Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Yeah, there's a part of me that agrees with that, but it also feels - and maybe this is just a mis-estimation on my part - like there's some degree of inevitability to the knowledge getting out at some point.
Molly has an entire Hellworld of resources to draw from for means of getting information magic or otherwise. People are aware of this as we've told several including organizations like the White Council and LoC. It actually is viable to keep the Crown in specific a secret.

Besides even if it wasn't it's worth far more than three favors. Remember Odin isn't Fae, he actually can turn down a specific favor if it's deemed problematic enough which makes them worth less than a Fae favor.
 
Being able to ask 'What secret does X least want known' alone is gonna make everyone paranoid like heck around Molly, if they knew she could do that. Heck, that's why Uriel didn't want to hang out with Molly until Michael made her promise not to peek.
 
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@DragonParadox Can you clear up how SSC is supposed to work? Can we use it without line of sight on Odin right now? If we use it on Odin is he going to get assaulted by shadows?
 
Fair enough on the rest of your points - I even agree on some of them - but with this particular one: I certainly didn't think he would take a moral stance against us lying to him - he's Odin, after all, the famously sneaky bastard of Norse mythology (bar Loki, I guess) - but a pragmatic issue with it could be just as bad for our response to this whole situation if it leads to a refusal.
Even a full demonstration of the crown would come down to him trusting what we say about it is true. "I can't be spied upon and saw who was looking at me" has the same implicit trust requirement as "I can peek at anything I want, once per conceptual link".

He also can't prove us wrong by testing because Molly really does have a surprise negator and the implication is that we chose to take a deeper look. There's not an easy way to prove we're lying.

Odin is the exact sort of person we were being warned about when people told us we'd draw dangerous attention with the crown.

I don't think he'll flip on us here, but even a total refusal to help would be a better result than giving him a hint of the crown.
 
I don't think that's true you can affect every type of roll using SSC including economics politics and other non overtly physical rolls what you're describing is punching someone in the face and calling it a curse.

Edit: The charm specifically calls out blighting the efforts of the Target, rather than the target themselves.
I can't find the quote, but it produces a visible effect around the target, which is how the "detect all Nemesis" concept started.

[X] Plan: To bullshit a bullshitter
-[X] Try to feed him the same half-truth you did Carlos about being able to see when someone is spying on you and look back (Lie: Charisma+Subterfuge against ???)
--[X] Spill some water over your head. You'll need it.
---[X] When abyss dares gaze into me, I look back, and my sight is sharp, oh Father of Hosts. This one I recognize, for I have seen it before. it is Not-Man, Once-Man, Husk, by name Ashraaah, perversion of everything that is the Image of God.

I'll note that not a word of this is a lie. It's misdirection, yes, but not a lie.
 
Remember Odin isn't Fae, he actually can turn down a specific favor if it's deemed problematic enough which makes them worth less than a Fae favor.
Fair point, hadn't really considered it that way. Does rather undermine the value of any favour owed that isn't from the Fae, though - not that I'm saying you're wrong, just that that's something to consider going forward.

But yeah, in which case, I think I'll just abstain on this one. Lying isn't a course of action I'm confident enough in going well to vote for.
 
I don't understand everyone's aversion to just telling Odin it's a secret. There is no reason to lie or dissemble here. Be honest with the guy. He'll respect that a lot more than a lie or half-truth if he gets an inkling of any deception.
 
"Good news everyone. Molly has a tell. She's still an utterly convincing liar, but there is a surefire way to tell she's lying."

"Oh, do tell."

"Yeah, she dumps water on herself. Right now we are going with the assumption that it's some form of compulsion, but it's weird and a surefire way to tell she's lying."
 
[X] Stonewall him, you are not going to reveal your sources (Charisma+Etiquette vs ???)
-[X] "That's something I cannot share, no more than I would expect you to share the secrets of your power."
 
There is no favor worth telling Odin of all people about the crown. I'm personally not even willing to entertain the idea of an offer on the chance that he takes it. Hell, even if he doesn't the framing you're using gives information away for free.

Odin lies, manipulates, and withholds information all the time. He's not going to take a moral stance against us for not giving the game away.
Very much this. Odin, even if his intentions are good, is still not our friend at all. Don't give him enough rope to hang us with.
I don't understand everyone's aversion to just telling Odin it's a secret. There is no reason to lie or dissemble here. Be honest with the guy. He'll respect that a lot more than a lie or half-truth if he gets an inkling of any deception.
Costs involved? As in - the less we tell, the more he has to take on trust, and probably the more he would want to extract from us.
 
Fair point, hadn't really considered it that way. Does rather undermine the value of any favour owed that isn't from the Fae, though - not that I'm saying you're wrong, just that that's something to consider going forward.

But yeah, in which case, I think I'll just abstain on this one. Lying isn't a course of action I'm confident enough in going well to vote for.
Not really. They just aren't absolute. Even the Fae can turn down a favor if it goes against prior agreements of a higher tier. If someone tries to redeem a favor with us and we deem it to be too costly we can also say no. Doesn't mean a favor from Molly is questionable of worth.

