Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Hell in what way? Denarians at least do not get access to outside intel - one area where Heaven reigns supreme is intelligence gathering and knowledge. "Mysterious Ways" >>> Anduriel's "listen from the shadows", and that's the greatest intel gathering ability denarians have. And they are the only agents on Earth at the moment. I kinda am expecting Michael is leaving house as we speak on an emergency mission. Sanya too. Hell, it's quite possible Dresden or Murphy have just been called to serve as Knights for an emergency mission
This doesn't strike me as a subtle event. Plenty of powers have broad awareness of the world or will notice where they land before we do.


Since no one saw this coming, all is not lost. Abyssals are not inherently evil, and Lydia should have an in with them. And an E1 Abyssal with no support network should be something we can handle, both socially and in combat. Narrative causality also almost certainly demands that we'll get Murphy shot on the job to exalt as an abyssal or something like that.
They're still highly biased to some nasty people. You tend to treat the fact that they can't pick Solar heroes anymore as secondary to their desire to.

It's possible a good person gets picked, but why are you so dismissive of the many explicitly bad opinions each type has? Sure the Daybreak could be an FBI agent working serial killer cases, but 3/5 of the options involve being crazy.

The point of changing them was to make them pick the dark side. These sparks weren't set loose under lab conditions, they're free on earth to pick whoever wherever they want.

Peak Moonshadow would be exalting an insurance CEO who just automated the deaths of countless people and got murdered by the ghosts of their victims. The guy who tried to sell Charity to a dragon would be a decent Midnight. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.


Yeah, the concern about containing Solar shard to prevent proliferation just went out of the window, and, assuming it didn't just auto-release (because this is a large emergency), the action meant to contain it should be spent on shoving it into the closest allied host we can find.
Cause what we really need are another two exalts to keep track of.

These are the actually good Solaroids. Barring crafting we haven't done* or a custom charm set which bridges the gap** our advantage is brief where it exists at all.

Molly's social game for example, has only marginally improved from where we started. If the Moonshadow, which goes to social specs in the first place, actually buys their caste charms at the proportion we did at character creation they will be significantly better than we are at social combat out of the box.

These guys are to our plot what we've been to everyone else and you're acting like they're blank slates we can manipulate.

If we're twice as competent as we usually are we might possibly still be relevant to our own story in two arcs as something other than a place where other people's arcs happen.

* Which they can also match.
**Which ours very much doesn't.
 
[X] Getting out of here sounds good

"I came, I saw, I released unspeakable horrors and recruited one of them. My work here is done."
-Molly Carpenter, Queen of the Thousand and First Hell and Totally Not Evil Just Ask Her
 
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This doesn't strike me as a subtle event. Plenty of powers have broad awareness of the world or will notice where they land before we do.
It is not a subtle event. Heavenly omniscience is still >>> the surveillance capability of pretty much everyone else in canon. I really don't understand why you assume that evil will have an advantage here.
They're still highly biased to some nasty people. You tend to treat the fact that they can't pick Solar heroes anymore as secondary to their desire to.

It's possible a good person gets picked, but why are you so dismissive of the many explicitly bad opinions each type has? Sure the Daybreak could be an FBI agent working serial killer cases, but 3/5 of the options involve being crazy.

The point of changing them was to make them pick the dark side. These sparks weren't set loose under lab conditions, they're free on earth to pick whoever wherever they want.

Peak Moonshadow would be exalting an insurance CEO who just automated the deaths of countless people and got murdered by the ghosts of their victims. The guy who tried to sell Charity to a dragon would be a decent Midnight. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.
The point of changing them was to get deathknights. During Age of Legends all abyssal exalted were manually selected by Deathlords. At least all canon ones. Abyssal shards didn't use autoamtic targeting, as far as I can tell.

