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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
"I hope to God it's just me," the words were faint and snatched up by the wind-that flowed-with- nameless-colors. The Labyrianth was trying to pull me elsewhere, but the current wasn't so strong that I couldn't stay here. Should I stay? Would I see what happened? How he died... could I trust it?

What does Harry do?

[] Try to remain with Malcolm and his younger self (Willpower Roll 8 Dice DC 7)

[] Follow the flow of the Labyrinth where it leads him

[] Try to speak to the people outside (Arete+Mind Roll 5 Dice DC 6)

OOC: I thought about just continuing to write, but that would have lead to an enormous interlude that might not even have been done today.
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If Harry wants to know HOW his father died, he just has to ask Molly. If he wants to confirm if McCoy is his grandfather, ditto.
She can go to his father's gravesite, or the place where his father was found, and ask. She can use a scene with him and ask. Hell, Lydia could troll the local ghost population for clues. Thats not really an issue.

And there's the question of whether he can trust what the Labyrinth says, both the factual details, and the slant it chooses to portray them in.
This is the best roll, mechanically, but narratively I have my doubts.
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I dont trust the Labyrinth to carry a person where they want to go, as opposed to where it wants to take them
I would not give up that agency if I had the option.

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I would probably vote for asking the people around.
It feels narratively appropriate for Harry Dresden the wizard investigator to investigate.
As opposed to being passive.



VOTE
[X] Try to speak to the people outside (Arete+Mind Roll 5 Dice DC 6)
 
[X] Follow the flow of the Labyrinth where it leads him

Pay attention to what you see and hear, and figure out questions to ask when you get out of here. You're here for a reason though, and it's not to dig for the answers to the mysteries of your past. Keep moving forward rather than letting yourself get caught up in the sights it chooses to show you. It is the ultimate manipulator.
 
To be clear nobody actually knows how this is supposed to work we just know that there is a fail and win state. It could be that said states and how to reach them depends on the individual in question even.
 
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Ivar said:
Do you think they could have saved Edinburgh? I don't think so. I think they would have lost it. Arthur Langley may have been lost, we'll see soon. Ancient May may have died in battle too... I think you're underestimating the scale of this attack. Kemler's failure to achieve the same is not proof that the threat is less serious. It's proof of how different it is. An external threat versus an internal one. Even the strongest fortresses fall like a wooden fence if there are traitors within to open the gates.
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Yes, I think so.
If we'd told them "Peabody et al are traitors, here's a list", they would have sustained much greater losses handling it on their own; they'd almost certainly have lost LaFortier and Luccio.But yes, they'd have held it.

Given warning, they could have called in external resources; like Ive pointed out before, McCoy was able to call in an army of tengu as a personal favor at short notice for attacking the Red Court at Chitchen Itza, not even a Council one.
And thats not counting people like Odin interfering for their own purposes.


Worst case, they lose Edinburgh. Significant loss, but not existential.


I mean, this is where I remind you that the Council knows it has traitors.
Has suspected since Archangel, and had confirmation during Dead Beat, and again during Turn Coat.

McCoy and friends literally put together a cabal of actors that, even when the greater Council was paralyzed, was still able to muster enough magical and military force to attack Chitchen Itza during Changes.
Contingency protocols and fallback measures arent obvious.
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BoredMan said:
Oh right. I have no idea what this is about then. All I can think of is more precise details on Starborn stuff.
In that case. I'll go with this. I want Dresden family lore and it may be related to the Starborn.

[X] Try to remain with Malcolm and his younger self (Willpower Roll 8 Dice DC 7)
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Doubt it.
Malcolm knew nothing about the supernatural community as far as we know; he's not likely to know anything about Starborn stuff. His mother would have known.

Either way, either of the active options has to be better than passively allowing the Labyrinth to carry him where it wants to go.
 
Anaja said:
[X] Follow the flow of the Labyrinth where it leads him

Pay attention to what you see and hear, and figure out questions to ask when you get out of here. You're here for a reason though, and it's not to dig for the answers to the mysteries of your past. Keep moving forward rather than letting yourself get caught up in the sights it chooses to show you. It is the ultimate manipulator.
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Uh, no.
Do not let the spooky evil magic construct carry you where it wants to send you.
Get out of its flow, and look around.

There's a reason why Following the Flow doesnt require a roll, while the other two options do.

