Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The Lord does not have a body, he is... a parasite's parasite. Can't say more without spoilers.

New theory; those aren't his bodies strictly speaking, they're more like his fetters.

It strikes me as bullshit that this guy could spread his spirit out but be wholly immune to losing parts of it as the Greater Akuma did, and be inhabiting a body but less vulnerable to being reached through it than Nemesis.

Unless, of course, he's not actually inside them in the traditional sense at all.

There's probably more to it than this, but what if he's something like an ungodly powerful wraith that managed to figure out how to dynamically manipulate their fetters?

Take a weak vamp, potentially of his own lineage for ease of thaumaturgy, and give them the Renfield treatment. Artificially tie the wraith to them as a fetter and target the mostly vacant body with a mind riding power. The ghost doesn't strictly have a body to monitor so they can focus entirely on riding the unresisting vessel they lobotomized.

If the ghost managed to work their possession effect as something using dream magic they might even be able to dissolve into a fetter while riding it. Which for the purposes of MiM wouldn't count as occupying it like a regular soul so much as happening to be next to it spiritually speaking.
 
To put it mildly I will hesitate greatly on condemning a whole culture and people out of hand. Inca believed in reincarnation, from what I was able to find, and in this universe likely were at least somewhat right. Human sacrifice is not their unique practice, and, hell, it might even have worked. Regardless of anything else, just as in the case of Iku-Tsuro, right now the god is a victim and deserves compassion.
As a trained anthropologist (if not a practicing one), I freely condemn any culture that practices human sacrifice.

To be fair, I wouldn't have been a very good anthropologist, since I never embraced the whole "cultural relativity" thing. :whistle:
 
Mab/Winter accepts tribute in children who get trained to be soldiers.

The Norse to my knowledge did not practice child sacrifice, nor was human sacrifice a routine part of their religion;
I think some Norse did sacrifice enemy prisoners, but there isnt firm evidence of the sacrifice of members of their own society as part of religious ritual.
I'm not even talking about the tribute situation I'm just talking about the mythological situation of fairies just do take children in the night sometimes that is just a thing they do and everything we see about Dresden Files it seems to suggest nothing about that has changed in fact everything we see in Dresden files seems to suggest that it's worse now than it was even in the past simply because there are more children just to take if they get lost at night somewhere because no one's carrying around the iron to Ward away fairies while they're out at night.

Again the lord of the hang the ill-fated one believe it or not not really opposed to Human Sacrifice at all to the point where there's significant records of Vikings performing sacrifices and At Trelleborg a sacrificial site was found from the time before the Viking fortress was erected in 980-81. In five c. 3 metre-deep wells human and animal skeletons were found, together with jewellery and tools. Of the total of five human sacrifices, four were young children aged between 4 and 7. Source National museum of Denmark.
 
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As to the subject of the god in question - right now the most relevant fact is that he is someone who has been horrifically abused for at least the last thousand years, likely several thousand years.In a similar, albeit much more mild situation (Iku-Tsuro being held captive by fomori and milked for gossamer) we acted to the benefit of the prisoner. As far as I can say, the moral solution is "get the god free, heal them, then lay down the ground rules in regards to how to interact with mortals"
As a trained anthropologist (if not a practicing one), I freely condemn any culture that practices human sacrifice.

To be fair, I wouldn't have been a very good anthropologist, since I never embraced the whole "cultural relativity" thing.
Fair, but important point of order - this is the world where, at the time human sacrifice was practiced, practical evidence of reincarnation would have existed, as well as the gods who asked for said sacrifices or benefited from them. Basically, it's quite possible that human sacrifices worked in setting.
Disputed. The only written records are hearsay by Christian clerics decades or centuries later.

The actual dead bodies are better evidence, but they arent at religious sites, and all it says is that human sacrifice(probably) occurred, not who it was performed to.
We have much stronger archeological evidence in South America
See other links I have provided.
 
Anyway...

