a strategist is unnecessary.

This was always a biased comparison. And now that we have confirmation that we can get a seer from the eldar, it is an irrelevant comparison.

Strategist Gwen + Eldar Seer is on the menu.
1. It is better for some things. Not for avoiding the lower tail of results (excluding nat 1s).
2. To about the same effect as seer gwen helping a regular strategist, but with fewer perks and a lower bonus.
3. We don't need a stretegist diviner if we have a diviner already, for one; for another, the level 25 was for the really high powered ones. Neablis spoke of one path being 9 levels; so a level 10 could be beginning on their path. And as I said we could get a beginner and train them... if we really want a diviner strategist; once we have a seer the diviner strategist is saving us one or two roll covers every three turns in lieu of having other perks.
4. The time limit is bad things happening and us not having the best resources. If levelling up to 10 and 20 for the multi protection and reflex protection takes longer than normal, we'll be at turn 80 or 100 by then. And by then the diviner strategist will have given us some value, but not nearly as much as a seer who can do what they do almost as well plus a lot of other things.
5. They are both viable! One is better in the short term then falls off. If we were gearing up for fighting a WAAAGH right now I'd go for strategist gwen no doubt. She's the stronger option for the next 10~15 turns. I'm just saying that if we were to pick seer gwen then a strategist diviner would be less powerful than one with another skillset, since they could lean on Gwen for divination.

Perhaps someone with a talent for ambushes, or asymmetrical warfare, or officer education.
 
The way I see it, a generalist seer will help us with so many things that could start being beneficial immediately and which a strategist will never be able to assist with on top of being able to help with all the same things a strategist would, if not as well.

Do we want to maximize our chances of making our machine spirits immune to chaos without the dice screwing us over the way they did when we tried to make ourselves immune to scrap-code and potentially either proving that actually that's just impossible or accidentally unleashing a possessed droid army or both? Have a seer backup the research rolls.

How about making sure that none of the brain implant research we're doing to develop the sanity modules that will be a game changer for psykers goes badly? Take a glance at the future before we start cutting people's heads open and installing things that mess with the thoughts inside.

Do you want to maximize our odds of actually being able to get the self-repairing psy-shielding amulets that are going to win us an amazing alliance with the craftworlds? Have a seer backup the research and diplomacy rolls because that's at least four chances for a bad roll to screw everything up.

Are you worried that our necrons might come to life and/or send out a signal summoning a tomb fleet when we start scanning them? Good thing a seer can minimize the odds of that.

Would you like to be as confident as possible that the first AI we build is built properly and doesn't decide to rebel, get possessed, immediately think itself to death, take a look at the state of the galaxy and develop depression, or just turn out to be an idiot? Better double check with the seer before we turn it on.

Would you like to avoid a war with the same people who won the one in heaven? That'd be a diplomacy action if ever there was one, and guess what a strategist won't help with?

Would you like to form an alliance against the ruinous powers and tyranids between the eldar, necrons, and space marines? Well the odds aren't great but a seer can still roughly double them.
 
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To counter: Do you want to get the chance to actually try those things? Well we need to survive the many threats incoming. Besides, if we do go seer then a lot of that bonus is going to be stuck on military anyway.

If you legitimately think we can't survive and thrive without a precognitive strategist then were you just reading the quest to watch the collapse up until the random dice rolls gave us the opportunity for one?
 
To counter: Do you want to get the chance to actually try those things? Well we need to survive the many threats incoming. Besides, if we do go seer then a lot of that bonus is going to be stuck on military anyway.

to counter: rolls are narrative based,aka a nat 100 is ''best possible scenario given your preparations" and nat 1 ''worst outcome given current preparations",so a nat 1 without psiquic protection was "stuff gets corrupted'' but after psy shields was "your psy shields get somewhat depleted" wich was just a minor chore to fix

if we invest in military assets the impact of bad rolls are massively lessed as result to the point nat 1's are not game overs but a speed bump
and the generalist seer helps us a lot there

negating nat 1's is nice and all but is not the end all be,and i think getting BO2 rolls in research is gonna pay off more
 
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[X] Plan: And the Third Time it Stood!

I actually like this one more, researching more OMC seems like a bit of a waste and honestly id prefer denvan warships not having just 1 guy running the entire thing.

[X][Gwendolyn] Seer
The Galaxy is permanently ravaged by war, good commanders are a lot easier to come by than stable diviners.
Approval:
[X] Plan: Nova cannons go boom. Boonhunting edition. Warp comms and Navibean alternative.
 
