1) Primordials are very much not gods. To compare them is akin to comparing a mortal and a celestial tier god at least.
2) I am fairly sure that the cycle of reincarnation itself kept functioning. Please provide citation about it breaking.
1) Molly is not Creation either. That was the point of the comparison
Creation's cycle took all the Primordials to make, and still broke under the weight of the death of entities who came from outside the system. Sanctuary is a much smaller enterprise, and relative to it, a god is significantly larger. IMO.
2) The cycle of reincarnation broke. There wasnt an Underworld, there werent supposed to be ghosts or shadowlands; everything was supposed to move along briskly. Everything you see in the Second Age is Creation malfunctioning after the Primordial War, which was worsened by the Great Contagion+Balorean Crusade.
I'll try to find my copy of Compass: Underworld later this evening.
You are inventing stuff here. They might have some means of tracking him, maybe. We can't be sure right now. We have put multiple people with at least the same level of magical connections to our enemies into Sanctuary before, and are keeping some of them there even now.
The closest we've come to putting that kind of stuff in Sanctuary are half-Reds and I think two Reds whose sires I think we killed on Arianna's plane, and who as far as we know left no arcane links behind them.
I think we even avoided bringing Nora's ancestor to Sanctuary for this reason.
A god who was successfully bound and imprisoned, and has been acting as slushy pack for the Red King and his nobles for the last millenia and apparently was supposed to be a LoON's drink is a very different proposition.
How much of his blood is just lying around in the Red King's fridge, for example?
Hell no. On this your just being pedantic in a blatantly dishonest way.
It's been described more than once in story and out of story that the Planet is Molly and Molly is the Planet. This is not debatable.
Uju we retroactively created the planet in the depths of the NerveNver, if we were just linked that would imply that it was already part of the creation beforehand and not a place that the Swords cannot go. The planet is explicitly our future world body.
We are the planet.
Furthermore we are primordial because DragonParadox explicitly said that here we only have the charm of the Realm because one of the previous incarnations of Molly's Exaltation went through the entire Devil-Tiger process which results in the birth of a new primordial, not a diminished Yozi, free of the oaths.
Creation's Wheel broke under the weight of a bunch of Primordials becoming Neverborn.
We are not Creation. Sanctuary is not Creation, which was custom-built by a bunch of Primordials working together.
I rather doubt we are rated for anything like the same stresses, and I think its an unnecessary risk to test this.
They know ABOUT Sanctuary.
They dont know WHERE Sanctuary is in the NeverNever.
Putting a dude with the magical equivalent of a LoJack tracker will tell them precisely where it is.
"Awaiting the return of their Creator, She in Whose Soul they are Cradled, though that last piece of the puzzle is known only to certain esoteric sects in the City of Fountains, Monastery of the World-Song. The Throne becomes you Majesty and you are Becoming."
"Both of you know I'm not entirely here, you've seen the other side, Dad's been there, to Sanctuary, at least to the palace, the hologlyphs don't really do the rest of it justice..." Is that vain for me to say? You shake off the question, small insignificant thing. Once before and to a very different audience you had made this point. "I'm like an elephant behind a curtain, poking her trunk through, I just learned how to make another hole."
Molly describes herself that is talking to her parents in a human form as not being "entirely here" and describes Sanctuary as "the other side [of herself]"
1) Molly is not Creation either. That was the point of the comparison
Creation's cycle took all the Primordials to make, and still broke under the weight of the death of entities who came from outside the system. Sanctuary is a much smaller enterprise, and relative to it, a god is significantly larger. IMO.
Autochtonia, which isn't Creation, but is a sickly, dying and weak Autochton (remember, by Primordial measure he's not strong), comfortably hosted multiple gods.
The closest we've come to putting that kind of stuff in Sanctuary are half-Reds and I think two Reds whose sires I think we killed on Arianna's plane, and who as far as we know left no arcane links behind them.
I think we even avoided bringing Nora's ancestor to Sanctuary for this reason.
