So you don't have one. okay thanks
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Here, let me give you a quote:
CRIME AND CRIMINALS
Crimes of passion and crimes motivated by greed remain
common in the Age of Dreams. Mortal education includes
testing to identify serious psychological problems, though,
and the collection of laws known as the Clear Glass Accord
(see p. 47-) has largely eliminated serious poverty. As a result,
the crime rate is far lower than it would be otherwise. Also,
the advanced forensic methods used by the current era's
peacekeeping forces mean that very few murders or other
serious crimes remain unsolved.
Nevertheless, crime happens and organized criminal
gangs thrive. The existence of organized crime under the
Exalted's careful administration seems to be a bit of a paradox,
and many mortals wonder how criminals who regularly engage
in blackmail, extortion, smuggling, theft and even assassination
can thrive in Creation's well-regulated cities and RPCs.
The answer is both complex and troubling. It comes down in
part to the fact that the Exalted permit it to exist.
The Exalted understand that some mortals fit poorly into
the society they have created. While they can use Charms
and advanced educational techniques to attempt to reform
many potentially problematic individuals, some problems
are too subtle or widespread to be completely corrected. As
a result, the Deliberative uses organized crime as a social
safety value. While petty crime and criminals who have no
connection to organized crime obviously exist, peacekeeping
forces focus special effort on catching overly bold freelance
criminals who lack ties to organized crime.
The Deliberative adopted this policy because the leaders
of the various criminal gangs help to restrain the activities
of the criminals working for them. Gang leaders are usually
well aware that any crimes that are too serious will swiftly
bring the wrath of the Deliberative down upon their entire
organization. Gangs also dislike competition from freelance
criminals and criminal activities that are extreme enough to
cause the peacekeeping forces to step in.
As a result, much crime in the Era of Dreams is organized
into gangs that the Exalted can more easily infiltrate and
observe, and where the Deliberative can intervene if the
gang's activities become too serious or threatening. Most
criminal gangs understand that they will be destroyed if
they target the Exalted or any of their servants, or if they
engage in extreme activities such as arson, destruction of
essential services, mass murder, inciting riots, encouraging
forbidden heresies or openly opposing the Deliberative.
Observant gang leaders have also noticed that gangs that
grow too large are either eliminated or have sufficient of
their number arrested that they shrink to a more appropriate
size. As a result, gangs never control criminal operations in
more than one city or RPC, and large cities typically have
multiple criminal gangs. In addition, criminal gangs are all
expected to make regular payoffs to the local peacekeepers.
While mortals consider this practice to be bribery, the
Lawgivers of the Night Caste who oversee the management
of the gangs consider it an excellent method of taxing crime
and obtaining funds to reimburse important businesses that
have been hard hit by crime.
As long as they follow at least these general rules, criminals
can thrive in Creation's cities. Their world, however, is
separated from the lives of most mortals. Ordinary citizens
who wish to purchase illegal intoxicants, smuggled goods
or low-cost stolen goods, as well as those who wish to hire
thieves or find a buyer for blackmail information, have a
significant chance of encountering peacekeepers working
undercover. When a citizen seeking to make contact with
criminals approaches such an official, the official can do
anything from arresting him to lecturing the citizen on
the error of his ways and issuing a report that he should be
watched more carefully. Such offenders are typically punished
by fines or minor mental correction. Citizens who are
sufficiently clever and observant can usually manage to find
actual criminal gangs, though, as can individuals who have
some connection to the criminal underworld.
The most widespread services offered by criminal gangs
are access to various stolen or pilfered goods, especially
restricted or luxury items. In addition, the gangs offer access
to normally illegal intoxicants or entertainment, such
as unusually powerful and violent dream recordings and
drugs ranging from longevity drugs normally only available
to Deliberative government employees or the very rich, to
bright morning or fire tree perfume. (See The Books of
Sorcery, Vol. III—Oadenol's Codex, pp. 155 and 156.)
Criminal gangs also engage in assassination, but only as
long as the target is not an employee, child or favorite of
one of the Exalted. The Deliberative also carefully investigates
the murder of anyone who is not either a criminal
or one with close ties to criminals. Therefore, murdering
honest civilians is more risky for assassins. Threatening or
assaulting ordinary citizens is permitted, though, long as it
is not too common.