[X] Plan: Nova cannons go boom. Boonhunting edition. Warp comms and Navibean alternative.
[X][Gwendolyn] Seer
 
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I both thematicly prefer gwen going down the path she finds interesting, and feel like we need the millitary competence she will bring to the table in the medium to long term more than we need the general bonuses from her being a seer.
I am also a fan of decanting the bean, full speed towards Vita's upcoming mom arc.

[x] [Gwendolyn] Strategist
[x] Plan: Nova cannons go boom. Boonhunting edition. Warp comms and Navibean alternative.
 
Now that we are deeper in the vote I'm paring down to just one plan.

[X] Plan: Nova cannons go boom. Boonhunting edition.

At the end of the day, I want to finish intelligence coding.

[X][Gwendolyn] Seer
 
You know... If we do build the strategy school and pick strategist Gwen the sensible thing is to send her to it as a student.

We should also attend as a professor. We have a lot of insight even if we are not a dedicated strategist.
 
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[X][Gwendolyn] Seer

Having said that if we go down the Strategist route we should monofocus and not try to diversify because that leads to jack of all trades syndrome.
 
I wonder if we could build simulators for the navel academy. It makes sense something like that would be possible with the tech we have. People are piloting ships via implant. All you would need is an implant connection that hooks up to a computer running a simulation rather than a ship.
 
1. It is better for some things. Not for avoiding the lower tail of results (excluding nat 1s).
2. To about the same effect as seer gwen helping a regular strategist, but with fewer perks and a lower bonus.
You've made other points, but these two are so egregiously wrong that I feel I should address them in their own post first.

First, regarding number 2.... there you go, comparing two crew members to one crew member. This remains an absurd and irrelevant comparison. If our seer is helping our strategist, then they're not improving a different roll. If our strategist is ALSO a seer, they apply their own reroll with bonus to both sides of the Bo2.

1. ...Nope! Just, no, this is wrong. I used anyDice to make a table of level 10 Strategist-Gwen versus a Man of Iron, their chances for every individual roll result.

Then, I tried to do that for level 10 Seer - but had trouble, because anydice only shows two decimal places so the lowest results got really wonky, especially when I had to manually calculate out the probability space for what happens when your man of iron rolls a 1, since that overrides mod and would kick it over to Seer!Gwen's 1d100.

Also, for Team Strategist (Strategist Gwen + Eldar Farseer), I made the farseer level 7 instead of level 10 to simulate lower growth, and assumed their strength as a diviner is identical to seer gwen otherwise. Both of these are assumptions in your favor - eldar are more psychically powerful than humans, and the eldar seer would start at level 4 while gwen started at level 0, and we don't know that the eldar seer will grow slower in the first place.

And also in the same mechanics spitball Neablis said that he might make eldar level slower, he said that they would also have higher flat bonuses.
Eldar in general might need some rejiggering as far as the system works, I might give them higher flat bonuses but they level slower or something. Don't hold me to that.
So I'm literally just taking the downside without the upside here from it, just to give your preferred picks a better advantage.

Also in your favor for the team fight, there is no attempt to compensate for how AnyDice does not make a nat100 override the mod, except in the calculation for nat100 chance itself - by accepting your premise that the thing Neablis said he MIGHT do (make eldar grow slower), I've put myself at a handicap!

You know, besides the handicap of assuming that the eldar seer who is trained to work with other diviners including on strategy will somehow not be able to work with Gwen on strategy.

Let's see how they do! Winners in bold.

BracketTestCriteriaStrategist GwenMan of IronTeam StrategistTeam Seer
Failureroll <= 15Lower is better
0.25
1​
0.06
0.16428571​
>= Poor Successroll > 15Higher is better
99.75
99​
99.89​
100.625714*
>= Successroll > 35Higher is better
93.75
85​
97.34
95.24​
>= Good Successroll > 65Higher is better
69.75
55​
78.35
70.64​
>= Crit Successroll > 90Higher is better
36
30​
38.33
36.39​
= nat 100nat roll = 100Higher is better
1.99
1​
2.97
1.99​
MoI-exclusivesroll >110Higher is better010010

*The team calcs got weird because anydice only gave me 2 decimal points of precision for putting together my probability space table. Team Seer obviously does not have an above 100% chance of rolling a poor success or better. Ergo, the last two columns have a small margin of error, save for the nat 100 and Man of Iron-exclusives, which were calculated differently.

So, uh, yeah. That's a fucking blow-out. Nevermind apples to applies comparisons, Team Seer is never more than 2 percentage points better than Strategist Gwen on her own.

And remember - team seer will sometimes have the seer be used on something other than the military roll, so it would default back to our ideal super-strategist, a literal Man of Iron AI, who is smoked in every possible category except the 10% corner case where he rolls above 110... but anything above a modded 100 roll that isn't a nat100 is a marginal improvement to the actual narrative outcome.

