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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
But it would be cool, would it not? And that is the most important thing, in the end.
No but seriously, I think we really should try to develop some way to do area denial. I don't like at all the idea that pretty much anyone can just walz into our territory and scout us. Also, if they can scout they can do long-range missile harrasment against targets that cannot dodge, like planets or stations. I don't like the idea of an adversary launching long-range nukes against our planets from the other side of the solar system.
If the mass drivers/railguns lack range, missile- or torpedo-based "mines" are of course also an option. Of course, then enemy PD can shoot them down, but it would at least make considerably more risky for them.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Space is just too gigantic to really set up a chokepoint; at best we can deny orbitals.
We do have like 18k of dock space now so we have a lot more options opening up. I think a dedicated, 8-10k ship might be a good idea once we've got our CFAs rolling off the yards and we have our refits etc handled.
Also, @4WheelSword how much PD do you need to effectively defeat a 144 missile barrage, anyway? 🤔
We do have like 18k of dock space now so we have a lot more options opening up. I think a dedicated, 8-10k ship might be a good idea once we've got our CFAs rolling off the yards and we have our refits etc handled.
Also, @4WheelSword how much PD do you need to effectively defeat a 144 missile barrage, anyway? 🤔
It's obviously not a good look, but I think we should propose an amendment to the Articles of Humanitarian Warfare, allowing the use of non-fusion/fission radiation-based weapons against non-signatories of the treaty that possess nuclear weapons.
The only signatories so far are us, our allies, and the Aslan mercs—all people that we hold leverage over. We should be able to make the case that with Hermosa's incursion into Equus, the military situation has changed, and maintaining particle weapons is necessary to protect ourselves—and them too. Every credit spent on swapping out particle beams for an equivalent (or even less effective) weapon is one not spent on other urgent defense needs.
The only signatories so far are us, our allies, and the Aslan mercs—all people that we hold leverage over. We should be able to make the case that with Hermosa's incursion into Equus, the military situation has changed, and maintaining particle weapons is necessary to protect ourselves—and them too. Every credit spent on swapping out particle beams for an equivalent (or even less effective) weapon is one not spent on other urgent defense needs.
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Even then, they lack range to stop outer-system scouting. What we can do is deny access to a body by surrounding it with torpedo-mines.But it would be cool, would it not? And that is the most important thing, in the end.
No but seriously, I think we really should try to develop some way to do area denial. I don't like at all the idea that pretty much anyone can just walz into our territory and scout us. Also, if they can scout they can do long-range missile harrasment against targets that cannot dodge, like planets or stations. I don't like the idea of an adversary launching long-range nukes against our planets from the other side of the solar system.
If the mass drivers/railguns lack range, missile- or torpedo-based "mines" are of course also an option. Of course, then enemy PD can shoot them down, but it would at least make considerably more risky for them.
Anywas, voting time.
[X] Plan: Peekaboo
-[X] We do not appreciate scouting flights, but we cannot stop them. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone of the same type.
-[X] Write-in: Send missions to Shambala, Hexos, and Nova Refugio. Inform Hexos and Nova Refugio that Equus has been conquered by the Hermosans and offer to station tripwire forces there, for their protection. Station a tripwire force above Shambala to protect it from Hermosan aggression.
-[X] Lay down a Cruiser, Fast Attack (3,000 tons). Which variant?
--[X] C
-[X] Lay down a third Modern Defence Station (2500 tons)
-[X] Build 150 remotely-operated torpedo mines to bolster the range and firepower of defensive stations.
Even just limiting where the Hermosan scouts can scout would be useful, right? Put the minefield around the inner parts of the system and let them waste time scouting the deep space on the outside, if they want.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
TO completely no sell it? 36 triple beam and sand turrets.
Yeah, especially if we remember that space is three-dimensional and enemy ships may leave the ecliptic plane and move "above" or "below" it.
Our 18k are divided between everal shipyards (two or three of them - Home's yeard, Cassalon's ex-Dynast's and Cassalon's ex-Junta's). I don't really remember what is the size of Home's shipyard, but that should be biggest one (and our biggest ship could be of that size).
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] OPLAN: Paris of Troy
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Well, vote time it is then
[] Plan I Don't Like Your Behaviour (But I May Have a Use for It)
-[] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (raid, SIGINT) action.
---[] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
---[] If such a resistance exists, plan a limited stealth infantry raid in support of it, with priority for evacuation of local government leadership, the wounded, or prisoners of war held by Hermosan forces.
---[] If no raid is possible, OR immediately after it, make a new diplomatic contact (possibly brief, if they would want to attack the diploship on spot). Equus was our peacuful neighbour, and we disapprove of the conquest, and want to engage in a diplomatic talks about its fate. If we had a successful raid before that and Hermosans are salty of it, call it a retaliation for unwelcomed scouting of our space after we told "no".
