Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

They're free end of story, which is why you felt the need to argue about how specific examples of their bindings are gone.
In Both of the examples you gave were extunating and don't actually pervent them froom exerting their will later but also while i was looking things up.

I knew I got this shit from somewhere holy shit I just had it embedded in my brain meat
This before the fact that the Yozi are eternally sore losers incapable of the feats of creation they could perform before their imprisonment
The opening page of the infernal story section.
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Infernals Pg. 18 said:
Although they were beaten, broken, defeated and imprisoned, the Primordials-cum-Yozis were nonetheless impressed by the elegance and power of their conquerors. As soon as their damaged, deranged minds cleared enough of the hatred and self-pity that had first overwhelmed them, they sought a way to use that power for themselves. Such was their broken nature that they could no longer conceive of a way to build something new and better on their own. All they remained able to do was to change that which already existed to suit their needs.
Also said this before
The fetid corpses of the neverborn have no consent to give has no ability to deny them only really have the ability to do anything to them if they end up in oblivion itself. The game line goes out of its way to say that the neverborn are incapable of doing anything, the whispers that come from oblivion are nonsense incoherence. The only thing that is coherent is they want to be completely dead.
Backed up by this in their own book talking them up.... unable to stop ghosts from fucking on them.
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 22 said:
Too many ghosts relished their connections to Creation and jealously defended them. Every soul that fell into the Underworld destabilized the cycle of reincarnation—which was all to the good—but those willful souls banded together behind ever-stronger leaders to resist the spectres' depredations. They settled and spread throughout the Underworld, making it more like the Creation they remembered. Worse, when ghosts learned to contact the people they had left behind, they shored up and reinforced the fabric of Creation by affirming the efforts of the living.
This ugly trend culminated in a powerful regime led by a succession of schizophrenic dyads called the Dual Monarchy. These powerful entities built the fortress-city of Stygia around the mouth of the Abyss with the sole deluded purpose of keeping everything from falling into it. They even built a blasphemous pseudo-celestial calendar engine to impose a semblance of the passage of days and seasons on the heretofore-perfect stasis of the realm.
Seeing this in their dreams but unable to stop it, the Neverborn seethed and writhed in their tombs—but the geomantic barrier of Stygia prevented the Neverborn even from inflicting their storms of wrath on the Underworld. The Dual Monarchy organized armies of ghosts to drive the strongest spectres back to the Labyrinth and seal them inside.
Literally seething damn near coping.
As far as how much the ghost that were the deathlords actually needed to heed the Neverborn well
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 23 said:
The Neverborn also turned their attention to the spirits of their slain enemies. They shared much in common, the slain and their slaughtered murderers. Perhaps they could find a common interest. Not all the Primordials agreed, but five of them called out in their dreams to the ghosts of their fallen enemies.

Most of the dead Solars rebuffed the Neverborn's tentative contact. The youngest Exalts, as the ones least corrupted by centuries of absolute power, rejected temptation; or at least they remembered that the Neverborn were deadly, inhuman foes to ghosts and mortals alike. The oldest and proudest Exalts scoffed at the lingering souls of their enemies crawling to them like whipped curs hoping to placate their conquerors one last time. But some ghosts listened. Having spent centuries, even millennia, as the most powerful beings in Creation, this new existence as pitiful ghosts did not suit them. It couldn't suit them. They would do anything, anything, to regain their power and rule once more.

The Neverborn still required the destruction of Creation, so they could subside into the Abyss at last. They did not, therefore, insult their new potential collaborators with an offer of power to rule Creation. The Neverborn did offer power, but only the power to destroy Creation and plunge its ruins into the Underworld—and eventually into the Abyss. The key to their bargain was the word "eventually." If the empowered ghosts used their gifts to destroy and absorb Creation, they could rule whatever remained. The Neverborn would disappear immediately, but the Underworld would certainly follow more slowly. The Abyss would devour it in time, but for as long as it lasted, those who accepted the Neverborn's offer would become the lords of that dead world.
Literally begging for help .
Finally from the manual the chosen of the Void how much power either the dead primordials or the Fallen primordials had in creation without special operators
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 26 said:
Despite their power, the Yozis had little access to Creation. Granted, the Neverborn were equally cut off from Creation, but their powerful Deathlord servants were not. If those ghosts could somehow break the Jade Prison and capture the Solar Exaltations it held, the Demon Princes would teach the Neverborn how to alter and use them to empower mortal servants.
The Yozis stipulated only that the Neverborn reserve and relinquish 50 Solar Essences to the Demon Princes. The rest would belong to the Neverborn. As a show of good faith, the Yozis even released preliminary designs for an apparatus that could temporarily catch and hold an individual Solar Exaltation. The Neverborn commanded the Deathlords to open the Jade Prison and bring them the Solar Exaltations. Quickly! And the Deathlords set to work. For once, the Deathlords found the will of their dreaming masters expressed in utter clarity.
Literally the only time the Neverborn have a coherent command ever.