[X] Make it look like you are breaking the rules in order to goad the rhampires into releasing their prisoner god
-[X] Subterfuge excellency
-[X] Stunt: Your anima flares around you, as you make passages with your hands, to all the world appearing to have abandoned subtlety and assisting yourself with magic.
 
@uju32 I will admit I don't really get the need to try and soften the image of mab the queen of Air darkness and Odin killer of Yimr even just from a mythological standpoint he's like a Mega murderer just like all the time and for a lot of different beings he's literally drowned entire Realms in Blood and killed all of their occupants except for two before. All of the old gods and their contemporaries are so why even make pretend that they weren't.

People and beings are capable of changing with the times even if at their core they're still the same beings that's part of the problem that most of the people that read Dresden Files have with Mab she was an evil fairy leading Romeo to his death when Shakespeare wrote about her and she still is a evil fairy all of the Winter Court is still exactly the same not at all changing with the times Still Loving eating people Still Loving kidnapping children still just being awful Odin despite having a lot of reasons not to change apparently managed to get with the times but not Mab.

It'd be like reading Percy Jackson but all of the Gods act exactly like they do in Myth as in go around raping people killing people just generally being awful rather than having changed with the eras even if they are still generally detached and callous. Then rooting for the gods to win their War any of them.

There is literally no need to pretend either of them are good people or were good people at any point. They're useful now and they'll be useful later so we'll tolerate them for as long as we need to. Do you think anyone would put up with Mab just herself the way that she acts both the implacable and Ill diplomatic manner that she puts up if they had any other option that wasn't another kind of fairy just in the opposite direction well diplomatic but extremely prone to emotion. Just like the skinwalker is useful just like the queen is useful just like Odin is useful this God can be useful in this situation.
 
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The ghost thing is relevant because we can use it to flesh out our attempt to paint him as a cheater to that god.

If those things aren't his bodies so much as his real estate then technically he's not actually presenting himself for the duel. Sure losing all his fetters would kill him and it's possible that disrupting his manifested body with mordite wouldn't, but this isn't so much about outcomes as it is about the obvious form of things to present to a dead god.

A ghost mind riding a puppet would be dueling us in much the same way Ash fights Pokémon battles with Pikachu.

If he resides in those bodies more conventionally then we have a weaker case, but if he's not then technically this asshole hasn't even gotten into the ring for the duel he challenged us to.

The vamp could make the claim that he had the opportunity to appoint a champion, but if they're supposed to be separate entities now then by piloting one he's actively cheating and in any case we didn't agree to a best of five with him. It's actually worse than claiming he undercut the duel from the beginning because it admits to cheating, losing, and violating the terms he swore to in favor of continuing to attack us.

Even if this isn't true it sounds good and might move the god to action.
 
[X] Speak openly to the dead god, if that is their play, accuse the Red Court of breaking the rules with guile and subtlety
-[X] Etiquette excellency
—[X] "what hold do these oath breakers and betrayers posses upon your mind 'Oh Mallko of Law? What chain of lies and blood have they bound you in that you would bend and ear to hear the pleas of the dark brood of dread Kukulan, those that butchered your family in the night like those most cowardly of foes?"
 
[X] Make it look like you are breaking the rules in order to goad the rhampires into releasing their prisoner god
-[X] Subterfuge excellency
-[X] Stunt: Your anima flares around you, as you make passages with your hands, to all the world appearing to have abandoned subtlety and assisting yourself with magic.

@Yog very pog
 
And this is different from sacrifice how? If anything, it's "human sacrifice with extra torture (training) steps". Because you don't get to retire. You die. Horrifically, at the hands of outsiders. End of story.
This is not true.
Soldiers live and fight. Many die. We know fuckall about what happens to Winter's tributes after they are recruited; the fact that they dont go back to their tribes is not the same thing as never retiring or being a sacrifice.

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I hasten to disappoint you [1,2]. Archeological evidence of child sacrifice by vikings exists.
Thanks.
Thats stronger evidence, but not conclusive as to goals.


