Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

500-2000 are the approximations Molly has heard
Thats tiny.
Probably because I expect there is significant attrition among rebel halfbloods, especially given the sort of stressful situations that being an insurgent puts you in.

One slip, one loss of control, and a halfblood will drain someone to death, die and become a Red themselves.
Two deaths, both of the innocent sacrifice who was killed, and the halfblood who was turned/replaced by his Hunger.

=====
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 13, 2024 at 3:05 AM, finished with 82 posts and 27 votes.

  • [X] Plan first one is free
    -[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    --[X] Pending other more mass-producible options, of which there might be several, but which either require testing, or expensive and hard to get reagents to setup.
    --[X] As one of the options... Fetch me some napkins, please.
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."
    [X] Still free, it will just take a while
    [X] Plan Slow and Steady, or Not
    -[X] Still free, it will just take a while
    -[X] Those who don't want to take a number, can purchase your free time.
    --[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."



I am going to ask people to rethink their votes on this topic.
There is nothing that we can get the Fellowship to give us that they wont give us for free if they trust us, or which we cant get for ourselves anyway.

Not to mention that, if we are charging the Fellowship for this, we also have to figure out what to pay Tiffany for her assistance.
And no, information about Red Court operations in South America dont count.

We didnt charge the god we rescued. We didnt charge the Demon of Las Vegas
We didnt charge the US govt for Boston.
Charging people who are poorer than all those entities is at best questionable.

And is frankly bad PR for a Catholic girl who still idolizes her paladin father, and still has that whole archdevil image to deal with.


Thats my final argument.
Need to go to bed.
Night y'all
 
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1) They carry out operations against the Red Court, but they dont swing at the big dogs. They do outreach to halfbloods and try to expose Red Court operations where they would be forced to stop. Their terminal sanction targets are generally street and middle management. The highest we know they have ever tried was for Paolo Ortega.

And their penetration is nowhere as good as you appear to think.

6) Let me try and explain this once more:
The Fellowship is an insurgency not a nationstate. It doesnt get to piggyback on nationstate resources like the Reds can do.

It has limited resources.
Limited shooters, limited spies, limited fundraisers. Limited lore.
People training new recruits arent doing field ops. People doing admin work arent doing espionage.

And they have to do all this while trying to dodge the attention of both the Red Court and mortal authorities, because more than a minority of the Fellowship have been put on mortal watchlists by the Reds as criminals and terrorists.
Thats why Susan was arrested by the FBI in Changes.

Any demands would require that they pull people off those existing jobs specifically to cater to Molly's demands means they have less resources for other work.
Just the additional overhead necessary to scrub any intel of its sourcing materially degrades their capabilities.

This is not Sanctuary, where you have tens of thousands of experts to draw on.
Its not even the Fae Courts.

8) Disagree strongly.
There was once upon a time when the Fellowship might have been a useful source of intel in South America, but that passed when Molly got a fucking planet as a Background to draw on, and went up to Essence 4.

Their value is as PR and maybe tripwires.
That is not helped by trying to squeeze them as a captive market in the middle of their war.
Its of no value to Molly personally, and it starts out any relationship on the wrong footing.


Not to mention that, since we might well need Tiffany's help with this when dealing with the older Halfbloods so they dont die of old age after exorcism, it complicates the accounting even further.
You do realize if they are as useless as you are painting them to be as hopeless as you are painting them to be as structurally and strategically worthless as you are painting them. Than it is infinitely a better use of our time to focus on cleansing the red court and then come back to them later you understand that right.

They are literally a symptom to a larger issue if they are exactly as pathetic as you are painting than they are not worth engaging with they're not worth spending any level of resource beyond the bare minimum and our time is not a bare minimum resource.

If your description of them is right they're not a third rate or even fourth rate power there are fifth rate power with dreams of being third. That would be an infinite drain on our limited Essence time and willpower in comparison to just killing their makers and then circling back later.

Nothing you're saying about Goodwill is wrong it's just Goodwill that is immediately Wasted and is immediately revealed to be self-indulgent and how much time and effort it takes is feeding your ego and not actually helping anyone. Putting possibly literally thousands of hours of our time which can be spent crafting literal protections for all of reality into helping them individually is a waste by the metrics that you are setting.

Forget charging them we should not engage with them whatsoever and then come to them once we're finished with the red Court because these people have nothing to offer and we have no ability to help them in any real capacity that doesn't put thousands of other people in danger because every time we cleanse one of them we would indeed be putting thousands of people in danger.
 
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Thats tiny.
Probably because I expect there is significant attrition among rebel halfbloods, especially given the sort of stressful situations that being an insurgent puts you in.

One slip, one loss of control, and a halfblood will drain someone to death, die and become a Red themselves.
Two deaths, both of the innocent sacrifice who was killed, and the halfblood who was turned/replaced by his Hunger.

