Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

BoredMan · Nov 22, 2024

fictionfan said:
Umm. You do in fact realize that Harry is in fact a member of the White Council? Also people in universe can't see a party member sign floating above people's heads.

I reread my statements and see where the miscommunication is coming from now, my bad. Somehow it slipped my mind that if implemented in that way Harry would be expected to sign them too. Yes, I'm against that as before. It's rather unfortunate but I'm not seeing a way to have our cake and eat it too on that so I retract my statements.

Edit: Actually this is pretty embarrassing, I was too focused on Peabody prevention and forgot that this sort of thing would also apply to Harry. Just ignore me.

firefrog600 · Nov 22, 2024

Degorium said:
Because the books make you incapable of using magic against Mortals it inherently makes you worse at the managing the main minions of three of the four main courts of vampires managing the main Servants of the fomori and makes you extremely vulnerable to Danger All Around.

Humans are categorically the most dangerous creature for a wizard to deal with simply because of the laws being completely incapable of dealing with them because of the books means no more Ambush parties of Reds or summoned creatures because ambushing them with Mortals is magnitudes more effective now.

it is infinitely better for a wizard to be able to break the laws and then sign the book later then need to try to maneuver around tens of people with shotguns while trying to stick to purely non-lethal force that they know entirely will be non-lethal despite the fact that humans can die completely on accident from completely innocuous incidents.

Inherently Harry was persuaded not to sign the book one because it's kind of a backsliding of his character development as someone who very obviously skirts the laws from time to time with his essentially necromancy that he performs on his T-Rex and his main enemies at the moment and in general are mortal people he's gotten good with the white vampires of Chicago being essentially the brother of the prince and possibly romantic interests of the queen same deal with the fairies.

The red court on the other hand very explicitly uses mortal forces and is not shy about that in a variety of instances it is better for Harry to break the law incinerating a mercenary company than it is for him to die trying to non-lethily take down a mercenary company. He has nothing as far as combat magic that is actually capable of dealing with massed Mortals that isn't immediately fatal.

The book being used as a replacement or a supplement to the Doom of Damocles allows for the reformation and recapture of first time offenders rather than warlocks endlessly spiraling into essentially comically evil wizards they can have an incident where they must defend themselves without dooming themselves to be essentially Darth Vader.

At least that's my perspective on it and why I voted for Harry not to sign the book they were both pragmatic and character based reasons why he shouldn't have.

I mean guns exist and most wizards aren't as good at dakka as harry already I mean better than an average gun of course but like guns are a thing. Also you'd be executed if you did those things previously this is not removing an option they literally would be executed for doing it anyways. Not to mention it literally drives them fucking crazy and prone to do it against all humans. There's no freebies politically if they do it they're a traitor and that's not changing unless we mind control the council. I mean personally Molly may be able to let it go but the council won't even with our fixes. That's not likely to change for a long time and the whole purpose of the book is not just for us to feel morally better about the doom it's to prevent traitors which doesn't work if they don't use the book preemptively because there's no fucking sensors for traitors. Also again guns fucking exist and wardens are supposed to use swords before they no longer could. You're acting as if they used to have this as an option but if they did it and got caught they'd be executed and you know prone to the magical corruption. Also the council doesn't care well anymore than normal people about killing mortals they want wizards to not use magic to do it. So no it's not more effective now as eb is literally the only one who can use magic against them. The book changes jack shit in that area.

Also gonna note can still use magic against mortals just non lethal stuff and defensive stuff and divinatory stuff and so on.

firefrog600 · Nov 22, 2024

CarbotZergling12 said:
I know this was discussed before, the purpose of the books is not to bind the entire white council to never break the laws, that would rather like a country preemptively disarming itself of nuclear weapons to avoid a MAD scenario, their purpose is to offer an option for dealing with warlocks that isn't either a member in good standing putting their life on the line or just executing them outright.