THE USES OF CRIME
In addition to providing an outlet for rebels, dissidents
and overly ambitious mortals who can be monitored and
controlled, criminal gangs are allowed to exist because they
can also serve as discreet and typically unknowing agents
in rivalries between the Exalted. Such rivalries range from
two Dragon-Blooded with an ongoing dispute over property
rights to Lawgivers in adjacent domains fighting a covert
trade war. Often, overt action would earn both parties
the censure of the Deliberative. To avoid such problems,
many Exalts either recruit the services of criminal gangs
through a maze of intermediaries or use powerful Charms
to suborn the will of the gangs' leaders. Both methods allow
an Exalt to avoid any official notice of her actions while
still acquiring the services of mortals willing to perform
various illegal services.
While no criminal gang is willing to do more than
discreetly spy on individual Exalted or local Deliberative
government offices, criminal gangs can attack or threaten
an Exalt's mortal allies or disrupt businesses in which the
Exalt has an interest or that indirectly affect her business
interests. Often, the Exalt who hired or suborned the criminal
gang uses her Charms to help keep anyone from determining
the identity of those responsible for these crimes. Many
Lawgivers accept this practice because it allows rival Exalts
to work out their conflicts without resorting to more overt
actions that might openly disrupt the government or commerce.
The fact that Exalts occasionally use criminal gangs
as cat's-paws is one of the reasons that many criminal gangs
can gain access to useful mutations, methods of manipulating
Essence and Essence-powered artifacts.
Crimes of passion and crimes motivated by greed remain
common in the Age of Dreams. Mortal education includes
testing to identify serious psychological problems, though,
and the collection of laws known as the Clear Glass Accord
(see p. 47-) has largely eliminated serious poverty. As a result,
the crime rate is far lower than it would be otherwise. Also,
the advanced forensic methods used by the current era's
peacekeeping forces mean that very few murders or other
serious crimes remain unsolved.
Nevertheless, crime happens and organized criminal
gangs thrive. The existence of organized crime under the
Exalted's careful administration seems to be a bit of a paradox,
and many mortals wonder how criminals who regularly engage
in blackmail, extortion, smuggling, theft and even assassination
can thrive in Creation's well-regulated cities and RPCs.
The answer is both complex and troubling. It comes down in
part to the fact that the Exalted permit it to exist.
The Exalted understand that some mortals fit poorly into
the society they have created. While they can use Charms
and advanced educational techniques to attempt to reform
many potentially problematic individuals, some problems
are too subtle or widespread to be completely corrected. As
a result, the Deliberative uses organized crime as a social
safety value. While petty crime and criminals who have no
connection to organized crime obviously exist, peacekeeping
forces focus special effort on catching overly bold freelance
criminals who lack ties to organized crime.
The Deliberative adopted this policy because the leaders
of the various criminal gangs help to restrain the activities
of the criminals working for them. Gang leaders are usually
well aware that any crimes that are too serious will swiftly
bring the wrath of the Deliberative down upon their entire
organization. Gangs also dislike competition from freelance
criminals and criminal activities that are extreme enough to
cause the peacekeeping forces to step in.
As a result, much crime in the Era of Dreams is organized
into gangs that the Exalted can more easily infiltrate and
observe, and where the Deliberative can intervene if the
gang's activities become too serious or threatening. Most
criminal gangs understand that they will be destroyed if
they target the Exalted or any of their servants, or if they
engage in extreme activities such as arson, destruction of
essential services, mass murder, inciting riots, encouraging
forbidden heresies or openly opposing the Deliberative.
Observant gang leaders have also noticed that gangs that
grow too large are either eliminated or have sufficient of
their number arrested that they shrink to a more appropriate
size. As a result, gangs never control criminal operations in
more than one city or RPC, and large cities typically have
multiple criminal gangs. In addition, criminal gangs are all
expected to make regular payoffs to the local peacekeepers.
While mortals consider this practice to be bribery, the
Lawgivers of the Night Caste who oversee the management
of the gangs consider it an excellent method of taxing crime
and obtaining funds to reimburse important businesses that
have been hard hit by crime.