Compare this to reports of Inca religion, where children are selected from the community, fattened for several months/years, and then sacrificed. With records being substantiated by the discovery of well-preserved bodies where the cause of death could be substantiated forensically
en.wikipedia.org

Capacocha - Wikipedia



I'm not even talking about the tribute situation I'm just talking about the mythological situation of fairies just do take children in the night sometimes that is just a thing they do and everything we see about Dresden Files it seems to suggest nothing about that has changed in fact everything we see in Dresden files seems to suggest that it's worse now than it was even in the past simply because there are more children just to take if they get lost at night somewhere because no one's caring around the iron to Ward away fairies while they're out at night.

Again the lord of the hang the ill-fated one believe it or not not really opposed to Human Sacrifice at all to the point where there's significant records of Vikings performing sacrifices and At Trelleborg a sacrificial site was found from the time before the Viking fortress was erected in 980-81. In five c. 3 metre-deep wells human and animal skeletons were found, together with jewellery and tools. Of the total of five human sacrifices, four were young children aged between 4 and 7. Source National museum of Denmark.
Not in the Dresden Files as written. Fae cant just take children without some sort of justification/agreement.
As far as I know, that hasnt changed.
Even changelings in the Dresdenverse appear to be primarily raised by their human parent.

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There is allegedly pretty good historical evidence of the sacrifice of enemy prisoners in Norse culture, and also slaves on the death of important people to accompany them to the underworld.
Children less so.

I hate to be defending the Norse here, but there isnt sufficient evidence to conclusively tie specifically child sacrifice as a part of their religious practice.
Trelleborg is strong evidence of child sacrifice, but not really conclusive of it being a religious thing.


@uju32 I will admit I don't really get the need to try and soften the image of mab the queen of Air darkness and Odin killer of Yimr even just from a mythological standpoint he's like a Mega murderer just like all the time and for a lot of different beings he's literally drowned entire Realms in Blood and killed all of their occupants except for two before. All of the old gods and their contemporaries are so why even make pretend that they weren't. People and beings are capable of changing with the times even if at their core they're still the same beings that's part of the problem that most of the people that read Dresden Files have with Mab she was an evil fairy leading Romeo to his death when Shakespeare wrote about her and she still is a evil fairy all of the Winter Court is still exactly the same not at all changing with the times Still Loving eating people Still Loving kidnapping children still just being awful Odin despite having a lot of reasons not to change apparently managed to get with the times but not Mab.

It'd be like reading Percy Jackson but all of the Gods act exactly like they do in Myth as in go around raping people killing people just generally being awful rather than having changed with the eras even if they are still generally detached and callous. Then rooting for the gods to win their War any of them.

There is literally no need to pretend either of them are good people or were good people at any point. They're useful now and they'll be useful later so we'll tolerate them for as long as we need to. Do you think anyone would put up with map just herself the way that she acts both the implacable and Ill diplomatic manner that she puts up if they had any other option that wasn't another kind of fairy just in the opposite direction well diplomatic but extremely prone to emotion. Just like the skinwalker is useful just like the queen is useful just like Odin is useful this God can be useful in this situation.
Im being lore accurate as per Butcher's stated intent and portrayal of the Fae in the Dresdenverse.
The fae who eat people still exist; if a spider fae or a bridge troll catches you in its territory, it will treat you like a prey animal. Wyldfae goblins will happily torture you to death.


Mab isnt supposed to be evil in the Dresdenverse, and the more the protagonist gets to associate with her, the more he begins to see through the public image to the person underneath.
A little alien, sure. Ruthless, vindictive, hell yes. Evil, no.
 
Anyway...

[X] Make it look like you are breaking the rules in order to goad the rhampires into releasing their prisoner god
-[X] Subterfuge excellency
-[X] Stunt: Your anima flares around you, as you make passages with your hands, to all the world appearing to have abandoned subtlety and assisting yourself with magic.
If we convince the god we cheated too then it would defeat the point of spending essence on this in the first place. Might be better to try a more directly accusatory approach.
 
