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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown
-[X] Use the Crown on the Current scene to ask "What are the beings disturbed by the events in this scene"
--[X] If no being that the Angel may be bound to guard against waking is being disturbed, then
---[X] Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, signal the others to keep fighting, keep the curse going
---[X] Activate Source Code Compliance Protocol
---[X] STUNT: Bright is the flame of your soul atop the mountain in the center of this foul nether realm. Like thunder is your voice, the rumble of a great Beast Upon the Mountain from before Ages past, in the language spoken before Creation itself was conceived: "Hear me, oh angel, and by the flames of my Crown know this to be true - you are mistaken, for none under your charge are roused by my words. My and mine alone is the power invoked"
--[X] If the angel is right and there is something waking up, lift the curse, and unleash the dragon:
---[X] Lift the curse, then attack
---[X]Sophia: Activate Adaptation, then teleport and attack in melee
---[X]Molly: Switch to counterspelling support. Excellency if necessary.
---[X]Others: Continue as per previous plan
---[X]STUNT: You stare for a moment then shake your head. "Just the curse?" you say, conferring mentally with your companions "Okay." And as you relax your will, Sophia vanishes, reappearing behind a Hollow Man body in the distance with her sword already midswing.
 
[X] Abide by the judgement, trust that the angel can drive Drusus off and you can recover the souls you came looking for, though it galls you to let him continue to exist

Sorry, I don't think we should defy an angel of death, Michael will be really disappointed.
 
[X]Plan Unleash The Dragon
-[X] Lift the curse, then attack
-[X]Sophia: Activate Adaptation, then teleport and attack in melee
-[X]Molly: Switch to counterspelling support. Excellency if necessary.
-[X]Others: Continue as per previous plan
-[X]STUNT: You stare for a moment then shake your head. "Just the curse?" you say, conferring mentally with your companions "Okay." And as you relax your will, Sophia vanishes, reappearing behind a Hollow Man body in the distance with her sword already midswing
 
[X] Plan: Charms Heretical
-[X] If the umbral fetid anger of your curse draws an angel of the Lord to rebut you and possibly draws the attention of things Beyond mortal ken, then you shall craft a new one from tenacity and and Iron Winds.
--[X] Scouring of the Iron wind - With a bone chilling Roar The Inferno scours the efforts of her Target with the iron gales of the Five Fold Court of Fate and the predatory Roar of the great Beasts that roam its deadly plains.
--[X] Stunt: The shadows shift and recede. In its place The Winds of your hell whip and whorl. If the shadowed hatred will not do, then you will curse him with everything you've got from your resolve at saving who you came for and tenacity at stopping this Abomination from hurting anyone else. Rolling your shoulders and taking a deep breath your face to the dead stars above. You roar. A roar so unnatural and thunderous a mix between the Roar of a thousand monsters and the grinding of a million shards of steel. That the labyrinth shakes beneath your feet and the skies quake and quiver at your exhalation.

[X] Yog
 
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FactorySmith said:
Sorry, I don't think we should defy an angel of death, Michael will be really disappointed.
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Their judgement isn't the end all be all. We know from Uriel that in regards to the OCP that is Molly they can be incorrect. Yog's vote- wouldn't be defying her it would be using the Crown to verify if she is correct then acting based of what information we get.

Edit: If she's correct we comply. If she isn't then we act to kill the HollowMan extremely powerful servant of the Outside instead of letting him escape.

It's very important to stress that the White God did not see fit to send her here to stop or warn us of walking the Ebon Dragon and that Uriel was mistaken regarding us once before.
 