I still think this is retarded because they already can't use those without being executed or corrupted by the magic. We literally have the list of everyone in the council whose done those things who hasn't gone through the doom of Damocles. Because if they had killed said mortals with magic they'd be on the crown question traitor list. This is not removing a strategic asset because they already couldn't use it all the ones who did use it are on the traitor list.

Why do people keep saying this as if historically they already used these things? because if they did they'd be on the traitor list or under a doom of Damocles. There are no exceptions aside from eb for these rules. Well for members of the council that is.

Degorium · Nov 22, 2024

firefrog600 said:
I mean guns exist and most wizards aren't as good at dakka as harry already I mean better than an average gun of course but like guns are a thing. Also you'd be executed if you did those things previously this is not removing an option they literally would be executed for doing it anyways. Not to mention it literally drives them fucking crazy and prone to do it against all humans. There's no freebies politically if they do it they're a traitor and that's not changing unless we mind control the council.

You don't become a cartoon super villain on the first kill or even the third or the 5th or the 10th. It happens at different rates largely arbitrarily though I have to assume intent has something to do with it. Killing a hundred in self-defense probably isn't even equal The Killing one in cold-blooded premeditated fashion because one definitively places your convenience above the life of another while the other places in your life and defending it above the lives of others which immediately makes the intent intrinsically different.

Providing an alternative to execution is literally the whole point the sword Damocles is intensely inefficient really kind of nepotistic in its application and function the ability to perform Reclamation and recapture of offenders keeps the membership high and allows the keeping them valuable Fighters against non-human forces.

firefrog600 said:
I still think this is retarded because they already can't use those without being executed or corrupted by the magic. We literally have the list of everyone in the council whose done those things who hasn't gone through the doom of Damocles. Because if they had killed said mortals with magic they'd be on the crown question traitor list. This is not removing a strategic asset because they already couldn't use it all the ones who did use it are on the traitor list.

Why do people keep saying this as if historically they already used these things? because if they did they'd be on the traitor list or under a doom of Damocles. There are no exceptions aside from eb for these rules. Well for members of the council that is.

Being a traitor and being a lawbreaker just incontrovertibly aren't the same thing. Hell they're not even synonymous. You can be a complete Traitor to the white Council without at all being a warlock the adverse can be completely true because Ebenezer is it compound lawbreaker tends if not hundreds of times over as the black staff of the council. The laws are supposed to be absolute together there's a member who is allowed to break them at all times obviously being a traitor and being a lawbreaker or not the same thing.

firefrog600 · Nov 22, 2024

Degorium said:
You don't become a cartoon super villain on the first kill or even the third or the 5th or the 10th. It happens at different rates largely arbitrarily though I have to assume intent has something to do with it. Killing a hundred in self-defense probably isn't even equal The Killing one in cold-blooded premeditated fashion because one definitively places your convenience above the life of another while the other places in your life and defending it above the lives of others which immediately makes the intent intrinsically different.

Providing an alternative to execution is literally the whole point the sword Damocles is intensely inefficient really kind of nepotistic in its application and function the ability to perform Reclamation and recapture of offenders keeps the membership high and allows the keeping them valuable Fighters against non-human forces.

Being a traitor and being a lawbreaker just incontrovertibly aren't the same thing. Hell they're not even synonymous. You can be a complete Traitor to the white Council without at all being a warlock the adverse can be completely true because Ebenezer is it compound lawbreaker tends if not hundreds of times over as the black staff of the council. The laws are supposed to be absolute together there's a member who is allowed to break them at all times obviously being a traitor and being a lawbreaker or not the same thing.

