Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

Interesting question. The main problem with that is there would be no way to use active sensors, since there wouldn't be enough time.
Fair enough. In practice it would likely be better to wait a few minutes, to allow scanning with active sensors.

That said, I think the idea still has real merit, if technically feasible. Such a ship would be very difficult to destroy, since it could jump out as soon as it detects any kind of sensor signal from another, potentially hostile ship.
 
Ooops. It doesn't make sense to wait in that case. All right then guys, what name do we choose? Heimdall? Xuan Phan? Machadamia? I'll rewrite the plan to do Xuan Phan for the time being.

We ought to have some defenses, but in the end it's not a combat vessel. If it finds itself in active combat it should be jumping ASAP.
Heimdall I think. A lot more people died on it than just the captain.

Defensive weapons and engines help buy time for that, though.

The way I see it, is that Deep Space Surveyors make the initial pass and then Interstellar Surveyors come and do more detailed and long-term analyses.

That works fine for a thorough survey, but my concern is jumping into potentially inhabited systems.

The Interstellar Surveyor was specifically built tough, to run away from any trouble and defend itself if need be, though its point-defence suite has proven tragically outdated, while the Deep Space Surveyor is built for long-duration observation missions and is not equipped for danger (its more modern defensive weapons suite notwithstanding).

Edit: it may also be worth redesignating the class to clarify its role and prevent confusion with the DSS - "Pathfinder", perhaps.
 
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Heimdall I think. A lot more people died on it than just the captain.
Done.
Defensive weapons and engines help buy time for that, though.
Point. We'll see the design that comes out of the drawing board and modify it if needed. We want for it do double as passanger liner, so it'll depend on the number of people on board.
,while the Deep Space Surveyor is built for long-duration observation missions and is not equipped for danger (its more modern defensive weapons suite notwithstanding).
Because the Deep Space Surveyor wants to make observations of the furthests hexes it's almost always that ship that is going to enter unexplored hexes. Whether that warrants beefing up the Deep Space Surveyor or allows us to strip more defenses from Interstellar Surveryor is an open question. Or perhaps both?
 
Hmm, a thought related to gatecrashing and scouting, especially in hostile territory: what is the limiting factor for how quickly a ship with a Warp Drive can do consecutive jumps? Could a hypothetical ship with two separate Warp Drives jump into a system and jump back out a few seconds later?

Huh. It takes about an hour to jump after jumping, but that's with one J-Drive. If a ship has two that might be possible, but there are two issues that would make seconds unlikely. The first is that your course has to be plotted, and the second is that the jump drive needs to be charged. You can't really precharge because you can only hold a charge for up to 3 hours and the total travel time variance is larger than that. Still, this would reduce the emergency get out now maneuver from an hour for the drive to cycle to mere minutes for the second drive's capacitors to charge.
 
Done.

Point. We'll see the design that comes out of the drawing board and modify it if needed. We want for it do double as passanger liner, so it'll depend on the number of people on board.

Because the Deep Space Surveyor wants to make observations of the furthests hexes it's almost always that ship that is going to enter unexplored hexes. Whether that warrants beefing up the Deep Space Surveyor or allows us to strip more defenses from Interstellar Surveryor is an open question. Or perhaps both?

Passenger liner is a fair thought, hadn't considered that. Though in this case might we be better off sending an RFP to civilian yards?

