Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I am not saying that all Starborn are sidereal exaltation candidates. But some of them are almost certainly are, and I am willing to bet that Harry is one of them.
Yes, several people could be Sidereals, as well as several other types of Exalted, but every time I see you talk about it, you use being a Starborn as a reason when it has nothing to do with it. That's what confuses me.

I prefer to believe that he has a better chance of being a Solar, even though, in addition to my fear of more Exalted, he is ones I least want to be an Exalted, because he already has many protagonist things in him and adding another one the size of Exaltation just takes me back to the "Super Special Overpowerful Portagonist" of the first attempt at fanfic.

(Heck, I myself have the same fear of Molly being like that and I just don't feel that way because DP still manages to show that our enemies are not easy, even if this becomes more difficult as himself admitted before).
 
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Yes, several people could be Sidereals, as well as several other types of Exalted, but every time I see you talk about it, you use being a Starborn as a reason when it has nothing to do with it. That's what confuses me.

I prefer to believe that he has a better chance of being a Solar, even though, in addition to my fear of more Exalted, he is ones I least want to be an Exalted, because he already has many protagonist things in him and adding another one the size of Exaltation just takes me back to the "Super Special Overpowerful Portagonist" of the first attempt at fanfic.

(Heck, I myself have the same fear of Molly being like that and I just don't feel that way because DP still manages to show that our enemies are not easy, even if this becomes more difficult as himself admitted before).
eh dresden is barely special he doesn't have too much unique shit going for him in his series that others can't do and there are countless beings that thrash him. Heck an average ogre could beat him if it was in melee.
 
[X] Harry is silent, asking nothing

Yeah, this is a buyout attempt trying to game his pride. Note that Marcus didn't actually admit defeat either.

For that matter it didn't sound like the power on offer for solving the labyrinth was something from the Outside so much as enlightenment you get from resisting it.
 
Yes, several people could be Sidereals, as well as several other types of Exalted, but every time I see you talk about it, you use being a Starborn as a reason when it has nothing to do with it. That's what confuses me.

I prefer to believe that he has a better chance of being a Solar, even though, in addition to my fear of more Exalted, he is ones I least want to be an Exalted, because he already has many protagonist things in him and adding another one the size of Exaltation just takes me back to the "Super Special Overpowerful Portagonist" of the first attempt at fanfic.

(Heck, I myself have the same fear of Molly being like that and I just don't feel that way because DP still manages to show that our enemies are not easy, even if this becomes more difficult as himself admitted before).
Harry's signature move is surviving more shit than anyone would reasonably expect him to be capable of.
If Harry were to be Exalted, he'd be way more likely to Exalt as a Lunar than a Solar.
A No-Moon, to be exact: shamans, witches, and hoarders of wisdom.

Ancient Sorcery, definitely.

However, you cannot be both Awakened and Exalted in ExWoD.
So Harry is not going to Exalt.
He's a wizard; that's his niche in this setting, and its an already scary class.
 
Harry's signature move is surviving more shit than anyone would reasonably expect him to be capable of.
If Harry were to be Exalted, he'd be way more likely to Exalt as a Lunar than a Solar.
A No-Moon, to be exact: shamans, witches, and hoarders of wisdom.

Ancient Sorcery, definitely.

However, you cannot be both Awakened and Exalted in ExWoD.
So Harry is not going to Exalt.
He's a wizard; that's his niche in this setting, and its an already scary class.
Given the training time for wizards here is abysmal so we'll never see archmage harry.
 
Given the training time for wizards here is abysmal so we'll never see archmage harry.
Archmage is more about enlightenment, not age; most archwizards just tend to be old because it takes that long to acquire the skill, knowledge and enlightenment and other drip to count as an archwizard.

Harry though?
Protagonist privilege is in play; I would not assume that his rate of growth is anything like normal.
He's certainly gotten into scraps with more serious shit than wizards five times his age.

I mean, dude has successfully arranged the deaths of two Fae Ladies, destroyed a vampire Court, died and come back from the dead. He then successfully bound the Last Titan Ethniu in Battle Ground.
He was only 39.
 
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Archmage is more about enlightenment, not age; most archwizards just tend to be old because it takes that long to acquire the skill, knowledge and enlightenment and other drip to count as an archwizard.

Harry though?
Protagonist privilege is in play; I would not assume that his rate of growth is anything like normal.
He's certainly gotten into scraps with more serious shit than wizards five times his age.

I mean, dude successfully bound Ethniu in Battle Ground.
He was only 39.
I'm fairly sure harry is an overachiever that doesn't change by pen and paper standards harrys growth rate is abysmal its just a fact of the setting.
 
However, you cannot be both Awakened and Exalted in ExWoD.
So Harry is not going to Exalt.
He's a wizard; that's his niche in this setting, and its an already scary class
He's not awakened though that's not what Wizards are avatars aren't a thing they're modeled as Mages but they're not actually Mages.

Never mind the fact that exalts if they were willing to put in the work could pull a broken seeker and use wizard magic.
To use magic at the cost of Essence? Interesting thought. On the one hand it would make you a worse wizard than an equivalent talent since Essence has to be spent in 1 mote packets, which is vastly overkill for any magic a beginner might use, but magic is very, very flexible once you get a grip on it. So I am going to say it is a path of research you guys can take, but you should be very certain you can deal with the XP expenditure, there is a considerably higher investment to get powerful effects, more than any single path.
So I do agree I don't think he's going to be exalted but to be frank someone being a wizard isn't enough to disqualify them because Molly was also a wizard.
 