Finally on the freedom of the infernal and Abyssal exalted. For the Abyssals it the lack of these fucken things
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 27 said:
Abyssal Exaltation, however, does not work that way. Each Abyssal Exaltation is bound to its own Monstrance of Celestial Portion. If an Abyssal champion dies, her Exaltation returns not to Lytek's cabinet, but to its Monstrance and a Deathlord's jealous grip. The Deathlord, then, controls how an Abyssal Exaltation finds a new soul. Deathknights appear only at their new overlords' will and pleasure, which causes something of a problem.
Which completely fucks the ability of the never born to make Death Knights instead of Chosen of the Void through indoctrination and also deletes the kill switch.
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 35 said:
When a dying mortal takes the Last Breath, he gives up his name and destiny in exchange for power and immortality. The excruciating ecstasy of the Black Exaltation is only
the beginning of his transformation, though. He is not yet a deathknight. Before he can truly take on the finite mission to end Creation and the Underworld, he must undergo a
period of indoctrination and training. Most of the time, this probationary period helps the Deathlords weed out those weak or wavering Abyssal Exalts who would become liabilities to the Neverborn's cause.
And for the Infernals
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Infernals Pg. 22 said:
One aspect of the Exaltations that the Yozis could not safely overwrite is the Exaltation's imperative to move unseen and at speeds beyond thought to seek out mortals whose fates resonated with echoes of heroic destiny. The Yozis were able to hold the Exaltations while they worked on them, but they knew well that once they implanted them into their first generation of Infernal Exalts, they would lose control of those Exaltations if (rather, when) their first Green Sun Princes were struck down.
And finally from their own book for reasons they have free will and aren't slaves
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Infernals Pg. 27 said:
These two arguments did not completely alleviate Malfeas's worry that the Green Sun Princes would work some wretched treachery upon them all, but they did convince him to revoke his objections. She Who Lives in Her Name was not convinced, however, and the Ebon Dragon was forced to resort to his third argument. It made him uncomfortable to do so, for it was a painful reminder of their first failure in the Primordial War. When the war began, the Ebon Dragon reminded them, the Primordials had ordered the gods to force their Exalts to stand down and cease all hostilities. The gods rankled as they gave that order, but they had no choice. Yet the Exalted, the gods revealed, were free to do as they chose, and they chose to continue fighting.

The other Yozis remembered these events but did not see the significance. The Ebon Dragon revealed it to them. He had been examining the strictures of the surrender oaths the victorious gods and Exalts had forced upon the Yozis, and he had detected troubling clauses within them. It was possible, he warned them, to interpret those oaths in such a way that would allow the gods to do to the Yozis' slaves what the Creators had tried to do to the Exalted.

That is, the gods might be able to compel the Yozis to order any slaves they controlled to stand down and cease hostilities. The gods would have to phrase such an order almost impossibly specifically, and to even realize that they have this authority would require them to be at least as clever as the Ebon Dragon himself. As unlikely as that might seem, the possibility existed nonetheless. Therefore, he concluded, the Green Sun Princes
must retain their free will. If the gods could force the Yozis to order their generals to quit the battlefield, those generals must be able to refuse.

Taken together, these arguments finally convinced She Who Lives in Her Name that free will was a necessary—if distasteful—component of the Infernal Exalted psyche. For all that the Green Sun Princes retain free will, however, they are not exactly free to do whatever they want whenever they want to do it. The Yozis aren't fools, after all.
Last but not least at least in my mind take it or leave it it's not in the main section but the Storyteller sections
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Abyssals Pg. 226 said:
After all, Abyssals have the same inner spark of excellence as Solars, only turned toward darkness. The Neverborn understand the nature of Exaltation even less than the Incarnae do. Humanity, love and free will are notoriously hard to suppress. Despite all the extensive precautions and metaphysical chains the Deathlords wrap around their minions, when Oblivion finally comes to claim Creation, it just might find the power of its darkest champions arrayed against it.
Exalted 2nd Edition - Manual of Exalted Power - Infernals Pg. 213 said:
et, as the generals among the Slayers will tell you, a battle may be sacrificed if the war can be won. Despite their handicaps and the strong push toward vile deeds, the Green Sun Princes are free to choose their destiny, no matter how difficult the struggle. Unlike the akuma, the Green Sun Princes may choose to forsake their origins and blaze a heroic trail across the face of Creation, fanning the flames of the Solar spark within their Exaltations. Seeing the true nature of the Yozis—no longer caring about the world, but only interested in hurting it out of revenge—an Infernal may choose the side of the gods once again.

Though the Infernals are bound, their sense of history and their connection to both the Yozis and the gods affords the Green Sun Princes to a unique position—out of all of the Exalted, they have the best chance to permanently derail the eternal cycle of usurpation that began with the Primordial War.
 
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use

If people really don't want Evil Bob to be around even after we understood how much we need intel on Kemmler, that's fine, but some of the moral arguments for it are just wrong:

Yog he is literally the hyper evil negative half of a spirit who isn't even very nice to start with. He's complicit in an exhaustive list of possible crimes against everyone. He speaks in a funny german accent to emphasize that he is a literal nazi.

I'm pretty sure you need free will to be complicit in anything. Bob does not have it, all their morals and personality are imprinted by whoever owns the skull. Evil Bob is just what that construct was under Kemmler. All that being removed from the skull meant is that they couldn't be so easily reprogrammed anymore, not that they acquired free will.