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[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown
-[X] Use the Crown on the Current scene to ask "What are the beings disturbed by the events in this scene"
--[X] If no being that the Angel may be bound to guard against waking is being disturbed, then
---[X] Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, signal the others to keep fighting, keep the curse going
---[X] Activate Source Code Compliance Protocol
---[X] STUNT: Bright is the flame of your soul atop the mountain in the center of this foul nether realm. Like thunder is your voice, the rumble of a great Beast Upon the Mountain from before Ages past, in the language spoken before Creation itself was conceived: "Hear me, oh angel, and by the flames of my Crown know this to be true - you are mistaken, for none under your charge are roused by my words. My and mine alone is the power invoked"
--[X] If the angel is right and there is something waking up, lift the curse, and unleash the dragon:
---[X] Lift the curse, then attack
---[X]Sophia: Activate Adaptation, then teleport and attack in melee
---[X]Molly: Switch to counterspelling support. Excellency if necessary.
---[X]Others: Continue as per previous plan
---[X]STUNT: You stare for a moment then shake your head. "Just the curse?" you say, conferring mentally with your companions "Okay." And as you relax your will, Sophia vanishes, reappearing behind a Hollow Man body in the distance with her sword already midswing.

This is also fine, so changing my vote.
 
BoredMan said:
It was not sent here by the White God. The White God did not see fit to have an Angel warn or stop us.
The White God did see fit to have an Angel warn us against using the Crown of Eyes on an Angel. That's actually relevant here.
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At no point in the Dresden Files have we ever been told that the White God sent an angel somewhere.
Yet they do still appear and speak with the authority vested in them.

This happened in the elevator in Skin Game, it happened when Harry called Uriel, it happened when Murphy drew Amoracchius in Chitchen Itza.

BoredMan said:
It. Does. Not. Matter.
You aren't point out a fact Uju. You are simply, straight up being deceitful here and ignoring the fact that the story writer is the source of the character action in the first place.



IF AN OPTION IS PRESENTED TO US BY MOLLY'S OWN POV IT BY DEFINITION IS IN CHARACTER!!

This isn't canon Molly her thought process has been diverging and evolving for 8 or so months ever since the playerbase got a hold of her. She's been told directly by Uriel one of the strongest Angels with some of the greatest of foresight in setting, that he was mistaken in regards to her once before. It can obviously happen again.
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1) *points back at my original post*
There is a reason why we are playing Molly C, and not some rando, or even a character that died without any characterization.


2)You are the second person to make this claim this morning.
I had to go back to check, because to my recollection that wasnt a thing:
"The second reason I came here is to apologize." The words do not quite register for a moment, or maybe they just don't compute. "The power you bear the crown you wear is in part by my own design." In slow and measured cadences Heaven's Watchman and keeper of men's free will had arranged it so that you would be set before the choice of green flame in the depths of Arctis Tor. "The Outsider some call Nemesis had planned to corrupt you and while there were still paths by which you remained beyond their grip, they grew ever more arduous but by their own design a path I had not anticipated was opened when you were brought to that place. I nudged its thoughts more to the Starborn, the wizard Harry Dresden of all the evils it might work if it could turn you into his downfall..."

"You can influence its mind?" you ask, leaning over the coffee table. Just because you are not getting any power out of this does not mean you don't want to know.

"Only in the manner that one might influence the mind of any foe by presenting it with circumstances that nudge its thought processes one way or another," Uriel continued. "Regardless it was distracted, when Harry Dresden, Thomas Raith, Karin Murphy and..." he tilts his head towards your mother in a way that is almost natural. "Charity faced was almost purely the Eldest Fetch, though its ultimate purpose was of its puppet-master. Why would it not wish to free what seemed a demon of Yomi?"

"Mom its OK, I'm fine," you mouth, seeing her pale as white as a sheet. Uriel is still talking though. Oh right the apology bit.

"I knew that it smelled foul but might yet burn fair, I knew that it would mend the wound upon your mind and magic, but I did not know of the weight that would be set upon your shoulders this day. For that you have my apology for whatever comfort you might gain from it. "
Uriel claimed ignorance of some of the ramifications of arranging for her to be Exalted.
He didnt say he made a mistake.

Its like apologizing to a caregiver for their having to spend sleepless nights helping with a baby because you didnt anticipate it, but still thinking they were the best person for the job.