My understanding of system scouting is:
  • The greatest danger is in first contacts, when tensions are highest and each participant knows the least about the other.
  • An encounter in a deep space sector is extremely unlikely and would have minimal stakes - there is little of interest to attract ships or be worth fighting over, without a fixed target to aim for the odds of emerging near another ship are extremely low, and if we do, a foreign captain may jump away at will.
  • A sector with a planetoid or anomaly visible on long-range telescopes is a moderate risk: the object provides a natural jump destination, may be valuable, and an encounter with ships or stations could be at very close range due to the small jump limit of minor bodies. However, stakes are likely to be low: an encounter is most likely to be with foreign explorers or a minor outpost facility.
  • A sector with a star and planets is a high risk: such a sector contains the resources and planets most societies need, creating both high chances of a contact and very high stakes: an unscheduled emergence could be a threat against local populations or even the Homeworld itself. And, as in S'taxu, we may find ourselves in the crossfire of a local conflict over the system and its resources.
  • Arriving with large ships or in force could provoke exactly the hostilities we want to prevent, and between the scattered arrivals of fleets and lack of knowledge of the destination, there is no guarantee a reconnaissance in force would be any more survivable than a smaller scouting party.
Therefore, the first entry to an unknown solar system should be made by a widely-spaced pair of relatively small, high-survivability survey ships, preferably with limited offensive armament to reduce implicit threat. The first and foremost mission of these ships is to get an overview of the system and return to tell the tale.

Deep Space Surveyors observe unknown space from a distance before jumping farther out; if they find any star systems, those are a job for the Interstellar Surveyors/Pathfinders. A DSS should not enter an unexplored solar system. So they are entering unknown space, but are not jumping blind, and not entering the sectors with the highest risk of hostile first contact.

Ideally the DSSes would be exploring along the edge of known space, observing but not entering areas likely to be inhabited. Exploration missions of Pathfinders, possibly backed by flotillas containing both armed ships and diplomatic second-wave contact teams, then go in to find out what's what. Once it's clear, a DSS can enter to survey the system and take observations of what lies beyond.

Edit: however, if as above we're deploying Pathfinders in matched pairs, we might amend the designs to reduce duplicated features and add new ones. Though that would make system surveys take longer if only one ship can do each task.
 
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@4WheelSword I know I'm not the first person to suggest this, but maybe it would be prudent to have our intel branch watching S'taxi-flagged jump vessels? The Xyphoni who didn't disarm might be planning an OBIED targeted for the PMC or our yards, for all we know. Or am I thinking too far ahead?
 
@4WheelSword what's the smallest practical ship capable of Jump 2 and a basic system survey, and can we fit it in a shuttle bay? Preferably with some survivability. Basic as in star type, number and type of planets, and whether there's spacecraft or radios around that might be a threat.

It occurs that another approach to the Buddy System might be some kind of jumpshuttle tender sending a pair of, frankly, expendable canaries ahead.

In a military role, perhaps a non-jump-capable shuttle could carry missiles or a torpedo or light particle beam or something. Not sure if that would be tactically workable or just a good way to get people killed.

On the same note, is it possible for an automated craft to jump? IE a probe that jumps in, takes a look around, screams WE COME IN PEACE if someone points a targeting radar at it, and jumps back out.
 
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Aren't we keeping an eye on it already? Our peace deal stipulated no jump-capable ships unless agreed upon by all sides and I assume fine print included provisions for some inspections?

That was my thinking, but it might also be a cool action setpiece for later-Clancyverse goofs in space!!!! :V:V
 
Therefore, the first entry to an unknown solar system should be made by a widely-spaced pair of relatively small, high-survivability survey ships, preferably with limited offensive armament to reduce implicit threat. The first and foremost mission of these ships is to get an overview of the system and return to tell the tale.
@4WheelSword what's the smallest practical ship capable of Jump 2 and a basic system survey, and can we fit it in a shuttle bay? Preferably with some survivability. Basic as in star type, number and type of planets, and whether there's spacecraft or radios around that might be a threat
Would this role not be better filled by this ship concept?
Huh. It takes about an hour to jump after jumping, but that's with one J-Drive. If a ship has two that might be possible, but there are two issues that would make seconds unlikely. The first is that your course has to be plotted, and the second is that the jump drive needs to be charged. You can't really precharge because you can only hold a charge for up to 3 hours and the total travel time variance is larger than that. Still, this would reduce the emergency get out now maneuver from an hour for the drive to cycle to mere minutes for the second drive's capacitors to charge.
Rather than sending two ships, send one ship with two J-Drives. This is more efficient in terms of tonnage and crew, our two limiting factors. And one such ship will be very, very survivable, since potential hostiles would only have minutes to find the scout ship, get a lock on it, and destroy it. This is impossible unless the scout is extremely unlucky and jumps to a position right next to a hostile ship. For reference, our Solar system is 22 light hours across, and light from the Sun takes 8 min to reach Earth.
 