I acknowledge that abyssal shards are at least somewhat predisposed to ruthless or at least somewhat evil people. I hope that between us and everyone else involved that's correctable. 3/5 chance is not "highly biased".
Cause what we really need are another two exalts to keep track of.
If they are allies? Yes.
These are the actually good Solaroids. Barring crafting we haven't done* or a custom charm set which bridges the gap** our advantage is brief where it exists at all.
Oh hell no. Our advantage is "E4 with an established circle, a number of advantageous backgrounds, and a goddamn world behind her, plus the Crown of Eyes". We spent a year doing highly dangerous high risk high XP stuff to get where we are. No, I am not buying that they would just instantly or near instantly become our peers.
Molly's social game for example, has only marginally improved from where we started. If the Moonshadow, which goes to social specs in the first place, actually buys their caste charms at the proportion we did at character creation they will be significantly better than we are at social combat out of the box.
MInmax walking statsheets are not characters. Also, would they have essence to back it up? Motivation to socially fight us? Ability to fight us physically and socially at the same time? Because if they are hostile, and evil, which yes, we can in fact determine at nearly a glance (Crown question and NWS) nothing is stopping us from killing them, and going to the next host. In order to be able to resist subversion, abyssal has to be able to escape Molly, or to defeat Molly both in combat and in socials. Or are you saying that an out of the box abyssal is capable of defeating Molly in combat right now?
 
At this point we should be more worried about everyone else acting on this and not perceive the Abyssals as existing in any sort of vacuum. Like, for example, I wouldn't assume that they'd have no support network to fall back on or that they aren't already involved with a major supernatural faction.
 
We might be going about finding Abyssals wrong. Instead of having Molly try and find a focus, have Harry use Molly as a willing focus, and use 5 motes of essence for a legendary autosuccess. His divination is actually quite good as is.
At this point we should be more worried about everyone else acting on this and not perceive the Abyssal's as existing in any sort of vacuum. Like, for example, I wouldn't assume that they'd have no support network to fall back on or that they aren't already involved with a major supernatural faction.
The dangerous options I see right away are:
1) Red Court indoctrinated victim, or, worse yet, half-red in the process of turning
2) At least one of Kemmler's disciples
3) Denarian cultist.

No one is saying this isn't a disaster we walked right into. It is. But we have to deal with it somehow.
 
1) TTC a long-handle ladle, gather some water from Black Ocean, use that as focus?

Remember that TTC instruments are now called from the FFC, so are also part of Molly, so this may not be as much insulation as you might think.

The point of changing them was to get deathknights. During Age of Legends all abyssal exalted were manually selected by Deathlords. At least all canon ones. Abyssal shards didn't use autoamtic targeting, as far as I can tell.

They could get free of their monstrance and become autonomous.
 
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If we're twice as competent as we usually are we might possibly still be relevant to our own story in two arcs as something other than a place where other people's arcs happen
Either they do nothing about it, die, or we see them ten years later when they try to blow up the world. Frankly, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Plus, I have more faith in DragonParadox's ability to handle this plot line.
 
If we're twice as competent as we usually are we might possibly still be relevant to our own story in two arcs as something other than a place where other people's arcs happen.
You realize that this is an argument in my favor, right? If I buy your "abyssals will quickly outpace us in all respects and render us irrelevant" (I seriously don't buy it), then the only chance we have is to get them now. If need be, kill the hosts the shards selected, and then use them as foci to find new hosts, and keep doing so until we find a group of abyssals that become our allies.
 
Honestly?
Shrugs
This is much less terrible than what I thought was going to free itself so… no complaints here.
Def need to find them but like… more exalts is a good thing long term, assuming they're also free of the primordials.
Molly is what, two steps from being one herself at this point?
 
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Yes, picking the safest option always is so fucking boring.
Yeah. We picked the safest option when we chose to fight the sea God in Summer instead of letting Titania handle it. We picked the safest option when we lead a raid into literal Hell. We picked the safest option when we decided to abandon defense and got stabbed in the back loosing one third of our health pool to God-Bot back in Vegas.
 
Yeah. We picked the safest option when we chose to fight the sea God in Summer instead of letting Titania handle it. We picked the safest option when we lead a raid into literal Hell. We picked the safest option when we decided to abandon defense and got stabbed in the back loosing one third of our health pool to God-Bot back in Vegas.
Yes, you get it. Those are minor powers we beat pretty trivially. We never really fight the major powers that are the problems.
 
Yes, you get it. Those are minor powers we beat pretty trivially. We never really fight the major powers that are the problems.
You are disillusioned or don't pay much attention to the thread. We were literally told that the Wicked City is ruled by an Angel level equivalent being with Lord of the Land type effects. Explain to me how breaking into one of its highest security areas was the safest option available when we literally could've chosen not to bother after rebuffing him and taking over Boston.
 