3) As to the accusations of deception?
Feel free to disagree with me, but please do not do this again.
Its impossible to play games with people who call you a liar or arguing in bad faith.

firefrog600 said:
fairly sure dp nerfed angels uju.
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The QM is deliberately coy about large parts of the underlying worldbuilding because [SPOILERS]
Which is their prerogative, of course, but they have never been clear about where angels are supposed to rank on this, besides the whole argument about equating Nemesis and Uriel as peer powers.

Which leaves us with Butcher's pronouncements about why angels are off the scale.

BoredMan said:
He literally did yeah. The Heaven supremacy above all else isn't canon here.
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Heaven supremacy is a pillar of the setting.
The whole point of the White God's faction being able to set and enforce rules relies on Heaven supremacy.
The entire reason the Swords work as an equalizer is because of Heaven supremacy.

None of the many, many assholes in the setting obey what rules exist out of the goodness of their hearts.

DragonParadox said:
Molly is not Odin. All I can say is this whether this is a point of etiquette or power is hard to tell and may even be an unanswerable question because at a certain level those are one and the same.
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*throw up hands*
This isnt really clarifying anything DP.
 
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DragonParadox said:
You cursed Drusus very hard he got desperate
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I mean, 8 dices is indeed a fucking lot.

Guy had all rights to be desperate.

Though I do agree with the several remarks on being annoyed at charms having catches that aren't written in the fine print.

Goldfish said:
[JK] "Uriel, Uriel, Uriel."
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...
....
.....

[x] "Uriel, Uriel, Uriel."
Though I'm also going to vote for:

[X] Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, signal the others to keep fighting, keep the curse going

I think there is a case of mistaken identity going on anyway. Which leads to also voting for:

[X] Yog

This plan is objectively superior to Uju's, if we're wrong and the Ebon Dragon really is waking up (which I don't think is the case but may as well prove it without a doubt), then the Qm already said we will get essence thanks to Secret, if we're right and the angel is wrong, the hollow man is fucked.

It's a pure win win.

fictionfan said:
We aren't really lifting the curse so much as finding a better use for our actions.
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Removing 8 dices from the enemy's pool trump practically any actions we could take.

uju32 said:
I call bullshit on this.
Molly is allowed to think what she wants, that doesnt make it true.
Especially since Infernal = Vulnerability to Holy.
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Uju, your track record on this kind of prediction is atrocious.

uju32 said:
One: Not actually true. An angel does not have to walk up to you to smite you.
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Can you please stop arguing with the QM to nerf us?

You made it quite clear you think Dresden mythos has absolute priority, the written quest and the QM's word has proven that assumption false again and again.
 
So, to summarize:
We weren't warned, possibly because it didn't seem important and Uriel couldn't predict us due to free will, possibly because he just didn't know that… wherever the Angel thinks is happening, could.
We're checking. She doesn't seem very bright, but TED is a big deal. (She actually seems asiatic - there's a reason Eb thought she was from Yomi Wan).

We probably don't get the guy if we stop SSCing him. He's far away and stupidly powerful.

I want him for artifact crafting. Oh, and interrogation and possible redemption. Those! Right. Yeah.

[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown
 
uju32 said:
Uriel claimed ignorance of some of the ramifications of arranging for her to be Exalted.
He didnt say he made a mistake.
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Really?

You are going there?

The angel says himself he is not all knowing and you use that to prove he is all knowing?

I mean, really really?