I am fairly sure we brought Nora's ancestor to Sanctuary, but, honestly, this doesn't matter. Tiffany has visited multiple times. And if you tell me that TIffany doesn't have an arcane link to Lasciel, I will laugh in your face.
We've received explicit warning about Coins.
We are under notice that it is possible for potential fuckery to go on.
He said, but whether thats actually true is unclear.
Im working off what the QM said up-page that we can get him to stop. We just need to convince him, and thats a social roll.
Once he's not dead or killing himself any longer, we can explore other options.
Besides, I had forgotten that ro reply this, as you like to remember, angels are on another level, not even comparable to the simple gods of this planet.
And the problem was not that we could not contain the Coins, the problem is that we can contain them so well within our world that it gives Lucifer, an Archangel, carte blanche, to break us like dried biscuits to recover them, without Heaven being able to do anything to stop it.
Not entirely happy with BronzeTongue's, so Im modifying it a little and stealing his stunt
VOTE
[X]BronzeTongue
[X]Plan Suicide Line
-[X] Try to keep the dying god from completely feeding itself to vampires
--[X] Empathy/Etiquette Excellency: 1m
--[X] Active Effects: Without Honor + Boiling Sea Mastery + Shintai modifier
--[X] Sophia: Use Break the Bonds + Howl of Healing: 2WP.
--[X] [STUNT]: Drawing herself up, the sky around their stretch of forest changed. An iron wind blocking out the wider world as a false dawn of lightning glimmered in the distance.
—[X] "Do you truly wish for this death to be the end? The slayers of your kin live in the ruins of your home, wearing your faces as masks and dealing falsely with your followers. Even now they lie, cheat, and steal with the aim of snuffing out the wisdom in mortal eyes" Molly gestured to the wizards watching them speak.
—[X] "Worse still; they conspire with the enemy of all, foolishly thinking they can manipulate the Outside to their advantage." As she continues Molly's voice takes on gripping energy, the hush of an oncoming storm. "In my domain death is but the start of a new life. I cannot promise success, but I can offer a chance"
—[X] "A new age nears, will you join us in it?"
The scenarios seem to be relatively similar to each other.
Creation was the work of a pantheon of Primordials, and got overstrained first by the emergence of the Neverborn, and then by the upsurge in deaths during the Great Contagion + Balorean Crusade.
Sanctuary is the work of an E4 Infernal.
Its tolerances, its capacity is less. You arent pulling an E8 lesser elemental dragon out of Molly's internals, like you can in Creation or Autochtonia.
===
Where does it say it has this tracking mechanism? I don't remember Molly noticing it or the GM pointing it out to us.
If it's just you logical interference, I don't recommend using it as an interference point as argument.
Autochtonia, which isn't Creation, but is a sickly, dying and weak Autochton (remember, by Primordial measure he's not strong), comfortably hosted multiple gods.
I am fairly sure we brought Nora's ancestor to Sanctuary, but, honestly, this doesn't matter. Tiffany has visited multiple times. And if you tell me that TIffany doesn't have an arcane link to Lasciel, I will laugh in your face.
She doesnt. Not anymore.
We broke it when we used Sapphire Circle Exorcism on her and Dresden, and confirmed that after putting her in a new body.
We built her new body from scratch; we would have noticed an ongoing arcane link that significant when we put her in it.
Besides, I had forgotten that ro reply this, as you like to remember, angels are on another level, not even comparable to the simple gods of this planet.
And the problem was not that we could not contain the Coins, the problem is that we can contain them so well within our world that it gives Lucifer, an Archangel, carte blanche, to break us like dried biscuits to recover them, without Heaven being able to do anything to stop it.
Yup. Angels are post-Celestine.
Fallen are limited in their ability to act while in their Coins, but they are still angel-weight actors.
Just their presence causes agony:
Dad straightens hand reaching out for the sword on the table maybe even without meaning to.