As long as they follow at least these general rules, criminals
can thrive in Creation's cities. Their world, however, is
separated from the lives of most mortals. Ordinary citizens
who wish to purchase illegal intoxicants, smuggled goods
or low-cost stolen goods, as well as those who wish to hire
thieves or find a buyer for blackmail information, have a
significant chance of encountering peacekeepers working
undercover. When a citizen seeking to make contact with
criminals approaches such an official, the official can do
anything from arresting him to lecturing the citizen on
the error of his ways and issuing a report that he should be
watched more carefully. Such offenders are typically punished
by fines or minor mental correction. Citizens who are
sufficiently clever and observant can usually manage to find
actual criminal gangs, though, as can individuals who have
some connection to the criminal underworld.
The most widespread services offered by criminal gangs
are access to various stolen or pilfered goods, especially
restricted or luxury items. In addition, the gangs offer access
to normally illegal intoxicants or entertainment, such
as unusually powerful and violent dream recordings and
drugs ranging from longevity drugs normally only available
to Deliberative government employees or the very rich, to
bright morning or fire tree perfume. (See The Books of
Sorcery, Vol. III—Oadenol's Codex, pp. 155 and 156.)
Criminal gangs also engage in assassination, but only as
long as the target is not an employee, child or favorite of
one of the Exalted. The Deliberative also carefully investigates
the murder of anyone who is not either a criminal
or one with close ties to criminals. Therefore, murdering
honest civilians is more risky for assassins. Threatening or
assaulting ordinary citizens is permitted, though, long as it
is not too common.
THE USES OF CRIME
In addition to providing an outlet for rebels, dissidents
and overly ambitious mortals who can be monitored and
controlled, criminal gangs are allowed to exist because they
can also serve as discreet and typically unknowing agents
in rivalries between the Exalted. Such rivalries range from
two Dragon-Blooded with an ongoing dispute over property
rights to Lawgivers in adjacent domains fighting a covert
trade war. Often, overt action would earn both parties
the censure of the Deliberative. To avoid such problems,
many Exalts either recruit the services of criminal gangs
through a maze of intermediaries or use powerful Charms
to suborn the will of the gangs' leaders. Both methods allow
an Exalt to avoid any official notice of her actions while
still acquiring the services of mortals willing to perform
various illegal services.
While no criminal gang is willing to do more than
discreetly spy on individual Exalted or local Deliberative
government offices, criminal gangs can attack or threaten
an Exalt's mortal allies or disrupt businesses in which the
Exalt has an interest or that indirectly affect her business
interests. Often, the Exalt who hired or suborned the criminal
gang uses her Charms to help keep anyone from determining
the identity of those responsible for these crimes. Many
Lawgivers accept this practice because it allows rival Exalts
to work out their conflicts without resorting to more overt
actions that might openly disrupt the government or commerce.
The fact that Exalts occasionally use criminal gangs
as cat's-paws is one of the reasons that many criminal gangs
can gain access to useful mutations, methods of manipulating
Essence and Essence-powered artifacts.
So exactly as dystopian as described because that is what you're describing that is direct 1984-esque controlled opposition shit. If crime only exists at the direct allowance of the government with no real ability to exist outside of that allowance then can it really be considered uncontrolled can it really be considered actually crime or is it just a special temporary dispensation from the law.
Though thank you for the citation.
Edit: wait that's exactly what I said why did I say I was corrected. Brain fart I guess
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This is self fulfilling; the government isn't trustworthy so we must seek alternatives, and by seeking alternatives we create a situation where we create an active conflict between parts of the government in terms of how to handle us.
With the politics happening around the Library and Daedalus this is the sort of thing that could tip the balance towards the stupid side of things.
I don't think this is the right thing for us, or for the mortal communities we're supposed to be doing this for. The Feds are far from perfect, but when the government works correctly it works for the people. When the mob works correctly it works for itself.
Everyone paying attention to the US sees the failure of the private healthcare system, what we're talking about here is doing the same thing to policing. We're just promising to be a benevolent shadowy operation to ourselves and no one else. I mean, how would you see that if it happened where you lived?