That's why it's in someone's best interest to ask for something they think the other person will actually comply with if they aren't bound by their nature to do so. It's all about the perceived value of a favor with someone who isn't magically bound by their word.
 
It is my understanding that she has access to all lores, just not as favored (house?) ones. On offense and defense, awakening 4 seems to be the next logical step.
1) She definitely doesnt have access to Lore of the Forge. And I suspect a few others will be off the table for balance reasons

2) <Lore> 4 costs the same as <Lore> 1 + 2 + Survival 2, AND it always costs Faith points to use.
So buying Lore 4 of anything is always a big deal.

I dont really see the argument for Awakening 4; it costs more than multiple lower-tier Lores, it uses an Attribute + Ability pair she's not good at (Intelligence 4 + Craft 0), it burns Faith points per use, and the power itself isnt really all that anyway (temporarily animating objects).

For that 15XP cost, we could buy Storms 1 + 2, or Winds 1 + 2, or Fundament 1 + 2, or any two of Wild 1 + Realms 1 + Spirit 1. It just doesnt look like a good buy.
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That's just telling him that there's definitely something to look for in how we look for things.
Better to lie, worst case is that he sees through it and that just leaves us in the best case of the other option.
No it is not.
This is Odin's canon portfolio:
Odin (/ˈoʊdɪn/;[1] from Old Norse: Óðinn) is a widely revered god in Germanic paganism. Norse mythology, the source of most surviving information about him, associates him with wisdom, healing, death, royalty, the gallows, knowledge, war, battle, victory, sorcery, poetry, frenzy, and the runic alphabet, and depicts him as the husband of the goddess Frigg.
Never lie to someone who has a good chance of telling you are lying either immediately or in the future.
That just destroys your credibility with them.

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Then you pull out Donnar's card... Given his reputation some of the Senior Council may not thank you for involving him, but that's OK since it means there will be a Senior Council to get upset.
Meh.
With the kind of enemy intrusion they have, they were never going to be able to keep it secret anyway. And its much better to have everyone knowing that the evil wizards dont speak for the Council, than to have them create chaos in the Council's name.
OOC: Maeve would have been annoying in her own way, Odin is inquisitive, that is part of his nature. One thing to just say 'I'm good at divination' quite another to claim to have cracked a conspiracy that has eluded the Council for decades,
He lives in the same universe where wizards get precognition, where Anduriel spies out of people's shadows, where Mab can scry a person across space and time, and the Mothers do this:
Cold Days said:
Mother Summer somehow managed to inject her voice with profound skepticism. "I'm sure he's overjoyed to owe loyalty to you," she said. "Why did you bring him here now, of all times?"
More teeth showed. "He summoned me, the precious thing."
Mother Summer dropped her herbs. She turned her head toward me, her eyes wide. "Oh," she said. "Oh, dear."
Mother Winter's rocker creaked, though it didn't really seem to move. "He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them, or wholly wrong in using them."
Mother Summer's bright green eyes narrowed. "Did he . . . ?"
"No," croaked Mother Winter. "Not that one. But he has seen the adversary, and learned one of its names."
Calculation and thought flickered through those green eyes, faster than I could follow. "Ah, yes. I see," Mother Summer said. "So many new futures unwinding."
"Too many bright ones," Mother Winter said sullenly.
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
Mother Winter spit to one side.
Molly going "Im good at divination" is literally something the dude from the pantheon with the Norns is going to be intimately familiar with, especially since he presumably knows the depth of the bench of minions behind her
The man is just taking the mickey out of the new girl.



VOTE
[X] Stonewall him, you are not going to reveal your sources (Charisma+Etiquette vs ???)
-[X] Etiquette Excellency + Boiling Sea Mastery



RATIONALE
Molly is Charisma 4, Subterfuge 3 and Etiquette 5.
Charisma 4 + Etiquette 5 + Excellency 9 + Stunt 2 is 20 dice.
Charisma 4 + Subterfuge 3 + Excellency 7 + Stunt 2 is 16 dice.

She's going to be much better at finessing and deflecting Odin's curiosity than trying to outright deceive him.
Play to our strengths.
 
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[X] Stonewall him, you are not going to reveal your sources (Charisma+Etiquette vs ???)
-[X] Etiquette Excellency + Boiling Sea Mastery


You don't ask Mab how she leads the defence against Outside. And you don't ask the godslayer how her magic works when she's picking up the slack.
 
1) She definitely doesnt have access to Lore of the Forge. And I suspect a few others will be off the table for balance reasons

2) <Lore> 4 costs the same as <Lore> 1 + 2 + Survival 2, AND it always costs Faith points to use.
So buying Lore 4 of anything is always a big deal.

I dont really see the argument for Awakening 4; it costs more than multiple lower-tier Lores, it uses an Attribute + Ability pair she's not good at (Intelligence 4 + Craft 0), it burns Faith points per use, and the power itself isnt really all that anyway (temporarily animating objects).