Uriel is saying he did make a mistake here, he didn't think this was a devil tiger exaltation and that Molly would have to bear the weight that result from that.
 
uju32 said:
Uriel claimed ignorance of some of the ramifications of arranging for her to be Exalted.
He didnt say he made a mistake.
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DragonParadox said:
Far from being offended the messenger smiled, a soft and weary thing, the most... Honest? Human? Natural? The most something expression Charity had seen him wear. "It seems like I will be getting in a lot of practice apologizing today." After a brief pause he continued. "One can't really tell... I could not tell all the secrets of a stain just from the outside, just the shape, the color of it. Only now that it has come to flower can I see that it is a rare thing precious, perilous thing even among its peers. What indeed is a crown without a kingdom, or a kingdom without subjects..."​
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He literally didn't know and made a miscalculation by underestimating the consequences of his actions. This is usually called a mistake. You usually apologize for mistakes yes. Especially when you caused them
 
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uju32 said:
*throw up hands*
This isnt really clarifying anything DP.
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The problem is Molly herself does not know and there is no way to give any kind of OOC answer without taking away from her character either in trying to figure out if it is true, or trusting in the White God. One way or the other the choice will have major significance. I don't want to cheapen it.

The best I can do is remind you guys of the few things about angels you already learned: Uriel did claim the sword probably could but should not be inside your soul, Uriel knowing some things about your Exaltation but not all etc...
 
@DragonParadox can you tell us if uriel actually said that he made a mistake, rather than using colorful language to say that he meant well and did the right thing, was 100% right and it just turned out to be a little harder for molly because of circumstances beyond his control?
 
uju32 said:
At no point in the Dresden Files have we ever been told that the White God sent an angel somewhere.
Yet they do still appear and speak with the authority vested in them.

This happened in the elevator in Skin Game, it happened when Harry called Uriel, it happened when Murphy drew Amoracchius in Chitchen Itza
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Point being.

The HollowMan is the reason she's here. She is likely lacking context on what Molly is and what she's doing.

BronzeTongue said:
The context of this fight doesn't really involve the Ebon Dragon and the power itself is a mimicry of an ability associated with a hell that has some potential connection to his remains after ages of rot.
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We check with the Crown then act based on what it tells us.

uju32 said:
2)You are the second person to make this claim this morning.
I had to go back to check, because to my recollection that wasnt a thing:
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Not even going to entertain this logic.

uju32 said:
1) *points back at my original post*
There is a reason why we are playing Molly C, and not some rando, or even a character that died without any characterization.
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uju32 said:
3) As to the accusations of deception?
Feel free to disagree with me, but please do not do this again.
Its impossible to play games with people who call you a liar or arguing in bad faith.
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1) This actually is the most irritating thing someone can do it pisses me off even more than being strawmanned. I cannot think of anything that bothers me more in Questing than what your attempting to do now.

You are attempting to limit play character agency by telling people that the thing Dragonparadox wrote for Molly is not in character for Quest Molly. Azais gave you a quote saying that all actions presented are in character.

Argue with Dragonparadox about it don't just proceed to misinform people it isn't in character when we were told it is and it was written to be.

3) I am not disagreeing with you I'm pointing out a fact. I am not stating an opinion I'm drawing attention to a fact. To deny the fact and tell people it isn't true even after the fact that its a fact was point out to you specifically by more than one person is to be deceitful.

You can't be mistaken you were made known multiple times that's it's in character and why. You saying no and then telling people otherwise.. what else am I to call that? Please enlighten me.

The fact in question. What I've already pointed out-

The option was presented by the story writer not the voters. We were then told again that all options are in character.

DragonParadox said:
All options presented are IC.
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Do you then honestly not see how claiming them to not be is deceitful when the story writer is telling us otherwise for Quest Molly?

How are you not getting this?

uju32 said:
Heaven supremacy is a pillar of the setting.
The whole point of the White God's faction being able to set and enforce rules relies on Heaven supremacy.
The entire reason the Swords work as an equalizer is because of Heaven supremacy.

None of the many, many assholes in the setting obey what rules exist out of the goodness of their hearts
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It exist but not in the way your thinking for the Quest. For example I already showed you a quote earlier which implied that Heaven and Hell deliberate rather than having rules forced upon them without recourse or issue.

DragonParadox said:
and Heaven and Hell seem to have settled on on 'fine, no one touch without penalty'. Good thing your rolls were decent or a penalty would have been incurred.
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uju32 said:
1) *points back at my original post*
There is a reason why we are playing Molly C, and not some rando, or even a character that died without any characterization.
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Would you like to comment on my comment or are you going to pretend it doesn't exist? Because you still don't seem to accept that all the choices presented are IC for Molly no matter if it goes against your personal categorization of Molly.
 
