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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Yog said:
We don't need to deal with her, and powers are a means to defend herself. She's a vulnerability as a pure mortal. One Harry cannot really afford, and Maggie either.
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So we kill her. :)
If we give her brasspire powers everyone will think she's working for us and we're responsible for anything she causes. Also she wouldn't be that protected. Our vampires are way cooler than the other courts, but it's not like it would help her any if a Mestsulah or a Lord of Outer Night, or even just a decently competent strike team showed to kidnap her. She'll be safer as a regular human because then she won't have the excuse for getting in trouble.

P.S. Also when she gets her ass kidnapped the Red Court will get the chance study out cool new vampire template.

P.P.S. Not everyone needs to be involved with the supernatural. She's not losing anything by not being involved in a centuries long shadow war. If we want her protected we can just keep her with Maggie with our people watching over them. Which will easier if we don't give her superpowers.
 
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[X]Plan Family Intervention
-[X] Empathy Excellency if necessary
-[X] Point out she does not need vampiric powers to
-[X] Offer better powers (Inner Darkness Unleashed)
-[X]STUNT: Time to intervene. The tab of the Sprite can popping is unexpectedly loud, pulling Susan's attention back towards you. "You dont need powers for that sort of work though?" You ask with an arched brow, before counting off on one hand "The Venatori Umborum, the Church, some supernatural-adjacent police sections....Its not as rare as you think." Deliberately you take a slug from your can before continuing, meeting her eyes with yours. "But I can also give powers. If you want." You give a half-shrug, setting down the can as you do. "Its your life, and we all make our own choices."
 
I think it should really be stressed that Maggie is our first priority here. Not Susan. Yog's vote includes both.
 
EnlightenedFool said:
So we kill her. :)
If we give her brasspire powers everyone will think she's working for us and we're responsible for anything she causes. Also she wouldn't be that protected. Our vampires are way cooler than the other courts, but it's not like it would help her any if a Mestsulah or a Lord of Outer Night, or even just a decently competent strike team showed to kidnap her. She'll be safer as a regular human because then she won't have the excuse for getting in trouble.

P.S. Also when she gets her ass kidnapped the Red Court will get the chance study out cool new vampire template.

P.P.S. Not everyone needs to be involved with the supernatural. She's not losing anything by not being involved in a centuries long shadow war. If we want her protected we can just keep her with Maggie with our people watching over them. Which will easier if we don't give her superpowers.
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Many powers dont come with a signature on their origin; there's many supernatural scions out there who bear no allegiance to the person/persons they inherited power from.
And we wouldnt be offering her vampire powers anyway.

BoredMan said:
I think it should really be stressed that Maggie is our first priority here. Not Susan. Yog's vote includes both.
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We explicitly decided to be to get Susan's shit out of the way so we can then concentrate on Maggie.
Thats why we voted to talk about the exorcism thing first.
Thats why the voting options are talking about Susan.

There is no need to shoehorn Maggie into this.
 
uju32 said:
We explicitly decided to be to get Susan's shit out of the way so we can then concentrate on Maggie.
Thats why we voted to talk about the exorcism thing first.
Thats why the voting options are talking about Susan.

There is no need to shoehorn Maggie into this.
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Yog's vote addresses both. Maggie is a big part of the reason why we are here for Susan in the first place.

I didn't vote for anything back then but noted. That said I wouldn't have wanted Harry to start the approach and have her contextualize the offer in that way. I'm perfectly fine with Molly bringing it up now that Susan brought Maggie up herself though. Maggie is her daughter so I don't see it as shoehorning.
 
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EnlightenedFool said:
So we kill her. :)
If we give her brasspire powers everyone will think she's working for us and we're responsible for anything she causes. Also she wouldn't be that protected. Our vampires are way cooler than the other courts, but it's not like it would help her any if a Mestsulah or a Lord of Outer Night, or even just a decently competent strike team showed to kidnap her. She'll be safer as a regular human because then she won't have the excuse for getting in trouble.

