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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] No, let it go, the vampire isn't just going to attack a family on a busy street in broad daylight (Willpower DC 7)

I don't think that, metaphysically, Harry would be playing with time here.
This might be slightly in the past or future, or just a simulation, but he wouldn't do anything other than exist within his current location, excerting his will on his environment as any human always does.
An astronaut is not breaking the law because his watch runs a bit sifferent while he communicates with earth, he is just subjdct to slightly different physical and metaphysical conditions.
 
DragonParadox said:
These all make sense, though I will say that in the case of the Integrated improvements you can only benefit from one of them at a time. They have to be purged from the body before the others can have an effect.

I especially like the magical materials since they echo Ornicalcum, Moonsilver and the like. A good first step.
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That's awesome for the half step magical materials.

Do you think a kind of stasis/flush potion would work because they have distinct and pretty steep negative side effects for using them and having attributes over the human amount and then going off of them?

So having a potion to delay that or put the effect of those potions in stasis so you're attributes go back to human level you aren't struck by the negatives of having them be up Beyond human might be necessary.
 
Artemis1992 said:
No, let it go,
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To be honest that part of the vote is my main concern.
Artemis1992 said:
I don't think that, metaphysically, Harry would be playing with time here.
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I mean if this scene is even a little bit true whether it takes place in the future or it happened in the past it can't be happening right now because it's night in Guatemala either way you're immediately if you can pull anything out of those places you are in violation of the sixth law.
Artemis1992 said:
An astronaut is not breaking the law because his watch runs a bit sifferent while he communicates with earth, he is just subjdct to slightly different physical and metaphysical conditions
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Harry can't reach out with his hands and grab anything he has to use his magic which means he's literally under the same metaphysical constraint as he always is with his magic. Unknowingly killing someone with magic doesn't stop you from being a lawbreaker. Unknowingly pulling someone from the past or from the future into your present doesn't stop you from being a breaker of the sixth law.
 
Degorium said:
Harry can't reach out with his hands and grab anything he has to use his magic which means he's literally under the same metaphysical constraint as he always is with his magic. Unknowingly killing someone with magic doesn't stop you from being a lawbreaker. Unknowingly pulling someone from the past or from the future into your present doesn't stop you from being a breaker of the sixth law.
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He can reach out wuth his hands though?

This is a place that allows him to act in a way that might affect future or past, not one where he'd have to use actual Time magic to do so.
 
Artemis1992 said:
He can reach out wuth his hands though?

This is a place that allows him to act in a way that might affect future or past, not one where he'd have to use actual Time magic to do so.
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Though Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time is one of the Laws that doesn't seem to have a (with magic) proviso at the end, that things like the first law does. The point is to avoid temporal paradox, not to prevent mental corrosion like some of the other laws.

Same with Though Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Reach out your hand and pull the girl though and she will be with you in time. Who knows, she might even learn a thing or two."
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Artemis1992 said:
He can reach out wuth his hands though?

This is a place that allows him to act in a way that might affect future or past, not one where he'd have to use actual Time magic to do so.
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Magic is about Will you have to believe that you should and can do something and that's what it's about reach out your hand, through, and she will be with you in time.

Also I'm not sure Harry knows any time magic but he definitely would be initiating the Labyrinth to break the sixth law essentially using it as a blasting rod.

But it's not like reach out with his physical meat hand and grab her there's a metaphysical interaction occurring where he is reaching into this possibly illusion, possibly future, possibly past and pulling out his daughter through time or through space or through whatever and she will be here when she's here.

Though I will admit there isn't like a explicit acknowledgment that he has to use magic to reach out so maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems like both what is being said and how it's possibly functioning seems to suggest that it's reach out something magical happens and daughter appears which means if that is time manipulation then he's in violation of the sixth law.
 
Degorium said:
That's awesome for the half step magical materials.

Do you think a kind of stasis/flush potion would work because they have distinct and pretty steep negative side effects for using them and having attributes over the human amount and then going off of them?

So having a potion to delay that or put the effect of those potions in stasis so you're attributes go back to human level you aren't struck by the negatives of having them be up Beyond human might be necessary.
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That could be done yeah.
 
