4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Remember that 'near' is 100 x the diameter of the planet in kilometres.
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Space is really, really, really big. Defenses in a hollow sphere the size of Neptune, the smallest gas giant's, jump limit, would have to cover 7.6 billion kilometers. That's simply untenable. Weapons have maximum effective ranges. I do not think anyone has lasers capable of traveling light-minutes and maintain enough coherence to be destructive, and if they do, we're probably not going to beat them anyway.
How do you calculate 7.6 billion kilometers? That is way too much, the distance between Saturn and the Sun is "only" 1.4 billion kilometers.
Saturn's diameter is 120,000 km, 100 times that is 12 million kilometers? This is equivalent to "only" 0.66 lightminutes, which does not sound unbeliavable to cover with scifi tech.
Edit: mixed up Saturn with Neptune for some reason, but my point still stands, since Neptune is even smaller than Saturn, which I did my calculations for.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Surface area is a different calculation than diameter. The relevant shape is is a sphere, it covers three dimensions.
Of course surface area is different, but I assumed you were talking about distances since you used units of kilometers, not square kilometers.
Anyway, I fail to see how using surface area instead of distance is relevant? The hostile ships or stations can shoot in three dimensions, their effective range is a sphere as well. So we should be looking at how large these spheres are compared to the jump limit sphere. For this, we only need to consider the diameters.
As an example, if we take Saturn's jump limit sphere, and place just one ship in the center, said ship can cover the entire sphere within 0.66 lightminutes per my calculation. Do you disagree with this?
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@grimely thanks so much for the calculations, especially on the range/power tradeoff of beam weapons! This issue is precisely why I've been pushing for long-range multi-role vessels with kinetic strike capability from torpedoes, as that will give our ships more terminal capability in 3D space.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Not at light speeds. Like, you could maybe make whoever is out there sit up and pay attention if you can figure out where they're going to be in 80 seconds (40s to receive their location, 40s for the shot to go out) but you're probably going to want to be tossing very long range semi-ballistic munitions at that range, which will take longer to get there but have terminal guidance at least.
If the ship arrives at a point 0.66 light minutes from the detector ship (11.87Gm), then by the time the detector ship's laser beam reaches the incoming ship, it will have moved 31 kilometres if it is only accelerating at 1G.
ETA: I cannot stress how important the light-lag is in targeting. At 40 light seconds, you won't even know if you've hit until another 40 seconds after you pull the trigger with a laser.
If the ship arrives at a point 0.66 light minutes from the detector ship (11.87Gm), then by the time the detector ship's laser beam reaches the incoming ship, it will have moved 31 kilometres if it is only accelerating at 1G.
ETA: I cannot stress how important the light-lag is in targeting. At 40 light seconds, you won't even know if you've hit until another 40 seconds after you pull the trigger with a laser.
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Obviously, this is very much true and makes a lot of sense. But I do want to point out that did not mean to say that one ship at 40 lightseconds could effectively destroy our scout, only that we are talking about millions of kilometers, not billions.
Consequently, I do believe ambushing scouts arriving in a system is generally possible. By using several ships or defense platforms strategically placed overseeing the gravity well, the real distance between the arriving Scout and potential enemies is likely significantly less than 40 lightseconds. The light-lag also applies to the targeted ship, they will not know they have been fired upon before the light reaches them.
Generally, if our scouts arrive within lightseconds of enemy ships or platforms, being able to jump out within minutes rather than an hour may become absolutely critical. An enemy ship or munition moving at 1% of the speed of light will still move 40 lightseconds in 4000 seconds, so about 1 hour and 7 minutes.
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0t4n1z3r019
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[X] Plan Civilian
Another question occurs when it comes to long-range engagements. What's the maximum effective range of point defense? Or rather, consider the following scenario. We've got our stand-off missiles and launch them from their maximum range. The defending ship sees that, engages their M-Drives and burns to reduce the relative speeds of our missiles. It engages it's point defense as soon as feasible. Under these circumstances, how long can the point-defense be active and is that enough time to intercept all missiles?