-[] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
[] Plan I Still Sell Your Behaviour for Political Gains (But Cautiously)
-[] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (SIGINT) action.
---[] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
-[] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
Second plan drops raiding Equus and diplomatically engaging Hermosa about Equus, at least for a time. It still proposes to get intel on Hermosans occupying it and to sell it as an integration incentive to Xyri/Nova Refugio/Hexus. I still prefer first one.
[] Plan I Don't Like Your Behaviour (But I May Have a Use for It)
-[] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (raid, SIGINT) action.
---[] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
---[] If such a resistance exists, plan a limited stealth infantry raid in support of it, with priority for evacuation of local government leadership, the wounded, or prisoners of war held by Hermosan forces.
---[] If no raid is possible, OR immediately after it, make a new diplomatic contact (possibly brief, if they would want to attack the diploship on spot). Equus was our peacuful neighbour, and we disapprove of the conquest, and want to engage in a diplomatic talks about its fate. If we had a successful raid before that and Hermosans are salty of it, call it a retaliation for unwelcomed scouting of our space after we told "no".
-[] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
[] Plan I Still Sell Your Behaviour for Political Gains (But Cautiously)
-[] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (SIGINT) action.
---[] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
-[] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
Second plan drops raiding Equus and diplomatically engaging Hermosa about Equus, at least for a time. It still proposes to get intel on Hermosans occupying it and to sell it as an integration incentive to Xyri/Nova Refugio/Hexus. I still prefer first one.
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[X] Plan I Cautiously Disapprove Of Your Behaviour (But My Behaviour's Worse)
-[X] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[X] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (SIGINT) action.
---[X] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
-[X] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[X] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[X] Lobby for an amendment to the Articles of Humanitarian Warfare, allowing the use of radiological but non-fission/fusion weapons against non-signatories of the treaty that also possess nuclear weapons. Make the case that the military situation has changed since the treaty was signed, and that if we cannot use particle beams, then all signatory states will be vulnerable to Hermosan expansionism. Hopefully the Citizens' Council and our allies will see reason.
-[X] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[X] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
-[X] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[X] Via either assistance from our local Aslan mercenary contacts or our new Cassaloni joint command, launch a combined SIGINT effort to contact Equus' local government and population. Hire both Aslan companies to keep on retainment in Heimdall, to be ready to be used as part of defensive or offensive (SIGINT) action.
---[X] Learn of situation on Equus - is the new political situation truly so harmonious and nice? If, as we suppose, this was a conquest, get all the possible info on Hermosan occupation force, tactics and so on from the local resistance.
-[X] If this was a conquest, infrom powers on Xyri about it and propose the same defense integration that we have with Cassalon. Inform Hexos about it and propose them the same or same-ish defense integration. Inform Nova Refugio and propose the same or same-ish integration.
-[X] Refit 3 Interstellar Cruisers - un-mothball the ones that we put in reserve previously for it, rather than recall ones from Heimdall (3000 tons)
-[X] Lobby for an amendment to the Articles of Humanitarian Warfare, allowing the use of radiological but non-fission/fusion weapons against non-signatories of the treaty that also possess nuclear weapons. Make the case that the military situation has changed since the treaty was signed, and that if we cannot use particle beams, then all signatory states will be vulnerable to Hermosan expansionism. Hopefully the Citizens' Council and our allies will see reason.
-[X] Lay down a new MDC (2500 tons)
-[X] Experiment with remotely-operated torpedo mines on 150 tons left
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I'm in favor of maintaining some nukes/particle weapons as "response in kind", sort of like the old "we won't use nukes if you don't" thing we've got going.
Doing napkin math, the 2000 ton combat vessel probably has six large missile bays; considering they're slower and they're probably cramming crew into barracks accommodations, they could feasibly fit an additional fourteen turrets of mixed laser/sandcaster weaponry with an M-4 drive and 6 points of armor, plus two jumps.
In comparison, the CFA-A has an M-6 drive, probably better armor, a missile barrage of half, but also carries some harder hitting beam laser barbettes (which, if they do have lower armor, will be effective) plus more laser, PD, and sandcaster turrets.
CFA-B is similar.
CFA-C has much less missile value but will hit harder in the range band of its LMDs, ditto the CFA-D which also maintains a decent missile punch and also has more turrets.
All of them have enough turrets (20 to 24, depending on variant) to mitigate the damage caused by the enemy missile barrages, but will not be able to no-sell them unless working concert with the revamped ICs and escort frigates. However, all CFA variants, thanks in part to the higher tonnage, will be more resilient to damage and with their better speed can actually close the engagement range to a more suitable band for the use of their secondary beam laser barbettes or their LMDs, while also hitting back with torpedo or missile fire.