"The Fallen who follow Anduriel will come against you, soon or late, but come they will. Do not attempt to seal any coins you might capture within your soul. You might be able to contain one, though it would be agony with every breath, in time you might even be able to befuddle and trick them to make the task easier. None of that matters for in taking them beyond the reach of mortal temptation you will have permitted Lucifer great latitude in breaking them out."
And breaking me in the process, the addendum does not need to be spoken in order to be heard.
With these words Uriel gets up to leave, by the door you notice even though he obviously does not have to. He's polite in addition to all his other virtues.
Note the phrasing:
Its not break Molly to break them out, its break them out and break Molly in the process.
And while this is speculation....How do you suppose Lucifer knows if they are in Sanctuary in the first place?
He isnt the White God, he isnt omniscient.
The Infernal shapes her heart, soul, and Essence into the shape of a realm of her devising, featuring whatever oddities of geography or natural law suit her nature.
There are other quotes but they are a bit scattered and I am now preoccupied so it would have to wait. DP's direct statement should be more than enough regardless of anything else.
The scenarios seem to be relatively similar to each other.
Creation was the work of a pantheon of Primordials, and got overstrained first by the emergence of the Neverborn, and then by the upsurge in deaths during the Great Contagion + Balorean Crusade.
Sanctuary is the work of an E4 Infernal.
Its tolerances, its capacity is less. You arent pulling an E8 lesser elemental dragon out of Molly's internals, like you can in Creation or Autochtonia.
Sanctuary is not a"work" of anyone - it's a world-body of a nascent (still dreaming) trans-primordial entitity that, when fully mature in an acasual way, and awake, will eclipse Primordials in all their glory.
She doesnt. Not anymore.
We broke it when we used Sapphire Circle Exorcism on her and Dresden, and confirmed that after putting her in a new body.
We built her new body from scratch; we would have noticed an ongoing arcane link that significant when we put her in it.
Are you for real here? Exorcism doesn't work like this. There's nothing in its function about breaking any arcane links except those of possession. It expels a spirit from an object it possesses. That's what it does. Lash / Tiffany is still a creation (a daughter? Beta fork? a pale imitation? Whatever you prefer) of Lasciel. Lasciel has all the links to Tiffany. We did nothing about it.
Or are you going to say that using Exorcism on Dresden also removed the mark of He-Who-Walks-Behind from Dresden's soul? Dresden, who, I remind you, we also have let into Sanctuary on multiple occasions.
Or that it erased Dresden's debts to Mab which she can use to track him? Or his connection to Leanansidhe? You can't have it both ways, by the way. Either all those were erased, or none were.
And while this is speculation....How do you suppose Lucifer knows if they are in Sanctuary in the first place?
He isnt the White God, he isnt omniscient.
Simplest explanation is that he has intellectus about what is going on with the coins, and will be able to trace them up to the point of Molly disappearing into Sanctuary.
We've received explicit warning about Coins.
We are under notice that it is possible for potential fuckery to go on.
He said, but whether thats actually true is unclear.
Im working off what the QM said up-page that we can get him to stop. We just need to convince him, and thats a social roll.
Once he's not dead or killing himself any longer, we can explore other options
It's possible for fuckery to occur, but we're talking about Celestine tier entities. We can convince him to not finish dying here and now, but he himself said he's already dead and hasn't been allowed to finish dying yet. That strongly implies that he's still pretty much dead at best.
FCF is Molly's Jotun. It's literally her soul and always has been.
This has been throughly discussed throughout the quest, I don't know why you'd want to retroactively minimize it now instead of arguing the point when it came up initially if you didn't agree.
Creation's Wheel broke under the weight of a bunch of Primordials becoming Neverborn.
We are not Creation. Sanctuary is not Creation, which was custom-built by a bunch of Primordials working together.
I rather doubt we are rated for anything like the same stresses, and I think its an unnecessary risk to test this.
He's not a primordial. Molly's killed and eaten gods before, and in the scope of her domain she is the laws of nature.
