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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
The warning we got is that this thing wants to convince Dresden to change, to be allowed to pick what he leaves behind. Will Dresden's usual tactics work against something specifically choosing to engage in a way that would provoke them?

The last test seemed like the goal was to make him reject a close relationship and refuse to empathize with someone he cares about. Harry (probably?) beat it by accepting his grandfather and how they're similar people.

So what does this trial want to make him feel?
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I think its trying to draw a parallel between McCoy not being around for Harry and Harry not being around for his daughter. Then the Hollow Man asks if he'd prefer to have her be a Wizard and thus exposed to all the supernatural danger or be a mortal who'd be safer but inevitably grow old an die while Harry remains unchanged.

The choice is in itself a trap I think. Trying to choose if being a mortal or a wizard is better is the first step in embracing inhumanity. If Dresden chooses mortal, then he's implicitly placing himself in another category in a way that opens him up to having his connections to his moral friends attacked. If he chooses wizard then he is implicitly saying that wizards are superior to mortals which is a dangerous path to tread.

I think engaging with the Hollow Man at all is a mistake. I'm kinda curious to what happens if Harry just obnoxiously ignores him. But thats probably not a good choice.

[X] Try to piss him off, they always slip up when they are angry
 
Hexxart said:
I think its trying to draw a parallel between McCoy not being around for Harry and Harry not being around for his daughter. Then the Hollow Man asks if he'd prefer to have her be a Wizard and thus exposed to all the supernatural danger or be a mortal who'd be safer but inevitably grow old an die while Harry remains unchanged.

The choice is in itself a trap I think. Trying to choose if being a mortal or a wizard is better is the first step in embracing inhumanity. If Dresden chooses mortal, then he's implicitly placing himself in another category in a way that opens him up to having his connections to his moral friends attacked. If he chooses wizard then he is implicitly saying that wizards are superior to mortals which is a dangerous path to tread.
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And he can choose neither. Either emigrate to Molly's Sanctuary (immortality through reincarnation and a union of magic and mundane) or go hunt down some old monster for Molly to craft an immortality trinket for his daughter if he wants to. Hollow Man is behind the time, mortality is an easily and morally solved issue for Molly's associates, and he's part of the solution. Well, his dead body is.

[X] Try to piss him off, they always slip up when they are angry
 
BoredMan said:
As long as they're fine with delaying Heaven anyways. Molly's family for example would probably have mixed feelings on the notion and Lydia views death abnormally.
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I had this argument early in the thread, I'll try to look up the quotes, but the gist of it is that from Roman Catholic Church's point of view, there's a some internal inconsistency. On one hand, catholics are morally obligated to use advanced and experimental medicine, which immortality serums should qualify for, and on the other hand, real life RCC condemned the idea of radical life extension. In Dresdenverse the situation should be simpler, as wizards have naturally long / infinite lifespan, as do many others, not all of whom are inherently damned. Thus, not taking a free and moral immortality treatment would be a form of suicide, which is a sin.

Or at least this is the argument I have prepared for when we have to talk to Charity about it.
 
BoredMan said:
That is an interesting argument.
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It really is. Theology behind the masquerade's curtain has to be quite different, because most supernatural beings have indefinite lifespans, and only mortal magicless humans are so brief.
BoredMan said:
Important to keep in mind the timetable of the Quest. This may never actually become relevant unless we get a time-skip.
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I have a number of designs that generally improve quality of life, with eternal longevity as a side effect. Adding to that, it's easier to stop someone from aging than it is to reverse the aging process. Thus, if we want to make Chairty and Michael eternal, we should aim to do this while they are in the prime of their biological age. Yes, it's not a big issue in principle because we have Tiffany, but that would be a harder sell to Charity, I feel.

This is also something potentially relevant to our grandparents, if we ever want to talk to them, father Forthill and just in general. If and when Masquerade breaks I fully intend to offer immortality treatments on as wise scale as I can.
 
Yog said:
And he can choose neither. Either emigrate to Molly's Sanctuary (immortality through reincarnation and a union of magic and mundane) or go hunt down some old monster for Molly to craft an immortality trinket for his daughter if he wants to. Hollow Man is behind the time, mortality is an easily and morally solved issue for Molly's associates, and he's part of the solution. Well, his dead body is.
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I think that's not the core of the issue.