The original IC would be able to output a lot of hurt with their particle weapons array, but as built the PD network (only eight double turrets) would be overwhelmed, even working with another IC.
I mean, that's basically what they're doing right now - jumping into the outer system, taking a quick look at what they can see (number of ships, approximate size, etc.) and then leaving.
We can build ships in sections and then assemble them, it just takes a bit longer and costs a bit more iirc.
Thanks!
Doing napkin math, the 2000 ton combat vessel probably has six large missile bays; considering they're slower and they're probably cramming crew into barracks accommodations, they could feasibly fit an additional fourteen turrets of mixed laser/sandcaster weaponry with an M-4 drive and 6 points of armor, plus two jumps.
In comparison, the CFA-A has an M-6 drive, probably better armor, a missile barrage of half, but also carries some harder hitting beam laser barbettes (which, if they do have lower armor, will be effective) plus more laser, PD, and sandcaster turrets.
CFA-B is similar.
CFA-C has much less missile value but will hit harder in the range band of its LMDs, ditto the CFA-D which also maintains a decent missile punch and also has more turrets.
All of them have enough turrets (20 to 24, depending on variant) to mitigate the damage caused by the enemy missile barrages, but will not be able to no-sell them unless working concert with the revamped ICs and escort frigates. However, all CFA variants, thanks in part to the higher tonnage, will be more resilient to damage and with their better speed can actually close the engagement range to a more suitable band for the use of their secondary beam laser barbettes or their LMDs, while also hitting back with torpedo or missile fire.
The original IC would be able to output a lot of hurt with their particle weapons array, but as built the PD network (only eight double turrets) would be overwhelmed, even working with another IC.
I mean, that's basically what they're doing right now - jumping into the outer system, taking a quick look at what they can see (number of ships, approximate size, etc.) and then leaving.
We can build ships in sections and then assemble them, it just takes a bit longer and costs a bit more iirc.
Thanks!
No, I mean yes, but with Heimdall modular station we ended up with it being unarmored (and a Disperse Structure - more vulnerable type of hull). Though there should be way to build ships that can "decouple" its parts, so maybe we can.
Anyways, Home's shipyard in the beginning of quest was 8k tons, so 8K ton ship is totally possible. It had also grown recently,
It's 9,750 Tons now
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Yeah, so an 8k heavy should be doable. 🤔
- Location
- Here, there, everywhere.
I think the more insulting thing is they insist that because we dare to jump into their territory then we should submit to inspection, while they think they can just do whatever they want in other people's territory with no recompense.
I support getting our PD cruisers online asap, as well as MDS in Heimdall and deep probing Hermosa
I think we should get those planned out, yes.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
[X] OPLAN: Paris of Troy
-[X] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[X] Passive flights into Equus should collect as much SIGINT as possible to determine the fate of the original inhabitants; due to lack of trade ties and inability to control local transmissions, it is likely that information will be scarce, but analysis of propaganda broadcasts, civilian traffic (if any), etc. should provide a small, incomplete picture.
--[X] Evaluate the feasibility of and execute a deep penetration mission of the same type to go either via Sinone or the empty parsec between Heimdall and Hermosa for a similar mission to Hermosa; execute once three CFAs are complete and available for deployment to Heimdall as this may be viewed as a provocation.
--[X] Recall monitor; maintain other forces in-system, rotating in Interstellar Cruiser Refits and CFAs when available. Do not utilize CFAs for passive monitoring; we want the Hermosans to assume they are the same type as the MMV for as long as possible.
--[X] Begin research, preparation, and wargaming for WARPLAN YELLOW, supposing an attack of Home Forces out of Heimdall into Sinone or Equus or both simultaneously. Incorporate intelligence gained via passive surveillance flights as it becomes available.
--[X] Begin research, preparation and wargaming for WARPLAN RED, supposing an attack from Hermosa into Heimdall out of Sinone or Sinone and Equus simultaneously. Assume that minimal operational warning will be provided, as passive scouting missions will be able to ascertain the status of our defenses within the system. Incorporate intelligence gained via passive surveillance flights as it becomes available.
--[X] Create HEIMDALL SECTOR COMMAND, which will take responsibility of command for all future operations in Heimdall and the "south"; if possible, establish local HQ in Heimdall. Considering travel distance to Home and HSWS HQ is almost a month, it is deemed necessary for an independent sector command to be officially created to respond to events as they transpire rather than relaying on ad hoc task force command structures.
--[X] Inquire with the Aslan mercenary companies as to their price to be on retainer for a potential peer conflict.
-[X] Lay down a new CFA-C.
-[X] lay down a new MDS.
-[X] Begin experimentation and creation of passive torpedo mines with remaining tonnage and budget.
-[X] Consult with new Cassalon officers and staff as to their own opinions on warship design to see if they have any input or insights that the HSWS may have missed.