Unlike evil Bob. L o v didn't start as apart of a good or very least neutral entity and rip itself out because that entity was not evil enough for it. And in fact seems to have walked back it's creation as a dread super weapon. Evil Bob chose to be evil Bob he ripped himself clean the fuck out of Bob because he wanted to be more actively evil.

This is a mischaracterization of events. Bob "chose" to create evil Bob in the first place, by partitioning his memories under Kemmler, effectively preserving the old personality imprint it had back then. And of course the recreated imprint "chose" to escape from anyone not like Kemmler, it was the nature it was (re)programmed with.

Neither Bobs had any choice in this, all the agency belongs to Kemmler nad Harry:
1) Kemmler for creating the original Evil Bob personality.
2) Harry for creating Bob with a personality that would "choose" to partition memories from itself, thus preserving Evil Bob as a separate entity (not really Harry's fault).
3) Harry for not listening to Bob's warning about touching those memories (kinda his fault).
 
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[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use

If people really don't want Evil Bob to be around even after we understood how much we need intel on Kemmler, that's fine, but some of the moral arguments for it are just wrong:



I'm pretty sure you need free will to be complicit in anything. Bob does not have it, all their morals and personality are imprinted by whoever owns the skull. Evil Bob is just what that construct was under Kemmler. All the being removed from the skull means is that they can't be so easily reprogrammed now, not that they acquired free will.



This is a mischaracterization of events. Bob "chose" to create evil Bob in the first place, by partitioning his memories under Kemmler, effectively preserving the old personality imprint it had back then. And of course the recreated imprint "chose" to escape from anyone not like Kemmler, it was the nature it was (re)programmed with.

Neither Bobs had any choice in this, all the agency belongs to Kemmler nad Harry:
Kemmler for creating the original Evil Bob personality.
Harry for creating Bob with a personality that would "choose" to partition memories from itself, thus preserving Evil Bob as a separate entity (not really Harry's fault).
Harry for not listening to Bob's warning (kinda his fault).
Well in my vote I didn't make a moral argument. I'm saying any information we could have gotten from him we have multiple hideouts of Kemmler full of his belongings to ask questions about that we know about already that we don't need to negotiate with hostile Nazi Spirit to get information out of.

There's literally no information he could give us that we could not get on our own with info we already have in a way that doesn't leave a Nazi Spirit full of murderous Ascension rituals, dark magic and active maliciousness for the universe alive.

There's also the fact that any information he would have would need to be leveraged out of him and I don't know at best that's going to be Spirit binding and possible enslavement at worst that's going to be prolonged Spirit torture.

As he's not going to tell us anything for reasons that are blatantly obvious and also we don't mean harm to everyone and everything that exists so he's not going to want to assist us in preventing that harm at all.

It just seems like there's no moral reason to keep him alive as he's literally a partition of memories and also actively evil not just passively evil or made for an evil reason but actively choosing to be evil and malicious to everyone. While there are many practical and ethical reasons to just remove him from the stage.
 
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I'm saying any information we could have gotten from him we have multiple hideouts of Kemmler full of his belongings to ask questions about that we know about already

Right now all that info we could get elsewhere is entirely hypothetical, both in its existence, value by itself and value as a Crown focus. And that's not even going into the time and number of actions it would take to acquire. Whereas we have what is basically Kemmler's personal laptop right here.

As he's not going to tell us anything for reasons that are blatantly obvious and also we don't mean harm to everyone and everything that exists so he's not going to want to assist us in preventing that harm at all.

Evil Bob is not "End all existence" aligned, he is aligned with the mentality of an evil wizard who sees evil as a tool for acquiring knowledge and power. If there is *anyone* who could browbeat him into subservience again its a knowledge-focused Infernal.

And by "subservience" I don't mean being allowed to run free, but more like "you give us that info, and your cell in Sanctuary will have access to library and databanks".
 
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Where can more cashes left behind by Kemmler still be found?

A dolmen in a forest somewhere in eastern Germany, marked as the crow flies, a red brick building in Zagreb with bars on its windows holding a collection of yellowing letters, they had been part of the 41st Zagreb Salon. Last of all a shipwreck off the coast of the Bahamas just within the bounds of one of the world's most famous triangles.




Discovered Locations of Kemlerite cashes: Rügen Island, Zagreb, The Caribbean Sea
Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 16/18 (Two Questions Asked)
Regained 2 Essence -> Now at 18/18 (Urge of the Forbidden)
Right now all that info we could get elsewhere is entirely hypothetical, both in its existence, value by itself and value as a Crown focus. And that's not even going into the time and number of actions it would take to acquire. Whereas we have what is basically Kemmler's personal laptop right here.
They were distinctly called out as caches of his one of them with letters by him mentioned directly a hideout in the Bermuda Triangle and a third place for symmetry I guess. Definitively the information we could get out of all of them is greater than the completely hypothetical information we could get out of evil Bob.
Evil Bob is not "End all existence" aligned, he is aligned with the mentality of an evil wizard who sees evil as a tool for acquiring knowledge and power. If there is *anyone* who could browbeat him into subservience again its a knowledge-focused Infernal.