We were literally told that the Wicked City is ruled by an Angel level equivalent being with Lord of the Land type effects. Explain to me how breaking into one of its highest security areas was the safest option available when we literally could've chosen not to bother after rebuffing him and taking over Boston.
Being an angel doesn't stop you from being a regional power unfortunately. I fully understand what you're getting at but the fact of the matter is the Jade's and their entire afterlife system are considered Regional powers the only time we've ever seen in this Quest one of the Kings strikeout from the Thousand Hells they got their shit whacked and an exaltation taken for them.

He is also by the flavor text of the infernal exultation a peer power that the infernal should work toward disposal or making a vassal power.
Exalted VS World of Darkness pg. 200 said:
Charms
These are the infernal miracles given to the Demon Princes that they might battle their way to the throne of the Demon Emperor in the Sixth Age yet to come.
I fully agree that breaking into the highest security area of a hell is intense definitely a more dangerous option but it was a course of action that took place over multiple chapters and we definitively prepared for it extensively before going. Then there's the fact that we had to rebuff him twice so breaking his power in some way became necessary because it at least in my mind it's better that he not be capable of striking a third time.
 
Being an angel doesn't stop you from being a regional power unfortunately. I fully understand what you're getting at but the fact of the matter is the Jade's and their entire afterlife system are considered Regional powers the only time we've ever seen in this Quest one of the Kings strikeout from the Thousand Hells they got their shit whacked and an exaltation taken for them.

He is also by the flavor text of the infernal exultation a peer power that the infernal should work toward disposal or making a vassal power.

I fully agree that breaking into the highest security area of a hell is intense definitely a more dangerous option but it was a course of action that took place over multiple chapters and we definitively prepared for it extensively before going. Then there's the fact that we had to rebuff him twice so breaking his power in some way became necessary because it at least in my mind it's better that he not be capable of striking a third time.
His power projection is sharply limited outside of his Hell. We only risked dealing with an Angel level being back then with our party because we went. I'm not sure why you phrased this first paragraph as if your disagreeing with my post.

Flavor text is irrelevant. He was never not going to be locked in combat with the rest of them down there. Especially after we gave him a blackeye in front of his peers. Which is why he sent a plane of troops after us to begin with(according to DP). Which we then killed.

Yeah. Molly brought up using a Fae favor herself at the prospect of raiding the Hell. We put together a nuke to even facilitate it. Judging by how it closed out we needed it.
 
His power projection is sharply limited outside of his Hell. We only risked dealing with an Angel level being back then with our party because we went. I'm not sure why you phrased this first paragraph as if your disagreeing with my post.

Flavor text is irrelevant. He was never not going to be locked in combat with the rest of them down there. Especially after we gave him a blackeye in front of his peers. Which is why he sent a plane of troops after us to begin with(according to DP). Which we then killed.

Yeah. Molly brought up using a Fae favor herself at the prospect of raiding the Hell. We put together a nuke to even facilitate it. Judging by how it closed out we needed it.
The reason I bought it the first part is because I think @Acolyte point if I'm not putting words in their mouth. Is we have a tendency towards picking options that are thoroughly safe for us. In the hell situation we could have gone in by ourselves and probably been fine. We did the thing where we set up a nuke and got a favor from Odin before we set foot there.

Also what do you mean by how it closed out the only reason we got discovered was because we were using the nuke? I thought the whole purpose was the nuke was to break his power to bring hope to the Hopeless. Never deal an enemy a small wound. If it was just a distraction we could have just made an actual nuke we have elicit material contracts from Odin
Black Market Access (Rare Metals)
If the purpose was just a distraction we could have just bought unenriched uranium from the black market contacts enriched it ourselves using TTC and made a little boy then thrown it in the opposite direction of the tower when we got into his hell.

Before you say we couldn't have done that with our science or something the plans for the little boy are known and on the internet also mechanically very simple using a bullet design which is enriched uranium cap slammed at ultra high speed into enriched uranium cap at the other end of the bomb causing fission. It's a highly inefficient design that, compromises explosive yields but makes up for in how simple it was.

Then there's the whole Sandra situation in Vegas which is multiple periods of us sitting around doing very little while we heal -1 extraneous wound penalties while we have a 20 dice Excellency then doing the same with Essence at a different point.