I'm fairly sure harry is an overachiever that doesn't change by pen and paper standards harrys growth rate is abysmal its just a fact of the setting.
Im guessing you mean astronomical.

Like I said, Harry is 39. The only young wizard who comes close is Carlos, who is ~9 younger than Harry is, and is, according to Harry, a bona fide prodigy of magic. I cant speak for Elaine Mallory, who is Harry's age; we dont see her casting much, but she is supposed to be in his weight class, just with somewhat different aptitudes.

Of course, Hannah Ascher is supposed to be BETTER than Harry, but thats in her specialty of fire magic.
Outside it, she's basically uneducated.

He's not awakened though that's not what Wizards are avatars aren't a thing they're modeled as Mages but they're not actually Mages.
Never mind the fact that exalts if they were willing to put in the work could pull a broken seeker and use wizard magic.
He's a wizard.
Wizards in the Dresden Files are the equivalent of Awakened.
Thats why we use Arete/Enlightenment for them.


Broken Seeker uses wizard magic because in the Dresdenverse, almost every high tier supernatural uses wizard magic.
Its not mortal magic, and their exact paradigms might be different, affecting the expression, but its wizard magic; thats why so many supernaturals from Gods to Fae can train wizards in magic.

Take a look at the fight between Ethniu and the trio of Titania, Odin and the Erlking, and Harry's reaction to it.
 
He's a wizard.
Wizards in the Dresden Files are the equivalent of Awakened.
Thats why we use Arete/Enlightenment for them.
So you're doing that thing again where you either didn't finish reading my post or felt the need to ignore it without addressing it.
So I do agree I don't think he's going to be exalted but to be frank someone being a wizard isn't enough to disqualify them because Molly was also a wizard
Molly was a wizard who was capable of casting wizard magic before she was an exalted that's not arguable point of contention. Being a wizard does not stop you from being exalted nor does being exalted to stop you truly from using wizard magic so what is your point.
 
Im guessing you mean astronomical.

Like I said, Harry is 39. The only young wizard who comes close is Carlos, who is ~9 younger than Harry is, and is, according to Harry, a bona fide prodigy of magic. I cant speak for Elaine Mallory, who is Harry's age; we dont see her casting much, but she is supposed to be in his weight class, just with somewhat different aptitudes.

Of course, Hannah Ascher is supposed to be BETTER than Harry, but thats in her specialty of fire magic.
Outside it, she's basically uneducated.


He's a wizard.
Wizards in the Dresden Files are the equivalent of Awakened.
Thats why we use Arete/Enlightenment for them.


Broken Seeker uses wizard magic because in the Dresdenverse, almost every high tier supernatural uses wizard magic.
Its not mortal magic, and their exact paradigms might be different, affecting the expression, but its wizard magic; thats why so many supernaturals from Gods to Fae can train wizards in magic.

Take a look at the fight between Ethniu and the trio of Titania, Odin and the Erlking, and Harry's reaction to it.
whats true of harry and whats true of pc's in pen and paper games are two different things. Harry can arguably be killed by the same things in the most current book as he could in book 1. Hes far far better but if he was put into wod he'd have collected the equivalent of like 30exp or something maybe a bit more since the start of the series.
 
So you're doing that thing again where you either didn't finish reading my post or felt the need to ignore it without addressing it.
I read your post. I just didnt consider it relevant.
Dresdenverse wizards pretty clearly Awaken to magic; Harry did it at 10 IIRC at a sports contest, while canon Molly did so when hiding her clothes from her mother, and ExWoD refers

Whether or not Dresdenverse wizards have MtA-style Avatars has never been relevant or come up in the series.


Molly was a wizard, but Molly wasnt Starborn; her Exalting didnt fundamentally alter supply of a limited human resource.

Harry is Starborn, one of very few survivors, and he already fills a narrative niche as the local wizard and the local Starborn, and its specifically plot-relevant to whatever template/role he is being groomed for as the Stars Come Right in the Dresdenverse, which is why I said that no, he isnt Exalting.

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whats true of harry and whats true of pc's in pen and paper games are two different things. Harry can arguably be killed by the same things in the most current book as he could in book 1. Hes far far better but if he was put into wod he'd have collected the equivalent of like 30exp or something maybe a bit more since the start of the series.
Not quite true.
Winter Knight Harry will absolutely shrug off shit that would have crippled or killed early series Harry.
Like this:
I let out a scream of defiance and drew that monster revolver from my duster even as the Genoskwa came charging toward me. The Winter mantle made me faster than I could ever have been on my own, but even so there was no time for anything but a hip shot. The Genoskwa was maybe three feet away when the gun went off, thundering like a high-powered rifle. Then the huge creature hit me like a freight train, picking me up in its onslaught like a piece of litter being towed along by the breeze, and carried me across the street and into the side of the neighbor's minivan.

Metal crashed and crunched. Glass broke. Silver lightning ran through my body without causing me any real pain. The carnivore stench of the Genoskwa filled my nose. My arms slammed against the vehicle, but I hung on to the pistol, shoved it against the creature's torso, but before I could shoot, it got hold of my wrist, its huge hands wrapping my forearm as if I'd been a toddler, and slammed it against the minivan, pinning the pistol there. Its other hand landed on my head, claws pressing into my skin as the thick fingers tightened on my skull like a nutcracker.