Why is it that the plain text of a werwolf gift is enough to heal centuries of vampiric exploitation in your book but Molly's world soul can't handle a warmed over corpse?
@BronzeTongue Can you be more explicit in your vote to bring him to Sanctuary as opposed to trying some other method? If your plan wins I don't want to have an extra vote about whether or not to bring him over there and you've said earlier that is your intent.
@BronzeTongue Can you be more explicit in your vote to bring him to Sanctuary as opposed to trying some other method? If your plan wins I don't want to have an extra vote about whether or not to bring him over there and you've said earlier that is your intent.
I guess? It seemed pretty clear to me since the stunt directly makes mention of the wheel but there's no harm in being specific.
[X] Try to keep the dying god from completely feeding itself to vampires
-[X] Excellency, FPoR, WHWH, BSM, Shintai modifier
-[X] Offer to take him to sanctuary to be reborn through the wheel.
-[X] Have Sophia use break the bonds.
-[X] [Stunt]: Drawing herself up, the sky around their stretch of forest changed. An iron wind blocking out the wider world as a false dawn of lightning glimmered in the distance.
—[X] "Do you truly wish for this death to be the end? The slayers of your kin live in the ruins of your home, wearing your faces as masks and dealing falsely with your followers. Even now they lie, cheat, and steal with the aim of snuffing out the wisdom in mortal eyes" Molly gestured to the wizards watching them speak.
—[X] "Worse still; they conspire with the enemy of all, foolishly thinking they can manipulate the Outside to their advantage." As she continues Molly's voice takes on gripping energy, the hush of an oncoming storm. "In my domain death is but the start of a new life. I cannot promise success, but I can offer a chance"
—[X] "A new age nears, will you join us in it?"
Some slaves allegedly had rights. Many did not.
To my recollection, Winter's recruits have never been referred to as slaves, nor was the relationship between the Miksani and Winter ever characterized as slavery.
And from an OOC perspective, slavery would represent an obvious vulnerability in Winter's ability to do its job, one that the Outsiders would have promptly exploited and continued to exploit.
You dont predicate the defense of reality on soldiers who have no reason to be loyal.
=====
1) Some did; I dont know if that was ever true about most systems of slavery.
The largest system of slavery, and the one I am most familiar with, did not.
2) I dont agree.
=====
We do know.
Butcher has stated what functions the gods of the Dresdenverse served, and nowhere did he say that the gods of Latin America were any different from their counterparts in Europe.
And gods dont draw power from sacrifice in the Dresdenverse as far as I know.
No? Serfdom is a very different state of affairs:
Serfdom was the status of many peasants under feudalism, specifically relating to manorialism, and similar systems. It was a condition of debt bondage and indentured servitude with similarities to and differences from slavery. It developed during late antiquity and the Early Middle Ages in Europe and lasted in some countries until the mid-19th century.[1]
Unlike slaves, serfs could not be bought, sold, or traded individually, though they could, depending on the area, be sold together with land. Actual slaves, such as the kholops in Russia, could, by contrast, be traded like regular slaves, could be abused with no rights over their own bodies, could not leave the land they were bound to, and could marry only with their lord's permission.[citation needed]
Serfs who occupied a plot of land were required to work for the lord of the manor who owned that land. In return, they were entitled to protection, justice, and the right to cultivate certain fields within the manor to maintain their own subsistence. Serfs were often required not only to work on the lord's fields, but also in his mines and forests and to labour to maintain roads. The manor formed the basic unit of feudal society, and the lord of the manor and the villeins, and to a certain extent the serfs, were bound legally: by taxation in the case of the former, and economically and socially in the latter.