And by "subservience" I don't mean being allowed to run free, but more like "you give us that info, and your cell in Sanctuary will have access to library and databanks".
You are correct that he's not a end existence aligned Evil wizard spirit but he was trying to instigate an international conflict using information from a corpse wired into the CIA when we decided to find him which I would consider pretty universally hostile.

There's also the fact that the corpse used was definitively defiled to have its brain fucked up so a copper wire could be run straight through it and it was a black vampire that he mutilated into that shape. I don't at all feel like I got him wrong when I said universally hostile.

Also evil memory partition Spirit of another entity I do understand there are mitigating circumstances for evil Bob's emergence but he is actively malicious to everyone that's alive right now that doesn't like living in a war-torn hell hole full of ascending dark Wizards trying to become deities considering he was actively assisting the Kemmlerites at the beginning of the quest.

The fact that his is a quest for information and not just being an asshole is rather not the point because being an asshole and getting Untold numbers of people killed is how he decides to get information.

Hypothetical information from this being is not worth the risk his existence and his active maliciousness poses. Though yet again this is an entirely value-based judgment based of what I've seen on him Behavior wise/ what I know about in story.

I do not believe there's a way to pry information from him in anyway that is faster than just walking to these static locations that we already know about that are directly called kemmlers and asking questions because they would all be his books his notes his letters his Hideout that we can all ask questions about him from. Just like the multiple pairs of shoes of people that we've asked questions of or the scenes that we've asked questions of.
 
The never-born didn't hijack any system though it was very specifically a limit track functionality that the great curse hooked into. The limit track was made to prevent the exalted from going insane from essentially memetic weaponry and in turn they would accrue limit and then when they reach their maximum they would go down one permanent willpower that could be regained. The great curse essentially allows for the complete accrual of limit without the reduction in willpower. It's also a patch that no longer exists the limit track is gone
They took the limit track system and perverted it as a revenge weapon against exalts. That is what I meant by hijack. That it's gone now doesn't change that these are beings who are among the most knowledgeable about how exaltions work, how to exploit them, and in general how the exalted operate.

Literally seething damn near coping.
Your own quote says that they were prevented from acting by a barrier, that implies a desire and capacity to act.

In the quest the thing we just interacted with was able to recognize an infernal, understand what that meant, proactively choose to be polite. We didn't get to look at the shards because they were slow, it chose to slow down time so we could see:
Like the shadow of great wings the silence shifts and the soul light of a thousand thousand eyes grows less, though each one is still open, watching and in the place where silence was there are whispers cold not with the dread of death but something deeper, a poisoned peace, the sense that soon all questions will be answered and all doubts stilled.

"Time... Time... Remember... Still there..."

The words are not spoken but form instead like cracks in the air inverted lightning etched with meaning. Vast black shapes like the bones of long dead leviathans carved into baroque black shapes rise from the water seeming to crawl out yet when you try to raise your hand to muster your will that too comes only slowly.

Lyda and Tiffany are frozen in place, Lamentations of the Void is frozen in place like a figure in an antique photograph as you realize the truth. The shapes in the water aren't moving slowly, but with unearthly speed it's your perception of time that is slowed as a...

"Courtesy... Servant of... Our Kin"

Like me yet not. Instinctively you reach out, to know, the single burning question that has been with you all this time, a single question screamed into silence: "What are you?"

she was literally standing right above the Tomb of the Neverborn who cast them up and was speeding up your perception of time in its presence so you could even see them. You only got one question on the Exaltations because they were only in sight for one turn from Molly's PoV.

Abyssals did not escape, they were deliberately sent as a conscious action of the Neverborn in the tomb because it believed it would serve its interests.
Literally begging for help .
Finally from the manual the chosen of the Void how much power either the dead primordials or the Fallen primordials had in creation without special operators
You were claiming a complete lack of coherence, but then showed them actively head hunting recruits to serve their interests.

You know who else did this with mortals? Invictus Sol. Autobot. Everyone who ever used the exalted to do things.

Literally the only time the Neverborn have a coherent command ever.
You're only demonstrating that they can and did have coherent willpower and pursued their own agendas. They planned to get the Death lords, made a tempting deal, then used their pawns to smuggle their power back into reality and waited for their poisoned gifts to kill it.

You even show them independently negotiating with the Yozi and changing plans to account for newly acquired resources.

Over all I'd say they had a remarkable grasp on the human condition for their sort of being, and as a consequence their plans seem to have been going pretty well. Sure reality isn't dead yet, but look what they did to the place with the wisdom to offer humans rope to hang themselves with and then waiting.
Which completely fucks the ability of the never born to make Death Knights instead of Chosen of the Void through indoctrination and also deletes the kill switch.
How do you know what that thing had or what it's done?

All we know for sure is that the Neverborn in the tomb has been around this block a few times before, had the knowledge to mess with things, and let loose the Abyssals because it believed it would benefit from doing so.

That doesn't mean it was completely right, or that the Abyssals are full on slaves, but you're asserting claims that your cites don't seem to support and assuming details we have no reasonable measure of.
Last but not least at least in my mind take it or leave it it's not in the main section but the Storyteller sections
Again, your cites say they are overall free, but also reference some bindings. Further; the infernal case isn't as relevant here because we're talking about Abyssals. I only brought them up as a reference for the scale of the curses the Abyssals are under by default in ExWoD. Holden at least counts their disadvantages as cumulatively equal to having a cursed limit track again.