Ebenezar explicitly has a position that makes him a non traitor breaking a law makes one a traitor to the council. I'm fucking aware the laws are not an exact science in terms of corruption that doesn't change they do corrupt also gonna note Mollys use on her friend in canon explicitly broke something in them and partially of herself given she probably only did it a hand full of times from what I know. Also again being a law breaker 100% means you are a traitor to the council their a bigger deal than even selling info to council enemies as far as I know even the senior council can be executed for doing it once. En has the one position in the council that actively lets him break all of them and the artifact that insulates him from the consequences. I mean look at Arthur here he still didn't break the law during this recent scenario though he did break the spirit to some degree but no one cares about the spirit it was never a moral concern for most of killing other humans. Ebenezzar and Arthur have canonically been in mortal wars. Also duh you can be a traitor without being a law breaker but being a law breaker makes you a traitor unless your under the doom that is and have stopped in which case your on parol. Arthur when he thought a city was on the line and that the council was at risk still didn't break the fucking laws. What does that tell you about leniency?

During war time it's not excepted to be able to kill mortals, when your in danger it's not excepted, when people's lives are at risk it's not accepted. Is that fair? Fuck no but there is no leniency though I think morally some people would probably accept a parol under the doom if they rhoigtt it they had a really good reason like the end of a city or the council itself but they would still essentially go to court for it. How many members alive have ever been under a doom of Damocles I doubt it's a lot more than just harry.

firefrog600 · Nov 22, 2024

Give me a single case in canon that isn't a doom or the black staff who has a artifact that insulates him to the downsides of the council letting someone off the hook for law breaking that they know about?

CarbotZergling12 · Nov 22, 2024

Lawbreaker != traitor to the council, its entirely possible to break the laws without betraying the council, killing someone on accident with magic is still a violation of the first law, it just currently would get you executed because killing someone at all with magic produces a feedback loop where you feel it is justified to kill people with magic, doing it once is a problem, do it twice and the person in question is almost guaranteed to do it a third and then a fourth and so on. That is why the Doom of Damocles is a zero tolerance one last chance. The books of law let us pull people back from the brink entirely, its especially important right now because a bunch of junior wizards got mind-whammied into at least attempting a violation of the first law, and several more were warped by the labyrinth that they were trapped in. Being bound by the books of law removes the ability to kill a human being with magic regardless of circumstances, it not only disarms the death curse but it removes the ability to kill in self defense that a wizard would otherwise have.

firefrog600 · Nov 22, 2024

CarbotZergling12 said:
Lawbreaker != traitor to the council, its entirely possible to break the laws without betraying the council, killing someone on accident with magic is still a violation of the first law, it just currently would get you executed because killing someone at all with magic produces a feedback loop where you feel it is justified to kill people with magic, doing it once is a problem, do it twice and the person in question is almost guaranteed to do it a third and then a fourth and so on. That is why the Doom of Damocles is a zero tolerance one last chance. The books of law let us pull people back from the brink entirely, its especially important right now because a bunch of junior wizards got mind-whammied into at least attempting a violation of the first law, and several more were warped by the labyrinth that they were trapped in. Being bound by the books of law removes the ability to kill a human being with magic regardless of circumstances, it not only disarms the death curse but it removes the ability to kill in self defense that a wizard would otherwise have.

Not sure why people would think that doesn't make one a traitor if they knew the law and broke it. Like why are people making the distinction at all? I mean morally some people may think it a lesser evil than being a traitor but for all intents and purposes being a traitor without being a law breaker is the thing less likely to get you executed ironically than breaking a law. See Morgan's mentor as a reference technically a traitor and all. Is this a word thing a language thing an actual canonical difference? Because by all definitions there's not much difference as far as I see of breaking the laws of the council and getting executed and being a traitor because you literally betrayed the laws if you were part of the council, knew about them, then broke them. Irrelevant of whether it was due to law breakage, selling secrets of the council, or straight up murdering other members. This applies to everyone but the black staff whose insulated from the problems and politically made an exception by the senior council. I mean you can make moral claims they're different and I'd probably even agree but from a strict technical definition do we actually have a definition that separates the two?