Skin Game Chapter 29, Page 235
When a Bigfoot uses you to break the side of a modern minivan and you dont even fucking notice it as a tactical issue, you are well into blatantly superhuman performance levels.
And assumptions of human durability or HP do not apply.

Note that the monster revolver in question that Harry was one-handing was a .500 Smith and Wessons.
Firing these:

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Nope. Strongly disagree
In Mage terms, based on his feats at the start of series Harry might have been Arete 2-3, if that, with Forces 1, Correspondence 1-2, Matter 1, Spirit 2 and a handful of Rotes to work with, and the Bob, Starborn and Leanansidhe Backgrounds.

Current gen Harry is pretty solidly Arete 5 minimum, with ranks in Forces, Correspondence, Spirit, Mind, Entropy, Prime and Matter, with relevant Rotes. Then there's the Soulfire, Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach special Merits/Backgrounds.
On top of the Mouse, Za Guard and Za Militia Backgrounds.

And the Spear of Destiny Wonder Background. And the Eye of Balor Wonder Background. And the other Instruments of the Passion Backgrounds. And the Knights of the Cross Ally Background. And the Molly Winter Lady Ally Background.
And the castle, dont forget the castle.

Man has nested Backgrounds at this point.
He's easily in triple digit XP territory right now. And I mean high triple digit territory.
 
Molly was a wizard, but Molly wasnt Starborn; her Exalting didnt fundamentally alter supply of a limited human resource.

Harry is Starborn, one of very few survivors, and he already fills a narrative niche as the local wizard and the local Starborn, and its specifically plot-relevant to whatever template/role he is being groomed for as the Stars Come Right in the Dresdenverse, which is why I said that no, he isnt Exalting.
Based on the wog there isn't actually a limited supply of them a number of them are born every era they just get picked off because they're valuable exaltation also wouldn't alter when he was born either so he would still be starborn also the Stars coming right is the sidereals whole bit.

You literally didn't address the fundamental part of what I was saying there's no reason he can't be exalted I don't believe he's going to be exalted here but being a wizard isn't actually enough to prevent it there's no spiritual component of being a wizard that prevents it from happening.
I read your post. I just didnt consider it relevant.
Dresdenverse wizards pretty clearly Awaken to magic;
They very obviously don't Awaken they have a potential that they grow into but it's born into them and they have to pursue it or not it's not an Awakening of supernal Truth where a spiritual fragment of possibly God gives them near unlimited ability to affix append and change reality. They are completely different things that is my point of it you didn't address it because obviously they're not the same thing.
 
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I read your post. I just didnt consider it relevant.
Dresdenverse wizards pretty clearly Awaken to magic; Harry did it at 10 IIRC at a sports contest, while canon Molly did so when hiding her clothes from her mother, and ExWoD refers

Whether or not Dresdenverse wizards have MtA-style Avatars has never been relevant or come up in the series.


Molly was a wizard, but Molly wasnt Starborn; her Exalting didnt fundamentally alter supply of a limited human resource.

Harry is Starborn, one of very few survivors, and he already fills a narrative niche as the local wizard and the local Starborn, and its specifically plot-relevant to whatever template/role he is being groomed for as the Stars Come Right in the Dresdenverse, which is why I said that no, he isnt Exalting.

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Not quite true.
Winter Knight Harry will absolutely shrug off shit that would have crippled or killed early series Harry.
Like this:
I let out a scream of defiance and drew that monster revolver from my duster even as the Genoskwa came charging toward me. The Winter mantle made me faster than I could ever have been on my own, but even so there was no time for anything but a hip shot. The Genoskwa was maybe three feet away when the gun went off, thundering like a high-powered rifle. Then the huge creature hit me like a freight train, picking me up in its onslaught like a piece of litter being towed along by the breeze, and carried me across the street and into the side of the neighbor's minivan.

Metal crashed and crunched. Glass broke. Silver lightning ran through my body without causing me any real pain.
The carnivore stench of the Genoskwa filled my nose. My arms slammed against the vehicle, but I hung on to the pistol, shoved it against the creature's torso, but before I could shoot, it got hold of my wrist, its huge hands wrapping my forearm as if I'd been a toddler, and slammed it against the minivan, pinning the pistol there. Its other hand landed on my head, claws pressing into my skin as the thick fingers tightened on my skull like a nutcracker.


Skin Game Chapter 29, Page 235
When a Bigfoot uses you to break the side of a modern minivan and you dont even fucking notice it as a tactical issue, you are well into blatantly superhuman performance levels.
And assumptions of human durability or HP do not apply.

Note that the monster revolver in question that Harry was one-handing was a .500 Smith and Wessons.
Firing these:

===
Nope. Strongly disagree
In Mage terms, based on his feats at the start of series Harry might have been Arete 2-3, if that, with Forces 1, Correspondence 1-2, Matter 1, Spirit 2 and a handful of Rotes to work with, and the Bob, Starborn and Leanansidhe Backgrounds.

Current gen Harry is pretty solidly Arete 5 minimum, with ranks in Forces, Correspondence, Spirit, Mind, Entropy, Prime and Matter, with relevant Rotes. Then there's the Soulfire, Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach special Merits/Backgrounds.
On top of the Mouse, Za Guard and Za Militia Backgrounds.