P.S. Also when she gets her ass kidnapped the Red Court will get the chance study out cool new vampire template.

P.P.S. Not everyone needs to be involved with the supernatural. She's not losing anything by not being involved in a centuries long shadow war. If we want her protected we can just keep her with Maggie with our people watching over them. Which will easier if we don't give her superpowers.
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you know I'm kind of annoyed at everyone bringing up maggie as if susan taking her is a foregone conclusion. Adopted parents have just as much a right to a child as blood parents.
 
BoredMan said:
Yog's vote addresses both. Maggie is a big part of the reason why we are here for Susan in the first place.

I didn't vote for anything back then but noted. That said I wouldn't have wanted Harry to start the approach and have her contextualize the offer in that way. I'm perfectly fine with Molly bringing it up now that Susan brought Maggie up herself. Maggie is here daughter so I don't see it as shoehorning.
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Its not meant to.
Thats why we voted for addressing them separately in different conversations.

I mean, Harry has more or less outright told her that an enemy told him
DragonParadox said:
"So what's the price?" Susan asks the question in a tone much different from her companion.

"One hour of my time in a safe secluded location," you repeat deliberately. "I do not like people being cursed by cannibalistic monsters pretending to be gods."

"So you won't have to stay away from Maggie anymore," Harry says, it doesn't slip out, it's not an accident. It's a very deliberate choice, like stepping out from cover under fire.

There's a crack as you look down to see Susan had splintered the table, the faint lines of arcane tattoos start to show around her eyes. That's certainly a way to bring it up.

"How do you know that... how do you know?"

"Oh, same way I know most things, I got into deep trouble, then got a lucky break to get out," Harry proffers a disarming smile. "Now you can too."

"You're not angry?"

Harry sighs, putting his head in one hand, the posture somehow making him seem both larger and more fragile. "I'm not happy, but I get it. I'm a dangerous guy to know, I remember telling you that a time or ten, I'm an even more dangerous guy to be a dad. But here I am and here you are. We've got to make it work now. It's not about how I feel."

One of the less used aspects of sharpening your senses like you had was being able to read not just faces, but lips which is how you now read Tiffany: 'Now she wishes they were still fucking.'

You feign kicking her under the table.
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She knows that Maggie is why we're here.
We're just deliberately clearing other things out of the way so that it doesnt give the appearance of trying to use a family member to exert influence.

Thats why we're deliberately not linking any of our offers with Maggie.
Or mentioning them in the same conversation.
 
also gonna note the red court getting anything other than vulnerabilities out of a brass court captured thing is fucking ridiculous. They can't make anything valuable from our people or people we turn into things than they could with yomi bullshit. Splats are not very good with taking shit from other splats and they sure as hell wouldn't get anything actually valuable from our people without centuries of study.
 
BoredMan said:
The problem is that Rampires or other enemies of the White Council may take Maggie not Susan.
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that doesn't mean anything they'd do that if she was with susan anyways. We'd be relocating maggie in every situation what does that have to do with taking her away from them or susan getting custody? As far as I'm concerned unless the adopted parents give up on maggie then susan shouldn't be taking maggie under her own custody period so much as get visitation.
 
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uju32 said:
Many powers dont come with a signature on their origin; there's many supernatural scions out there who bear no allegiance to the person/persons they inherited power from.
And we wouldnt be offering her vampire powers anyway.
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We're offering Inner Darkness Recast. Which is essentially upgraded white courts vampires. It's obviously ours. The White Council already thinks of Olivia as a brass court vampire.

uju32 said:
We explicitly decided to be to get Susan's shit out of the way so we can then concentrate on Maggie.
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So why are we getting bogged down in her drama? We are not here to recruit her so why are we offering to give her Molly brand superpowers.

firefrog600 said:
that doesn't mean anything they'd do that if she was with susan anyways. We'd be relocating maggie in every situation what does that have to do with taking her away from them or susan getting custody? As far as I'm concerned unless the adopted parents give up on maggie they susan shouldn't be taking maggie under her own custody period so much as get visitation.
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We are only here because Harry has a big emotional thing tied up with Susan. We all know we're going to social-fu the adoptive parents and move the whole family, so their opinion is irrelevant.