[SNIP] Initiation
A freeman became a serf usually through force or necessity. Sometimes the greater physical and legal force of a local magnate intimidated freeholders or allodial owners into dependency. Often a few years of crop failure, a war, or brigandage might leave a person unable to make his own way. In such a case, he could strike a bargain with a lord of a manor. In exchange for gaining protection, his service was required: in labour, produce, or cash, or a combination of all. These bargains became formalised in a ceremony known as "bondage", in which a serf placed his head in the lord's hands, akin to the ceremony of homage where a vassal placed his hands between those of his overlord. These oaths bound the lord and his new serf in a feudal contract and defined the terms of their agreement.[17] Often these bargains were severe.[clarification needed]
A 7th-century Anglo Saxon "Oath of Fealty" states:
By the Lord before whom this sanctuary is holy, I will to N. be true and faithful, and love all which he loves and shun all which he shuns, according to the laws of God and the order of the world. Nor will I ever with will or action, through word or deed, do anything which is unpleasing to him, on condition that he will hold to me as I shall deserve it, and that he will perform everything as it was in our agreement when I submitted myself to him and chose his will.
To become a serf was a commitment that encompassed all aspects of the serf's life. The children born to serfs inherited their status, and were considered born into serfdom. By taking on the duties of serfdom, people bound themselves and their progeny.
All societies impose requirements on their members of some form of contribution to the common good, both for day to day functioning, and in the face of existential threat.
I find this argument entirely too similar to the proposition that taxation is theft.
Probably beyond the scope of the quest though.
COMMENTARY
I am very confused about what is happening right now. I'll talk about some of the implications later, but right now?
Some Reds appear to be transforming to pure spirits(fractal), some to animals(bats), some to humans.
Im not sure if thats in part, or if they are fissioning.
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Is this entity dead? Or just dying?
CAN it be healed? Does it WANT to be?
Do remember that we have Sophia right here, and Sophia has Howl of Healing; if it can be healed or stabilized, we can likely do it. Thats an OOC determination on your part; Molly can burn a Crown question using the scene as a focus to determine this IC.
What can we see?
We still have All Things Betray (-3DC)active to stack with BSM(-1DC) and Shintai(-1DC) buffs to our Perception rolls, and we can probably burn Essence on an Occult Excellency if its necessary.
I'm gonna note while their role was to guide to humanity I'm sure they did that in varying ways. Also like I said earlier as far as we know most of the horrible shit attributed to them could of been the red court since the red court is like 5000 years old and thats older than the actual real life religion or at least most of it as far as we know. So the sacrificial shit could of been the result of red court and the actual gods are very different. Though I doubt that since all the info dp has to base them on is based on more modern inca surviving info. But I doubt their exact to myths for example colonists freed what they thought were human soul slaves but were actually evil spirits and the church or whatever regrets that now that they know.
Messing with Mana is pretty clearly the domain of Mana Manipulation, not Alchemy.
Storing Mana in a potion or similar object is a level 2 ritual of MM.
But then I'm against any permanent buffs without spending the full XP anyway, so whatever.
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Aug 31, 2024 at 2:18 AM, finished with 65 posts and 14 votes.
[X] Offer resurrection, free of whatever ails it, on the condition it agrees to an alliance against Red Court, precise terms to be negotiated once it's in good health again
-[X] Offer to lesser vampires feeding on it the chance to finish, on the condition they swear allegiance to you
-[X] Empathy excellency to convince the god
-[X] Break the Bonds of the god to free it from being controlled
-[X] If they agree, take the lot of them into the Sanctuary, ideally to palace full of thaumic sensors
-[X] stunt: "Great one!" - You speak, your voice amplified by the winds of deepest wastes, breath heated by the fires of the ring of life, your speech a glimpse into the world of your soul: "Know this, in your last moments under this sun: The Wheel Turns, and the Sixth Dawn is Coming! Join hands with me against those who killed you and yours, and with the same surety as the rising of sun, I say to you - you will also rise, free of that which ails you!"
[X] Try to keep the dying god from completely feeding itself to vampires
-[X] Excellency, FPoR, WHWH, BSM, Shintai modifier
-[X] Offer to take him to sanctuary to be reborn through the wheel.
-[X] Have Sophia use break the bonds.
-[X] [Stunt]: Drawing herself up, the sky around their stretch of forest changed. An iron wind blocking out the wider world as a false dawn of lightning glimmered in the distance.