Degorium · Nov 22, 2024

firefrog600 said:
Ebenezar explicitly has a position that makes him a non traitor breaking a law makes one a traitor to the council. I'm fucking aware the laws are not an exact science in terms of corruption that doesn't change they do corrupt also gonna note Mollys use on her friend in canon explicitly broke something in them and partially of herself given she probably only did it a hand full of times from what I know.

The laws don't have a carve out they're not metaphysical or indicative of anything the fact that Ebenezer kills using magic makes him a lawbreaker his position as the black staff doesn't exempt him from that they're supposed to be absolute he is a lawbreaker hundreds of times over at minimum the fact that he has a fancy staff doesn't make this fact untrue.

firefrog600 said:
Also again being a law breaker 100% means you are a traitor to the council their a bigger deal than even selling info to council enemies as far as I know even the senior council can be executed for doing it once.

Again no that is not what that means being a traitor is a very specific thing anyone who's selling any information on the white council is a traitor being a lawbreaker is not being a traitor because you can be a lawbreaker without even being in the white Council. You can be a law breaker while in service to the white Council such as people under the Doom of Damocles and fucking Ebenezer. You can be a law breaker who willingly turns himself in to the white Council none of those things makes you a traitor to the white Council. Something being a capital punishment level crime does not make you a traitor it just means that you have committed a crime that is punished by capital punishment level crime does not make you a traitor it just means that you have committed a crime that is punished by death.

firefrog600 said:
I mean look at Arthur here he still didn't break the law during this recent scenario though he did break the spirit to some degree but no one cares about the spirit it was never a moral concern for most of killing other humans.

I don't think I even attempted to make a moral argument at all.

firefrog600 said:
Also duh you can be a traitor without being a law breaker but being a law breaker makes you a traitor unless your under the doom that is and have stopped in which case your on parol. Arthur when he thought a city was on the line and that the council was at risk still didn't break the fucking laws. What does that tell you about leniency?

The laws are also held in high regard by the Wizards also Merlin is a 400-year-old fucking archmage he can literally knock people unconscious by playing Rule Britannia on 3,000 speed 3000 times in a single second without needing to kill anyone he can also set up wards that are fully active and present that might kill people but at that point they have chosen to run into deadly Wards which if that's enough separation then that's enough separation. Leniency doesn't even come into the equation.

firefrog600 said:
During war time it's not excepted to be able to kill mortals, when your in danger it's not excepted, when people's lives are at risk it's not accepted.

When your choices are to die fighting or to die with your neck bent you will choose to die fighting every single time. The book is meant to prevent them from choosing to die fighting you understand this right. The fact of the matter is most people don't have a voucher to take on the Doom Damocles with them or for them which leaves the white Council as a draconian johnsocracy little recourse other than execution the book inherently provides a secondary option.

If they refuse to use the book after it is given to them they will be facing a rebellion because even Morgan the most hard-assed asshole enforcer of the white Council doesn't like his job of killing random people who did not know about the laws beforehand.

firefrog600 said:
How many members alive have ever been under a doom of Damocles I doubt it's a lot more than just harry.

Exactly the book provides a way for more people to be brought in alive more people to turn themselves in alive do you not get this if your option is death with bending knee or death on your feet people will choose death on their feet every single time if they have a single ounce of Pride and anyone with magic the ability to bend the fabric of the fucking world has an ounce of Pride and necessary to not choose to bend their fucking neck to fucking people who have the functionally abandoned them when they have made a mistake.

firefrog600 said:
Give me a single case in canon that isn't a doom or the black staff who has a artifact that insulates him to the downsides of the council letting someone off the hook for law breaking that they know about?

At the moment the doom and the staff are literally the only mechanisms for that that is the purpose of the book to provide a neutral Arbiter that doesn't rely on nepotism in previous connection to recover warlocks and turn them into productive members of the white Council without needing to murder random fucking people.

