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Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy

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Imperious said:
What about Dragon Ogre Shaggoths and the Slann?
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Dragons had power and near immunity to age without needing to make a pact with the dark gods and give up both the ability to reproduce and to act without being charged with lightning.

Slann aren't predators. Being powerful is not synonymous with what that means.
 
Blackout said:
What do they have to do with anything?
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I'm not sure that the dragons would be considered the planet's apex predators when those are a thing. IIRC there's some background about how prior to the arrival of the Old Ones the dragons and the dragon ogres would war against each other, and that Indraugnir wanted the dragons to go into hiding from the Slann. Though I suppose depending on how literal you're being with the term apex predator then the Slann might not count.

Mopman43 said:
Dragons had power and near immunity to age without needing to make a pact with the dark gods and give up both the ability to reproduce and to act without being charged with lightning.

Slann aren't predators. Being powerful is not synonymous with what that means.
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Depends on how literally one is using the term predator, though even by the most literal definition of the term, neither does having a longer natural lifespan necessarily make you a better predator, and dragons these days often need to hibrenate as well.
 
Mopman43 said:
Dragons had power and near immunity to age without needing to make a pact with the dark gods and give up both the ability to reproduce and to act without being charged with lightning.

Slann aren't predators. Being powerful is not synonymous with what that means.
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And dragons can fly and breath fire. They can just harass the shaggoth from afar without them being able to do anything.

Imperious said:
Depends on how literally one is using the term predator, though even by the most literal definition of the term, neither does having a longer natural lifespan necessarily make you a better predator, and dragons these days often need to hibrenate as well.
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Dragons aren't indeed not apex predators because they've a longer natural lifespan. They're apex predators because they're nearly invulnerable flying monsters who can breath fire and are as smart as people.
 
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Imperious said:
I'm not sure that the dragons would be considered the planet's apex predators when those are a thing. IIRC there's some background about how prior to the arrival of the Old Ones the dragons and the dragon ogres would war against each other, and that Indraugnir wanted the dragons to go into hiding from the Slann. Though I suppose depending on how literal you're being with the term apex predator then the Slann might not count.
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Average dragon is far more powerful than the average dragon ogre, and Slann are in no way, shape or form predators. Also you're confusing the Slann for the Old Ones.
 
K von Carstein said:
And dragons can fly and breath fire. They can just harass the shaggoth from afar without them being able to do anything.
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Depends on how strong that fire breath is and how far the dragon can actually shoot it, since it needs to be both strong enough to cause harm to the dragon ogre, and have a long enough range that the dragon ogre won't be able to reach them with their arms. In extremis I doubt there's any dragon on the planet that can shoot a fire breath at Krakanork the Black without also having to get close enough to be at risk of getting their neck wringed.

Dragon ogres can also use weapons appropriate for their size for extra reach since they have hands.
K von Carstein said:
Dragons aren't indeed not apex predators because they've a longer natural lifespan. They're apex predators because they're nearly invulnerable flying monsters who can breath fire and are as smart as people.
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Well yes, but the post I was responding to was saying that dragons are superior predators to dragon ogres because dragons didn't need to have a pact with Chaos in order to have an indefinite life span, rather then any of the things you mentioned.

Blackout said:
Average dragon is far more powerful than the average dragon ogre, and Slann are in no way, shape or form predators. Also you're confusing the Slann for the Old Ones.
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Are there canonical depictions of dragon Vs Dragon ogre? For another idea, what about coatls?
 
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Imperious said:
Depends on how strong that fire breath is and how far the dragon can actually shoot it, since it needs to be both strong enough to cause harm to the dragon ogre, and have a long enough range that the dragon ogre won't be able to reach them with their arms. In extremis I doubt there's any dragon on the planet that can shoot a fire breath at Krakanork the Black without also having to get close enough to be at risk of getting their neck wringed.
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Dragon breath is pretty destructive, and it doesn't have to kill the shaggoth in one go. I also doubt it has a range short enough that the average shaggoth can grab the average dragon, and at worst the dragon can use its mobility to hit the shaggoth's rear and its back legs. And comparing Krakarnok to an average dragon is like comparing an adult wolf against a bear cub. It's an easy win, but the adult bear will maul the adult wolf without troubles. Against Indraugnir, things are going to be pretty different.
 
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Blackout said:
Even if they do (And Liber Necris is a hilariously unreliable source)
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I checked the, 6th edition, Vampire Counts army book and it says more or less the same:
"Now he ('he' here referring to Abhorash) bid his vampiric minions to go forth and hone their martial skills, so that when their prowess equalled his own they could also escape the curse of vampirism and become free of the predator inside them."
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So it's not just Manfred saying this.