And the Spear of Destiny Wonder Background. And the Eye of Balor Wonder Background. And the other Instruments of the Passion Backgrounds. And the Knights of the Cross Ally Background. And the Molly Winter Lady Ally Background.
And the castle, dont forget the castle.

Man has nested Backgrounds at this point.
He's easily in triple digit XP territory right now. And I mean high triple digit territory.
I wasn't really considering backgrounds or certain merits like demonreach and winter knight. So much as attributes and skills and spheres. I'd say he might of gone up a rank in investigate maybe 2 since the beginning but hes not a supernatural investigator like sherlock hes just really good so like 4 maybe 5 dots by modern books or a while back but not 6. Firearms by modern books probably 3 dots maybe 4. I'd say his occults probably gone up by 1 but he was already fairly good towards the beginning just no worldly expert or anything. his physical attributes probably went up by 1 or maybe 2 in some cases each over the books plus whatever merits hes gotten. The winter knight package is a decent boost but its made pretty clear the damage is kind of still there but hes able to ignore more and is low level superhuman like bend iron decently easily and shrug off more. I'm fairly sure the way the books have gone about it he can shrug off more and the natural limits of his body have been loosened but there are still consequences just waiting to happen. But, I mean even a random dude with a knife if he stabbed at harry could you know kill him. Given a random dude would be decimated by harry in a fight but my point was more durability than anything. Harrys gotten a lot of tricks and shit over the books but like I'd say like 5 or 6 of book 1 harrys could beat current harry in a fight.
 
Anyways mostly unimportant my main point was for a pen and paper game you know where most campaigns in universe are like a year or two max harry is a slow grower and the peaks he can get to are not anywhere near what most pen and paper characters can. Given under wod your as likely to play a campaign where you get like 10 exp across the whole campaign as you are hundreds.
 
Based on the wog there isn't actually a limited supply of them a number of them are born every single year they just get picked off because they're valuable exaltation also wouldn't alter when he was born either so he would still be starborn also the Stars coming right is the sidereals whole bit.

You literally didn't address the fundamental part of what I was saying there's no reason he can't be exalted I don't believe he's going to be exalted here but being a wizard isn't actually enough to prevent it there's no spiritual component of being a wizard that prevents it from happening.
It doesnt say that to my understanding.

It says they are reborn.
It doesnt say they are reborn in any sort of even fashion. There arent X number of Starborn born every year.
In the Dresdenverse, they are only born at particular points in time, and the QM hasnt changed that.

Nor do we know if Starborn who fall to the Dark are replaced, or if thats a permanent loss to the population.


I did. There are absolutely narrative reasons , and we are told that Harry is specifically being groomed for something, and has been since he was born, by everyone. Mab more or less tells McCoy that to his face, that she's been more straightforward with him than the White Council has been.

We also know that in Exalted 2E, Half-Castes cant Exalt.
And I dont know what Starborn is supposed to count as.
They very obviously don't Awaken they have a potential that they grow into but it's born into them and they have to pursue it or not it's not an Awakening of supernal Truth where a spiritual fragment of possibly God gives them near unlimited ability to affix append and change reality. They are completely different things that is my point of it you didn't address it because obviously they're not the same thing.
Im not going to argue.

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I wasn't really considering backgrounds or certain merits like demonreach and winter knight. So much as attributes and skills and spheres. I'd say he might of gone up a rank in investigate maybe 2 since the beginning but hes not a supernatural investigator like sherlock hes just really good so like 4 maybe 5 dots by modern books or a while back but not 6. Firearms by modern books probably 3 dots maybe 4. I'd say his occults probably gone up by 1 but he was already fairly good towards the beginning just no worldly expert or anything. his physical attributes probably went up by 1 or maybe 2 in some cases each over the books plus whatever merits hes gotten. The winter knight package is a decent boost but its made pretty clear the damage is kind of still there but hes able to ignore more and is low level superhuman like bend iron decently easily and shrug off more. I'm fairly sure the way the books have gone about it he can shrug off more and the natural limits of his body have been loosened but there are still consequences just waiting to happen. But, I mean even a random dude with a knife if he stabbed at harry could you know kill him. Given a random dude would be decimated by harry in a fight but my point was more durability than anything. Harrys gotten a lot of tricks and shit over the books but like I'd say like 5 or 6 of book 1 harrys could beat current harry in a fight.
You should have, otherwise you have been focusing on the wrong parts of his build.
The most expensive things for a wizard/mage is their magic and the accouterments associated with it. Especially since wizards can pump physical attributes with magic if they have the relevant expertise, assuming Mage rules.

Just going from Arete 3 to Arete 5 is 70XP, IIRC.
30xp to go from Arete 3 to Arete 4, then another 40xp to go from Arete 4 to Arete 5. If you raised him to Arete 6, that would require an additional 50XP for a grand total of 120XP.

Then a new Sphere is 10xp, while increasing your spheres is 7/8(Favored/Unfavored) x current rank of (Sphere).
Assuming he's added an average of 14 dots of Spheres at a rate of 1 dot/ major book (we havent seen him use Time or Life, but prety much everything else) at Unfavored Sphere costs, thats ~110XP.

That already puts you in the ~200XP range before even beginning to look at the costs of Rotes, Merits and Backgrounds.
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The Winter Knight Mantle boosts him into blatantly superhuman physical performance.