CarbotZergling12 · Nov 22, 2024

firefrog600 said:
Not sure why people would think that doesn't make one a traitor if they knew the law and broke it. Like why are people making the distinction at all? I mean morally some people may think it a lesser evil than being a traitor but for all intents and purposes being a traitor without being a law breaker is the thing less likely to get you executed ironically than breaking a law. See Morgan's mentor as a reference technically a traitor and all. Is this a word thing a language thing an actual canonical difference? Because by all definitions there's not much difference as far as I see of breaking the laws of the council and getting executed and being a traitor because you literally betrayed the laws if you were part of the council, knew about them, then broke them. Irrelevant of whether it was due to law breakage, selling secrets of the council, or straight up murdering other members. This applies to everyone but the black staff whose insulated from the problems and politically made an exception by the senior council. I mean you can make moral claims they're different and I'd probably even agree but from a strict technical definition do we actually have a definition that separates the two?

Its an actual difference, its the difference between committing manslaughter and treason. The first is an internal crime where you killed someone, the second is a crime with geopolitical implications because you betrayed your nation for a foreign power. The traitors to the White Council we hunted down were the people who were working for the Black Council and/or the great powers of the Outside. The lawbreakers we are making the books for are the people mind controlled by the Conspiracy and all of the future warlocks who maybe could have been saved if there was someone willing to gamble their life on it but had no connections in the White Council willing to take that risk.

Earth-Destroyer · Nov 22, 2024

The WC current view is any breaking of the laws no matter the situation is an automatic death sentence.

The books are more for the PR and outreach to younger generations then anything important.

fictionfan · Nov 22, 2024

Did @firefrog600 just get banned from the thread in the 20 minutes? Normally the mods will give us a post when they do that so we know what not to do.

BoredMan · Nov 22, 2024

fictionfan said:
Did @firefrog600 just get banned from the thread in the last hour? Normally the mods will give us a post when they do that so we know what not to do.

It happened a few minutes ago. Not sure what's going on either.

BronzeTongue · Nov 22, 2024

CarbotZergling12 said:
I know this was discussed before, the purpose of the books is not to bind the entire white council to never break the laws, that would rather like a country preemptively disarming itself of nuclear weapons to avoid a MAD scenario, their purpose is to offer an option for dealing with warlocks that isn't either a member in good standing putting their life on the line or just executing them outright.

Worth noting that the laws only cover humans. The book is based on the laws, so Wizards should be able to blow up most of their enemies just fine.

Degorium said:
You don't become a cartoon super villain on the first kill or even the third or the 5th or the 10th.

You kinda do, or at least the difference between cartoon supervillainy and sane stability is all in what happened and why but there isn't nearly as much wiggle room as you're suggesting.

The laws are harsh precisely because once can and is enough a vast majority of the time. Even having a mundane ethical justification like self defense isn't enough, which is why the Doom isn't automatic in self defense cases. Someone has to soul gaze you and gamble on their ability to discern the health of your soul from doing so.

You can kill someone for reasons no court or moral philosopher would find you at fault over, but could still go crazy anyway.

It's wrong to think of the laws as traditional laws, they're more like rules for handling rabies. A rabid dog isn't put down because it did something wrong, it's put down because it's a danger to others.

fictionfan · Nov 22, 2024

firefrog600 said:
retarded

BoredMan said:
It happened a few minutes ago. Not sure what's going on either.

This is what got him temp banned although I suspect that how aggressive he was being in general didn't help.

fictionfan · Nov 22, 2024

Yog said:
[X] Of Unity. You speak about Unity and inclusivity, about how it is through division and alienation that the enemies of Creation find their way into the hearts of those who should have been its defenders, preservers, builders
-[X] You speak of techbane and the nature of magical alienation, the gift setting the wizards apart from mundane humanity in this modern era, when the spirit of SIngularity is a new god desiring to be born, more so than it has ever done before.
-[X] You speak of talents and population explosion, of those who are not accepted by White Council and yet are still subject to the same dangers
-[X] You speak of the Masquerade itself, of how it will only take one slip for it to fail irreversibly and in the worst way possible
-[X] You use the history of your soul as an example of what might be possible, and of dangers and opportunities such a world has
-[X] Empathy excellency

Something like this. Maybe? All those preset things are symptoms. Symptoms of how White Council has set itself apart. It needs to involve itself in the world more. Not in politics maybe, but in the worldly affairs.