Blackout said:
Are you just going to nitpick every single thing that I say?
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Sorry:oops:

I may be suffering from some dragon related trauma from a different quest that involved a dragon erupting out of the Masif Orcal like a volcanic discharge...
 
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If Blood Dragons actively hunted Dragons, then there would be a lot more instances of that.

There are no known instances of direct dragons vs dragon ogre fighting in the lore, but dragons are said to have been dominant lifeforms on Mallus before the Old Ones, and based on their respective portrayals as well as common sense I conclude that dragons are stronger. If you want to talk about Krakonrok, compare him to Draugnir.

Coatls are not peers to dragons, they are much smaller and slimmer.

That is my last post on the topic.
 
Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames
-[X] Clear Sky

Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Clear Sky

Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames

Just throwing in an approval vote for the 5 spell plan.
 
On a different subject @Blackout, between Galrauch and the Celestial Dragon Emperor, who is more powerful? I figure that since Galrauch was said to be second only to Indraugnir among the Ulthuani dragons, while Minathnir, a different Ulthuani dragon, is larger then any active dragon alive, including the dragon emperor's own children, that it means that the most powerful dragon still alive is likely one of those two now that Indraugnir is dead. Both the Celestial Dragon Emperor and Galrauch are powerful mages as well, so I'm not sure either of them has the advantage on the other on that matter.
 
Sigh... do you know you could just sit back a bit on the open bus and enjoy the wind / the landscape where the driver is bringing us? I don't know any of the Dragons you mentioned (apart from having heard of Indraugnir and the Celestial Dragon-Emperor), and all of them have been dead for so long that they aren't really relevant to the story.
Especially when we are a (newly-fallen) peasant that must still learn beast-speak and financial management to maybe have a demigryph one day^^
 
Netos said:
Sigh... do you know you could just sit back a bit on the open bus and enjoy the wind / the landscape where the driver is bringing us? I don't know any of the Dragons you mentioned (apart from having heard of Indraugnir and the Celestial Dragon-Emperor), and all of them have been dead for so long that they aren't really relevant to the story.
Especially when we are a (newly-fallen) peasant that must still learn beast-speak and financial management to maybe have a demigryph one day^^
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Galrauch is actually still alive. He's the father of Chaos Dragons, may even end up showing up during the GWAC. Still, I'll drop the line of inquiry if Blackout doesn't care for it.
 
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Imperious said:
On a different subject @Blackout, between Galrauch and the Celestial Dragon Emperor, who is more powerful? I figure that since Galrauch was said to be second only to Indraugnir among the Ulthuani dragons, while Minathnir, a different Ulthuani dragon, is larger then any active dragon alive, including the dragon emperor's own children, that it means that the most powerful dragon still alive is likely one of those two now that Indraugnir is dead. Both the Celestial Dragon Emperor and Galrauch are powerful mages as well, so I'm not sure either of them has the advantage on the other on that matter.
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Nobody knows.
 
Imperious said:
Galrauch is actually still alive. He's the father of Chaos Dragons, may even end up showing up during the GWAC. Still, I'll drop the line of inquiry if Blackout doesn't care for it.
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Fun fact, there was one White Dwarf article about Galrauch that did place him as active during the GWAC, and also stated he was responsible for the destruction of Karak Vlag (in contravention of every other source about Karak Vlag), saying that he was nesting in/under the Karak prior to the GWAC and destroyed it on his way out.
 
Mopman43 said:
Fun fact, there was one White Dwarf article about Galrauch that did place him as active during the GWAC, and also stated he was responsible for the destruction of Karak Vlag (in contravention of every other source about Karak Vlag), saying that he was nesting in/under the Karak prior to the GWAC and destroyed it on his way out.
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Good news everybody, Chaos are going to have during the GWAC a viable contender for most powerful dragon on the planet fighting on their side.

Altom said:
You can't just drop something like that and not give a link
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Here you go:
The Seasons of Hellfire would later be recorded to have begun on the last day of Spring in the Imperial Year 2544, when at the stroke of midnight the Chaos Moon Morrslieb shuddered and visible cracks ran through it as though the gods themselves had struck it's surface. It was to be to the woe of a great many innocents throughout the world as the slivers of Morrslieb that had been thrown off it's cracked surface fell to earth in a great shower that lit the night sky with streaks of green and black fire that lingered upon the fabric of the starry sky long into the next day.

One such sliver had streaked downwards and disappeared into the mountains of the Massif Orcal, it's impact lighting up the sky with a hellish red glow as it plummeted into the maw of the volcano nestled deep within the Massif Orcal recently named Mount Cinder Crown. A great plume of ash being vomited up into the sky that began to settle on all the lands on the edges of the Massif Orcal.