Then there's us kind of just sitting on the information about the White Court still. Then there's the fact that we kind of just sat on the information about Peabody multiple months as well. We just tend to pick courses of actions that are for a lack of a better word safe for us whether that's outside of quest and not having to deal with even kind of real world politics in the form of White Court or in quest and not having to deal with black Council shenanigans until something forces our hand.

I'm sure there are other examples in the Jade vampires arrival into Chicago and the broken Seekers arrival into Chicago and the fetches in undercity. Any confrontation that inevitably has to come we just kind of sit on our hands for considerable period and then they either Force the confrontation or in the fetches case we don't follow through with the obvious consequences of messing with us which is killing the fetches which we needed a willpower roll to not kill them.

At the time it was pitched as not antagonizing Mab which I imagine only further contributes to Acolyte's point.

Though I do feel the need to point something out now being an angel does not make you beyond an exalted power. They might have large scale abilities that would be really bad for us because we don't have any perfect defenses but that was a choice we made rather than something intrinsic about their condition as angels. Molly did not disfavor herself in shintai and low Essence against an angel buoyed on the screaming Souls of being from the Ebon Road.

So maybe claiming something is Angel level is pushing the importance of it a bit too far. Deities, incarna, high-level demons, angels are supposed to be peer level opponents for the exalted not just endlessly outclass them.
 
My worry about abyssals is not about how we might require to find or fight them. It's about how they are going to be stealing Lydia's show. The girl deserves to shine, in another story she would have been a protagonist for sure. And yet abyssals.

We need to push her to celestial tier.
 
The reason I bought it the first part is because I think @Acolyte point if I'm not putting words in their mouth. Is we have a tendency towards picking options that are thoroughly safe for us. In the hell situation we could have gone in by ourselves and probably been fine. We did the thing where we set up a nuke and got a favor from Odin before we set foot there.
Okay, to start with, you do that a lot.

Secondly, I don't at all agree with what you are implying when you say that we probably would've been "fine" if we went by ourselves. If by fine you mean "not dead" in which I have to wonder why you are arguing with such a low ceiling if you are saying that was "thoroughly safe". A tendency towards caution isn't "picking the safest option always" and I gave several examples of us doing the opposite.

You are ignoring several factors along with the fact that Molly was the one to offer up using a favor as a vote option when IIRC there was no other point in which she did so. I recall the discussion you had with BronzeTongue on this in regards to the exact risk profile and I'm not interested in debating that with you and reading your essays. One course of action there was clearly not the safest or even safe option with what we and Molly knew and that option is what we ended up doing.

Edit: Also we didn't get a favor from Odin. We owed him a favor after that.

Also what do you mean by how it closed out the only reason we got discovered was because we were using the nuke? I thought the whole purpose was the nuke was to break his power to bring hope to the Hopeless. Never deal an enemy a small wound. If it was just a distraction we could have just made an actual nuke we have elicit material contracts from Odin
I'm not just going to make the assumption that in this alternative timeline we would've maintained stealth the entire time and meet no opposition. Getting flashbacks to that time someone saw through ATP and stealth failed immediately.

You don't need to justify what we did. I was one of the people who voted and argued to go down there. Pretty sure Molly doesn't have the dots or knowledge to make an actual nuke. In that case we'd have picked something up from Sanctuary, though maybe we could've helped people with the knowledge based needed do so.

So maybe claiming something is Angel level is pushing the importance of it a bit too far. Deities, incarna, high-level demons, angels are supposed to be peer level opponents for the exalted not just endlessly outclass them.
He said that we always go with the safest option then I brought up examples of us not doing that including a raid into Hell and you respond with "Maybe he was only peer level opponent" when we had the option not to run into the realm of a peer with his armies and whatever else.
 
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...Arguing we go with the safest options when Molly just went to Neverborn Central for basically no reason. stole their employee after flaring her power to inform them that she's there, and provoked them into releasing Abyssal Exaltations is outright funny to me.

That was already "Hey demons, it's me YA BOI" territory.

Maybe you wanted her to jump into the Neverborn Juice and do the backstroke?
 
Next Week: Mab creates the Molly Accords.

Rule 1: Molly Carpenter needs responsible supervision at all times.
Rule 2: If Molly wants to go on a 20-minute adventure, all Factions will exert 110% power to convince her otherwise.
 
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