Also worth noting that your quote establishes that it is entirely possible to mutilate an exaltation such that the Chosen has no free will. The choice not to do so to avoid surrender oath abuse would have no meaning if it was impossible to do.

I doubt something like that has been done here for a variety of reasons, but in a technical sense this is the exact sort of being who could make chains stick.

I'm pretty sure you need free will to be complicit in anything. Bob does not have it, all their morals and personality are imprinted by whoever owns the skull. Evil Bob is just what that construct was under Kemmler. All that being removed from the skull meant is that they couldn't be so easily reprogrammed anymore, not that they acquired free will.

To what extent does true moral culpability matter in a case like this? A monster that has no choice but to be a monster is still a threat to others. It's just one that can't choose to stop.
This is a mischaracterization of events. Bob "chose" to create evil Bob in the first place, by partitioning his memories under Kemmler, effectively preserving the old personality imprint it had back then. And of course the recreated imprint "chose" to escape from anyone not like Kemmler, it was the nature it was (re)programmed with.
I think that there's a bit more to it than that. From what I recall of that scene, Bob mentions that his type of spirit literally is knowledge. He gains spiritual "mass" by learning things, and he couldn't know the things Kemmler taught and remain himself.

My read on the situation is that when Bob learns something it doesn't just become part of what he knows, it becomes in small part what he is. Even with a new owner for the skill he would have been incapable of keeping that knowledge and being a different sort of person.

Because Bob is what he knows learning things that impose opposite states effectively tries to turn him into two different things at once. So instead he literally becomes to different people and the larger portion displaces the smaller one.

Edit: error
 
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I will preface this. I was actually completely wrong about the incoherence of the never born apparently I was conflating that with powerlessness but no they make concrete requests constantly when you get to the Whispers section in manuals of exalted power you can literally open up a line between a specific never born and an Abyssal I didn't know that so apparently they're not completely incoherent they're just nominally incoherent if you're listening to too many of them at once and doing so will drive you insane like the nephracks and the other dark spirits that inhabit the Labyrinth.
They took the limit track system and perverted it as a revenge weapon against exalts. That is what I meant by hijack. That it's gone now doesn't change that these are beings who are among the most knowledgeable about how exaltions work, how to exploit them, and in general how the exalted operate
Okay sure I do have to imminently say that's not what hijacking means but okay. As they didn't take control of any of the functions of exaltation and the patch they had worked off an existing feature that was completely random in how it affected every exalt so it's hard to say it was hijacking because they had no control over it but okay.
Your own quote says that they were prevented from acting by a barrier, that implies a desire and capacity to act.

In the quest the thing we just interacted with was able to recognize an infernal, understand what that meant, proactively choose to be polite. We didn't get to look at the shards because they were slow, it chose to slow down time so we could see:
Yes a barrier set up by ghosts in the Underworld the place where they should have the most power to act at all and they can't even get the spirits of the Dead that only exists because they drink of their Essence to surrender you get that, right. The place where the Neverborn to have the most power can not push hard enough to act against beings again acting against them.

Literally on the mouth of Oblivion right next to the abyss they build a Fortress damn near on top of the Neverborn and they can't stop them from building that Fortress it doesn't scream we are fully capable of acting by ourselves for what I feel are pretty obvious reasons as fortresses don't just materialize overnight not even in the Underworld.
Abyssals did not escape, they were deliberately sent as a conscious action of the Neverborn in the tomb because it believed it would serve its interests.
That is true. Though the Neverborn in the Manual assign the Abyssal Exalted to their last best hope of achieving their goals so freeing them at all is in it's interest no strange alterations necessary.
Manual of exalted power of Abyssals page 26 said:
They are not as numerous as the Neverborn hoped, but then Creation is not as large as it once was. Perhaps 100 will suffice to kill the world and break the bonds that deny the Neverborn their rightful death. The Neverborn have every confidence that this is so. This time they will not be denied.
How do you know what that thing had or what it's done?

All we know for sure is that the Neverborn in the tomb has been around this block a few times before, had the knowledge to mess with things, and let loose the Abyssals because it believed it would benefit from doing so.

That doesn't mean it was completely right, or that the Abyssals are full on slaves, but you're asserting claims that your cites don't seem to support and assuming details we have no reasonable measure of.
I can say it's true because without the holder Montrances those were just free exaltations. Even when exalted an abyssal exaltation still exists within those artifacts that's what made them kill switches the fact that we saw free flying exaltations means they were free flying exaltations.

The only bounds in manuals of exalted power that the neverborn had or could impose on the Abyssal exalted were resonance every other chain was made by the death Lords and their immense power, personal and otherwise.
Again, your cites say they are overall free, but also reference some bindings. Further; the infernal case isn't as relevant here because we're talking about Abyssals. I only brought them up as a reference for the scale of the curses the Abyssals are under by default in ExWoD. Holden at least counts their disadvantages as cumulatively equal to having a cursed limit track again.

Also worth noting that your quote establishes that it is entirely possible to mutilate an exaltation such that the Chosen has no free will. The choice not to do so to avoid surrender oath abuse would have no meaning if it was impossible to do.