It wasn't until two days later that the first refugees, ash covered, terrified and sobbing, spoke of a great evil that had been awoken by the sliver of Morrslieb fallen to earth. From those few who still had their wits about them you learned that the fiefdoms of the mountains had been attacked, their knights incinerated and their homes torched around them. The survivors fled, hounded by the winged terror and made sport of by the greenskins of the mountains until they reached the next fiefdom where the terror would visit ruin upon it as well.

When pressed on what news the survivors had of Sir Jacquiste, or your brother Jacque, they would only shake their heads, clenching eyes tight in sorrow or mourning as tears wound their way down ash streaked cheeks.
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Then there was that weird time when we were thinking the dragon and the PC's brother may have become an item...
 
Mopman43 said:
Fun fact, there was one White Dwarf article about Galrauch that did place him as active during the GWAC, and also stated he was responsible for the destruction of Karak Vlag (in contravention of every other source about Karak Vlag), saying that he was nesting in/under the Karak prior to the GWAC and destroyed it on his way out.
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I'm not aware of any other sources for what happened to Karak Vlag, as far as I know others just left it as a mystery.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Well, unless you go north of the border and the hedgewise stop getting called hedgewise and start being hag witches.
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Well that's because Hag Witches are explicitly not Hedgewise. They do a hell of a lot more spirit wrangling, for starters.

Also regarding Vampires and what winds they can yield, as of WFRP 4e there is at least one Nechrarch that can wield Ghryan due to being a druid in life. I can only imagine how fuckin weird it must feel to him when he does so. And I have no clue if such circumstances leading to such results are canon to this quest.
 
Blackout said:
I'm not aware of any other sources for what happened to Karak Vlag, as far as I know others just left it as a mystery.
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Every other* source** I'm aware of says that it completely disappeared mysteriously, while that WD article had it being conveniently destroyed by Galrauch with survivors to speak about it, is the difference I was pointing out.

*Except for 2e Tome of Salvation going completely wild and claiming it disappeared millennia ago and that the survivors became the Chaos Dwarfs
**There's also another WD article (#343) that said outright that it was disappeared by Slaanesh with a Throng that was outside the hold itself killed in an event called the Hunt of the Vlagians.
 
Imperious said:
Fair. I do think the Ox Stands is something we could do without, though that might be some bias from Total War affecting me, where morale buffs are kind of UP, particularly on a high leadership faction like High Elves, but perhaps it is worth it to have an approval vote for a fifth spell in Stoke the Flames.
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Mmm - Total War games underplay the importance of morale, mostly because an army whose soldiers break realistically doesn't fit with the design philosophy of precise unit control that they go for. Devereaux has a blog post on the subject here that elaborates on the contrast.*

Still, even if I'd be disappointed not to take what I'd consider the most impactful spell on offer here... As Gnarker said - approval votes are a thing! Adding the Stoke the Flames plan to my own list. More spells good.

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Clear Sky

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames
-[X] Mountainwind Curse

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames
-[X] Clear Sky

[X] Yes, you wish to buy spells from the Middenheimers.
-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] The Ox Stands
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames
-[X] Clear Sky
-[X] Mountainwind Curse

-[X] Cowering Beasts (Advance)
-[X] Beast Tongue
-[X] Earthwall
-[X] Stoke the Flames
-[X] Clear Sky

*I'm aware of Torroar's analysis post in the ADoDA thread on the psychological factors of warfare in the Warhammer world; read said post a couple of months ago and have my own thoughts - some agreement, some disagreement - that I'd like to write down at some point! Only when I have the time to give it the consideration it deserves, though.
 
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Talon TigerDino said:
Well that's because Hag Witches are explicitly not Hedgewise. They do a hell of a lot more spirit wrangling, for starters.

Also regarding Vampires and what winds they can yield, as of WFRP 4e there is at least one Nechrarch that can wield Ghryan due to being a druid in life. I can only imagine how fuckin weird it must feel to him when he does so. And I have no clue if such circumstances leading to such results are canon to this quest.
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I wonder if he could wield Qhyash...
 
Mopman43 said:
Every other* source** I'm aware of says that it completely disappeared mysteriously, while that WD article had it being conveniently destroyed by Galrauch with survivors to speak about it, is the difference I was pointing out.
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The white dwarf story about Galrauch says that his sorcery shifted the entire hold into the Realm of Chaos, which would fit the "disappeared mysteriously" criteria.

Mopman43 said:
**There's also another WD article (#343) that said outright that it was disappeared by Slaanesh with a Throng that was outside the hold itself killed in an event called the Hunt of the Vlagians.
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Huh, I thought that was just Boney coming up with his own answer to the mystery.
 
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