"The gates of hell are open night and day;
Smooth the descent, and easy is the way:
But to return, and view the cheerful skies,
In this the task and mighty labor lies."
-Virgil​
 
[X] Follow the flow of the Labyrinth where it leads him

I think trying to stay in the scene is how the labyrinth gets you.

We know it plays on regrets and guides you towards inhumanity. And having to accept that there are things you can't change and can't know are something that all people have to experience. One meanwhile Dresden is a Wizard and a detective, his natural impulse is to try and investigate and understand everything, plus he's the type of stubborn that pathologically cannot give up. See Changes for how that works for him.

If you wanted to corrupt him the way to go is too show him mysteries he cannot solve and situations he cannot change and then whisper that all he has to do is give up a teensy tiny piece of himself and then he can save everyone. So, the solve the labyrinth he needs to see this mysteries and hooks and willingly choose to move past them.
 
BoredMan said:
To be clear nobody actually knows how this is supposed to work we just know that there is a fail and win state. It could be that said states and how to reach them depends on the individual in question even.
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To remind people of what we do know from the Crown-


DragonParadox said:
"Harry if you want to do this know it's going to show you things. Some will be truths that hurt to know, some will fears you keep deep inside and every last one will be meant to break you until. The Maze turns and twists and tries to make you lost, tries to find your guiding light and drag it down. It doesn't always go like it did for Shaw. If you brace your weakness it will go after your strength. It's..." you frown. "Evil really doesn't exist of itself, its a distortion, a lie or an absence, if it.. if he can cut you up and make you choose what parts to keep, then he will cut and cut until there's nothing left but the sound of the knife. You have to keep the balance, no matter what he'll show you, no matter if its true or not, you have to keep the faith in everything you are and all that makes you human."
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This is all we have on how the Labyrinth is supposed to work.

I suggest people reread this bit and think on it before voting. The Maze reveals truths, tries to find your guiding light and use it to drag you down to make you "lost". Make of that what you will.

Edit: Molly said that he needs to find a "balance" so it's probably going to necessitate a bit of back and forth.
 
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By the way, I am purely academically interested in how we define "inhumanity" here.
 
Im just going to say:

We arent here to see what the Labyrinth WANTS to show us.
We are here for things it, or rather its makers, dont want us in general, or Harry in particular, to know.
Ergo, I dont see how that is served by allowing the Labyrinth to carry us where it wants to go.

Ivar said:
Okay, we probably have different terms. What do you think is an existential loss and how do you define the loss of the white council?
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An existential threat is one that could destroy the Council. An existential loss destroys the Council.
The loss of Edinburgh wouldnt do that. Not when its largely empty, with most of its Wardens away, and none of the senior wizards on the scene.

It would weaken it, dont get me wrong, but it wouldnt destroy it.
There's fewer wizards onsite than there were during the canon Peabody incident, when 500 wizards showed up for Morgan's trial.
 
uju32 said:
There's a reason why Following the Flow doesnt require a roll, while the other two options do.
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This is a pretty good point though. Mechanically speaking if a random found themselves in here they'd probably be forced to "follow the flow" the entire time. If the Hollow Man wants people in here then just following along the entire time is probably a bad idea.
 
DragonParadox said:
people outside
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Sorry, but who do you mean? Molly and co? Malcolm and Ebeneezer in the vision?

EDIT:
Anyway, success tables:
number of successesWillpower Roll 8 Dice DC 7Arete+Roll 5 Dice DC 6
<-1 (super botch)1.51.2
-1 (botch)3.13.4
0 (fail)6.78.7
111.515.7
215.821.1
317.521.1
416.215.7
512.48.6
>515.54.6
Overall, Willpower is a safer roll. Now, what is the better roll, I'll have to think.
 
DragonParadox said:
Molly and Co, the people beyond the reach of the Labyrinth.
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Ok.

So, hmm... I think I'll take

[X] Try to speak to the people outside (Arete+Mind Roll 5 Dice DC 6)

My reasoning is as follows: the Labyrinth is likely trying to build upon itself. What it shows Dresden are not separate self-contained scenes, there's almost certainly going to be a narrative buildup to impress upon him how everything he knows is a lie, how he can't trust anyway, etc. Here, he was shown Ebeneezer, in what's likely a very true scene (I expect there might be some distortion later, with stuff like McCoy putting a mind-affecting spell with Blackstuff on Dresden's father or something like this) with a piece of information (grandfather) that makes Dresden doubt whether he's shown truth or falsehood. As far as I can see Dresden resisted it pretty well. By talking to Molly and co, Ebeneezer specifically, he clears some air, and disrupts the narrative buildup.