I doubt something like that has been done here for a variety of reasons, but in a technical sense this is the exact sort of being who could make chains stick.
They are not the kind of being that can make the chain stick the death Lords are the one who made the chains that's why I have them italicized there. Because the Bindings that are kill switches for the death Knights belong to the death Lords. Without the deathlords there's literally no ghost powerful enough to hamper an Abyssal. Without the death Lords there's no one who is strong enough to have a presence in the Living World either.

Also for the final reason that that's not the same thing the neverborn are even less than the Fallen Titans and understand exaltation even less than the incarna what you're talking about would require full scale refits from beings that can't even do what the Yozi did and they are specifically called out as being too broken to make anything except something that already exists.

There's also the fact that that Free Will argument for the infernals doesn't have anything to do with the process of exaltation it has to do with the training and indoctrination of infernals because they could in that training make them Akuma which are completely lacking free will slaves to the Yozi that's why the Storyteller section emphasizes the difference between an Akuma and a Green Sun Prince.
Manual of exalted power of Infernal page 26 said:
THE INFERNAL MIND
For all that an Infernal Exalt's body changes within the Chrysalis Grotesque, her mind undergoes just as thorough a
transformation. The human mind, it seems, does not come naturally predisposed to serve and please a Yozi master. To make a mortal into a valued, loyal servant takes some tinkering. The first round of this tinkering occurs within the chrysalis, as the erstwhile demon's flesh flows over the mortal's body and her vision is plunged into darkness. When the initial darkness clears, the mortal finds herself in a nightmarish hellscape in which she is deluged by a torrent of alien memories of loss and tragedy and frustrated rage. (It is unclear whether these memories come directly from the Yozis or from the Solar Exalt who once possessed the tainted Exaltation.) Snatches of memory—some of which goes all the way back to the Primordial War—blast through the Infernal's mind, and the shinmaic design schema on which Creation itself was based dance in tantalizing swirls just at the edge of comprehension.

The experience is ecstatic, sublime, agonizing and heartbreaking, and most Infernal Exalts remember only vague, dreamlike fragments of it. As intense as it is, however, it is nothing more than an anaesthetizing distraction from the delicate work the Yozi must perform on the Exalt's mind and soul.
They can't make Green sun slave during Exaltation but they can after.

Also I'm getting kind of tired of trying to prove a negative here why don't you give me some form of evidence for this distinctly powerful claim that makes no sense with what I know and what I can read from the source material.

If you give me quotes or anything from any source of exalted that supports your claim that they never born could make true slaves out of a an exaltation I will cease with this line of argument because the never-born can't even force an Abyssal to show themselves to them without assistance.
Manual of exalted power of Abyssals page 41 said:
The Abyssal's Neverborn lord then commands his presence. If the deathknight won't submit himself to judgment willingly, his Deathlord can probably make sure the Exalt answers the summons one way or another. Barring that, one of the deathknight's Exalted peers will almost certainly subdue and return with the wayward failure in order to curry favor or make up for a past failure of his own. If nothing else, eager hordes of nephwracks can swarm from the Labyrinth at the Neverborn's command to drag the recalcitrant deathknight to his rightful master's tomb.
It just seems completely incongruent with their lack of physical existence and lack of ability to do much of anything by themselves for them to have been able to crack secrets that not even apparently the yozi did they just have privileged access to the infernals because they trained them and also can make Akuma. Then it also contradicts the fact the only reason they of affecting Exaltation so profoundly in the first place was through their death curse.
Manual of exalted power of Abyssals page 26 said:
THE GREAT CURSE, AGAIN
When the Neverborn received their stolen Exaltations from the Jade Prison, they made a fateful
decision whose ramifications have yet to be realized:
They revoked the Great Curse. This revocation applies only to the Exaltations they have in their possession, of course, but that still accounts for a third of all the Solar Exaltations ever created… a not insignificant number. In theory, removing the Curse makes their Abyssals more manageable in the long term, as Abyssal Exalted don't suffer the bouts of poor impulse control that afflict the Solar Exalted.
If the Neverborn find they were wrong, it's too late for them to change their minds. Only the unique circum-
stances of their unthinkable defeat by the Solars gave them the power to implement the Great Curse in the first place. They retain the authority to lift the Curse, but once they do, they have no power left to reapply it
You suggesting rewriting base functionality with beings that are shadows of shadows of shadow of what they were all those epochs ago.