Yep most of the Fewllowship isn't halfbloods. Being infected isn't like the Hunger of the White Court, it isn't symbiotic and doesn't want you to survive, it's the enemy inside, it is walking around with a spiritual xenomorph that wants to wear your skin.
 
In order

1) They carry out operations against the Red Court, but they dont swing at the big dogs. They do outreach to halfbloods and try to expose Red Court operations where they would be forced to stop. Their terminal sanction targets are generally street and middle management. The highest we know they have ever tried was for Paolo Ortega.

And their penetration is nowhere as good as you appear to think.

Notably, they didnt hear a peep about when and where Maggie was kidnapped to in Changes, they had no idea why Chitchen Itza was planned, nor did they have any idea that the Red Court was going to wipe them out in Changes until they started having HQs and safehouses hit by kill teams.


2) Exactly.
She has no reason to charge them anything at all for this. She has no need to charge them anything for this, and it actively degrades their capabilities against a mutual enemy. Not to mention the social effects.



3) No its not.
Its like offering a Third World country excess COVID-19 vaccines that you would otherwise have to throw away, but insisting they pay US retail prices for it. Its a dick move IMO.


4-5)The only thing that disabled Porter was a greater akuma with preptime, and it roflstomped the Jade Dogs as well.
And we didnt have to rescue Porter.

Nothing that gets past Porter is even going to be slowed by the Jade Dogs.
And we could have moved the Jade Dogs to Sanctuary if we wanted to and replaced them with actual professional Sanctuary troops with military hardware.

We didnt because the Jade Dogs arent here at Last Station for security, they are there for PR and community outreach to the darker side of Chicago's supernatural underworld.
Just like our association with Cauldron is for community outreach to the lighter side of Chicago's supernatural scene.



6) Let me try and explain this once more:
The Fellowship is an insurgency not a nationstate. It doesnt get to piggyback on nationstate resources like the Reds can do.

It has limited resources.
Limited shooters, limited spies, limited fundraisers. Limited lore.
People training new recruits arent doing field ops. People doing admin work arent doing espionage.

And they have to do all this while trying to dodge the attention of both the Red Court and mortal authorities, because more than a minority of the Fellowship have been put on mortal watchlists by the Reds as criminals and terrorists.
Thats why Susan was arrested by the FBI in Changes.

Any demands would require that they pull people off those existing jobs specifically to cater to Molly's demands means they have less resources for other work.
Just the additional overhead necessary to scrub any intel of its sourcing materially degrades their capabilities.

This is not Sanctuary, where you have tens of thousands of experts to draw on.
Its not even the Fae Courts.



7)We have only passed Crown-derived info to people we trust enough to know about it, or after we've laundered the Crown info sufficiently that its origins are obscured beyond "nebulous"
Even hinting that we knew shit was a major problem while we were dealing with the Hollow Man conspiracy.


8) Disagree strongly.
There was once upon a time when the Fellowship might have been a useful source of intel in South America, but that passed when Molly got a fucking planet as a Background to draw on, and went up to Essence 4.

Their value is as PR and maybe tripwires.
That is not helped by trying to squeeze them as a captive market in the middle of their war.
Its of no value to Molly personally, and it starts out any relationship on the wrong footing.


Not to mention that, since we might well need Tiffany's help with this when dealing with the older Halfbloods so they dont die of old age after exorcism, it complicates the accounting even further.

1) So your argument now is that they do but that the intel they have will be of no use to us now and forevermore? Not buying it. Especially since we have a QM post that the White Council are doing better against the Reds this time around and they work with the Fellowship in canon exchanging info to an extent.


2) Everything you just said I disagree with for reasons previously elaborated upon. You either aren't comprehending my postings or you just disagree so ignore what im saying. I won't say anymore on this.


3) Horrible comparison. There is definitely a disconnect here that becomes more and more apparent with every analogy used. Not going to bother anymore.


4-5) The Jade Dogs are there for multiple reasons not just PR. Monsters that lurk under Chicago may run into them for example and then get reported to us if not dealt with. Those whampires and ghouls and such that found their way to the LS may very well have preyed upon innocents had they not found Mercy in Servitude through the Jade Dogs. Which means Chicago is safer in general. It's simply factual that Porter can better keep the place safe and secure with more hands as opposed to being by himself. Action economy is a thing and he can't be everywhere.

6) I don't believe you've been comprehending my post. Nevermind.

7) Exactly. Other people can do that to obscure their sources if deemed necessary. Molly isn't the only one capable of that.

8) Okay. I disagree.

Not to mention that, if we are charging the Fellowship for this, we also have to figure out what to pay Tiffany for her assistance.
No we do not. We have an entirely different relationship with her. She is a member of our circle, we spend XP on her.

False equivalency.
 