If we convince the god we cheated too then it would defeat the point of spending essence on this in the first place. Might be better to try a more directly accusatory approach.
I don't like arguing this ( see any arguments including me about any beings intellectus or information gathering capabilities with a variety of people) but it makes enough sense that I'm willing to put it out there, the god of law might be able to tell when someone is actually breaking a rule in front of him even through an Excellency because it might be a magical ability he possesses. Unless we had something that allowed us to just completely circumvent his portfolio the subterfuge Excellency is to fool the Reds into releasing the God not to fool the deity.
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Full Power
-[X] Write-In: Invoke Shintai: 2m, 2wp
-[X] Activate Intimidation Excellency again if necessary
-[X]STUNT: "Your delusions of adequacy" you declare, burning additional Essence to release parts of your kingdom into reality "have stopped. Being. Funny." Between moments, the ground freezes over across two miles of jungle, with the crack of exploding branches following an abrupt temperature drop below zero, even as an arctic wind dashes saltwater spray across the clearing. You wipe your face with a mailed fist, even as your opponents pupils dilate to the size of marbles."Bored now. Time to end."


RATIONALE
Invoking shintai activates additional buffs.

Seawater doesnt freeze until -2 degrees Celsius. Brine can remain liquid until -21 degrees Celsius.
So invoking elements of a Sanctuary shoreline in winter should allow Molly to stack things further in her direction, by both making her wet, and making her(and everyone) cold.

Willpower 9 + Stunt 2 + Without Honor 2 = 13 dice
King and Kingdom: Signature 1 + Boiling Sea Mastery 1 = -2DC
So we begin to roll 13 dice at DC4.

Also adds additional intimidation factor
 
[x] Keep going as you have been

Let's just kill as many as we can then just use our shaping defense if we lose. At that point we can do higher cost options.
 
[x] Keep going as you have been

Let's just kill as many as we can then just use our shaping defense if we lose. At that point we can do higher cost options.
Time.
The more time we spend with this dude, the more time they have to bring in reinforcements or demon summons or nerve gas or whatever for the inevitable backstab. Ergo we are incentivized to end this as quickly as possible.

Plus, we got the Peabody Incident to deal with.
The less time we spend here, the more time we have to spend dealing with him and his conspirators.
 
Time.
The more time we spend with this dude, the more time they have to bring in reinforcements or demon summons or nerve gas or whatever for the inevitable backstab. Ergo we are incentivized to end this as quickly as possible.

Plus, we got the Peabody Incident to deal with.
The less time we spend here, the more time we have to spend dealing with him and his conspirators.
You are talking about seconds. We are certainly going to need our essence and Shinkai later. Every essence is 15 minutes.
 
I don't like arguing this ( see any arguments including me about any beings intellectus or information gathering capabilities with a variety of people) but it makes enough sense that I'm willing to put it out there, the god of law might be able to tell when someone is actually breaking a rule in front of him even through an Excellency because it might be a magical ability he possesses. Unless we had something that allowed us to just completely circumvent his portfolio the subterfuge Excellency is to fool the Reds into releasing the God not to fool the deity.
We don't know about his state of mind or senses. At the very least I'm skeptical of any sort of law intellectus because the reds are obvious cheats and the guy isn't reacting.

I'm reasonably confident that the fetters thing is how the is guy's trick works which is pretty blatant, and even if it isn't he also set every term of this duel while citing rules that would nominally have given us the right to pick the form of conflict.

Just on a general level the reds are basically hypoallergenic Skaven, anyone with treachery senses would be struck blind from looking in their direction.