I will say this all started with this claim
That is the reason Molly's chains are gone; the exaltation was left unattended in a gutter for so long that time broke and restarted at least once.
Which is fine but there was a Malfean Demon attached to it this assertion that the reason molly has no chains was because it was left unattended is just incorrect. The exalted are free the only that weren't is because they had a Void Circle necromancer breathing down their neck rather than a lack of will.
Manual of exalted power of Abyssals page 116 said:
THE MONSTRANCE OF CELESTIAL PORTION
(ARTIFACT N/A)
The genesis, implementation and control of the Abyssal Exaltation depends entirely on the Monstrances
of Celestial Portion. The Neverborn themselves empower these terrible implements, though they need lesser creatures to serve as their hands and supply the raw materials. As such, a Monstrance's Artifact rating is truly Not Applicable. Their power is at once so vast and so narrow that normal considerations of value and utility do not apply.
-
Arcane Link: Certain Abyssal Charms (and all necromancy spells) treat a deathknight's Monstrance as if it were a physical extension of her body, transmitting the effects of the magic directly to her. Deathlords use this dread mystical correspondence to communicate with and punish their deathknights, and to appear in visions to candidates who have not yet chosen whether to die or accept Exaltation. If such effects kill an Abyssal, the cage shatters and the freed Exaltation must be summoned to a new Monstrance. The possibility that another Deathlord might poach the Exaltation, however, usually deters such extreme solutions to treachery.
There is more but I'm just going to be real I need some kind of evidence because and I don't mean this in a mean way but it comes off as paranoid to assume that they're capable of doing what you said or even insinuated based on what we know up to including the fact that they can't even use the monstrances by themselves nor can they make them. They also couldn't capture any of the exaltations by themselves and they also couldn't convert any of the exaltations by themselves it's just a bridge too far to assume they could freely alter an exaltation in such a fundamental manner.
 
Vote closed, end of the line for Evil Bob.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 15, 2025 at 5:41 AM, finished with 67 posts and 31 votes.
 
Arc 15 Post 60: Ripples Across Eternity New
Ripples Across Eternity

Egypt, Time Unknown

It's not without thought you draw your sword, not without worry for the being at your side, but you recall clear as day the revulsion burning behind the eyes of the skull in Harry's basement, the being which barely grasps the concepts of human morality moved to loathing and shame. Some things should not be known.

The soft hiss of air passing, flame crackling, parting stone in a single motion.

"DaMN YoU! DaM...!" the spirit's scream collapses into sounds the human throat could never made, but even as the burning edge of its essence trails green embers like a poison rain.

"Be at peace." Lydia raises a hand, more a parting wave than blow as a bolt of living silver strikes precisely at the core of strange geometries and stills them evermore.

"Why Kill?" Lamentations turns his face towards her, though his body does not shift an inch.

If your friend finds the manner of his adress strange she does not show it. "A spirit of knowledge and yet He was wrong and he could never be right, for the way he was wrong was all that defined him, pain was all he had ever given the world and all he could give. To be healed he would have to be made whole again, but that would only carve the wound of his essence upon a mind undeserving." Huh... that's right, Bob could have taken him back couldn't be? If he could be made to find peace with the horrors Kemmler had made him party to. "So," Lydia continues in calm and mesured tones, like a funerary march, "Rather than let the ache linger or worse escape and inflict yet more suffering upon the world trying to fill the void of its creator I made him Not."

"Why this and not more? Why stop?" Aakebushu asks, the death of mask of his face utterly still.

"Why do you want to see the sun?" Lydia shrugs.

"Curi-o-sity?" the word seems almost to fall apart on his lips and for a moment you feel your boon waver, almost rejected.

"There you go then, that is your answer, part of it at least, the one you hold for now." Your friend sighs. "If I gave you my answer for why things should be you'd doubtless find it unintuitive and strange and in that gap of understanding might sweet words of nothingness ring. I do not know and could not tell you why each and every one that is might think to deny Them that dwell below, but I can tell you with assurance of one who has entured temptation where Their power dwells."

"I know that, do you forget where you found me?" the not-child asks, annoyed.

"Oh no, that's just direction..." she turns her hand, the same one from which the deadly bolt had flown clockwise until her thumb is pointing down then flips it back. "The truth of Them each one carries with us always when we are lonely and lash out against the hand that's offered. The Void grows in wisdom as it grows in scale but it will only ever be a truth absolute if they win."

"When," the dark spirit frowns.

"How do you know?"

For a minute, maybe two, God it's good to be able to count time properly in your own head, Aakebushu is silent as he is still as he considers again the prospect of Oblivion, not as a fate to be held off, but as one which might or might not come to pass at all, as an article of faith. Something nudges at the back of your brain, but now's not the time to pursue it as the world seems to hold its breath.

"I don't." The revenants all twitch in eerie synchronicity and you realize Lydia had surrendered her power over them, a show of trust even if each one individually wouldn't be a threat to you. "Sun, now."

It's not so much a command to you but to the roof of stone and to the sand above it that parts as a tomb broken from within. Masonry freely into the sundered temple, but it falls not at the whim of gravity, but in perfect geometric arcs that do not strike Lydia, Tiffany or you, nor any of the delvers.

And that is when you realize it's not nearely as bright as as it should be, the sun disk is covered by a black shadow, a ring of fire etched around it.

Gained 2 Essence (Urge)

"Uhm... Tiff, was there a total solar eclipse schedualed for any time in march?" Please let us not have lost time.

"No..." a pause as she looks up. "I don't think that's the moon."

The shadow passes quickly, less than a minute after Aakebushu had risen from the earth, leaving him standing, still as stone on the sand, head tilted upwards, but as you have Clippy querry the satelites you find Egypt wasn't the only place visited by strange celestial phenomenon: auroras had swirled as far south as the tropics, unfamiliar constelations had shone over major cties, their stars so bright as to outshine the light glare, the moon had been seen waxing and waning in moments, phantoms of an age long dead or perhaps portents of one yet to come.