Physically, it provides wound negation, mitigates a lot of the damage he would otherwise take AND provides a healing factor according to Harry. I've pointed out the Genoskwa using him to cave in the side of a minivan and not slowing him down, but there's also when he ran through the thermal bloom of his own soulfire-amplified fire spell without damage.

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I strongly doubt it.
Back in Cold Days, the one-ton Rawhead hit him in the back and only managed to move him across the combat theater; he rolled, and came back up fighting.

I have significant doubts about some random asshole with a knife.
Certainly he isnt getting punked by an unarmed random Marcone thug like the one who cut off his hair for Victor Sells back in Book 1 Storm Front.

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Current gen Harry tanked magical fire from 6x Black Court Elders in Battle Ground, and later in the same book he did tank the concentrated fusilade of an entire cadre of Fomor sorcerers.
He beat Lasciel!Ascher in magical duels, not once but twice.

He would murder 6x of himself from Book 1 without breaking stride.
 
It doesnt say that to my understanding.

It says they are reborn.
It doesnt say they are reborn in any sort of even fashion. There arent X number of Starborn born every year.
In the Dresdenverse, they are only born at particular points in time, and the QM hasnt changed that.

Nor do we know if Starborn who fall to the Dark are replaced, or if thats a permanent loss to the population.


I did. There are absolutely narrative reasons , and we are told that Harry is specifically being groomed for something, and has been since he was born, by everyone. Mab more or less tells McCoy that to his face, that she's been more straightforward with him than the White Council has been.

We also know that in Exalted 2E, Half-Castes cant Exalt.
And I dont know what Starborn is supposed to count as.

Im not going to argue.

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You should have, otherwise you have been focusing on the wrong parts of his build.
The most expensive things for a wizard/mage is their magic and the accouterments associated with it. Especially since wizards can pump physical attributes with magic if they have the relevant expertise, assuming Mage rules.

Just going from Arete 3 to Arete 5 is 70XP, IIRC.
30xp to go from Arete 3 to Arete 4, then another 40xp to go from Arete 4 to Arete 5. If you raised him to Arete 6, that would require an additional 50XP for a grand total of 120XP.

Then a new Sphere is 10xp, while increasing your spheres is 7/8(Favored/Unfavored) x current rank of (Sphere).
Assuming he's added an average of 14 dots of Spheres at a rate of 1 dot/ major book (we havent seen him use Time or Life, but prety much everything else) at Unfavored Sphere costs, thats ~110XP.

That already puts you in the ~200XP range before even beginning to look at the costs of Rotes, Merits and Backgrounds.
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The Winter Knight Mantle boosts him into blatantly superhuman physical performance.

Physically, it provides wound negation, mitigates a lot of the damage he would otherwise take AND provides a healing factor according to Harry. I've pointed out the Genoskwa using him to cave in the side of a minivan and not slowing him down, but there's also when he ran through the thermal bloom of his own soulfire-amplified fire spell without damage.

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I strongly doubt it.
Back in Cold Days, the one-ton Rawhead hit him in the back and only managed to move him across the combat theater; he rolled, and came back up fighting.

I have significant doubts about some random asshole with a knife.
Certainly he isnt getting punked by an unarmed random Marcone thug like the one who cut off his hair for Victor Sells back in Book 1 Storm Front.

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Current gen Harry tanked magical fire from 6x Black Court Elders in Battle Ground, and later in the same book he did tank the concentrated fusilade of an entire cadre of Fomor sorcerers.
He beat Lasciel!Ascher in magical duels, not once but twice.

He would murder 6x of himself from Book 1 without breaking stride.
Never said he'd get punked by a dude with a knife just basically that said knife could kill him. I mean his physicals are still lower than a white court vampire the physically weakest vampires. This is without active magic of course I'm saying base physicals.
 
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Yeah we get some more information in Battle Ground so the question then became... we've had for a while that she was born in the right time frame I think is as close as we got and so we're like "is there /a/ starborn or not?" and obviously in Battle Ground there are multiple now and they're concurrently operating so it opens up some more of those questions.

Yeah there were forty or fifty thousand at first.

What.

Starborn.

Since the beginning of time or right now?

No there were forty or fifty thousand starborn in this cycle at first.

And then they get whittled down.

Yeah it's been about close to forty years there ain't so many of them left.

So is being starborn a pre... do you have to have been mortal to be a starborn?

You just have to have been in the right place. Really you just have to have been unlucky
This is your quote about the word of God on starborn they're reborn and there's 50,000 of them every cycle there's nothing about their nature that precludes anything and considering they come from exalted times in this Quest there's nothing in their nature metaphysical or spiritual that would prevent exaltation you are completely inventing that from Wholecloth.

That also assumes exaltation would take them out of the cycle of reincarnation which it doesn't. So in this Quest being a wizard doesn't stop you from being exalted being a starborn probably makes you more likely because your soul is of the right configuration to begin with not requiring modding to fit the modern kind of watered down souls of the people the white God remade.

I did. There are absolutely narrative reasons , and we are told that Harry is specifically being groomed for something, and has been since he was born, by everyone. Mab more or less tells McCoy that to his face, that she's been more straightforward with him than the White Council has been
Being groomed for greater purpose is not going to do anything to put off exaltation if it wants him in fact might specifically incur Sidereal exultation if people that important physically metaphysically and magically are placing so much on him and on his destiny.