Artemis1992 said:
[X] No, let it go, the vampire isn't just going to attack a family on a busy street in broad daylight (Willpower DC 7)

I don't think that, metaphysically, Harry would be playing with time here.
This might be slightly in the past or future, or just a simulation, but he wouldn't do anything other than exist within his current location, excerting his will on his environment as any human always does.
An astronaut is not breaking the law because his watch runs a bit sifferent while he communicates with earth, he is just subjdct to slightly different physical and metaphysical conditions.
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It's still the outside though, and he has to play by mortal magic rules. The mental influence mechanic of the DF should be treated with the seriousness and omnipresence of paradox for a WoD mage.

There's a WoJ to the effect that the universe will punish wizards for black magic even if they didn't realize they were doing it. On the order of a wizard casting fireball recklessly burning down an orphanage and getting first law damage based on if people die not their knowledge of any death. All magic has feedback, even if there isn't a specific law about it. It's just that the laws cover things which end very poorly 99% of the time.

It seems to me that the easiest way to get a wizard to "let" someone cut them up spiritually is to tempt them into casting magic in a way that doesn't seem to have an immediately obvious negative consequence, but generates outsized backlash due to the context.

Like how in canon Peabody's mist fiend was chosen in part because it's attracted to light. He darkened the room when he fled and effectively baited the wizards into making themselves targets because you can rely on a wizard reflexively reaching for magic to solve their problems.

Marcus Vermiculus Libo Servitus over here may be doing the same thing writ large. Show them darkness in their world and try to get wizards to let him in by acting on it here and now.

This place isn't going to give him an opportunity unless it's poisoned somehow. The prize isn't power and the chance to fix your problems, it's power if you manage to resist the temptations offered by the labyrinth.
 
[X] Plan: Timezones
-[X] Remember that it's night in North America right now. At best this is a vision of a past that is already occurred at worst it's a literal bait to break the sixth law with the Labyrinths Helping Hand.
--[X] Stunt: " So which one was it? " you say at evil McBland face to which he lightly quirks a brow " All you evil types always do this you think just because I have a heart I don't have a brain." Waiting for the self-referenced tapeworm to stop chewing
--[X]"It was night in Chicago when I left. Guatemala is still in North America as well as being in nearly the same time zone the scene shown to me has the sun high in the sky. " Taking a moment to breathe to shore up my confidence in my idea " The idea was to get me to pull her here it would immediately make me in violation of the sixth law pulling anything from this image would make me in violation of the sixth law as I would be literally pulling them out of everything that happened to them and the world in the last six and a half or so hours give or take."
--[X]So looking back from the sunlit South American streets at the actual human tapeworm of evil. " So which one was it? Did you think I was stupid or did you forget I was a private investigator who is very familiar with tracking things long distances."

Yeah this fits and fits well for the Second Anchor which is the Present. Just remember the Edit: Third Anchor is the Future one. Fuckery will only ratchet up on the third try.

Edit: Capital letters.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Oct 19, 2024 at 11:55 AM, finished with 58 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] No, let it go, the vampire isn't just going to attack a family on a busy street in broad daylight (Willpower DC 7)
    [X] Plan: Timezones
    -[X] Remember that it's night in North America right now. At best this is a vision of a past that is already occurred at worst it's a literal bait to break the sixth law with the Labyrinths Helping Hand.
    --[X] Stunt: " So which one was it? " you say at evil McBland face to which he lightly quirks a brow " All you evil types always do this you think just because I have a heart I don't have a brain." Waiting for the self-referenced tapeworm to stop chewing
    --[X]"It was night in Chicago when I left. Guatemala is still in North America as well as being in nearly the same time zone the scene shown to me has the sun high in the sky. " Taking a moment to breathe to shore up my confidence in my idea " The idea was to get me to pull her here it would immediately make me in violation of the sixth law pulling anything from this image would make me in violation of the sixth law as I would be literally pulling them out of everything that happened to them and the world in the last six and a half or so hours give or take."
    --[X]So looking back from the sunlit South American streets at the actual human tapeworm of evil. " So which one was it? Did you think I was stupid or did you forget I was a private investigator who is very familiar with tracking things long distances."
    [X] Open his sight to get a better look at all of this, all he has so far are gut feelings and the word of a monster.
    [X] Pulls someone in
    -[x] The Vampire for interogation
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That time zone plan makes too large of a leap on too small of a data point. Not that the conclusions that this is a trap is wrong, but that it's specifically a time violation. Guessing wrong opens Harry to his general choice being attacked based on a point which doesn't actually matter.