Might I suggest that Molly carry out the talk using [true speech]? It neatly establishes her credentials and the white council is multi national.

Also when dealing with large groups Etiquette or Leadership might be a better exlicancy then empathy

[X] Of the need to modernize, some of the greatest threats out there are moving into whole new technological vistas which the Council has been slow to adapt to
-[x][Stunt]"The White Council is no longer at the cutting edge of mortal magic. The Five Fold Court of Fate is and if you don't want to fall further behind then you are going to need to catch up. I don't want to have to be constantly bailing you people out."
-[x]Use Source Code Compliance protocol for the meeting 1 essence to avoid headaches.
-[x]Etiquette exlicancy

Mithrill · Nov 23, 2024

fictionfan said:
Might I suggest that Molly carry out the talk using [true speech]? It neatly establishes her credentials and the white council is multi national.

Also when dealing with large groups Etiquette or Leadership might be a better exlicancy then empathy

Good advice, but I think the approach you take is more combative than it needs to be. We're talking to a rather august and self-absorbed body, tooting our own horn and telling them they're shit (this is how some of them might percieve it) is unlikely to work, especially when we're here to make a sales pitch.

TheGrape · Nov 23, 2024

[X] Yog

Tech Illiterate Merlin: Dresden, what the heck is this... "Spirit of the Singularity" she's talking about?
Slightly Less Tech Illiterate Dresden: Just because I know how to text doesn't mean I know what the heck that means-

Yog · Nov 23, 2024

fictionfan said:
Might I suggest that Molly carry out the talk using [true speech]? It neatly establishes her credentials and the white council is multi national.

Also when dealing with large groups Etiquette or Leadership might be a better exlicancy then empathy

Oh, sure. That sounds fun. I wonder if the concept of Singularity will just read as [Autochton] in Primordial. Added it into the vote, as well as the use of Etiquette excellency.

Ivar · Nov 23, 2024

[X] Yog

Degorium · Nov 23, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
You kinda do, or at least the difference between cartoon supervillainy and sane stability is all in what happened and why but there isn't nearly as much wiggle room as you're suggesting.

The laws are harsh precisely because once can and is enough a vast majority of the time. Even having a mundane ethical justification like self defense isn't enough, which is why the Doom isn't automatic in self defense cases. Someone has to soul gaze you and gamble on their ability to discern the health of your soul from doing so.

You can kill someone for reasons no court or moral philosopher would find you at fault over, but could still go crazy anyway.

It's wrong to think of the laws as traditional laws, they're more like rules for handling rabies. A rabid dog isn't put down because it did something wrong, it's put down because it's a danger to others.

When I say cartoon villain I just mean someone who is on the side of destroy reality or teaming up with man eating monsters or tackling all the commit mass murder or hypnotism or whatever right off the jump.

There's the thing the metaphysical nature of Law breaking almost certainly has to do with the intent behind your law break and how it affects you because believing wholeheartedly it is okay to kill in defense of your own life means you are more likely to kill and defense of your own life and probably contrive situations where you kill in defense of your own life this is inherently and intrinsically different than killing because you find it convenient good or fun. Both of them are still lawbreaking but one of them is definitely leading to cartoonishly evil Behavior way earlier than the other.

The books allow for the recapture of the ones that are essentially defending themselves as on some level people who are defending themselves don't mind turning themselves in as long as they believe they'll get a fair shake. Which between the books and the Doom of Damocles now seems way more likely because before it's either die on your feet or die on your knees.