On some level I agree or very least I do not believe that he will be exalted here or at this time you just tend to say things that are verifiably false and then pitch them as if they were complete truth being modeled as a mage does not actually make them Mages Molly at the beginning of this Quest was a full-on wizard and now she is exalted and would require taking steps to get back her wizard magic.
 
That is not how it works in fantasy fiction.

In the Dresden Files, we have two specific instances where I know it was mentioned.
In Dead Beat, we are told by Sigrun Gard that Harry was fated to die in an alley outside Bock's Books, at the hands of a ghoul minion of Corpsetaker. Gard saved him on Marcone's prompting, while complaining about it.
I squinted at him. He sat calmly in his seat, mirroring me. "Is that a threat?" I asked.
"If I wanted you dead," Marcone said, "I would hardly have come to your aid just now. You must admit, Dresden, that I have just saved your life. Again."
I closed my eye again and scowled. "Your timing is improbable."
He sounded amused. "In what way?"
"Coming to my rescue just as someone was about to punch my ticket. You must admit, Marcone, that it smells like a setup."
"Even I occasionally enjoy good fortune," he replied.
I shook my head. "I called you less than an hour ago. If it wasn't a setup then how did you find me?"
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."

"Tell me about it," I said. "Everyone makes that mistake but me."
Marcone glanced at me, and his eyes wrinkled at the corners. It was very nearly a smile. Gard turned her head slowly and gave me a cold glare that wasn't anywhere close to smiling.

In Small Favor, Gard once again triggers on Michael at Demonreach, the same way she triggered on Harry.
Which leads to Harry trying to get him off the island faster, which leads to him being crippled by Polonessa Lartessa.
Uriel later tells Harry in the short story The Warrior that if Harry hadnt reacted as he did, that Michael would have died there.

What this comes to is that Fate appears to be a real thing, but so is Free Will.
And how they interact looks very different from the PoV of an archangel, a vice-president of reality, is a lot different from how it looks from the PoV of a mortal.

Nothing you said contradicts what I said in the post that you replied to. Which means that I did not in fact explain it sufficiently. Thank you for telling me that. I guess I need to figure out a better explanation then.
 
Never said he'd get punked by a dude with a knife just basically that said knife could kill him. I mean his physicals are still lower than a white court vampire the physically weakest vampires. This is without active magic of course I'm saying base physicals.
A knife can kill a lot of people.
A knife could kill a White Court vampire. Or a Red, or a Black. You just have to stab them enough.
Its just not going to be wielded by a random mook.

Same with Winter Knight Harry Dresden.

I am pretty sure that, if mapped out mechanically, the Mantle comes with bonus soak, and I would not be surprised if he has additional HLs as well. Harry already has the Huge Merit just from his own size, which produces +1HL; if the Mantle confers a Better Body style effect, you're potentially looking at several more HLs, depending.



This is your quote about the word of God on starborn they're reborn and there's 50,000 of them every cycle there's nothing about their nature that precludes anything and considering they come from exalted times in this Quest there's nothing in their nature metaphysical or spiritual that would prevent exaltation you are completely inventing that from Wholecloth.

That also assumes exaltation would take them out of the cycle of reincarnation which it doesn't. So in this Quest being a wizard doesn't stop you from being exalted being a starborn probably makes you more likely because your soul is of the right configuration to begin with not requiring modding to fit the modern kind of watered down souls of the people the white God remade.
Dude, thats Word of Butcher. Literally in the quote:
So is being starborn a pre... do you have to have been mortal to be a starborn?

You just have to have been in the right place. Really you just have to have been unlucky
Starborn cycles in the Dresdenverse are measured in centuries.
That 40k-50k Starborn were born at the same time Harry was born, and most of them are now dead in a couple decades; the previous Starborn cycle was hundreds of years ago.


And let me quote Mab:
Mab gave me a look that reminded me of why she was the Queen of Air and Darkness, and her eyes were as cold and grey as chains. "Any will can be broken."

I shuddered a little. On the inside. Because I really didn't want Mab to see it.

"A lot is going to rest on his shoulders," Ebenezar said gruffly. "So it'll be critical to keep him out of the fighting until it's time."

Mab gave Ebenezar a glance and what could only be in the most technical sense considered a tiny snort. "If you wished an instrument of careful precision and restraint," she said, "you chose the wrong champion, Blackstaff."

The old man glowered at the Queen of Air and Darkness and said, "Nonetheless."

"When horrors begin to tear apart the people of this city," Mab said calmly, "when its women and children cry out for help, I should find amusement in seeing you attempt to restrain him."

I lifted a hand and said to Mab, respectfully, "He's right. If I'm the play, then I've got to be ready when it's time."

Mab gave me a look with something in it that was almost like pity. Or possibly contempt. "As if you could restrain yourself any more ably than he could." She shook her head. "Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed."

"What?" I said.

Mab did something more frightening than most monsters could.

She smiled.

It was genuine.

"Harry," she said, her voice almost warm. "From the first time I laid eyes upon you, I saw a being who had the potential for true greatness." She laid a slim, cool hand on my forearm, and pride joined the smile already on her face. "It is almost time for you to begin to understand it yourself. And once you do, once you understand, we will do great things together."

The old man stepped between us, between the Queen of Air and Darkness and me. And he said, in a voice like granite, "He is not your weapon, Mab."

Mab's smile gained a hungry, wolfish edge. "He is exactly my weapon," she hissed. "By his own choice. Which is more than your people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful."