"The Date is still March 13th 2007," Clippy offers dutiffuly.

Part of you wonders why it didn't do that when you found your Crown or it found you, mostly you are just thinking how to explain all of this.

Lydia Essence 7/7 (0/3 Jade Talisman)
Molly Essence 9/18
Molly Willpower 8/9


Who, if anyone do you warm first?

[] The White Council

[] The Winter Court

[] The White Court

[] The Fellowship of Saint Giles

[] The Jade Court

[] Wrtie in


OOC: There are going to be a lot of talking heads on a lot of news shows talking about optical illusions and mirages over the next few weeks.
 
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I think we need to warn the Wizards, Winter, and the Library in that order of importance. The first is our closest ally right now. The second maybe you don't need to warn them, they might start hunting, but that's part of their job. The third... It's important for the governments to know there's a new player out there.
 
I think we need to warn the Wizards, Winter, and the Library in that order of importance. The first is our closest ally right now. The second maybe you don't need to warn them, they might start hunting, but that's part of their job. The third... It's important for the governments to know there's a new player out there.

Not saying you shouldn't do it but explaining this to the Government is going to be a challenge.
 
And that is when you realize it's not nearely as bright as as it should be, the sun disk is covered by a black shadow, a ring of fire etched around it.

"Uhm... Tiff, was there a total solar eclipse schedualed for any time in march?" Please let us not have lost time.

"No..." a pause as she looks up. "I don't think that's the moon."

The shadow passes quickly, less than a minute after Aakebushu had risen from the earth, leaving him standing, still as stone on the sand, head tilted upwards, but as you have Clippy querry the satelites you find Egypt wasn't the only place visited by strange celestial phenomenon: auroras had swirled as far south as the tropics, unfamiliar constelations had shone over major cties, their stars so bright as to outshine the light glare, the moon had been seen waxing and waning in moments, phantoms of an age long dead or perhaps portents of one yet to come.

"The Date is still March 13th 2007," Clippy offers dutiffuly.
So, uhh... That's Masquerade gone, right? We should order our legions to march forth, I guess.

Because I can't see how this can be swept up.
 
How do you figure that?
Unexpected solar eclipses don't happen. Period. That's settled science, the very foundation of how the world works. In order for the moon phase to suddenly change, or for there to be a solar eclipse, you basically have to throw out newtonian mechanics, and introduce supernatural entities. That's "yeah guys, Flat Earth is actually real, and we were just screwing with you" level of mindbend to me. That's "we live in the Matrix" or "Xeelee are visiting" or, yeah "magic is real" stuff. Like, ok, maybe I can buy unknown constellations and auroras, if we are witnessing "once in a universe's lifetime" cosmological event - probably a series of simultaneous supernova explosions, and even then "War in Heaven, and Necrons just blew this constellation" would be a plausible explanation. But not "different phases of the moon" or "unexpected solar eclipse".

Dresden Files humanity is obviously not real humanity, and is either under some magical compulsion, or has evolved the aversion to magical explanations, but I think pretty much all science-related community now knows that magic is real. Even if the Masquerade hasn't fallen, it's much thinner now.
If you want to take it that way you could try to crack it all the way, but 'magic' isn't going to be the explanation the evening news gives.
I am just morbidly curious about how this can be explained in a way that anyone will buy.
Who, if anyone do you warm first?
Just to be clear - what are we explaining? LoV ("please put a hold on fighting Black Court, we are in the process of rolling out an update to fix the universal hostility issue") or Abyssals?
 
Unexpected solar eclipses don't happen. Period. That's settled science, the very foundation of how the world works. In order for the moon phase to suddenly change, or for there to be a solar eclipse, you basically have to throw out newtonian mechanics, and introduce supernatural entities.
That sounds like bais. Just because unexplainable things are observed doesn't mean it's magic. There is a reason why regardless of how foundational newtonian mechanics are still considered a scientific "theory".
 
I think that yes it will be impossible to hide it under illusions and tricks of light for anyone who has enough points in sciences. So now we can expect an explosion of attempts to find an answer and perhaps a new age of spiritualism in science... And maybe this time they will find something other than vague mediums.

That sounds like bais. Just because unexplainable things are observed doesn't mean it's magic. There is a reason why regardless of how foundational newtonian mechanics are still considered a scientific "theory".
Yes, this is called bias, being a scientist with a sufficient understanding of physics. I'm talking about Yog, if anything.
 
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That sounds like bais. Just because unexplainable things are observed doesn't mean it's magic. There is a reason why regardless of how foundational newtonian mechanics are still considered a scientific "theory".
You don't understand what the word theory means in context, sorry. You are conflating it with a hypothesis. Also, no, it's not a scientific theory, it's a scientific law.
I think that yes it will be impossible to hide it under illusions and tricks of light for anyone who has enough points in sciences. So now we can expect an explosion of attempts to find an answer and perhaps a new age of spiritualism in science... And maybe this time they will find something other than vague mediums.
Motonic science is science, and we could capitalize on this if we have time. The whole "we are interdimensional aliens, we come in peace" plan someone proposed earlier (sorry, don't remember who) may work.
 
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