For that 15XP cost, we could buy Storms 1 + 2, or Winds 1 + 2, or Fundament 1 + 2, or any two of Wild 1 + Realms 1 + Spirit 1. It just doesnt look like a good buy.
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This all assumes she gets access to those lores, which is not a given.
She's going to be much better at finessing and deflecting Odin's curiosity than trying to outright deceive him.
Play to our strengths.
We don't know if Odin's dicepools for noticing the deception and getting past the stonewalling are the same. I actually doubt that.
 
Random thought. Could we discreetly learn mundane divination as a means of laundering our intellectus somehow?
Almost certainly yes, and as part of that effort, as well as for other reasons, I have been pushing to get at least one clone to work on astrology.

Edit: not that it would help. People know we have divination abilities, great ones, even. Their mechanism doesn't really matter, their extent and limitations do
 
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This all assumes she gets access to those lores, which is not a given.
Last Bright Opal called her Daughter of the Ocean.
25th of January 2007 A.D.

Having resolved to go the slow way you had expected to jog along after the fey herald down lanes and streets. Instead the girl, Last Bright Opal she asks to be called, seems fascinated at the idea of Black Rider and almost demands a ride. Then she proceeds to question every single traffic rule all the way to Harry's place and only abates when Tiffany gets in the car...

"Can you hear the storm, daughter of the ocean? Do you fear the sky child of the endless?"
To you they sound like nonsense limericks, but Tiffany answers instantly, rhyming as she goes: "Yes and less."
"Oh... that's weird," the girl replies, nodding to herself, but when you ask what's weird she just says: "Weird's good. She's a weirdo, not as much as you though
Im pretty sure she has access to at least Wind and Storms. And Fundament is something every Demon has access to.


We don't know if Odin's dicepools for noticing the deception and getting past the stonewalling are the same. I actually doubt that.
If we knew his weaknesses, there would be an argument for playing to his weaknesses.
Since we dont, we play to our strengths.
And we're better at Etiquette than Subterfuge.



Random thought. Could we discreetly learn mundane divination as a means of laundering our intellectus somehow?
Yes. Divination Path 1 is a priority for me.

Also note, that one of Molly's clones has the Rank 3 Gift Pain Chain

Pain Chain


Rank 3 Children of Gaia Gift

A doctor who treats only the symptoms of a disease doesn't cure it, but merely prolongs the patient's suffering. The Children of Gaia likewise know that only attacking the pawns of the Wyrm merely prolongs the Apocalypse War, rather than ending it. This Gift helps them go after the Wyrm itself by sensing who's pulling whose strings, and even understanding who's pulling theirs in turn. It is taught by a dog-spirit.

System: The player spends one point of Gnosis and rolls Perception + Investigation (difficulty 8). Each success lets you move "up the chain" one step, revealing the name and face of the next person delivering orders to your target. A single success would reveal that the corporate oil baron is being ridden by a particularly manipulative Bane, two would let you know which Black Spiral summoned the Bane, and three might tell you who that Black Spiral's alpha is. None of this informs the Child of Gaia where these people are, but it gives them firm names and visual impressions to go after.
Source: Players' Guide to Garou (revised)
So we do have something like this on tap already.
 
This all assumes she gets access to those lores, which is not a given.

We don't know if Odin's dicepools for noticing the deception and getting past the stonewalling are the same. I actually doubt that.
Same, but I think he's a lot better at noticing deception (wisdom being part of his portfolio) than getting past stonewalling. We don't know, but our definite strength against his (even-weakly-)probable weakness is by far the smarter play.

[X] Stonewall him, you are not going to reveal your sources (Charisma+Etiquette vs ???)
-[X] Etiquette Excellency + Boiling Sea Mastery
 
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At this point if Molly claimed to be able to smell outsiders I think that anyone who has been following her activities at all would believe her.
 
If Pain Chain is an Gift that Molly can teach wizards to bargain with spirits to be granted, then it significantly empowers them and gives an alibi for our abilities that still disguised most of what the Crown can do,
 
If Pain Chain is an Gift that Molly can teach wizards to bargain with spirits to be granted, then it significantly empowers them and gives an alibi for our abilities that still disguised most of what the Crown can do,

Level 3 is already getting on the pricey side for a full wizard, though what they could do is simply hire some sorcerers and minor talents whose job it is to learn gifts.
 
Level 3 is already getting on the pricey side for a full wizard, though what they could do is simply hire some sorcerers and minor talents whose job it is to learn gifts.

White Council trafficking the less-Talented to Molly Carpenter!!!

Is the Merlin selling the souls of human sorcerers to Hell?!?!

The Devil Will Have Her Due: Buying Power From Molly 101

If the Paranet existed online already, I can only imagine this would cause the wildest rumors about Molly.
 
White Council trafficking the less-Talented to Molly Carpenter!!!

Is the Merlin selling the souls of human sorcerers to Hell?!?!

The Devil Will Have Her Due: Buying Power From Molly 101

If the Paranet existed online already, I can only imagine this would cause the wildest rumors about Molly.
Complete with a picture of a teenaged girl wearing a T-shirt that says "I sold my soul to the Queen of Hell and all I got was this lousy T-shirt...and phenomenal cosmic power!"
 
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