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[X] Plan Slow and Steady, or Not
-[X] Still free, it will just take a while
-[X] Those who don't want to take a number, can purchase your free time.
--[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
 
3) No its not.
Its like offering a Third World country excess COVID-19 vaccines that you would otherwise have to throw away, but insisting they pay US retail prices for it. Its a dick move IMO.

There's that disconnect again:

Look more closely at what is actually proposed instead of what you think we are going to.

The main arguments are the equivalent of giving your excess covid vaccines and asking for you to pay each one for not even a fraction of the price, not pay it at full retail price.

You are arguing against a position nobody holds.

There is nothing that we can get the Fellowship to give us that they wont give us for free if they trust us, or which we cant get for ourselves anyway.

And by making those things they would gave given anyway into a *price*, we avoid people searching for the hidden cost and reduce the feeling of being in debt towards us.

I don't know for you, but I see obtaining and the using the things *for free* as this talks about as more dishonest than outright telling we will ask for some help.

And is frankly bad PR for a Catholic girl who still idolizes her paladin father, and still has that whole archdevil image to deal with.

I don't see it.

The fae would see it as better if its a transaction since that's their whole deal.

The white council has just seen in detail how we work.

The library of congress isn't going to care and also already know how we work by now.

Besides, giving things *for free* in the context of having an arch devil image is more suspicious, not less.
 
No we do not. We have an entirely different relationship with her.
No on this one I think he's right I can imagine it now.

" You want me on standby as you attempt to purge or cleanse these beings that can be made on a whim. Anywhere from 500 to 2,000 of them when you can only cleanse 12 if you do literally nothing else per day. Well I can't assume to understand why you think this is a good use of your time but I will require payment as what you're suggesting is me standing around for hundreds of days so I will need something so I can live while you indulge in this hobbyist activism of yours."
 
No on this one I think he's right I can imagine it now.

" You want me on standby as you attempt to purge or cleanse these beings that can be made on a whim. Anywhere from 500 to 2,000 of them when you can only cleanse 12 if you do literally nothing else per day. Well I can't assume to understand why you think this is a good use of your time but I will require payment as what you're suggesting is me standing around for hundreds of days so I will need something so I can live while you indulge in this hobbyist activism of yours."

Doesn't mean we have to report this *cost* to the half bloods though.
 
Doesn't mean we have to report this *cost* to the half bloods though.
Fair enough. While I do feel like I'm partially speaking into a void I'm not going crazy thinking and these guys are a later problem right?

If they are as lacking in ability to help or assist as they seem to be suggested to be and are largely a symptom of red Court presence than it is better to come back to them later rather than attempt to help them at the moment simply because every day or hour that we spend helping them is more half-reds rather than mustering our army in South America and storming locations in central and South America ourselves which actively decapitates the leadership of the red court and stops the production of half Reds.

It feels and seems to me that helping them would be humanitarian and good but it is not efficient and is largely indulgent rather than actually helpful. Nothing about the situation that made St Giles an organization is changed by exercising their membership and we can only do one per hour and five Essence. While an unknown amount can be turned in that same period of time with not no cost I assume it cost them some level of blood but blood isn't Essence and there's always more blood.

That's not just me right?
 
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With all due respect, 2000 is too much. Even 500 is too much. We won't ask them for too much. We just have to limit the battles we can win simultaneously. Honestly, if you don't charge, then set deadlines! Maybe a little every month. Just don't screw up the schedule when we can help tens of times more than here just by doing something else.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Nov 13, 2024 at 5:25 AM, finished with 94 posts and 27 votes.

  • [X] Plan first one is free
    -[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    --[X] Pending other more mass-producible options, of which there might be several, but which either require testing, or expensive and hard to get reagents to setup.
    --[X] As one of the options... Fetch me some napkins, please.
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."
    [X] Still free, it will just take a while
    [X] Plan Slow and Steady, or Not
    -[X] Still free, it will just take a while
    -[X] Those who don't want to take a number, can purchase your free time.
    --[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."

I can't remember off the top of my head which quest I was following that counted an option and the same option with an extra cost free bit added on together, only counting a given voter once, for purposes of determining what won. Was it this one?
 
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There's that disconnect again:

Look more closely at what is actually proposed instead of what you think we are going to.

The main arguments are the equivalent of giving your excess covid vaccines and asking for you to pay each one for not even a fraction of the price, not pay it at full retail price.

You are arguing against a position nobody holds.



And by making those things they would gave given anyway into a *price*, we avoid people searching for the hidden cost and reduce the feeling of being in debt towards us.

I don't know for you, but I see obtaining and the using the things *for free* as this talks about as more dishonest than outright telling we will ask for some help.



I don't see it.

The fae would see it as better if its a transaction since that's their whole deal.

The white council has just seen in detail how we work.