Which eventually leads to large conspiracies of kind of semi-stable warlocks attempting to destroy the white Council because they don't want to be killed for something they don't view as their fault.

Yog · Nov 23, 2024

Fouredged Sword said:
I thought the book simply erased your name if you broke the law,

Not erase. Mark as a lawbreaker.

Fouredged Sword said:
Because otherwise the White Council would be nutters to touch the book, giving an object made by an outside power leverage over every wizard's life and magic.

They are extending a lot of trust, but I expect them to study the book, a lot, with volunteers, before they start using it en masse.

fictionfan said:
To be clear I voted for to harry to sign, but I was massively outvoted despite my arguments and I would really wish that one of the people who disagreed with me would make this argument since it must make more sense to them. But now that vote has happened we are sort of stuck.

I was on the fence about this. What tipped me over in the end, is that not signing the book is important for Harry's journey to mental well being. He needs to be able to trust himself. Signing the book makes said trust unnecessary. I am not explaining this very well, but I think this was needed so Harry could believe in himself, not just in us who believe in him.

There's also an issue of him being the Demonreach's Warden. Just like Blackstuff, this is a position that is necessary forthe world to keep functioning, but which may require things that would normally brand one a warlock. It is by Harry's hand we are to be bound if necessary for Creation's safety.

BoredMan said:
@DragonParadox I feel like there should've been a vote to specify exactly how the Books are supposed to work

fictionfan said:
@Degorium Yes and I are in agreement then. The book is a supplement for the Doom of Damocles. It doesn't need to be signed by most wizards.

Apologies on my part as the one who made them, but I even put the detailed build and description in the vote as a link, and there was a discussion when I first designed them. I thought they were quite clear. Sorry if that wasn't so.

I do like the discussion happening, because I imagine something similar happening in White Council too. We are giving them a very powerful, potent tool, an absolute effect right out of the Age of Legends that is applicable to one of their core functions and problems. How to use it is up to them, and this is as much a test of WC as an insitituition as it is a gift. This might well break them and lead to a civil war. I hope it won't and they will be better for our help.

We might advise, but the book is theirs to use as they see fit.

TheGrape said:
Tech Illiterate Merlin: Dresden, what the heck is this... "Spirit of the Singularity" she's talking about?
Slightly Less Tech Illiterate Dresden: Just because I know how to text doesn't mean I know what the heck that means-

And Molly introduced Merlin to internet just two or three months ago.

Harry is actually quite well placed to become the Council's tech policy guy. That doesn't require deep understanding of technology itself. He already knows how to prevent techbane with traditional wizardry (he learned from studying how Last Station magical fields powered it's electricity), he has essence which doesn't cause techbane, he is an urban dweller first and foremost, and he is Molly's close friend.

I expect the next several years for Harry are going to be filled to the brim with adapting to administrative position.

thepsyborg · Nov 23, 2024

BoredMan said:
Does it have an exception clause to allow breaking the first Law in self defense?

The Laws of Magic explicitly do not have self-defense exceptions. If someone is trying to kill you, and you can magic the ground under their feet into a mud pit and stab the fuck out of them, fine. If someone is trying to kill you, and you magically stop their heart, you have killed with magic.

The problem is not that the person shouldn't have died. The problem isn't even that you shouldn't have killed them! The problem is that doing a thing with magic graves into your soul that it is right for you to do that thing- and that graven line neither knows nor cares about circumstances. Someone who musters up the will to kill with magic, even in self-defense, is someone who is now fully convinced in their heart of hearts that killing with magic is right and fucking proper. That they have a right to kill people with magic. That they should kill people with magic. Not "they should kill people with magic in self-defense", no. Like, in general. They should kill people with magic period.