I blinked and shot a glance at Ebenezar.

The old man wouldn't meet my eyes.


Mab laughed, low and amused. She stepped around Ebenezar, running a hand along my shoulder as one might the fender of a car one was particularly proud to possess. "Do what you can to stay within sight during the battle, my Knight. And be what you are. Ethniu will be what she is. She has no other alternative." She nodded to Ebenezar and said, "Br—"

There was a harsh buzzing sound that started faintly and grew louder in a rush. I moved without thinking. I swept my right arm out and shoved Mab behind me as my left came up, my will coalescing into a shield aimed primarily at the sky. I barely got the shield together in time for something behind a veil, diving at approximately peregrine falcon speeds, to splatter itself across a good three-foot-radius area of invisible force.

Even as I watched, maybe six or seven pounds of . . . meat, mostly, kind of appeared from behind a shattered veil and slid slowly down the sphere-shaped plane of my shield. It landed on the ground with a wet, slapping sound. I stared down at the remnants of the thing. It looked like some kind of mix of a bat, a lizard, and a squid, all rubbery and leathery and grey and pink, like ground beef left out too long. It smelled absolutely foul, as if some kind of venom bladder had been ruptured. Parts of some yellowish mucus were actively dissolving the flesh of the creature as it died, and its tentacles were thrashing, sliming more of the stuff onto the castle's roof, where it sparked and sputtered against the warded stone.

I lowered the shield warily and rose from my crouch. "What the hell was that?"

Suddenly I became acutely aware that the Queen of Air and Darkness was pressed against my back, and I was holding her there with one arm in a fashion that could accurately be described as undignified. I moved my hand hurriedly and glanced back at the monarch of the Sidhe. "Are you all right?"

Mab met my gaze, her eyes all but glowing. I looked away quickly. Her eyes shifted to Ebenezar, something triumphant in them, and she murmured, "Yes. Well done, my Knight."

"I mean, you're immortal, right?" I said. "Why would you need a bodyguard anyway?"

She nodded toward the yellowish mucus sputtering on the stones. "Something meant to weaken or incapacitate me for the coming battle, doubtless," she said. "Immortality offers a significant advantage, but it is no substitute for intelligence. Remember that, young wizard."

Ebenezar scowled and opened his mouth.

"Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary," Mab said smoothly, before he could speak.


I stared back and forth between the pair of them for a second.

Yeah. Time for things to change. Just as soon as we dealt with Ethniu and the Fomor.
Mab has been pretty clear that there is more to Harry than meets the eye.
And essentially everyone other than him knows about it.
Especially the White Council.

Mab wasnt advising Dresden on immortality just as idle chit-chat.
=====
Being groomed for greater purpose is not going to do anything to put off exaltation if it wants him in fact might specifically incur Sidereal exultation if people that important physically metaphysically and magically are placing so much on him and on his destiny.

On some level I agree or very least I do not believe that he will be exalted here or at this time you just tend to say things that are verifiably false and then pitch them as if they were complete truth being modeled as a mage does not actually make them Mages Molly at the beginning of this Quest was a full-on wizard and now she is exalted and would require taking steps to get back her wizard magic.
Being groomed or selected for other purpose can absolutely make you non-eligible for Exaltation.
Like I have pointed out previously, Half-Castes were not eligible for Exaltation in Exalted 2E.
Similarly, mortal akuma in Exalted 2E were not eligible for Exaltation either.

There is precedent.

How Starborn count in this setting, and this age of Creation, is unknown.
What we do know is that Mab does not call someone, an apparent mortal, an elemental of destruction lightly.
Especially since, as Fae, she cant lie.

There is a power there in Dresden that hasnt been explained or explored.
Yet.
Plenty of convincing theories by fans, but Butcher hasnt weighed in on most of them.
 
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Like I have pointed out previously, Half-Castes were not eligible for Exaltation in Exalted 2E.
Similarly, mortal akuma in Exalted 2E were not eligible for Exaltation either.
Those are staggeringly different things and also God blessed were capable of being exalted I don't know where you're getting that they stopped counting as being God blooded in the case of solar exaltation and there was a reason given but it was mostly so you don't stack Spirit charms without having to pay for them on top of being an exalted.

Akuma aren't freewilled Mortals so they are already out. Demon blooded were capable of being exalted as well so if that's what you meant it was also incorrect.


Mab has been pretty clear that there is more to Harry than meets the eye.
And essentially everyone other than him knows about it.
Especially the White Council.

Mab wasnt advising Dresden on immortality just as idle chit-chat.
In what way does that matter none of the exalted except for the abyssals and now the infernals are actually just immortal and even then they're not immune to violence immortal like the ancient gods and possibly Mab is barring someone killing her on Halloween or with a spirit killer charm so what are you talking about.

You talk about somehow exaltation replacing birth status Soul status and reincarnation status when it does none of those things.

I would honestly prefer if you just said I do not believe Dresden should or is going to be exalted in this Quest because that would be kind of exactly way more true and way less immediately falsifiable then somehow saying Wizards can't be exalted when we started this Quest as a wizard who was exalted.

Then inventing whole cloth restrictions on starborn saying they can't be exalted when the only thing we've gotten from them in this Quest is that they are souls from the exalted era which means they more than anyone might be capable of being exalted.

Holy cow.
 