Also, just to recap: this isn't a perfect copy-paste of canon. Demonreach had exalts, and Molly has been recognized as an heir to the flame of the Empyreal Chaos, AKA Theion, AKA the Universe-Emperor who led the Primordials in making the universe.

Now, we appear to be living on a sphere, not a flat plane bounded by elemental poles. But we don't know if Creation was a universe before this one, or if this is Creation reshaped by a rebel. We don't know if Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is Cytherea, the Unconquered Sun, or a really coked out monkey who got his tie caught in his typewriter.

Molly respects and appreciates Uriel in ways relevant to her religion. He made a good impression, and many of her thoughts are religious due to her upbringing. Now, though, she has the power to learn and ask questions, and she's rebelling and doing so - not where it's requested otherwise by a recognized agent, where she's told not to by Uriel through her father, but elsewhere, given reason. She has power, and she's growing into it. That's part of this thing called 'growing up' - and while I don't think this 'verse's Ya-Ya has been presented as a Salvation War atrocity maximizer, I doubt he's perfect, given the soul-destroying nonsense that exists in-setting. And his servants certainly aren't.

That doesn't mean Molly suddenly hates God and wants to shatter the heavens and topple their thrones. It just means she isn't taking a random Angel on blind faith, this time - and maybe she'll regret it! Maybe trust here is good!

Thus, the crown. Verify, then trust, in this case. Because if we stop, an effective Arete 10 (by your own admission) mage goes back to murdering the people we care about, or escaping so he can go back to murdering the PLANET.
 
Azais said:
Would you like to comment on my comment or are you going to pretend it doesn't exist? Because you still don't seem to accept that all the choices presented are IC for Molly no matter if it goes against your personal categorization of Molly.
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Also, if you go back to DP's post stating that all actions presented to the voters by Quest Molly are in character for Quest Molly and click to see who gave it informative ratings you'll notice that Uju also left one at a timestamp before you made your post drawing attention to the quote. I don't rightly understand what's happening here but he has been aware of the post even before you brought it to his attention.
 
DragonParadox said:
There is definitely a part of Molly that is pissed off for that very reason, that is why there is a vote to ignore. Others have presented feasible reasons why an angel may behave this way, can't say more without spoilers for this very scene and also just generally the fate of the Yozis.
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I don't see them as plausible on their face, but in any case that isn't the biggest issue here. Some amount of mystery is good, but there needs to be consistent understanding of the rules for us to operate.

This situation doesn't make any sense to me even accepting the premise because it doesn't fit the abilities or agenda of Heaven, but I'm more concerned about being able to rely on the character sheet.

Our understanding of Molly's charms doesn't have to be flawless, but it's a problem if we're being randomly punished for OOC material not actually being accurate to the setting anymore.

Which is why I keep bringing up how to parse this for other charms. We can't look at a charm and say "that's Lanka's fire because it says so, which makes it safe to use" because a charm explicitly saying something doesn't make it true anymore.

What's your expectation for someone looking at the character sheet and trying to make decisions based on Molly's abilities?


Nyarky said:
Can you please stop arguing with the QM to nerf us?

You made it quite clear you think Dresden mythos has absolute priority, the written quest and the QM's word has proven that assumption false again and again.
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I think this is a disagreement on what "walking up" means. An Angel doesn't necessarily need to fight us by punching Molly in the nose, but by definition exerting it's power over her domain would be in some way entering it for the purposes of a cosmic being.

Trying technicalities like causing an explosion to happen outside her range that "happens" to hurt people inside of it is like trying to get away with killing someone by ordering a hitman to do it instead of shooting them personally.

Every court on the planet would find you guilty of murder in at least some capacity.

BoredMan said:
We check with the Crown then act based on what it tells us.
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Which is already giving him an advantage because we'll need to break concentration on SSC to use the crown.