If it works, and if a doublejump doesn't risk catapulting the ship and crew directly into the Shadow Realm.

I suspect it's very unlikely to work.
 
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If this is feasible the next generation of scouts should be utilizing this design. That said, it's not without disadvantages when compared to tandem jumps. If there's an accident or mis-jump we wouldn't know what happened. Still, it's a corner case scenario.
 
Rather than sending two ships, send one ship with two J-Drives. This is more efficient in terms of tonnage and crew, our two limiting factors. And one such ship will be very, very survivable, since potential hostiles would only have minutes to find the scout ship, get a lock on it, and destroy it. This is impossible unless the scout is extremely unlucky and jumps to a position right next to a hostile ship. For reference, our Solar system is 22 light hours across, and light from the Sun takes 8 min to reach Earth.

The reason why this isn't usually done is because an emergency jump with one J-Drive is usually fast enough to get out unless you jumped directly at an anchorage, which is what happened with the Heimdall. Considering the amount of time it takes to do a jump from zero it's honestly unclear if two J-Drives would've saved it, especially since any damage to it could result in a misjump anyway. Like, we really did just get absurdly, cosmically unlucky (probably for the sake of drama) with the Heimdall. Jumping in on a gas giant, even one actively used as a fueling point, should still be basically safe unless you land exactly where their infrastructure is - which we did. They're really big, after all.
 
I mean we could end up landing on a Gas Dwarf. (This unfunny joke was brought to you by me.)

More seriously I think we should just take the downtime to pump out some more station components. We have a rather healthy fleet composition at the moment and can wait until the monitor is finished to start constructing more ships.
 
The reason why this isn't usually done is because an emergency jump with one J-Drive is usually fast enough to get out unless you jumped directly at an anchorage, which is what happened with the Heimdall. Considering the amount of time it takes to do a jump from zero it's honestly unclear if two J-Drives would've saved it, especially since any damage to it could result in a misjump anyway.
I disagree, if the difference really is one hour vs a few minutes, the former is obviously much more risky.

Like, we really did just get absurdly, cosmically unlucky (probably for the sake of drama) with the Heimdall. Jumping in on a gas giant, even one actively used as a fueling point, should still be basically safe unless you land exactly where their infrastructure is - which we did. They're really big, after all.
How do you figure? They are not really that big, not big enough. For example, the distance from Earth to the Sun is 8 light minutes. Thus, if our Scout would enter a hostile system this distance from hostile ships armed with lasers, it has a minimum of 16 minutes of time to jump to safety before risking being destroyed (8 minutes for the signal revealing the scout's presence to reach the hostile ship, 8 more minutes for the hotile ship's laser barrage to reach our scout). In practice, it likely takes longer for hostiles to aim, lock and fire, but it is still clear that needing one hour for the emergency jump can be fatal.
 
@4WheelSword what's the smallest practical ship capable of Jump 2 and a basic system survey, and can we fit it in a shuttle bay?
On the same note, is it possible for an automated craft to jump? IE a probe that jumps in, takes a look around, screams WE COME IN PEACE if someone points a targeting radar at it, and jumps back out.
Smallest ship capable of jumping is 100 tons. Hard limit. You could maybe fit two drives and 2 jumps of fuel on a 100 tonner (plus bridge, crew quarters etc.)
It is not (at least not currently) possible for a computer to run a jump drive.
 