At some point, we ought to organize some wargames to work these things out in practice.
At some point, we ought to organize some wargames to work these things out in practice.
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4-5: Hermosa
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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What is the navies opinion of this? If the Navy must support civilian enterprise in order to expand its own capabilities, that is a price we must pay.
Speaking of designations, should -0202 be named? Name it Heimdall, after the lost ship.
What should these 2,000 tons be used for? Purpose-built ship for diplomats at 1K tonnes. The remaining yard space is assigned for an Interstellar Surveyor refit
Diplomatic Transport
With the sheer number of inhabited systems making themselves apparent to our explorers, it is becoming clear that we need a ship that can carry a team of specialised diplomats in well-protected comfort. Thus, after a brief RFP period, Scansion Industries suggests a relatively 'simple' modification to the Interstellar Cruiser design that would make it into the perfect platform to conduct such a mission:
- Quarters for a diplomat and their staff
- A FLIF honour guard of a single section, a sergeant and an officer.
- A conference room cum library that can be re-equipped as a dining room.
- A 20-dton green space and biosphere that will not only provide for the oxygen needs of the crew (though most of that is algae tanks hidden beneath bulkheads) but can also be re-equipped as a dining area, meeting space or other necessary room.
This 'Diplomatic Courier' variant of the ship would, vitally, be capable of holding station without resupply for four months, or twelve to fourteen weeks if jump travel is included. It would also, on basic scans, look just like any other Interstellar Cruiser, and could not be singled out from amongst a combined group by any hostile group without dedicated scans.
Should this meet the approval of the Home Space Warfare Service, an example could be laid down as soon as possible and then completed in 18 months.
05y10m00w - HSLS Lakapati, HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya depart Home, heading for sector 00,01
05y10m01w - HSLS Lakapati, HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya arrive in 00,01. HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya tank off of the logistics ship and immediately jump onwards to mission objectives.
05y10m02w - HSWS Aditi arrives in sector -01,02 begins scanning operation over anomalous transient body. Operation expected to last until 05y11m01w. HSWS Culsans and HSWS Tishtrya arrive in Nova Refugio. HSWS Tishtrya moves to anomalous object and begins scanning operation. Operation expected to last until 05y11m01w. HSWS Culsans moves to orbit over Nova Refugio main world, flashing previously-agreed welcome signals.
05y11m00w - After two weeks of attempted diplomacy, HSWS Culsans retreats from orbit over Nova Refugio, rendezvousing with HSWS Tishtrya and assisting as best possible with survey of NR-6.
05y11m01w - HSWS Aditi departs sector -01,02. HSWS Culsans and HSWS Tishtrya depart Nova Refugio.
05y11m02w - HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya arrive in sector 00,01, begin tanking operations from HSLS Lakapati. HSLS Lakapati, HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya depart sector 00,01.
05y11m03w - HSLS Lakapati, HSWS Culsans, HSWS Aditi, and HSWS Tishtrya arrive in Home and prepare for debriefing.
- Transient body currently designated -01,02-8 - 4,800km object, breathable atmosphere of 0.78 bars average pressure, temperate climate, 57% liquid water surface indicated to be saline H2O (Code X466000-0). Orbit is highly inclined and off-axis compared to rest of the system. Suspect that this body has been captured in the last millennia and may well be ejected again in future. Both moons are large asteroid-sized bodies. Some evidence of architecture detected on planets surface incl. structure that may have been a star-port. No evidence of current habitation. Further work will require landing a team.
- Report on the inhabited planet designated -01,02-7 - "There's no carbon emissions. There's no heat sources. There's no lights at night. There's just water, land and people. We can see the smoke from fires on long-gain telescopes, but nothing big enough to be considered a... a modern, advanced civilisation. We have come to the conclusion that not only is this population pre-spaceflight, they're pre-industrialisation. We would recommend high and low orbital observations if we would like a better understanding of them, whoever they are."
- Anomalous body currently designated Nova Refugio-6 - 16,000km super-planet, unusual, non-corrosive atmosphere of 2 bars average pressure, all indications demonstrate a temperate climate. Planet is entirely covered in liquid of unknown composition (Code XAAA000-0). May support unknown life, may simply be an oddity of the universe. Recommend further study, development of aerostat or pressure-hulled vessels for deep diving.
- Report on attempted diplomatic negotiations with inhabitants of Nova Refugio - "The inhabitants of Nova Refugio are on the run, on an interstellar scale. They are refugees of a larger inhabited polity deeper out into unknown space, one which has descended into authoritarianism. Rather than attempt to survive within their own system, they've jumped three parsecs out and settled on the first planet they can survive on. They are not at all interested in drawing attention to themselves - they would seem to prefer to avoid being dragged into anyone else's conflicts either. Vitally, they have shared their origin point with us: a well developed, technologically advanced system in what we would call -03,03 but which they call 'Hermosa'.
Are we content with the diplomatic courier design?
[ ] Yes, order one.
[ ] No, this doesn't meet our needs.
[ ] It could be improved by the following means: write-in.
What are our next steps for exploration, diplomacy and war-making? Select as many as you would like:
[ ] We should design an aerostat/pressure hulled shuttle to explore gas giants and the anomalous world.
[ ] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
[ ] Inform the government of Xyri of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
[ ] Inform the government of S'Taxu of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Northern View', from sector 01,-02.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Eastern View', from Xyri.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
[ ] Write-in additional suggestions for operational actions.
Please present any votes as a plan. Voting opens at
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This seems to imply they have a better Jump drives than Jump-1, otherwise "the first planet they can survive on" which they found would be preindustrial -01,02-7
(or that they saw it but decided that it's too close to Hermosa and moved further)
[ ] It could be improved by the following means: write-in.
The diplomatic vessel could be improved by instead opting for a single item. Streamlining of the hull. While this will reset the yards familiarity with the hull design and extend construction time, it will provide two bonuses. 1) Allow the entire craft to land on inhabited planets. Nothing could inspire more trust than completely putting the ship at the mercy of the host nation. 2) The ship should not share a signature with a warship. This is not seen as a positive for diplomatic relations if our diplomatic ships could be said to just be repurposed (which we know is not true as there is MUCH internal and external design differences between the two ships) cruisers.
As for my opinion on the others;
[ ] We should design an aerostat/pressure hulled shuttle to explore gas giants and the anomalous world.
We should slow down on new designs, at least for a little while. This is also the anomalous body that will stay in orbit for a while.
[ ] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
Yes, this is the easiest exploration option rn. Plus it might lead to some tech advancement.
[ ] Inform the government of Xyri of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
[ ] Inform the government of S'Taxu of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
Currently ambivalent.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Northern View', from sector 01,-02.
Leaning most toward this op.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Eastern View', from Xyri.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
See above
The diplomatic vessel could be improved by instead opting for a single item. Streamlining of the hull. While this will reset the yards familiarity with the hull design and extend construction time, it will provide two bonuses. 1) Allow the entire craft to land on inhabited planets. Nothing could inspire more trust than completely putting the ship at the mercy of the host nation. 2) The ship should not share a signature with a warship. This is not seen as a positive for diplomatic relations if our diplomatic ships could be said to just be repurposed (which we know is not true as there is MUCH internal and external design differences between the two ships) cruisers.
As for my opinion on the others;
[ ] We should design an aerostat/pressure hulled shuttle to explore gas giants and the anomalous world.
We should slow down on new designs, at least for a little while. This is also the anomalous body that will stay in orbit for a while.
[ ] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
Yes, this is the easiest exploration option rn. Plus it might lead to some tech advancement.
[ ] Inform the government of Xyri of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
[ ] Inform the government of S'Taxu of our discoveries, with the following goal: [write-in]
Currently ambivalent.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Northern View', from sector 01,-02.
Leaning most toward this op.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Eastern View', from Xyri.
[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
See above
Hmmm... It's not how I envisioned the diplomatic transport, but the outcome isn't bad. To me, using the same hull is an advantage. We might opt to paint it so that it looks different from close up. We could name it "VIP Cruiser".
Or, those planets were in the middle of some catastrophe. Or, their route was not a straight line. Even so, it's worth keeping it in mind.
With news of Hermanosa, Heimdall became an important system. We ought to have at least the same station as we do in Deep Hope, plus some patrols. Heimdall's is easily within Hermanosa's sphere, but we haven't seen signs of that system being claimed. I wonder why is that? Perhaps Hermanaso fell and lost their technology similar to how the oceanic planet fared? Still, I wouldn't want to explore over there until after we developed Heimdall.
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Hmm, I think we have to prepare for the possibility that Hermosa is hostile to our interests. Authoritarian governments are prone to expansionism, and given that the refugees are hiding, it seems like they did not leave on good terms.
I think any large-scale activity in Heimdall is risky, since if Hermanosa is still around and hostile, it may provoke them. First, we need to get our hands on Nova Refugio's tech. If they truly have better jump drives than us, we really need that tech in order to stand a chance against Hermanosa.
Agreed. At this moment it seems that the next round of yard space will be dedicated to stations.
It's not time-sensitive, I think getting a general overview of stuff on our other borders is more important. We need to know what to prioritize.
We haven't discovered anything of particular importance to them.
The Deep Hope Station isn't finished yet, so I'd be partial to do Western View. Jump the exploration fleet with our tanker to -02:00 and investigate the three adjactent hexes.
There's nothing preventing us from pursuing both at once. At 06y07m02w Staging Point Station is complete. From that point on I think we should assign one Interstellar Cruiser to patrol Heimdall. If after some time we find no signs of traffic in the system, then we ought to claim and put a station over there.
EDIT: Basic plan for consideration:
[ ] Plan Western View
-[ ] Yes, order one.
-[ ] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
--[ ] Similar to Southern View. Assign both DDSs, an FSS and 4 ICs. Begin at -02:00.
-[ ] After Staging Point station is complete, assign one Insterstellar Cruiser for periodic patrols in Heimdall.
-[?] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
Notice that two prerequisite conditions must be met to attempt this operation. First, there must be a refuelling agreement with Nova Refugio or refuelling station at Staging Point must be completed. Second, our Interstellar Surveyors must complete their refits. When this is done we can send both ISs escorted by two ICs to conduct the mission. For those reasons, it might be too early to include this in the current plan.
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Oh, ancient ruins! Maybe we get find something that gives us a technological leg up.
Remind me again why voters decided to go all "Prime Directive" on this world? Shouldn't we colonize and exploit them so they can rebel against us in a few hundred years or something?
Well that's not great. At least we know what direction to point our warships at.
...and now we've gotten to the point in the quest where the decision-making is getting increasingly complex and much harder to wrap my brain around if I'm only willing to spend 10 to 15 minutes a day thinking about this quest.
[X] Deep diving and Looking to Hermosa
-[X] It could be improved by the following means: Aesthetics. Make sure that the diplomatic cruiser is visually different from the standard interstellar cruiser, so claims it is a "diplomatic vessel" hold more weight.
-[X] We should design an aerostat/pressure hulled shuttle to explore gas giants and the anomalous world.
-[X] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
-[X] Inform the government of S'Taxu of our discoveries, with the following goal: Organize a defense strategy against the large, potentially hostile authoritarian power in Hermosa.
-[X] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Eastern View', from Xyri.
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Too early, I think. Our intel on Hermosa is at best decades out of date, it's not credible enough. That said, we could be telling them something to the effect of "those Cruisers that are leaving your system are used to keep an eye out on potential authoritarian empire that is rumored to exist."
Unless Hermosa completely collapsed they are at least a potential threat. I don't think there's in harm in starting to talk through how we might defend ourselves.
I strongly agree. We are the Space Warfare Branch, our job is to guard Home by military force, not concern ourselves with politics or diplomacy. Home's approach towards Hermosa will be a political decision, but our task as the military is to create a defense strategy with the assumption that Hermosa is hostile and dangerous. Our job is to build defenses and make contingencies, even if it is likely neither will be needed.
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Ok, an authoritarian power like 10 jumps away is not the extreme threat I was worried about. It's not great, and we should probably have a plan, but it could be worse.
[X] Deep diving and Looking to Hermosa
I agree with Briefvoice here, this seems like a good set of priorities. We gotta learn more about the ruins and the strange planetoid, there could be a lot of interesting information there.
[X] Deep diving and Looking to Hermosa
I agree with Briefvoice here, this seems like a good set of priorities. We gotta learn more about the ruins and the strange planetoid, there could be a lot of interesting information there.
OK, informing S'taxu and visual differentiation sounds reasonable. However, I do not think constructing an aerostat right now is the best use of our yard space. Besides, it's the sort of specialized research craft the civilians might build on their own, I wonder if there's interest in the scientific community for that. In addition, remember that deeper studies of -01:02 and Operation Western/Northern/Eastern View are mutually exclusive until additional infrastructure is built in Staging Point or Nova Refugio agrees to refuelling, plus that our Interstellar Surveyors are scheduled for upgrades.
[X] Plan Western View
-[X] Yes, order one.
--[X] If feasible without forgoing the construction bonus, include visual differentiation from Interstellar Cruisers.
-[X] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
--[X] Similar to Southern View. Assign both DDSs, an FSS and 4 ICs. Begin at -02:00.
-[X] Inform the government of S'Taxu of the possible threat from Hermosa. Inform them that HSWS will be maintaining observations in that direction and offer to hold talks regarding potential defense coordination.
--[X] After Staging Point station is complete, assign one Insterstellar Cruiser for periodic patrols in Heimdall.
-[X] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
--[X] This should be done after Interstellar Surveyors have their systems upgraded and either the FFS has returned from Western View, or Staging Point station is able to refuel the expedition, or Nova Refugio has agreed to refuel our craft. Both ISs and two escort ICs should be assigned to the operation.
[X] Plan Western View
-[X] Yes, order one.
--[X] If feasible without forgoing the construction bonus, include visual differentiation from Interstellar Cruisers.
-[X] Organise and conduct an 'Operation Western View', from sector S'Taxu.
--[X] Similar to Southern View. Assign both DDSs, an FSS and 4 ICs. Begin at -02:00.
-[X] Inform the government of S'Taxu of the possible threat from Hermosa. Inform them that HSWS will be maintaining observations in that direction and offer to hold talks regarding potential defense coordination.
--[X] After Staging Point station is complete, assign one Insterstellar Cruiser for periodic patrols in Heimdall.
-[X] We should conduct deeper studies of -01,02, including orbital surveys of '-7' and landing teams on '-8'.
--[X] This should be done after Interstellar Surveyors have their systems upgraded and either the FFS has returned from Western View, or Staging Point station is able to refuel the expedition, or Nova Refugio has agreed to refuel our craft. Both ISs and two escort ICs should be assigned to the operation.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think we should continue building scientific/exploration craft instead of hoping the civilians do it for us. The reason we're crunched for yard space is because of the monitor, after all.
I'm less sure of telling S'Taxu. But currently this seems like the best approach
[X] Deep diving and Looking to Hermosa
I'm less sure of telling S'Taxu. But currently this seems like the best approach
[X] Deep diving and Looking to Hermosa
Exploration, yes. Scientific, no. We're the Home Space Warfare Service. 'Scouting Service' has not yet separated from us so it's our job to chart unknown space, but scientific missions are not our job. This was established way back when we refused Society for Interplanetary Science when first constructing the Interstellar Surveyor.