The problem here is that Susan has her own emotional clusterfuck with Harry and for some reason our solution to our friends ex being abrasive is 'give her superpowers'.
 
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firefrog600 said:
that doesn't mean anything they'd do that if she was with susan anyways. We'd be relocating maggie in every situation what does that have to do with taking her away from them or susan getting custody? As far as I'm concerned unless the adopted parents give up on maggie then susan shouldn't be taking maggie under her own custody period so much as get visitation.
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Were you talking about in story or the readers? Looking at your original post that I responded to it doesn't make much sense. None of the readers as far as I can see have talked about Susan like she'd be taking Maggie.

uju32 said:
She knows that Maggie is why we're here.
We're just deliberately clearing other things out of the way so that it doesnt give the appearance of trying to use a family member to exert influence.

Thats why we're deliberately not linking any of our offers with Maggie.
Or mentioning them in the same conversation.
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I'll need to come back to this later but I'm changing my vote for now.

[X]Plan Family Intervention
 
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firefrog600 said:
you know I'm kind of annoyed at everyone bringing up maggie as if susan taking her is a foregone conclusion. Adopted parents have just as much a right to a child as blood parents.
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She's not adopted, she's fostered.They arent the same thing.

Legally, I guarantee that it wasnt done under any sort of legal procedure.
One of the blood parents was alive and wasnt informed.
If it showed up in any court system, Harry would have an overriding claim.
EnlightenedFool said:
We're offering Inner Darkness Recast. Which is essentially upgraded white courts vampires. It's obviously ours. The White Council already thinks of Olivia as a brass court vampire.
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No its not.
IDU manifests differently depending on intent; we used it on our clones, and gave them fomor powers, not vampire powers.
We can just as easily bestow the same type of fomor powers.

And the White Council can be wrong.
Olivia, and everyone else, is just someone with an Investment.
EnlightenedFool said:
So why are we getting bogged down in her drama? We are not here to recruit her so why are we offering to give her Molly brand superpowers.
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Because she's Maggie's mother and that explicitly has a bearing on her welfare.
Because her consent smooths relocating the child.
Because Harry cares about her opinion.
Because you can kill Maggie by using her mother as an arcane focus for a magic ritual.
 
uju32 said:
She's not adopted, she's fostered.They arent the same thing.

Legally, I guarantee that it wasnt done under any sort of legal procedure.
One of the blood parents was alive and wasnt informed.
If it showed up in any court system, Harry would have an overriding claim.

No its not.
IDU manifests differently depending on intent; we used it on our clones, and gave them fomor powers, not vampire powers.
We can just as easily bestow the same type of fomor powers.

And the White Council can be wrong.
Olivia, and everyone else, is just someone with an Investment.

Because she's Maggie's mother and that explicitly has a bearing on her welfare.
Because her consent smooths relocating the child.
Because Harry cares about her opinion.
Because you can kill Maggie by using her mother as an arcane focus for a magic ritual.
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Wtf does law have to do with this? And I don't care if it's fostered or adopted I'm saying these people SHOULD have as much say since they care about and have raised her. We could legally do almost anything with some basis and the fact we are an exalt we could get shit running. Though somewhat fair kinda weird they had her so long but I mean we are gonna have to move the whole of them anyways since you know red court reprisal is a possibility if their involved with us or not.
BoredMan said:
Were you talking about in story or the readers? Looking at your original post that I responded to it doesn't make much sense. None of the readers as far as I can see have talked about Susan like she'd be taking Maggie.


I'll need to come back to this later but I'm changing my vote for now.

[X]Plan Family Intervention
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Both Susan is annoying me in the way she says it and I'm annoyed at commenters acting like we can just take her without letting the say of the people who've raised her so far get a say in raising her.
 
uju32 said:
She's not adopted, she's fostered.They arent the same thing.