I'll admit to bias here; if I wanted to watch my country be sold piecemeal to unelected, unaccountable, and unethical plutocrats I'd turn on CNN.
The Library is a proven investment. When given an opening they were able to clean up Vegas very quickly.
Trying stuff like this is going to make things harder long term on top of being gamble made due to bad vibes about some of the most useful mortal connections we have.
We are a largely unaccountable by anyone shadowy force operating on USA soil. Our words are backed by Nuclear Weapons, and things that make nuclear weapons look tame in comparisons. We have engaged in large scale military warfare, and are guilty of multiple warcrimes. We have committed political assassinations in pursuit of personal vengeance. We claim the domain and jurisdiction of "Safeguarding Creation" by no other right than that of our sword arm, a claim that directly puts us in rivalry with USA government. Whatever we do with Marcone is not even comparable to whatever we do by ourselves. It's much less fantastical, much more street level and mundane, and because of that is less palatable. We talk about preferring SI to Marcone, and I do, by a lot, but we actively prefer Library of Congress (a much more rogue operation), and Winter Court (an inhuman-run operation with mind-warped leaders from ancient times) to Daedalus.
Just to make my position clear.
Dresden is an unelected and unaccountable vigilante group leader whose responsibilities include hunting down and killing USA citizens for the crimes at least some of them were not aware were even possible to commit when they committed them first. And I can write similar stuff about a lot of our associates.
He's a much better person than Marcone, yes, but I can easily see Marcone being the hero of his own story.
Vegas was a city mortal authorities never had control over; it was a city state founded by a major supernatural which pretended to be part of the rest of the country.
The Marcone is not the smartest man in the country; if he can do it then so can a bigger, stronger, and more clued in organization. They just need opportunity and reason to believe it'll stick. That's what our backing would give them.
Ethics of it aside, being a regular murderous cultist of the white council wouldn't have stopped them from going to him for help. It's explicitly canon that his involvement with Marcone is what stopped the Ordo in particular and the minor talent community at large from talking to him at that time.
My proposal isn't to do nothing.
We're going to Vegas this turn, while we're there we can advance our agenda with strategic real estate purchases and arranging to have our minions help a little from their new fortresses.
Both perceptions matter, and both see him as bad for different reasons.
The people on the ground see the nastier sort of criminal and won't be happy with that. The political system/government sees an organized effort that undermines it by existing.
The problem with your cross comparisons here is that we don't have the same type of relationship with those other entities and the calculation you're performing doesn't hit the points that matter. The people who do care about the harm being caused aren't going to accept the argument "we're only as bad as the other guys".
Do you not see a difference between agreeing not to go to war with someone and actively expanding a criminal enterprise?
Paranet for a start, and especially Ordo membership because it carries immunity to whamp attack as a membership bonus.
Help the good elements of the authorities succeed so they can push out the bad ones with material and informational support.
Perhaps something like starting a megacorp and hiring talents as consultants as a means of moving money and people around when needed.
We even have a film studio, which is an excellent excuse for very weird research consultants. Some random weregator needs out of backwoods Florida? Hired as a local expert for firm research and paid a bonus to fly out to our offices. Local ectomancer needs help keeping the region's ghosts calm? We ship them some reagents/tools in a work from home onboarding package.
More immediately, use our trip to Vegas to help expand the reach of law enforcement.
Okay I was kind of keying off of like the appearance of a criminal thing before but Dresden does just look like a serial killer the association with Marcone doesn't help but he is literally a near complete hermit who only leaves his house when he is doing something insane going to get food or working for Marcone.
The fact that lots of violence and lots of magical death tends to follow him around does not help his appearance in general he's assumed to be a psychopath not just because of his Association Marcone because you have to assume there's tens of other people that also work for him that look like normal people it's the fact that he is constantly in a pitch black overcoat bearing a heavy staff and a complete shadowed face with his hat and His Giant stature mix with his hermit nature gives the distinct appearance of being a psychopath that works for a mob boss.
Yeah I just have zero trust that anyone is willing to Advance a real world agenda in any particular way. Basing rights and stationed Personnel means nothing if you are not pursuing actual ends and the threads attention is purely on Supernatural ends which means you are functionally speaking suggesting do nothing.