I am unsure what remaining within the scene would be accomplishing at the moment. The argument for it is the crown vision if taken literally - first use willpower, then each of four valors.
 
DragonParadox said:
Molly and Co, the people beyond the reach of the Labyrinth.
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I was under the impression that it meant something else. Like other people in the vision thing.


Alright then, let Harry try and use the Shintai safety net I suppose. That's why it's there.

[X] Try to speak to the people outside (Arete+Mind Roll 5 Dice DC 6)
 
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DragonParadox said:
Molly and Co, the people beyond the reach of the Labyrinth.
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Oh, sorry, another question - as far as Harry (since we are voting for him right now, I guess this would be his perspective) understands, would talking to those outside the trial diminish the benefit of beating it? Ie is it the sort of cheating that diminishes the prize?
 
Yog said:
Oh, sorry, another question - as far as Harry (since we are voting for him right now, I guess this would be his perspective) understands, would talking to those outside the trial diminish the benefit of beating it? Ie is it the sort of cheating that diminishes the prize?
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No, attempting to do so comes with its own risks so it does not diminish the value of getting to the end
 
uju32 said:
Wow, wow, wow, slow down. This was a major crisis, of that there's no dispute.
But calling this the Council's greatest hour of need seems to be overselling it a little.
Especially since its based on less than six months knowledge of things.


If anyone else is helping, or has contingency plans in place, good chance we dont have the PoV to know about it.
Hell, I dont know if the Council would know about it as a corporate entity; a lot of the major players tend to move in silence, and there are no newspapers covering the supernatural.

For example, noone who wasnt in the room will ever know about Lily's phone call.
And I dont know if the White Council even know about Odin's little weeding operation in Boston last year.
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This is a wildly worse than canon, and any argument that they'd have handled it better than we have right now fails in the face of their complete lack of any sign of competence right now.

Many of the things they need to not suck are features they should have implemented decades ago and who's failure should have had obvious presence in the events of the last few IC days.

The results of this event as far as I can tell is to confirm that the council has been utterly at the mercy of people competent enough to kill it at any time saved only by the fact that their secretive masters had drastically higher expectations of their victims than reality actually bore out.

Maybe - maybe - it wouldn't have killed them on the spot, but it seems highly likely it would have been left them to metaphorically bleed out.
firefrog600 said:
I mean I wouldn't say they'd win in a normal fight its their anonymity which gave them an overwhelming advantage and sufficient strength to leverage it. But you have a big point even in canon we're pretty sure black council has varying motives and are allies of convenience in many cases even if we're not sure whose in it.

Oh and demons don't wanna end reality I know semantics but we need to get our terminology right here.
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If everyone wasn't a blithering idiot I might even buy that.

You know that famous apocryphal WW2 quote with the American soldier shouting at some German PoWs "You had horses, what were you thinking?!"? The council is on the bad side of that among many other things.

We know the black council managed instantaneous low profile interdimensional communications for at least key members because more than one knew what was going on and managed to rush in to help.

In a white room maybe it would matter, but as is even if the council knew what was going on they'd still lose because they're so behind the curve.

Consider what it would take to cut off a US army battalion from their command, how the command might respond, and all the things they could do to deal with it. Consider the lack of anything remotely similar in evidence for the council even as a failing system.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Oct 17, 2024 at 12:51 AM, finished with 33 posts and 11 votes.
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Anyone else wanna vote? Might wanna do it soon
Ive made my arguments about why its a Bad Idea to simply let the Labyrinth carry you along with the flow, without making any attempt to guide yourself or prepare.
 
Okay if I may make a counter argument nothing has been posed no question or scenario that requires putting himself in danger by reaching outside of the labyrinth yet.

If he has questions about his father's death I imagine he won't forget to ask Molly if she might be able to clarify set information if he has questions of Ebenezer on whether or not he is his grandfather I imagine he won't forget and just ask him when he's in a position not to put his life in Mortal Dangerous by using his magic.

There's no guidance that can be given by people who aren't in The Labyrinth on how to navigate any further than what was already given. He also has no question that can't be independently verified when he's not trying to go through a danger Labyrinth.
 
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