The library of congress isn't going to care and also already know how we work by now.

Besides, giving things *for free* in the context of having an arch devil image is more suspicious, not less.

No on this one I think he's right I can imagine it now.

" You want me on standby as you attempt to purge or cleanse these beings that can be made on a whim. Anywhere from 500 to 2,000 of them when you can only cleanse 12 if you do literally nothing else per day. Well I can't assume to understand why you think this is a good use of your time but I will require payment as what you're suggesting is me standing around for hundreds of days so I will need something so I can live while you indulge in this hobbyist activism of yours."

Fair enough. While I do feel like I'm partially speaking into a void I'm not going crazy thinking and these guys are a later problem right?

If they are as lacking in ability to help or assist as they seem to be suggested to be and are largely a symptom of red Court presence than it is better to come back to them later rather than attempt to help them at the moment simply because every day or hour that we spend helping them is more half-reds rather than mustering our army in South America and storming locations in central and South America ourselves which actively decapitates the leadership of the red court and stops the production of half Reds.

It feels and seems to me that helping them would be humanitarian and good but it is not efficient and is largely indulgent rather than actually helpful. Nothing about the situation that made St Giles an organization is changed by exercising their membership and we can only do one per hour and five Essence. While an unknown amount can be turned in that same period of time with not no cost I assume it cost them some level of blood but blood isn't Essence and there's always more blood.

That's not just me right?


I mean, I'm convinced. It's more important we end the red court outright than curing them constantly; asking them for regents or time to make Yog's conversion chamber makes sense, and asking them for 'payment' as in a service that's enough to trigger MiS seems smartest - if they 'work' for us gathering trivial info and fighting the red court (what they already do now, then they're still half vampires with powers, but (at no Essence/time cost) they aren't at real risk of becoming xenomorphs. Given the opportunity cost, it does make sense to charge them for anything more than that, simply because we fix most of their problems by giving them orders, and any 'cure large groups of people' that we personally do is indulgent. The payment makes it clear our time is valuable, and prevents us from dumping all our AP here until we've killed the red court.

[X] Plan first one is free
-[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
--[X] Pending other more mass-producible options, of which there might be several, but which either require testing, or expensive and hard to get reagents to setup.
--[X] As one of the options... Fetch me some napkins, please.

-[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."


We're still obviously trying to help - there's just a price. It should help deal with 'where's the hidden price tag' speculation.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Nov 13, 2024 at 11:40 AM, finished with 99 posts and 31 votes.

  • [X] Plan first one is free
    -[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    --[X] Pending other more mass-producible options, of which there might be several, but which either require testing, or expensive and hard to get reagents to setup.
    --[X] As one of the options... Fetch me some napkins, please.
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."
    [X] Still free, it will just take a while
    [X] Plan Slow and Steady, or Not
    -[X] Still free, it will just take a while
    -[X] Those who don't want to take a number, can purchase your free time.
    --[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    [X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
    -[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."

Would any of the people who voted for just one of Still Free and Plan Slow and Steady be willing to include the other in their vote? We're tied at the moment.
 
Would any of the people who voted for just one of Still Free and Plan Slow and Steady be willing to include the other in their vote? We're tied at the moment.

Actually, I did a manage vote and this is the result:
Adhoc vote count started by Nyarky on Nov 13, 2024 at 11:51 AM, finished with 100 posts and 31 votes.


Not tied, Yog's plan is winning by one.

And those that vote for plan slow and steady are also already voting for the base option, as it is a more detailed version of it.

Edit:

All options are counted together because there is no essence use in any plans, that is how Dragon counts for this quest.
 
How does that mechanically work with the tally system? I'm not seeing it.

Once you have done your tally, the manage vote button at the bottom next to insert as new post.

Then you drag the option you want to move around and if you want to have it count with another, you move it below the other option so that there is a little indent? (a little like subvotes look like) not sure how to describe it, but it is easy to see when it happens.

I can understand why you wouldn't find it, it is finicky and requires moving it till it works somehow.
 
[X] Plan first one is free
-[X] The Fellowship has skills, knowledge, you could do with the help while setting up your operations on Earth
--[X] Pending other more mass-producible options, of which there might be several, but which either require testing, or expensive and hard to get reagents to setup.
--[X] As one of the options... Fetch me some napkins, please.
-[x][Stunt]"An hour of my time is becoming a more valuable commodity constantly. I have many other things that I want and need to do and many people that I am responsible for."
 
No it doesn't? I am looking at what the tally gives me:
Adhoc vote count started by Nyarky on Nov 13, 2024 at 12:27 PM, finished with 107 posts and 32 votes.


Given there was one more vote since then, the numbers lines up with what I said.

Edit:

A good chunk of those that voted for Yog's plan also voted for the base, the tally takes it into account and removes the vote that would count for two when used that way.
 
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