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This is the key part here. Harry is not asking the Hollow Man anything. This is not an exchange both parties agreed to. This is a fight. Harry is fighting the challenge Hollow Man established. If Harry asks him for anything, the metaphysics change completely. Harry will be the petitioner, in the position of weakness, instead of the challenger in the position of victor.
That's not necessarily true. After all, "asking" can be "demanding". Especially if demanded thrice. Such as when Harry demanded the identity of the Walker
 
Those are staggeringly different things and also God bless were capable of being exalted I don't know where you're getting that they stopped being god-blooded in the case of solar exaltation and there was a reason given but it was mostly so you don't stack Spirit charms without having to pay for them on top of being an exalted.

Akuma aren't freewilled Mortals so they are already out. Demon blooded were capable of being exalted as well so if that's what you meant it was also incorrect.
1)Scroll of Heroes p108
It is completely unheard of for a Half-Caste to Exalt as a different type of Chosen than his parent. Caste
may differ, but the marks of destiny in the character's blood has pledged her to the service of the Unconquered
Sun, Luna, the Maidens or the Yozis even before she was born, and this cannot be changed.
Makes it clear that Half-Castes can only Exalt into the Caste of their parent.
That makes it clear that Exaltations do have, and respect some limits about mortals.


2)Mortal akuma are still mortal. Free will has never been a requirement for Exaltation; mortals who are bound by mind control spells, Charms or artifacts like the Prefect of Paragon's Scepter can still Exalt. Exaltation just breaks whatever mind control already exists, whether its Charm or spell or magic item. Just like it destroys blood bonds in ExWoD.

Exhibit A is Scarlet Whisper, the Solar Exalt who works for the Prefect of Paragon, who was just another mind-controlled/geased Paragon citizen before Exalting, and breaking the spell.
=====


In what way does that matter none of the exalted except for the abyssals and now the infernals are actually just immortal and even then they're not immune to violence immortal like the ancient gods and possibly Mab is barring someone killing her on Halloween or with a spirit killer charm so what are you talking about.

You talk about somehow exaltation replacing birth status Soul status and reincarnation status when it does none of those things.

I would honestly prefer if you just said I do not believe Dresden should or is going to be exalted in this Quest because that would be kind of exactly way more true and way less immediately falsifiable then somehow saying Wizards can't be exalted when we started this Quest as a wizard who was exalted.

Then inventing whole cloth restrictions on starborn saying they can't be exalted when the only thing we've gotten from them in this Quest is that they are souls from the exalted era which means they more than anyone might be capable of being exalted.

Holy cow.
^^^
Mortals are not immortal. Its literally there in the name.

So why do you think Mab was giving Harry Dresden advice on being an immortal on the eve of a major battle right after telling him his own people have been keeping information from him?
Do you think she is the sort to make idle chitchat?


===
You talk as if any of us understand what being Starborn entails, in canon, or in this quest.
What we know is a short, non-exhaustive list:

-They were born under a set of celestial confluences according to Lash in White Night
-They wield power over Outsiders according to Lash in White Night
-They cant have their minds tainted by contact with the Outside according to McCoy in PT
-Each new generation of Starborn is only born every 666 years according to McCoy in PT

Drakul is explicitly Starborn in the Dresdenverse.
He isnt mortal either; the one time McCoy talks about him he calls him the creature, and Butcher straight up says that he was never human.



====
I have repeatedly stated that I do not believe that Harry is a candidate for Exaltation.
That there are narrative reasons why he would not be a candidate in this story.
If he was going to be an Exalt, Id put my money on his being a Lunar, but this isnt that kind of story.




====
You are making mechanical assumptions about Starborn Exaltation eligibility and demanding that I prove that they arent true.

We have no data demonstrating any of your assumptions because there were no Starborn back in Creation, and even if they were, this is not Creation That Was.
The Rules Are Different.

Lets run through the non-Exalt splats in ExWoD.

The Awakened cannot Exalt in vanilla ExWoD(p247). Hedge mages can, Mages cannot.
We dont know if Molly's Exaltation is a one-off for some reason, the new norm for this setting, or something that was only possible because someone else put the thumb on the scales.

Dhampyrs can Exalt as Lunars, Sidereals, Abyssals and Infernals. But notably, not Solars. Or Alchemicals.(p268)

The Amenti (Mummies, new version) are living humans, but cannot Exalt at all; the slot is filled, and the tem-akh is considered similar to an Exaltation.(p264). Hunters cannot Exalt either, despite also being living humans; the Imbuing is also considered a kind of Exaltation(p260) for this purpose, despite being much weaker.

Changeling Kithain cannot Exalt at all. Kinain can Exalt as any Caste except for Solars and Alchemicals(p257)

Garou, and the other Changing Breeds cannot Exalt either.
Their human Kinfolk(only humans, not animals) can Exalt, but only as Lunars, Abyssals, Infernals and DBs.
Not Solars. Not Alchemicals.(p247)

Demons, naturally, cannot Exalt. Neither can Wraiths(p254). Or Vampires. Or kuejin.

I hope you are noticing the pattern here, whereby major supernatural power tends to be exclusive of Exaltation.
The Exaltation shard doesnt get to arbitrarily pull rank, even where its prereqs are met.
Where the Starborn thing fits in this hierarchy of powers, we do not know, and currently have no way of knowing.

So I find your certainty about Starborn-Exaltation interactions to be.....implausible.
 
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