Legally, I guarantee that it wasnt done under any sort of legal procedure.
One of the blood parents was alive and wasnt informed.
If it showed up in any court system, Harry would have an overriding claim.

No its not.
IDU manifests differently depending on intent; we used it on our clones, and gave them fomor powers, not vampire powers.
We can just as easily bestow the same type of fomor powers.

And the White Council can be wrong.
Olivia, and everyone else, is just someone with an Investment.

Because she's Maggie's mother and that explicitly has a bearing on her welfare.
Because her consent smooths relocating the child.
Because Harry cares about her opinion.
Because you can kill Maggie by using her mother as an arcane focus for a magic ritual.
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Fairly sure it takes a big blood ritual for killing someone related to someone. At least for most not to say it couldn't be done but it's definitely harder than killing someone's with their own blood.
 
uju32 said:
Because she's Maggie's mother and that explicitly has a bearing on her welfare.
Because her consent smooths relocating the child.
Because Harry cares about her opinion.
Because you can kill Maggie by using her mother as an arcane focus for a magic ritual.
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(This is a really good comment.)
None of that is best dealt with giving her superpowers. Relocate to Chicago and assign her a bodyguard. I feel like I'm going insane. She's being an asshole so we're placating her by offering her superpowers. We don't need to do this. She's already going to do what we want her to. Get an exorcism and take us to Molly.
 
EnlightenedFool said:
(This is a really good comment.)
None of that is best dealt with giving her superpowers. Relocate to Chicago and assign her a bodyguard. I feel like I'm going insane. She's being an asshole so we're placating her by offering her superpowers. We don't need to do this. She's already going to do what we want her to. Get an exorcism and take us to Molly.
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Given if we are worried about our own time we can also just give her permission for cybernetics from our hell. I mean I'm not really of the opinion of caring about the power she gets or needs.
 
firefrog600 said:
Wtf does law have to do with this? And I don't care if it's fostered or adopted I'm saying these people SHOULD have as much say since they care about and have raised her. We could legally do almost anything with some basis and the fact we are an exalt we could get shit running. Though somewhat fair kinda weird they had her so long but I mean we are gonna have to move the whole of them anyways since you know red court reprisal is a possibility if their involved with us or not.

Both Susan is annoying me in the way she says it and I'm annoyed at commenters acting like we can just take her without letting the say of the people who've raised her so far get a say in raising her.
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Adoption is a legal process. One that requires certain conditions to be legal. I guarantee this child of two US citizens has not been adopted by a Guatemalan family.
They are fostering her. Secretly.

Foster parents rights < Blood parents/relatives rights < The interests of the child in question.
Thats how its always worked in order of precedence.

And yes, we are going to have to move all of them anyway. But that doesnt mean the same destination.
If the Mendozas dont want to go to Chicago or Sanctuary, we will figure out somewhere else they are comfortable going to.
Doesnt mean Maggie accompanies them. The kid has bespoke security needs.

firefrog600 said:
Fairly sure it takes a big blood ritual for killing someone related to someone. At least for most not to say it couldn't be done but it's definitely harder than killing someone's with their own blood.
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It requires a big blood ritual if you are trying to kill everyone in that person's bloodline.
If you're simply trying to go up one degree of separation, its going to be a much more modest operation.
When Lord Raith had Maggie LeFay killed, he didnt even have a relative of hers as a focus.
 
EnlightenedFool said:
(This is a really good comment.)
None of that is best dealt with giving her superpowers. Relocate to Chicago and assign her a bodyguard. I feel like I'm going insane. She's being an asshole so we're placating her by offering her superpowers. We don't need to do this. She's already going to do what we want her to. Get an exorcism and take us to Molly.
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She's an adult woman, and she doesnt want to go back to Chicago because she feels she would be abandoning a mission here. Le Shrug. We dont make decisions for other people, we simply do our best to mitigate consequences.