Edit:

VOTE
[X]Plan Full Power
-[X] Write-In: Invoke Shintai: 2m, 2wp
-[X] Activate Intimidation Excellency again if necessary
-[X]STUNT: "Your delusions of adequacy" you declare, burning additional Essence to release parts of your kingdom into reality "have stopped. Being. Funny." Between moments, the ground freezes over across two miles of jungle, with the crack of exploding branches following an abrupt temperature drop below zero, even as an arctic wind dashes saltwater spray across the clearing. You wipe your face with a mailed fist, even as your opponents pupils dilate to the size of marbles."Bored now. Time to end."


RATIONALE
Invoking shintai activates additional buffs.

Seawater doesnt freeze until -2 degrees Celsius. Brine can remain liquid until -21 degrees Celsius.
So invoking elements of a Sanctuary shoreline in winter should allow Molly to stack things further in her direction, by both making her wet, and making her(and everyone) cold.

Willpower 9 + Stunt 2 + Without Honor 2 = 13 dice
King and Kingdom: Signature 1 + Boiling Sea Mastery 1 = -2DC
So we begin to roll 13 dice at DC4.

Also adds additional intimidation factor
We have double Shintai now, which means we also get to pick a second signature to apply in regular shintai mode as well. If we turn it on now we'll probably want to pick that as well.
 
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For a while more, seconds probably, though it feels like longer by far you struggle against the Lord of outer night back and forth. Maybe it's trying to have a go at your mind, but if so it's going nowhere fast. OK, maybe it is advancing, but very, very slowly, until the answer comes back in an approximation of Morgan's voice, you can tell it's not him because there's no sense the speaker wants to shake you for asking questions in the middle of a duel: "Mallko, Inca god of Law, bane of oathbreakers, if they just let him loose he'll go after whoever looks most like an oathbreaker"
We don't know about his state of mind or senses. At the very least I'm skeptical of any sort of law intellectus because the reds are obvious cheats and the guy isn't reacting.

I'm reasonably confident that the fetters thing is how the is guy's trick works which is pretty blatant, and even if it isn't he also set every term of this duel while citing rules that would nominally have given us the right to pick the form of conflict.

Just on a general level the reds are basically hypoallergenic Skaven, anyone with treachery senses would be struck blind from looking in their direction.

Edit:


We have double Shintai now, which means we also get to pick a second signature to apply in regular shintai mode as well. If we turn it on now we'll probably want to pick that as well.
Never mind reading comprehension is key thank you for getting me to read it again.

[X] Keep going as you have been
-[X] Intimidation Excellency
--[X] "Foul parasite spawn of Kukulan, so lacking in spine that you must cheat in a duel of Wills. I will kill every body you have here and if you are not dead before this day is done I will find you and I will kill you. The poor spawn that you have brought here with you they will all die for having followed you here."
 
[X] Speak openly to the dead god, if that is their play, accuse the Red Court of breaking the rules with guile and subtlety
-[X] Etiquette excellency
—[X] "what hold do these oath breakers and betrayers posses upon your mind 'Oh Mallko of Law? What chain of lies and blood have they bound you in that you would bend and ear to hear the pleas of the dark brood of dread Kukulan, those that butchered your family in the night like those most cowardly of foes?"


the god of law might be able to tell when someone is actually breaking a rule in front of him even through an Excellency because it might be a magical ability he possesses.

Might being the operative word. We don't actually know how this god detects his sinners. He might have put all his "points" into visual divination instead of conceptual one. And let's not forget that the Red Court has had access to him and might have messed with those processes further.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy.
This is where I remind you that Iku-Turso was also an enemy of the Red Court who they devoted resources to keep imprisoned in the middle of a war.

I don't think the comparison holds up. First, Iku-Turso was a god/titan of chaos and inimical to human civilization, a god of law is the opposite. You could make an argument that he stands for an evil order based on the child sacrifice part, but, in context, the scale of Incan human sacrifice was much smaller than the Mesoamerican one, especially Aztecs.