-[X] Dispatch mission to Hexos, Nova Refugo, and Shambala to inform the local inhabitants (in the case of Nova Refugo and Hexos) of developments and the apparent presence of an expansionist force. Nova Refugo is, of course, already aware of their existence but they will likely wish to know that Hermosa is beginning an expansion drive. Shambala will simply be monitored for some time to ensure that the Hermosans aren't making eyes at it.
-[X] Until such a time as particle beams are phased out of the ICs, their use is authorized only in the event of nuclear or particle beam attack against Home vessels.
Bah, I don't normally like writing HUGE plans but there's a lot going on here.
-[X] We do not appreciate scouting flights and this sort of expansionism, which is clearly inferior to our own expansionism. Plan for response flights into Equus and Sinone.
--[X] Passive flights into Equus should collect as much SIGINT as possible to determine the fate of the original inhabitants; due to lack of trade ties and inability to control local transmissions, it is likely that information will be scarce, but analysis of propaganda broadcasts, civilian traffic (if any), etc. should provide a small, incomplete picture.
--[X] Evaluate the feasibility of and execute a deep penetration mission of the same type to go either via Sinone or the empty parsec between Heimdall and Hermosa for a similar mission to Hermosa; execute once three CFAs are complete and available for deployment to Heimdall as this may be viewed as a provocation.
--[X] Recall monitor; maintain other forces in-system, rotating in Interstellar Cruiser Refits and CFAs when available. Do not utilize CFAs for passive monitoring; we want the Hermosans to assume they are the same type as the MMV for as long as possible.
--[X] Begin research, preparation, and wargaming for WARPLAN YELLOW, supposing an attack of Home Forces out of Heimdall into Sinone or Equus or both simultaneously. Incorporate intelligence gained via passive surveillance flights as it becomes available.
--[X] Begin research, preparation and wargaming for WARPLAN RED, supposing an attack from Hermosa into Heimdall out of Sinone or Sinone and Equus simultaneously. Assume that minimal operational warning will be provided, as passive scouting missions will be able to ascertain the status of our defenses within the system. Incorporate intelligence gained via passive surveillance flights as it becomes available.
--[X] Create HEIMDALL SECTOR COMMAND, which will take responsibility of command for all future operations in Heimdall and the "south"; if possible, establish local HQ in Heimdall. Considering travel distance to Home and HSWS HQ is almost a month, it is deemed necessary for an independent sector command to be officially created to respond to events as they transpire rather than relaying on ad hoc task force command structures.
--[X] Inquire with the Aslan mercenary companies as to their price to be on retainer for a potential peer conflict.
-[X] Lay down a new CFA-C.
-[X] lay down a new MDS.
-[X] Begin experimentation and creation of passive torpedo mines with remaining tonnage and budget.
-[X] Consult with new Cassalon officers and staff as to their own opinions on warship design to see if they have any input or insights that the HSWS may have missed.
-[X] Dispatch mission to Hexos, Nova Refugo, and Shambala to inform the local inhabitants (in the case of Nova Refugo and Hexos) of developments and the apparent presence of an expansionist force. Nova Refugo is, of course, already aware of their existence but they will likely wish to know that Hermosa is beginning an expansion drive. Shambala will simply be monitored for some time to ensure that the Hermosans aren't making eyes at it.
-[X] Until such a time as particle beams are phased out of the ICs, their use is authorized only in the event of nuclear or particle beam attack against Home vessels.
Bah, I don't normally like writing HUGE plans but there's a lot going on here.
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Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
- Location
- Misery!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] OPLAN: Paris of Troy
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
OK, had some discussion - the main issue is we do want to tripwire the rest of the "south" to ensure that they Hermosans aren't poking around there either, but we need hulls to do that and if we want to maintain the ready reserve/expeditionary fleet in Heimdall, we have to commit four ICs. If we take the other two IC out of mothballs there are another six hulls available; this goes down to three if we immediately slap three more into refit. Unfortunately, I may have to switch to a CFA just to ensure we have forces available for rotation and for maintaining a trip wire force in Hexos and Shambala.
Alternately we could use the spare couriers as the tripwire and a presence, but they're not at all intimidating.
Alternately we could use the spare couriers as the tripwire and a presence, but they're not at all intimidating.
[X] OPLAN: Paris of Troy
I like this plan, but what is the policy for the use of nukes and particle beams? My suggestion is that we try to add a clause to the treaties about them not applying when fighting non-signatories. Then, we could ask Hermosa to sign the treaty and when they refuse, which they are likely to do, we have the moral justification to use Particle Beams on them.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
My current thought is it's treated very much as chem weapons in WW2 or nukes in the cold war - use remains authorized only if the enemy utilizes atomics, etc. and this will only last until they're phased out.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
We do have the range (two out, two back) with drop tanks, but it'd be worthwhile, yeah.