The supernatural isn't the be all and end all of existence subverting or otherwise being able to Bend Marcone to our ends affects real people that actually matter and makes our lives considerably easier no amount of basing rights does that the temporal power he holds as essentially the Kingpin of Chicago is considerably more real than any basing rights can hope to be.
Which by the way if we're still using basing rights as things to be lauded and we're still providing all of the muscle what the fuck do we need the Library of Congress for you have yet to tell me what the Library of Congress is actually doing in any of these scenarios other than providing a thin veneer cover that we do not actually need.
If we are providing all of the magical grunt if we're providing all of the actual Manpower and we're purchasing the properties and we are housing our soldiers and we are the ones enforcing order what the hell do we need the Library of Congress for. At least Marcone has an immediate and obvious use.
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
We are an active ally of White Council. We supply them with weapon, help with internal security, commit political assassinations to their benefits, help train their recruits. To a politician with any national security concerns White Council is a much worse entity than Marcone. They are an international terrorist organization / cult / secret society / vigilantes. We just don't like to think of it like that because they are mostly good guys.
To a general population we are a boss of a ghoul and white court gang. Ghouls eat people. White Court members eat people's minds.
Who do we get to find and kill or take into custody minor talents that do lawbreaking? Who is going to go after Red Court spies, Black Court thralls, Outsider cultists? That, as I understand, is what Marcone is saying he's doing.
The SI's right there as is the Library?
We did see evidence they do work as intended when it comes to taking care of problems.
Oh, and also:
As you said, that's what Marcone says he's doing, this is not his actual main goal, the man is not a member of any form of law enforcement but a mobster, doing those things is incidental to his true goals at best.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
@fictionfan, can you also vote for the default option so asking what he wants will be tied with the refusal option?
The Library very much doesn't want to be a law enforcement agency. Which is the main reason Daedalus came into existence.
We can, and should verify what Marcone is saying, but I trust him not to be stupid enough to actually lie to us. He knows we have extreme information gathering abilities.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
@DragonParadox This is something that I repeatedly see said by multiple people and Molly's own statement to the baby Wizards on this probably made it worse.
We shouldn't actually be giving them weapons in the background right now. IIRC what was agreed upon is that we gave them a trail run for free so they can test them. If we were actively supplying the WC with guns and such we'd have worked out some kind of payment system after they decided that they wanted us to be a supplier.
Can you clear this up?
Just going to point out that we gave them Akuma instead of killing them.
To be specific you gave them several crates to test, the testing involved bolts of balefire going into vampires. It is worth keeping in mind that this is a wart with a relatively small number of combatants. That said yes when they get done testing (that is when they want more guns) you will have the chance to ask for payment.
That's true. And they have containment facilities. But they don't want to do this systematically. They explicitly told us so, if I recall correctly.
- Location
- Estonia
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
Simply giving Marcone free hands to run the business as usual, *while* actively supporting his growth at the same time, and only accepting indirect results to the criminal underworld as the intended benefit is a ridiculous ask. It's completely taking advantage of Molly and associating ourselves with him for our demerit. Like what are we going to do, when we are later put into a situation where we have to choose between someone like Murphy or Marcone? Which is going to happen eventually, when you run a traditional mob.
Marcone gets *one* chance to reform himself and his enterprise into something we can tolerate supporting. And if he could take the Denarians' bargain with the devil, but not ours, then fuck him.
Simply giving Marcone free hands to run the business as usual, *while* actively supporting his growth at the same time, and only accepting indirect results to the criminal underworld as the intended benefit is a ridiculous ask. It's completely taking advantage of Molly and associating ourselves with him for our demerit. Like what are we going to do, when we are later put into a situation where we have to choose between someone like Murphy or Marcone? Which is going to happen eventually, when you run a traditional mob.
Marcone gets *one* chance to reform himself and his enterprise into something we can tolerate supporting. And if he could take the Denarians' bargain with the devil, but not ours, then fuck him.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
No because I would rather refuse then do any deal that doesn't put him under our thumb.
What about my plan? It is a less extreme variant, and it sets ground rules fairly firmly.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I guess. I would prefer more hard control.
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules
