OK, so I'll be assuming that we have relatively modern day-ish superconductors, with significantly better production technology. That's a market of at least upper tens of billions, and very scaleable. Nice.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Indeed though you have to explain it.
Would we? Even if it's a magical material, I think all we'd need to demonstrate is how toxic/explosive it is. We absolutely won't be disclosing manufacturing process to the public.
And it would seem like an outgrowth of synthetic diamonds. A radical one, but still growth from the base we have already set up.
Andis the material is magical, I think that would actually be a good way to setup masquerade breakdown.
As people poke it, which let's be clear they would, they are going to start to come up with theories like "this was done under anomalous physical constants". A material scientist given magical materials will eventually conclude that magic is real because that is how the brains of physicists work. So you would need someone on call to catch them before it becomes a beach of the masquerade.
That seems like way too small of a gap. Even with magic the mix a lot of the basic stuff sanctuary has is so far out there it's laughable. Unless a totally unpredictable breakthrough happens we're almost certainly not going to have cyberborgs where the replacement parts are anything like the quality of the originals just to name one example.
Screw governments they top out at a few thousand orders, the real money is in the civilian market, with it billions of costumers.
Just a superconductor wire better then copper, and potentially cheap would make Molly the richest person on the planet by a lot like near greater governments level of money. Every computer, every electric line, would have use it to remain competitive.
Just a superconductor wire better then copper, and potentially cheap would make Molly the richest person on the planet by a lot like near greater governments level of money. Every computer, every electric line, would have use it to remain competitive.
Yeah, as a physicist I realize that. And I consider this a very good route to slow and soft magical reveal. First, have it show as a quirky thing in a high tech cutting edge thing, then slowly expand. Make it a natural discovery.
True, but I think partially deceptive. We seem to use magic a lot in our tech base. Without it the gap is smaller. Or, rather, it's less applicable.
Ok I got here, vote will be closing in half an hour or so
Vote closed.
What's the gap in capability between a tech base that operates on the idea that electricity is a myth and one with modern electronics?
In canon even the magically aware part of the world thinks magic powerful enough to do anything worth talking about is incompatible with technology or industrialization. The way the laws of magic work there's technically a possibility it might not stay that way, but the timespan on a change like that is 3-5 centuries.
If we hand over our people's research they get a leg up, but the "natural" progression here without our interference could feasibly never go that way and take a very long time to catch up if it did.
I don't think that should be a small thing either. Industrialized magic should hit at least as hard as the Industrial Revolution*. Having slightly more modern superconductors seems like a ludicrous cap for people who can do stuff like convert heat to emotions then back again**. If your heat sink is rage that you feed to an emotivore how does that impact your basic engineering practices?
Hell, we've even seen the beginnings of this in the quest. Remember Porter's urban field? The subway station was completely disconnected from power and probably had numerous breaks in its internal wiring, but devices received power on the spot with precisely what they needed.
Even if you don't get that exotic alchemical operations to produce materials with special properties that don't require active maintenance is entry level stuff that should be the first thing to be scaled up. That's basically Material Engineering 2: The Engineers Strike Back. Basic problems like heat and electrical resistance should be trivial to solve when you can make mirrors stop bullets based on metaphors, or provide arbitrary protection against toxins with a stone that fits in your palm.
The gap here should be fundamental, not just a few decades of regular tech progress plus a few neat tricks. The division is a weird one to make in the first place.
* There's an argument to be made about the speed of the Industrial Revolution and the development of technology to the modern day, but I'd like to point out that there was a considerable period of cultural and economic shifts that created the conditions for it. The DF world is basically in the position of needing to realign its understanding of reality and determine how to apply that.
** Harry does stuff like this. Not directly, but he'll draw power from physical sources and things like the cast off emotional energy of people in his environment and use them to fuel whatever he's doing at the moment.
Edit:
A more concrete way to examine this is probably computers. How much are they involved in everything we do as a species these days, including things that didn't technically require them?
A lot of stuff is just built better now because you can use a computer to help make researching and designing things easier at pretty much every step. Even if you stipulated only comparing products without computers in them when looking at goods from a society that uses them and one that didn't the former would still blow the latter out of the water.
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Arc 13 Post 52: Improvisational Wizardry
Improvisational Wizardry
14th of February 2007 A.D.
"I am!" Harry's words ring out over the water and the island with only enough of a pause for your other self to confirm that he's still in the driver's seat. The guardian is a lot more imposing in person than in the vision of which it was not the focus, which is to say you're not sure you could take it in a fair fight. It's not the mass of elemental matter that's the problem, rather what that composition hints at. All the elements in balance... for some reason you had been convinced that it should have been feminine, but as soon as it spoke the sense of familiarity faded, the sense of power did not. In this narrow circle this being could contend with any invading power as you would with any who trespassed on Sanctuary.
Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 17/18
"What's happening?" Murphy's voice rises closer to panic than you had ever heard it as she watches Harry walk towards the stone giant.
"He's offered to take Father Murphy's old position I think, as keeper of this place. That's good..." What's not good, you don't add, is the way he'd clutched his heart when the thing had spoken.
Not for the first time you curse not being able to See the world in the way that Wizards do.
"I think he got tangled up in its wake trying to talk to it... it's using his heart as a voice box," Olivia's eyes narrow as she looks towards the shore, like she's trying to see through the glare of a great light as you feel the slight, insistent tugging of probabilities being skewed in your name.
Olivia loses 2 Demon Chi (Hellweaving) and 1 Willpower (Mana-sight)
"Don't interfere, Harry knows what he's doing," you cut in quickly. Not that you think there's much that a handgun could do against the elemental, but there was an outside chance it might just notice the detective, which would be very bad for her.
"Prove it! By craft, by will or by faith, make yourself known!"
Harry looks down at the tip of his staff, sinks into the loam of the island, his other hand patting his chest pocket for something. "Hell's bells, and me without any matches on me. Guess we're doing this the messy way."
With a wave of his hand he clears the space in front of him of leaves and debris splinters of rotten timbers and rusted nails flying and then he starts to draw a circle with the end of his staff, eyes closed. Centering himself... but why?
"He's trying to do a rite of Sanctum Invocation on the island," Sophia reports. The words are in Seeker Speech, but you know the White Council must have a version of it, it's the only thing that makes sense.
"He's trying to do ritual magic, with the thing right there and incarnate?" Lydia asks incredulously, but she's not looking at Harry, searching inside her purse instead. A moment later her fingers close around a silver athame. "Does anyone have candles, he's going to need something he can light and a bowl or chalice?"
Lydia loses 1 Essence -> Talisman now at 2/3
"There are cups in the cabin, glass not plastic," Dad cuts in, already on his way to grab some.
But there is another way you know, another place as close as your next breath where one might find instruments of spirit binding far more resonant and proper to the task than any improvisation put together on the fly. All that it requires is that you open a gate to Sanctuary next to that thing... No next to the lake, I can dissolve, reform, open on the shore, the frantic thought comes to you in less than a second.
What do you do?
[] In Harry Dresden and Improvisation we trust, let him work with whatever's to hand, don't make your nature obvious near the manifested spirit (Harry Arette roll DC 8)
[] Try to get him better equipment from Sanctuary (Wits+Subterfuge Base DC 7 vs the spirit's Gnosis+Bonuses? DC ???; If successful Harry's DC becomes 5 with proper tools)
[] Write in
OOC: When he did this in canon he was actually prepared to do it, he'd spoken with Bob and he had his stuff on him, now... well let's just say he did not wake up this morning thinking he's have to claim ownership over a supernatural prison.
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Probably isnt them.
The Catholic Church manages to operate extensive operations in South America just fine;
Even if it was, proportionality means we cant really respond to nonviolent harassment with an orgy of mass murder.
1) We havent talked about gold transmutation. We talked about other platinum group metals, but not gold.
Your sensibilities are in opposition to real world data.
Specifically this, from 1980:
In 1980, he transmuted several thousand atoms of bismuth-209 into gold (197Au) at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory. His experimental technique, using the lab's Bevalac particle accelerator, was able to remove protons and neutrons from the bismuth atoms by bombarding it with carbon and neon nuclei traveling near the speed of light.[47] Seaborg's technique would have been far too expensive to enable routine manufacturing of gold, but his work was close to the mythical Philosopher's Stone.[48][49] As gold has four fewer protons and (taking the only naturally occurring bulk isotopes of either) eight fewer neutrons than bismuth, a total of twelve nucleons have to be removed from the bismuth nucleus to produce gold using Seaborg's method.
Energy dependence of <SUP>209</SUP>Bi fragmentation in relativistic nuclear collisions
The results of cross-section measurements for the reactions <SUP>209</SUP>Bi(<SUP>12</SUP>C,X)Au, E=4.8 and 25.2 GeV and <SUP>209</SUP>Bi(<SUP>20</SUP>Ne,X)Au, E=8.0 GeV are reported. The observed yields of the gold isotopes show a similar dependence on mass number for each reaction, differing...
ui.adsabs.harvard.edu
Energy dependence of $^{209}\mathrm{Bi}$ fragmentation in relativistic nuclear collisions
The results of cross-section measurements for the reactions $^{209}\mathrm{Bi}(^{12}\mathrm{C},X)\mathrm{Au}$, $E=4.8 \mathrm{and} 25.2$ GeV and $^{209}\mathrm{Bi}(^{20}\mathrm{Ne},X)\mathrm{Au}$, $E=8.0$ GeV are reported. The observed yields of the gold isotopes show a similar dependence on...
journals.aps.org
Its expensive because of the power requirements for running a particle accelerator, which is not a concern for Molly because Tool Constructs handles that.
=====
2) One:
An audit by the IRS or US financial transactions would raise questions about where said gold came from; we do not operate a gold mine. Thats why Chicago Synthesis has been smalltime so far.
We have had a former US speaker go to jail for trying to hide his financial transactions.
This can become a serious irritant.
Two:
I would rather not put too much stuff from Sanctuary on the open market, where there are people who can attempt to use it as a scrying/tracking focus. Which is why I've only talked about importing bismuth, transmuting it, then exporting the gold product.
Rather than mining stuff.
=====
3) Real estate we can ward.
Paychecks and operating funds for the Jade Dogs and the increasing community at Last Station; they're up to a hundred and still growing. Operating funds for Sanctuary operatives on Earth. Trust fund for our family.
Operating funds for the movie studio we accepted responsibility for.
And then there are incidental expenses.
We had to pay a couple million to extract the families of Arianna Ortega's human snack packs from South America; if we hadnt just looted Arianna's walkabout money, we would have had to owe Odin another favor.
=====
4) Molly publicly claims to be queen of a nationstate. The Fae acknowledge this.
She has taken wizards to Sanctuary to meet with an array of magical specialists. She has supplied magitech weapons to the White Council. And publicly deploys said magical specialists in combat and guard roles.
Her pulling a lottery win would get the exact same response as it would if a wizard, or a major power did it.
Could be divination, either scrying or by summoning a divinatory spirit.
Could also be magical interference, where she fucked with the machine involved to get the result.
She has people for this. The supernatural world KNOWS she has people for this.
Nobody is jumping to "Perfect Divination".
=====
5)The QM has addressed this; I asked.
=====
6) You cannot seriously complain about the obviousness of a lottery pick, and then suggest that we go into manufacturing stuff that would get every scientist and major nationstate industrial espionage apparatus in the world frothing at the mouth to discover how we do it, and every detail that they can.
And no, we do not want to be reliant on a US govt agency for funding either.
Their interests are not always our interests, and no nationstate has ever passed up the opportunity to yank at financial strings.
As for the rest? Draining, or trying to drain, Red Court accounts is theft.
Major international financial crime, the sort of thing that gets multinational financial taskforces on your ass.
Just like, say, robbing Russian oligarchs or corrupt African politicians is theft.
Worse, because the Red Court is entwined with major Latin American govts and economic infrastructure, so you risk destabilizing nationstates. Not to mention that, given the prevalence of drug money in financial flows out of Latin America, you risk dumping us into international money laundering investigations as well.
Money on the nine and ten figure range doesnt just get to vanish into thin air and show up wearing a trenchcoat in someone else's name.
PS
None of that would be a 1AP investment to set up anyway.
Winning the lottery is.
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Rolls
Molly to figure out what this is... weirdly familiar, not a CoD, very damn powerful
Olivia uses demonic power to look at the magic... it is moderately effective
Stamina again not to take bashing damage
Does Harry Remember Obscure Shamanic Rituals off the top of his head... Dresden danger dice to the rescue
Lydia to remember how this works
Molly to figure out what this is... weirdly familiar, not a CoD, very damn powerful
Olivia uses demonic power to look at the magic... it is moderately effective
Stamina again not to take bashing damage
Does Harry Remember Obscure Shamanic Rituals off the top of his head... Dresden danger dice to the rescue
Lydia to remember how this works
Yup. People underestimate the effort that went into this thing.
Subterfuge is Key for Molly, so Wits 3 + Subterfuge 3 + Excellency 6 = 12 dice.
Without Honor is 2 dice(its February in Chicago, its COLD) and a 2-die stunt brings it up to 16 dice.
If she dunks herself into water, its -1DC, bringing the difficulty to DC6.
We would average 8 successes, which would be enough. Usually.
Still, thats fucking Demonreach, an entity powerful enough to imprison a Titan.
It has intellectus.
I dont really think there's any point in trying to fool it; it will know as soon as we, or anyone else, does anything on the island.
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
1)Is there anything preventing Molly simply using Mind-Hand Manipulation to send stuff to him?
It is a line of sight charm.
Cant we just pick up stuff from Sanctuary and then send it out?
2) Can Harry burn Willpower on his Arete roll?
The roll is at the point where you make a hole in reality on the shore of the lake, it can feel out to there. How it might react to that Molly is not sure.
See above the hole in reality is the problem
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That shouldnt be an issue.
Molly has Rendered Villain Dispersal; step into the lake, dissolve, show back up at the Chicago harbor, and leave for Sanctuary from there. Then return to that spot with the items on her, dissolve, show back up at the boat.
Shouldnt add more than 15 seconds to this entire affair.
Per Battleground the spirit's awareness reaches as far as the shores of the lake, which means she would have to go inland from the harbor where all the people are until she can find some privacy to play music and vanish from
That's debatable; proportionally isn't necessarily a deterrent and is mostly about controlling the pace of escalation. In some situations all it amounts to is letting your enemy probe you as they please until they find a good place to stick the knife in properly.
I'd argue that the Church's operations would be the motive for the reds to poke at them, especially if it's meant to be distracting. They might be using a proxy, but they've still got means and motive. Obviously we need to investigate and go after the actual actors involved, but I think there are good odds the reds are involved.
If it is them then I'm not convinced that playing geopolitical patty-cake with them is desirable.
To my mind war with the red court aimed at dissolving it* is inevitable; it's just a matter of when we want to get into it. The court is a horrific machine fueled by profound human misery on a good day. It serves no real purpose and keeps helping things that want to kill reality as a whole. I don't want peaceful relations in the first place.
* Not to kill the species like happened in canon, but to give the political body something like what Japan and Germany got post WW2.
Point of correction:
You're mistaken. Per Peace Talks the spirit's awareness reaches much farther than that. Its its reach that only gets as far as the shores of the lake, and it needs help for that.
Peace Talks said:
It felt and recognized Ethniu inside the city of Chicago before Harry even told it about the Titan being about.
Ergo, it has had to have felt Molly's gates for the last couple months across Chicago.
Feeling another one at Chicago harbor isnt going to make any difference.
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Only if it could see through the Ebon Dragon charm that is Black Mirror Incarnation, Molly has not done anything to shatter it so far. Invoking The King and the Kingdom would... and more to the point since it does have a working memory it would know what whatever you are has just been on its shores, taking to the wizard trying to bind it.
There seems to be a miscommunication here. I do not dispute that scientific magic / moronic science is bigger than discovery of gravity or electricity, hoth in the fundamental and practical sense.
The technology of the courts is something Earth cannot replicate in many ways, simply because Earth lacks magic. You fundamentally cannot make steam powered laser, or a mechanical MRI.
With the superconductor example, I suspect that the use of them, as part of a mature magitech technological ecosystem is fundamentally different than what Earth could do with them. I expect our superconductors to be able to handle more current at higher magnetic fields at higher temperatures while being mechanically more durable and not prone to breaking down.
However, I expect that our least magical superconductors, if taken out of said magical ecosystem, and dumbed down to include as little active magic as possible, to only be ~ 50 or so years more advanced than 2006 Earth science. Which is to say, ridiculously more advanced, but not an outright blatantly magical material. We, after all, don't need and shouldn't share our best. Got to maintain the technological advantage.
Also, as I said, such a thing would be a perfect bait to start slowly rolling out the masquerade breakdown. Have the scientists and engineers discover ghat this new stuff behaves anomalously, and control where their discoveries lead them.
- Location
- At Home
Thread, is there a charm that lets us do this? And would it be worth getting?
You're missing my point.
Molly has been invoking the King and Kingdom across Chicago for the last couple months.
Alfred here canonically has the range to have sensed it. However, he has/had no means of associating those gates with Molly because he's never seen her open a gate.
If Molly returns to Chicago harbor with RVD, Alfred cant see her, and cant associate the gate with her either.
He can still sense the gate open, but he cant see her do so.
And BMI hides her aura from him as well.
So he has no way of associating them.
Or so it seems to me.
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The Sight is 15XP and requires training with Harry
Essence Dissecting Stare is 9-12XP.