We tend to be maybe a bit biased because our viewpoint character on the series is legendarily hardheaded Harry Dresden, but historically speaking- and wizards have a fairly long view of history, if not quite Exalted long- the slope is not just slippery but damn fucking close to vertical. It's not toooooootally impossible to hold yourself back after a first offense- the Doom of Damocles is obviously a thing that the White Council acknowledges and has procedures for, however grudgingly- but it's pretty goddamn nearly.

BronzeTongue · Nov 23, 2024

Yog said:
[X] Of Unity. You speak about Unity and inclusivity, about how it is through division and alienation that the enemies of Creation find their way into the hearts of those who should have been its defenders, preservers, builders
-[X] You speak of techbane and the nature of magical alienation, the gift setting the wizards apart from mundane humanity in this modern era, when the spirit of SIngularity is a new god desiring to be born, more so than it has ever done before.
-[X] You speak of talents and population explosion, of those who are not accepted by White Council and yet are still subject to the same dangers
-[X] You speak of the Masquerade itself, of how it will only take one slip for it to fail irreversibly and in the worst way possible
-[X] You use the history of your soul as an example of what might be possible, and of dangers and opportunities such a world has
-[X] Empathy, Etiquette excellency
-[X] Source Code Compliance Protocol with essence spending

Something like this. Maybe? All those preset things are symptoms. Symptoms of how White Council has set itself apart. It needs to involve itself in the world more. Not in politics maybe, but in the worldly affairs.

Too much too fast.

This is a meet and greet about who and what the hell is doing all this stuff. That should be the focus.

Remember the vote for this exact action where you had us spin up a full display of options for the wizards and they immediately went for the smallest possible approach? This is very similar.

It doesn't matter how great they should think we are, just that they don't know our name. Some things take time and simply can't be rushed effectively. Make a good first impression to link our actions too, explain what we're here to do, and at most make reference to a desire for further cooperation.

If we keep making the same sort of mistake we're highly likely to see the same sort of problems.

BronzeTongue · Nov 23, 2024

Degorium said:
When I say cartoon villain I just mean someone who is on the side of destroy reality or teaming up with man eating monsters or tackling all the commit mass murder or hypnotism or whatever right off the jump.

There's the thing the metaphysical nature of Law breaking almost certainly has to do with the intent behind your law break and how it affects you because believing wholeheartedly it is okay to kill in defense of your own life means you are more likely to kill and defense of your own life and probably contrive situations where you kill in defense of your own life this is inherently and intrinsically different than killing because you find it convenient good or fun. Both of them are still lawbreaking but one of them is definitely leading to cartoonishly evil Behavior way earlier than the other.

The books allow for the recapture of the ones that are essentially defending themselves as on some level people who are defending themselves don't mind turning themselves in as long as they believe they'll get a fair shake. Which between the books and the Doom of Damocles now seems way more likely because before it's either die on your feet or die on your knees.

Which eventually leads to large conspiracies of kind of semi-stable warlocks attempting to destroy the white Council because they don't want to be killed for something they don't view as their fault.

Intent sort of matters, but it's canon you could burn down a building without knowing anyone was inside but if it kills someone you'll get hit with black magic corruption.

Magical corruption is not fair in the way paradox or cancer aren't fair. If you kill a human with magic it hits you back in a way that matters. Some people can tolerate that better than others based on context, but the laws aren't written and enforced so starkly for fun. The vast majority of the time even if the wizard in question was unequivocally in the right they still crack in a homicidally dangerous way.

If this wasn't how it worked then the law would account for that. See how the law on time magic is specifically against going backwards in time anything else is fair game.

A book of rules written by Rome era peasant and Odin, the god of war who collects people good at killing others, isn't going to lack nuance on when it's appropriate to kill.

The Wardens murder people who killed purely in self defense and were obviously in the moral right to do so for the same reason that they kill people who learn Jedi mind tricks. Because yes even just a little bit one time is enough.

We see the series through the eyes of protagonist privilege, which is why it looks so survivable to do these things.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Dark Reaper