We don't want to get into an argument about the specifics of what laws may or may not be getting broken if we can't be definitive about it. Just that we don't need his power to do it.
 
@DragonParadox two questions, if you don't mind, regarding world building. We know that in some sense Fate exists in DresdenVerse, or at least in this quest. Seers exist, And we are outside of Fate. So, the questions:
1) How does Free Will coexists with Fate?
2) Can we use the crown to ask "What is the Fate of X person?". Or does this run into our deal with God?

BronzeTongue said:
That time zone plan makes too large of a leap on too small of a data point. Not that the conclusions that this is a trap is wrong, but that it's specifically a time violation. Guessing wrong opens Harry to his general choice being attacked based on a point which doesn't actually matter.

We don't want to get into an argument about the specifics of what laws may or may not be getting broken if we can't be definitive about it. Just that we don't need his power to do it.
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The motivation might be different, but the violation would be there.
 
Yog said:
@DragonParadox two questions, if you don't mind, regarding world building. We know that in some sense Fate exists in DresdenVerse, or at least in this quest. Seers exist, And we are outside of Fate. So, the questions:
1) How does Free Will coexists with Fate?
2) Can we use the crown to ask "What is the Fate of X person?". Or does this run into our deal with God?
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Fate is the consequence of choice. This is such an obvious answer I don't understand why most people don't understand it.

A person chose to do something with an intent, well with at least 4 different intents but lets not get into the complexities for this post, and the results of that choice, both intended and the unintended, are now present in the world and are at least part of the terrain of the world if not outright actions in their own right now.

Now do that with every person who has free will and the resulting deluge of reactions refracted trough the choices of the people it hits is what Fate is. How is this hard to understand? Did I at least explain it sufficiently?
 
Yog said:
@DragonParadox two questions, if you don't mind, regarding world building. We know that in some sense Fate exists in DresdenVerse, or at least in this quest. Seers exist, And we are outside of Fate. So, the questions:
1) How does Free Will coexists with Fate?
2) Can we use the crown to ask "What is the Fate of X person?". Or does this run into our deal with God?


The motivation might be different, but the violation would be there.
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  1. Molly does not know, this is one of those things you have to find out in play.
  2. You get an error message if you ask for a mortal's fate, not like there is no information, but like something corrupted the data and the Crown won't take it
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 19, 2024 at 1:24 PM, finished with 65 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X] No, let it go, the vampire isn't just going to attack a family on a busy street in broad daylight (Willpower DC 7)
    [X] Plan: Timezones
    -[X] Remember that it's night in North America right now. At best this is a vision of a past that is already occurred at worst it's a literal bait to break the sixth law with the Labyrinths Helping Hand.
    --[X] Stunt: " So which one was it? " you say at evil McBland face to which he lightly quirks a brow " All you evil types always do this you think just because I have a heart I don't have a brain." Waiting for the self-referenced tapeworm to stop chewing
    --[X]"It was night in Chicago when I left. Guatemala is still in North America as well as being in nearly the same time zone the scene shown to me has the sun high in the sky. " Taking a moment to breathe to shore up my confidence in my idea " The idea was to get me to pull her here it would immediately make me in violation of the sixth law pulling anything from this image would make me in violation of the sixth law as I would be literally pulling them out of everything that happened to them and the world in the last six and a half or so hours give or take."
    --[X]So looking back from the sunlit South American streets at the actual human tapeworm of evil. " So which one was it? Did you think I was stupid or did you forget I was a private investigator who is very familiar with tracking things long distances."
    [X] Open his sight to get a better look at all of this, all he has so far are gut feelings and the word of a monster.
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Yog said:
@DragonParadox two questions, if you don't mind, regarding world building. We know that in some sense Fate exists in DresdenVerse, or at least in this quest. Seers exist, And we are outside of Fate. So, the questions:
1) How does Free Will coexists with Fate?
2) Can we use the crown to ask "What is the Fate of X person?". Or does this run into our deal with God?