It's more about her being part of the supernatural world, or not.

The life-extension, as well as inevitable risks to her life, soul and sanity, are a part of the former, a normal but also normal-length life part of the latter.
At least in Harry's mind as it is right now.

The Gift is just the easiest way for him to conceptualize these paths.
 
[X] Try to piss him off, they always slip up when they are angry

I wonder how much of the Hollow Man's words are bravado and lies and how much of them are real goals. Well, we'll see soon. So far, I'm again not impressed with the originality. But maybe I expect too much from them.
 
@DragonParadox I kind of need a GM ruling on this question: Has Harry read Savage Sword of Conan Vol 1 number 176?

Cause if he has this changes what can be done here.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I think that's not the core of the issue.

It's more about her being part of the supernatural world, or not.

The life-extension, as well as inevitable risks to her life, soul and sanity, are a part of the former, a normal but also normal-length life part of the latter.
At least in Harry's mind as it is right now.

The Gift is just the easiest way for him to conceptualize these paths.
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Mundane vs. supernatural choice also breaks down in the face of Harry having experienced Sanctuary - a modern (and, in fact, futuristic) world that would find the very concept of such separation bizarre, and, while spooky and alien in some ways, is undoubtedly working and thriving.

Harry's experiences here should make him if not immune, then at least highly resistant in unexpected ways to such an argument.
 
Yog said:
Mundane vs. supernatural choice also breaks down in the face of Harry having experienced Sanctuary - a modern (and, in fact, futuristic) world that would find the very concept of such separation bizarre, and, while spooky and alien in some ways, is undoubtedly working and thriving.
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Sanctuary is a weird new case that exists either in the far Nevernever or in Molly's soul and in either case might not survive her.

It's far less real to everyone not from there than Earth is. At least in terms of people's feelings on the matter, reality might alter those in time, but not in a few months time.
 
Now, if we were to establish a permanent portal somewhere (*cough cough Peru*), and start invading a few mortal countries openly, I'm sure we can speed up the process! Maybe instigate a global existential panic by shattering Masquerade via invading armies from Hell, but that's a future Molly problem.
 
Harry doesn't know, but the Masquerade's days are numbered. One way or another, it will collapse. That's unlikely to convince him now. But his daughter won't die of old age by then.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Sanctuary is a weird new case that exists either in the far Nevernever or in Molly's soul and in either case might not survive her.

It's far less real to everyone not from there than Earth is. At least in terms of people's feelings on the matter, reality might alter those in time, but not in a few months time.
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Harry might still think it's a NeverNever realm (even that is arguable), but I don't think he thinks the society and people in Sanctuary are less real than those on Earth.
 
[X] Try to piss him off, they always slip up when they are angry
 
DragonParadox said:
"I'm special am I? Born under the right stars?" You could cut the sarcasm in my words with a knife. He didn't seem to care.

I watched wearily as a thin almost pained smile showed on that unremarkable face as if the one behind it did not quite recall how those muscles were meant to work. "Same as I yes, but that is not what I meant.
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So, just noticed this. Hollow Man is quite possibly a Starborn too.
 
Yog said:
I had this argument early in the thread, I'll try to look up the quotes, but the gist of it is that from Roman Catholic Church's point of view, there's a some internal inconsistency. On one hand, catholics are morally obligated to use advanced and experimental medicine, which immortality serums should qualify for, and on the other hand, real life RCC condemned the idea of radical life extension. In Dresdenverse the situation should be simpler, as wizards have naturally long / infinite lifespan, as do many others, not all of whom are inherently damned. Thus, not taking a free and moral immortality treatment would be a form of suicide, which is a sin.

Or at least this is the argument I have prepared for when we have to talk to Charity about it.
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Wizards do not have endless lifespans in canon they live like to somewhere around 500+. The gatekeeper is notably unnatural in how long he's lived. Given we don't have exact ages but the senior council is old.
 
Yog said:
So, just noticed this. Hollow Man is quite possibly a Starborn too.
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Maybe, but I'd want another source before putting any weight on it. "You're special, different from most people, but we're similar" is a classic recruitment/emotional manipulation tactic after all.

It could very well be true, but I wouldn't attach any particular significance to his claims on their own.
 
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