There's also conceptual differences that are important when it comes to determining the god's nature. Namely the Incan sacrifices were done on human initiative, as a way to bribe the gods into forgetting human transgression by sending them servants through sacrifice. The Incans could have, by the rules of their own religion, just not done them and just pay the price for their sins themselves. Or just not sin then. It was not a "sacrifice to us or the sun won't rise and rain won't come" kinda unavoidable existential blackmail.

My point is, that it's very unlikely to be the sort of god, who's first thought upon waking up is "where are my child sacrifices?" and who couldn't possibly be talked out of no longer supporting/tolerating such things by someone who saved them from the Red Court.
 
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No, our anti shaping and passive defense plus excellence make us basically unbeatable in combat.

Like i look at stats from the strongest things in wod, like the the scariest things that aren't plot devices and the only thing we don't dumpster is space ships and maybe the archmages but thats only if they counterspell us.
Antediluvians have global plot powers like mind control the human race. Given their literally called plot devices just wanted to note you didn't list them.
 
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The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy.
This is where I remind you that Iku-Turso was also an enemy of the Red Court who they devoted resources to keep imprisoned in the middle of a war.

Just because a person has bad guys as his enemies doesnt make him good, or a prospective ally.

This guy, Malko, may have been a god of law, but he was part of the Inca Pantheon.
The Inca did human sacrifice to their gods.
Specifically children.
=====

So basically a Malkavian.
Fair enough.


====
Y'know what, Im invoking shintai.
The most valuable resource right now is time, and this dude is slowing us down.
Lemme see if I can write an appropriate stunt.
In fairness red court has existed for like 5 thousand years that's far longer than the real life religion. As far as we know all the bad shit attributed to them could easily just be the red court. Then again who knows how long they've been imprisoned or what bad shit they did before then.
 
Mab isnt supposed to be evil in the Dresdenverse, and the more the protagonist gets to associate with her, the more he begins to see through the public image to the person underneath.
A little alien, sure. Ruthless, vindictive, hell yes. Evil, no.
Every description of Mab from Dresden even when he's literally in congress with her is that she's not dissimilar to a tornado or other natural disaster but there's the thing when you're a natural disaster that thinks and you choose to bulldoze through a city you're fucking evil. I've never seen anything in Dresden Files that puts forward evidence that she isn't evil just that she's necessary. Being necessary does not mean you are good. It's functionally the same position all of the old gods we're in but they are no longer necessary while she is now necessary they will come a time when she is no longer necessary and gets relegated to the same fate which is to say because she refuses to change with the times she'll stay in the Never Never And if she's ever out of it someone with a grudge will attempt to kill her because when she's no longer necessary the ability to avoid death will allude her.
 
Every description of Mab from Dresden even when he's literally in congress with her is that she's not dissimilar to a tornado or other natural disaster but there's the thing when you're a natural disaster that thinks and you choose to bulldoze through a city you're fucking evil. I've never seen anything in Dresden Files that puts forward evidence that she isn't evil just that she's necessary. Being necessary does not mean you are good. It's functionally the same position all of the old gods we're in but they are no longer necessary while she is now necessary they will come a time when she is no longer necessary and gets relegated to the same fate which is to say because she refuses to change with the times she'll stay in the Never Never And if she's ever out of it someone with a grudge will attempt to kill her because when she's no longer necessary the ability to avoid death will allude her.
Eh I always thought of evil as active malice you can debate that but if you don't actively care about what your doing to others your horrible sure but I don't think evil is the right word.
 
Eh I always thought of evil as active malice you can debate that but if you don't actively care about what your doing to others your horrible sure but I don't think evil is the right word.
The Acts of manipulation that we see on screen by themselves would be enough to qualify her as evil the Canon torture Garden that we see would be enough to qualify her as evil the generally sadistic demeanor and just overall kind of vicious Behavior while not enough to categorize her as evil is enough to categorize her as malicious a lot of the time. But there comes a point where callousness also crosses over into evil even if it isn't active like all of those other things and she's plenty callous as well.
 
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