More generally, the biggest issue I'm taking with this is not unknown information being revealed as it is "known" information being proven false.

No piece of information is implicitly more or less protected against this sort of thing than any other because they rely on the same presumption of truth for charm text.

How are we supposed to know what things we're told are true for what elements?

I genuinely don't see a difference between something like what happened here and say a perfect defense getting surprise downgraded when we try to use it against something.
 
[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown

In 99% of cases I'd advocate for Molly just following the Angel's edicts. Her faith is a major component of her characterization and I feel that she wouldn't break from it without prior justification. But there's a lot of fishiness in this particular interaction. The Angel seems to be prioritizing us over an Outsider cultist, which means either we're doing something catastrophically bad, or the Angel is misinformed. Something we know is possible from Uriel. So, I feel that its reasonable for Molly to check to see if she's doing what the Angel claims she's doing before making a decision.
 
OctarineShrike said:
[X]Plan Unleash The Dragon
-[X] Lift the curse, then attack
-[X]Sophia: Activate Adaptation, then teleport and attack in melee
-[X]Molly: Switch to counterspelling support. Excellency if necessary.
-[X]Others: Continue as per previous plan
-[X]STUNT: You stare for a moment then shake your head. "Just the curse?" you say, conferring mentally with your companions "Okay." And as you relax your will, Sophia vanishes, reappearing behind a Hollow Man body in the distance with her sword already midswing.
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From what I can tell the angel is only here because the hollow man made the case that we are using a specific curse that might cause the ebon dragon to hear it due to being at a specific weak point in reality, which might potentially be true as far as she can tell. It's only concern is stopping us from potentially waking the ebon dragon and only that. It won't stop us from attacking the hollow man so let's stop the curse and still kill the hollow man. We don't pick a fight with the angel merely doing its duty and continue to kill our enemy as we were originally doing before its arrival.

If nothing else I genuinely believe the angel is there because if nothing else the chances of the ebon dragon waking up are real, miniscule but real and the only reason it might actually hear are because we using a very specific curse at weak area of reality, if we were using the curse in another other place like say Venice or Houston then it wouldn't be a problem.
 
oarabile t said:
From what I can tell the angel is only here because the hollow man made the case that we are using a specific curse that might cause the ebon dragon to hear it due to being at a specific weak point in reality, which might potentially be true as far as she can tell. It's only concern is stopping us from potentially waking the ebon dragon and only that. It won't stop us from attacking the hollow man so let's stop the curse and still kill the hollow man. We don't pick a fight with the angel merely doing its duty and continue to kill our enemy as we were originally doing before its arrival.

If nothing else I genuinely believe the angel is there because if nothing else the chances of the ebon dragon waking up are real, miniscule but real and the only reason it might actually hear are because we using a very specific curse at weak area of reality, if we were using the curse in another other place like say Venice or Houston then it wouldn't be a problem.
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I actually switched to Yogs plan a couple hours ago if you're criticizing the plan I'm backing. Also I parsed Unleash the Dragon as doing basically what you're saying to do.
 
oarabile t said:
It won't stop us from attacking the hollow man so let's stop the curse and still kill the hollow man. We don't pick a fight with the angel merely doing its duty and continue to kill our enemy as we were originally doing before its arrival.
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The curse has shown to be extremely effective in countering and combating him. It's why he felt desperate enough to call up an Angel here. We don't have to wonder about the Ebon Dragon we can just ask and clear this up one way or the other.


BronzeTongue said:
Which is already giving him an advantage because we'll need to break concentration on SSC to use the crown.
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Oh, I wasn't quoting you to make a statement about your position just to support the belief that the Ebon Dragon probably isn't an issue here and the Angel is most likely mistaken in this instance. That said he called for the Angel probably under the belief that she'd take umbrage and act against (smite) us.

Therefore I'm reasonably confident that he'll stick around at least in the immediate term to see how this plays out before trying to run.
 
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