How do you figure? They are not really that big, not big enough. For example, the distance from Earth to the Sun is 8 light minutes. Thus, if our Scout would enter a hostile system this distance from hostile ships armed with lasers, it has a minimum of 16 minutes of time to jump to safety before risking being destroyed (8 minutes for the signal revealing the scout's presence to reach the hostile ship, 8 more minutes for the hotile ship's laser barrage to reach our scout). In practice, it likely takes longer for hostiles to aim, lock and fire, but it is still clear that needing one hour for the emergency jump can be fatal.

Physics. Even ignoring the fact that the coherence of direct energy weapons degrade over long distances and a range in the light-minutes would require an immense energy source, and the fact that in this example the targeted ship would have minutes to maneuver in any direction it pleased with no possibility of the enemy having foreknowledge of where to shoot, J-Drives in standard operation do not dump you into empty space, instead they target a gravity well to use as an anchor point.

When traveling through J-Space the ship is going in a more or less straight line, from origin to destination, and exits back into realspace at or near the object's jump limit. This is why deep space comets are so useful, they serve as anchor points in otherwise empty parsecs. What this means when jumping to a gas giant in an uncharted system though is that a point on that planet's surface is picked and we just go straight towards it, stopping when approaching its gravity well. This means that anything obscured by the planet itself - which is going to be at least half of the orbital track - cannot shoot or even see us.
 
This is a modified version of Plan Civilian, reflecting my different perspective. My diplo ship RFP places more emphasis on diplomating in foreign suns and less on being a liner.

[X] Plan Pathfinder
-[X] If the Navy must support civilian enterprise in order to expand its own capabilities, that is a price we must pay.
-[X] Name it Heimdall, after the lost ship.
-[X] Write-In: a long-duration diplomatic transport, intended for making first-contacts and performing diplomatic missions in distant systems. 2 jump range. Should include necessary amenities, a conference room, and a small storage space. Any weapons should be defensive only. A marine honour guard is desired, if practicable.
-[X] Write-In: a thorough modernisation of the Interstellar Surveyors, particularly their defensive systems, reflecting their role as first-wave scouts into potentially hostile systems. Fittings for two drop tanks should be added. Remaining displacement freed up by the use of modern equipment should go to improved system survey capabilities and to any additional supplies and crew amenities required by the additional range. Finally, the improved class should be designated the Pathfinder, to clarify its role and prevent confusion with the Deep Space Surveyor.
 
Even ignoring the fact that the coherence of direct energy weapons degrade over long distances and a range in the light-minutes would require an immense energy source, and the fact that in this example the targeted ship would have minutes to maneuver in any direction it pleased with no possibility of the enemy having foreknowledge of where to shoot, J-Drives in standard operation do not dump you into empty space, instead they target a gravity well to use as an anchor point.
You make a good point about evasive maneuvers, although the ship moving at non-relativistic speeds would be several orders of magnitudes slower than the incoming laser fire. So hitting is not impossible, especially by weapons designed for said task.
When traveling through J-Space the ship is going in a more or less straight line, from origin to destination, and exits back into realspace at or near the object's jump limit. This is why deep space comets are so useful, they serve as anchor points in otherwise empty parsecs. What this means when jumping to a gas giant in an uncharted system though is that a point on that planet's surface is picked and we just go straight towards it, stopping when approaching its gravity well. This means that anything obscured by the planet itself - which is going to be at least half of the orbital track - cannot shoot or even see us.
However, here you are making the completely opposite interpretation of the facts compared to me. If the jump always ends at a gravity well, that means the jump locations can be predicted by the enemy. And that makes jumping into unexplored or hostile territory much riskier, not less so.

You say our Scouts would be protected by the planets themselves, but exiting jumps near planets makes arriving right next to enemy ships or stations exponentially more likely! Hell, any paranoid/hostile enemy subscribing to the Dark Forest hypothesis would likely build automated defensive stations covering all angles around gravity wells in their system, programmed to immediately fire on and destroy any ship in range not transmitting the correct IFF signal. This is likely exactly how the Junta hit Heimdall, actually.
 
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