The motivation might be different, but the violation would be there.
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My point is more about rhetorical counter play. When up against someone good at social giving openings is dangerous even when they seem to have obvious resolutions.

"Because of X I won't engage with Y"

"It's not X though, are you sure you know what you're talking about?"

We shouldn't set our standard against something that he may be able to disprove, even in part, because that presents an opportunity to steal momentum on the argument as a whole. In a purely logical sense it doesn't make a difference, but people are not perfectly rational actors.

It's like if I tried to argue that man made climate change happens because space gremlins are attracted to CO2 and they radiate enough body heat to warm the globe.

Man made climate change is happening and we as a global community should get our CO2/pollutant emissions under control, but anyone who wants to argue otherwise doesn't have to engage in a discussion about the real points. They can derail into my space gremlins nonsense and make the conversation about something they can win then try to keep it there.

If I was Marcus my tactic in reply to this would be to dig at Harry's understanding of the laws and where they fail. Self defense for the first being an obvious place to start. Get Harry to accept he made a bad call about one law, and really given that he knows there's an exception to another maybe others have them as well.

All of which is basically a shell game to shake him and distract from my attempts to get him to slip even a little while standing on the edge of a cliff.

Hell, if time magic is involved it still might work should Harry make it the point of contention. An exception just this once as a little sacrifice for his little girl - who might die for the sin of being her father's daughter.

How could a law forbid that and still be called just? What god could punish you and not rightly be called tyrant? Why even practice magic at all if not to change the way things are?
 
BronzeTongue said:
My point is more about rhetorical counter play. When up against someone good at social giving openings is dangerous even when they seem to have obvious resolutions.

"Because of X I won't engage with Y"

"It's not X though, are you sure you know what you're talking about?"

We shouldn't set our standard against something that he may be able to disprove, even in part, because that presents an opportunity to steal momentum on the argument as a whole. In a purely logical sense it doesn't make a difference, but people are not perfectly rational actors.

It's like if I tried to argue that man made climate change happens because space gremlins are attracted to CO2 and they radiate enough body heat to warm the globe.

Man made climate change is happening and we as a global community should get our CO2/pollutant emissions under control, but anyone who wants to argue otherwise doesn't have to engage in a discussion about the real points. They can derail into my space gremlins nonsense and make the conversation about something they can win then try to keep it there.

If I was Marcus my tactic in reply to this would be to dig at Harry's understanding of the laws and where they fail. Self defense for the first being an obvious place to start. Get Harry to accept he made a bad call about one law, and really given that he knows there's an exception to another maybe others have them as well.

All of which is basically a shell game to shake him and distract from my attempts to get him to slip even a little while standing on the edge of a cliff.

Hell, if time magic is involved it still might work should Harry make it the point of contention. An exception just this once as a little sacrifice for his little girl - who might die for the sin of being her father's daughter.

How could a law forbid that and still be called just? What god could punish you and not rightly be called tyrant? Why even practice magic at all if not to change the way things are?
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While I agree with what your saying I do want to take a moment to mention another topic on the laws. They are not all laws of magic some are more just political or reasonable ideas. Like the time and outsider laws while stuff like murder with magic or transformation are cause of corruptive affects the former two are political and good ideas for laws.
 
firefrog600 said:
While I agree with what your saying I do want to take a moment to mention another topic on the laws. They are not all laws of magic some are more just political or reasonable ideas. Like the time and outsider laws while stuff like murder with magic or transformation are cause of corruptive affects the former two are political and good ideas for laws.
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Yes and no.

All DF mortal magic pushes things on the mind of the caster, but some uses have more extreme negative reactions than others. Ultimately all of them are on the list because wizards doing those things a lot is a problem more than simply being out of concern for the wizard's personal health.