And you're not advocating for getting an ideal non-diviner strategist. You're arguing for picking up a common strategist, because that's your argument for why Team Seer was even valid to compare to strategist gwen in the first place: Because there are plenty of strategists in 40k so we can get one fast.

But if you want a strategist that is better than the competition's strategists, you have to try harder than that, and then we spend more time at the mercy of the dice for whether or not we lose territory, lose staff, lose Cia on a mission gone bad, or have our technology stolen - even if assigned to every military action we take, Neablis confirmed your seer cannot help us when WE are the ones being attacked until... you seem to estimate level 20.

On the matter of stats, there is no arguing this. Strategist Gwen + Eldar Seer is a superior load-out to Seer Gwen + an ideal non-diviner strategist. If I didn't lowball my picks and highball your picks, strategist gwen alone would just be outright superior to seer gwen + strategist monofocusing on military, in military!

A dedicated strategist can have other soft factors, this is true. But they are not enough to overcome our seer having to compensate for their weakness in direct military rolls instead of boosting the rest of our turn.

You would sacrifice the speed of our growth and our overall potential for... I'm not even sure what. Studying loot is more RP efficient than doing research without loot, and you get loot through military success. Our preparedness for future military conflict can be undermined by our technology being stolen, something consistent military successes are needed to stop. And if our seer is compensating for our normie strategist's failings, that seer isn't boosting our research and diplomacy. They can cover for the worst roll of multiple dice at level 10, but only one roll actually gets improved.

Why settle for something so mediocre?

Why do we want to settle for anything less than the best crew we can get again?

Just vote [X][Gwendolyn] Strategist - it is better in the short term by your admission, and is better in the long term too according to my stats.
 
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Would nova cannons be affected by the 'networked missiles' research or does their payload not count as missiles?
Probably not.

Networked missiles involves launching a large number of missiles, and have their guidance systems be aware of each other enough to optimize damage and avoid being destroyed.
Nova cannons just shoot one huge unguided projectile... There's very little guidance systems can do to a projectile going at a significant fraction of the speed of light.
 
[X] Plan: Nova cannons go boom. Boonhunting edition.
[X][Gwendolyn] Seer

Dear @Neablis and all, would these be balanced and eligible boons for us to have?
They aim to enhance our delegation abilities, improving our (somewhat taxed) action economy to enable more action diversity.
One of them is more narrative, with an eye to protecting our previous colonies & securing the Braxis Fall subsector:


-[ ] The Warp Comms Project: The largest R&D effort in Denvan story, geared towards solving interstellar communications.
--[ ] As a one-time boon, Denvans - under Anexa & using our samples - unlock ship-capable, ubiquitous Warp Comms tech.
--[ ] If pre-req techs have not been unlocked (Shards of resonant gemstone, Empathy at range...), a chance of them developing & sharing them in subsequent turns.
--[ ] Victan´s & Anexa´s unholy lovechild initiative?



-[ ] The Stellar Scouting Fleet
: An armada sails the void, protecting Stellar Ascendancy outposts & scouting the wider sector.
--[ ] The Denvans create an armada protecting & developing outposts we create (Vorthryn, Caldereth...) as their own home.
--[ ] The Denvans create Strategic depth around their territories - invasion fleets will be spotted several star systems away from inhabited planets, and counter-attacked, or, if un-manageable, reported to us in time for a preemptive strike.
--[ ] The Denvans engage in Strategic Scouting in the Braxis Fall subsector, as prep to take it as per @Prime 2.0 Zantri plan. See: Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest Mature - Sci-Fi


-[ ] The Steblin Doctrine: Soft Words and Big Sticks
: Denvan engineers have become apt at filling the gaps left in the ancient´s flighty weapon development efforts...with sense, sensibility and deadly airframes.
--[ ] Denvan R&D researchs the [Ship Design] and [Physics] research tree. The focus is on warship & weapons tech.
--[ ] A robust selection of OMC-controlled, Machine-Spirited ship blueprints across all ship sizes is shared with us.


-[ ] The Cogitare
Exploration Fleet: Cogitare ships now surround you like the Voidforge miners did - teachings repaid in kind.
--[ ] Every turn as a free action, you have a set of Research Points available to you. These can be specifically allocated to a likely follow-up tech for which you researched part of its prerequisites this turn, even if it has not been written yet.
--
[ ] The Voidforge miners & Cogitare fleet accompany yours after you go out of Denva.
--[ ] Every turn, as an additional free action, you have an additional set of Research Points to spend on Blueprints: We have not made as many blueprints as the excellent suggestions that popped in the thread, nor as the system allows. A free budget for these designs should encourage variant ships creation, and quickly expanding the rosters of the Denvans & our own fleet.
 
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