Do remember? It takes a fair bit of brass to leave a life of comfort in the US to come scrabble in Latin America as a hunted fugitive in an unpaid job for five years and counting. And its worth remembering that she could have terminated the pregnancy and saved herself the stress of all this. She didnt.

She's been effective enough that the Mendozas, an unrelated family, took in her child to raise her at their own expense and risk.

Her choices are mildly inconvenient for us. But they arent actually ill-considered.
We gave Olivia superpowers on less justification, and are planning to do the same for our brother.
So why not her?

At least we know what she will be doing with it.
 
uju32 said:
Adoption is a legal process. One that requires certain conditions to be legal. I guarantee this child of two US citizens has not been adopted by a Guatemalan family.
They are fostering her. Secretly.

Foster parents rights < Blood parents/relatives rights < The interests of the child in question.
Thats how its always worked in order of precedence.

And yes, we are going to have to move all of them anyway. But that doesnt mean the same destination.
If the Mendozas dont want to go to Chicago or Sanctuary, we will figure out somewhere else they are comfortable going to.
Doesnt mean Maggie accompanies them. The kid has bespoke security needs.


It requires a big blood ritual if you are trying to kill everyone in that person's bloodline.
If you're simply trying to go up one degree of separation, its going to be a much more modest operation.
When Lord Raith had Maggie LeFay killed, he didnt even have a relative of hers as a focus.
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I'd be horrified if they just gave her up uju and I'm talking from an emotional level I literally just told you I don't care about the laws. Nor do I believe those laws are morally correct. Also Maggie is no more protected with Susan or harry than she was with them.
 
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uju32 said:
We gave Olivia superpowers on less justification, and are planning to do the same for our brother.
So why not her?
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Olivia is our friend and Daniel (also who said we're giving him IDU) is family. We're also going to be in close proximity and probably the ones actually giving them missions. Susan is a stranger and we don't owe her anything. We have social fu. Give her a million dollars, I don't care. The only thing I want is to not give her superpowers. We don't get anything out of it. We don't need to protect her. If she doesn't have superpowers she can't into trouble in the first place.
 
firefrog600 said:
I'd be horrified if they just gave her up uju and I'm talking from an emotional level I literally just told you I don't care about the laws. Nor do I believe those laws are morally correct. Also Maggie is no more protected with Susan or harry than she was with them.
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I lived in West Africa for years, and its largely unremarkable for one family to send one or more of their children to be fostered by another for several years, and later return, for a variety of reasons, from economic to educational to stability.
It may be out of your lived experience, but its the reality for many people.

And no, you're wrong.
Now that her father and great-grandfather's enemies know her name and face? She's a lot more protected with Harry and Tiffany and Mouse than she is with a mundane Guatemalan family.

Hell, she's better protected with Susan, who is an actual combat vet at this point.
But Susan is clear about not wanting to retire to raise a child, and I dont think Harry or Tiffany is in the right headspace to do so either.

So my Plan A is to move the entire family to Chicago where we can keep an eye on them.
Assuming the Mendozas consent.
My Plan B is to follow canon and guilt Michael + Charity into caring for her.
EnlightenedFool said:
Olivia is our friend and Daniel (also who said we're giving him IDU) is family. We're also going to be in close proximity and probably the ones actually giving them missions. Susan is a stranger and we don't owe her anything. We have social fu. Give her a million dollars, I don't care. The only thing I want is to not give her superpowers. We don't get anything out of it. We don't need to protect her. If she doesn't have superpowers she can't into trouble in the first place.
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Being our friend is not a qualification for superpowers. Izzy and Alex dont have superpowers.
We arent giving Daniel IDU, but we are giving him superpowers.

Susan being a stranger is exactly why I have no issue with it; I dont have to worry about DPoE's effects on our social relationship. She doesnt want a million dollars. A million dollars wont keep her alive in her chosen line of work.
Superpowers might.

And from our PoV, making her a harder target saves us trouble, because Harry will go to her aid if she is in danger or asks for help. And we will go to Harry's aid.
 
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