Some of them have sharper spirals than others, but they all still have one.
 
BronzeTongue said:
From the WoD perspective all archmages are on work from home, they can't enter reality again themselves without paradox exploding them. That limit doesn't exist as a general rule, but this guy exiled himself from reality and had so far only shown up as a patron to convert others. I think it's a fair estimation since it's a major part of his story.

He was recruited to be good at recruiting further minions without needing to use the labyrinth for every one of them. That's why he's not personally exploding wizards.
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Thats inaccurate.
In WoD, the Archmages Porthos and Senex both lived in the Umbra, but they made regular excursions to the real world.

More to the point, in the Dresdenverse RPG, NeverNever constructs exist for gods, spirits and elder wizards.
We see both the ghost Agatha and Evil Bob demonstrate them in the books.
The Gatekeeper, by Word of Butcher, has one.

So Im not really seeing the meaningful restriction thing.

Sure he cant LIVE in reality; whatever he did, its made the sidereal reality hostile to him. How hostile, remains to be seen.
Can he do daytrips the way a lot of Fae do? Can he simply hollow out victims and ride in their skulls?
We already know he can telepresence strongly enough to make using the Sight hazardous to wizards in their own HQ.

And I really doubt They recruited a Starborn wizard for his ability to recruit minions.
Assuming he is Starborn, of course; Nephandi lie as easily as they breathe.
 
Dmol8 said:
Fate is the consequence of choice. This is such an obvious answer I don't understand why most people don't understand it.

A person chose to do something with an intent, well with at least 4 different intents but lets not get into the complexities for this post, and the results of that choice, both intended and the unintended, are now present in the world and are at least part of the terrain of the world if not outright actions in their own right now.

Now do that with every person who has free will and the resulting deluge of reactions refracted trough the choices of the people it hits is what Fate is. How is this hard to understand? Did I at least explain it sufficiently?
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That is not how it works in fantasy fiction.

In the Dresden Files, we have two specific instances where I know it was mentioned.
In Dead Beat, we are told by Sigrun Gard that Harry was fated to die in an alley outside Bock's Books, at the hands of a ghoul minion of Corpsetaker. Gard saved him on Marcone's prompting, while complaining about it.
I squinted at him. He sat calmly in his seat, mirroring me. "Is that a threat?" I asked.
"If I wanted you dead," Marcone said, "I would hardly have come to your aid just now. You must admit, Dresden, that I have just saved your life. Again."
I closed my eye again and scowled. "Your timing is improbable."
He sounded amused. "In what way?"
"Coming to my rescue just as someone was about to punch my ticket. You must admit, Marcone, that it smells like a setup."
"Even I occasionally enjoy good fortune," he replied.
I shook my head. "I called you less than an hour ago. If it wasn't a setup then how did you find me?"
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."
"Tell me about it," I said. "Everyone makes that mistake but me."
Marcone glanced at me, and his eyes wrinkled at the corners. It was very nearly a smile. Gard turned her head slowly and gave me a cold glare that wasn't anywhere close to smiling.

In Small Favor, Gard once again triggers on Michael at Demonreach, the same way she triggered on Harry.
Which leads to Harry trying to get him off the island faster, which leads to him being crippled by Polonessa Lartessa.
Uriel later tells Harry in the short story The Warrior that if Harry hadnt reacted as he did, that Michael would have died there.

What this comes to is that Fate appears to be a real thing, but so is Free Will.
And how they interact looks very different from the PoV of an archangel, a vice-president of reality, is a lot different from how it looks from the PoV of a mortal.
 
firefrog600 said:
While I agree with what your saying I do want to take a moment to mention another topic on the laws. They are not all laws of magic some are more just political or reasonable ideas. Like the time and outsider laws while stuff like murder with magic or transformation are cause of corruptive affects the former two are political and good ideas for laws.
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Time might be about mental corruption too, at least for the quest. Because time is about consequences, and you really don't want to undo "consequences exist" in a Creation-based setting. No one (sane) wants the return of Time-not.
 
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