—[X] "Do you truly wish for this death to be the end? The slayers of your kin live in the ruins of your home, wearing your faces as masks and dealing falsely with your followers. Even now they lie, cheat, and steal with the aim of snuffing out the wisdom in mortal eyes" Molly gestured to the wizards watching them speak.
—[X] "Worse still; they conspire with the enemy of all, foolishly thinking they can manipulate the Outside to their advantage." As she continues Molly's voice takes on gripping energy, the hush of an oncoming storm. "In my domain death is but the start of a new life. I cannot promise success, but I can offer a chance"
—[X] "A new age nears, will you join us in it?"
[X] Offer resurrection, free of whatever ails it, on the condition it agrees to an alliance against Red Court, precise terms to be negotiated once it's in good health again
-[X] Offer to lesser vampires feeding on it the chance to finish, on the condition they swear allegiance to you
-[X] Empathy excellency to convince the god
-[X] If they agree, take the lot of them into the Sanctuary, ideally to palace full of thaumic sensors
-[X] stunt: "Great one!" - You speak, your voice amplified by the winds of deepest wastes, breath heated by the fires of the ring of life, your speech a glimpse into the world of your soul: "Know this, in your last moments under this sun: The Wheel Turns, and the Sixth Dawn is Coming! Join hands with me against those who killed you and yours, and with the same surety as the rising of sun, I say to you - you will also rise, free of that which ails you!"
[X]Plan Suicide Line
-[X] Try to keep the dying god from completely feeding itself to vampires
--[X] Empathy/Etiquette Excellency: 1m
--[X] Active Effects: Without Honor + Boiling Sea Mastery + Shintai modifier
--[X] Sophia: Use Break the Bonds + Howl of Healing: 2WP.
--[X] [STUNT]: Drawing herself up, the sky around their stretch of forest changed. An iron wind blocking out the wider world as a false dawn of lightning glimmered in the distance.
—[X] "Do you truly wish for this death to be the end? The slayers of your kin live in the ruins of your home, wearing your faces as masks and dealing falsely with your followers. Even now they lie, cheat, and steal with the aim of snuffing out the wisdom in mortal eyes" Molly gestured to the wizards watching them speak.
—[X] "Worse still; they conspire with the enemy of all, foolishly thinking they can manipulate the Outside to their advantage." As she continues Molly's voice takes on gripping energy, the hush of an oncoming storm. "In my domain death is but the start of a new life. I cannot promise success, but I can offer a chance"
—[X] "A new age nears, will you join us in it?"
so @Yog shouldn't you change your plan on account that we cannot take nearly all the vampires? Also whats your plan for those who refuse initiate combat?
Why is it that the plain text of a werwolf gift is enough to heal centuries of vampiric exploitation in your book but Molly's world soul can't handle a warmed over corpse?
To add to that - in-story, the clone gifts, Molly's exalted charms, and the Wheel are expressions of the same power, with the Wheel being arguably the least removed from the source. If we can heal him without resorting to artifice or magic that invokes outside powers, then the Wheel should be able to heal him, and, reversely, if the Wheel can't heal him, there's no way our clones will be able to do so.
so @Yog shouldn't you change your plan on account that we cannot take nearly all the vampires? Also whats your plan for those who refuse initiate combat?
That's a good question, and I'll admit that I don't have a good answer. My guess would be:
1) If less than twenty agree to bend the knee, take only those, kill the rest (we are in shintai with all the buffs, we should be able to dispose of lesser vampires with no issue)
2) If more than twenty agree to bend the knee... Take those that we can and bid the rest to wait?
As I said, not a good answer. For combat - these are lesser vampires, afflicted with some manner of transformation right now. We are in shintai with all the buffs. Realistically, I expect us to just be able to mass kill them at this point.
@BronzeTongue - if not "being eaten by vampires" how do you plan to make the god die in sanctuary? Because as I understand it, it's not just going to immediately keel over without being eaten.
