Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 said:

I said Heaven. Not the Church.

The Church works for Heaven, not the other way around, and are not always privy to Heaven's moves and decisionmaking.
Note how the last four Sword bearers in canon were Sanya, a Russian agnostic, Murphy a lapsed Catholic, Susan a half-Red vampire, and Butters, a Jew.

Or how Uriel's chosen Sword custodian for Amoracchius and Fidelaccius was Harry Dresden, who is not Christian.
Or conventionally religious.

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What has any of this to do with what I actually said?

Artemis1992 said:

[X] Yes, Detective Murphy 's proven very useful once and if it comes down to it protecting her isn't that much different from protecting Harry

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Invalid vote.

uju32 said:

Invalid vote.

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Right.

[x] Tiffany (Includes the three knights she's been teaching)

Bit late for me, I just took the most voted from the tally and didn't notice it was the prior vote.

Dmol8 said:

What has any of this to do with what I actually said?

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You said, and I quote:

Dmol8 said:

If Haven had put a thumb on the scales the Church would have known more about Father Murphy. As a reminder:

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I pointed out that Heaven does not rely on the Church for information, or for agents.
The Church's ignorance, or at least lack of formal records, of Father Murphy being a wizard does not mean that Heaven shared that ignorance or wo.

And I assure you that priests do not necessarily share all their personal or private information with their superiors.
Just like you have priests today who are known to be gay, but it isnt anywhere in any records.
The Church is not all-knowing as an institution.

Its also entirely possible that the Ordo Malleus simply does not have access to those records, or that the records were destroyed, or that they were Oral Only reports. Like confessions are supposed to be.
Father Murphy might simply have told his bishop, and there were no formal records otherwise.

EDIT
Also note the QM pointing out just how factional the Catholic Church has historically been.
See for example, the old reputation of the Jesuits.

Current tally:

Good night guys.

uju32 said:

I dont really think its a good idea to take Lasciel's sister-daughter Tiffany to the island where Lasciel's host tried to subvert its guardian a century and a half ago.
At least, not as first option. Unfortunate misunderstandings might result.

Also, since we voted to take Murphy, bringing Tiffany would make this their first meeting.
This really shouldnt be the place and time for this, especially since there's a risk of Demonreach identifying Tffany's ancestry in public to everyone, whether or not Tiffany wants to share.

Similarly, it would be exposing the Dragonbloods to Murphy and potentially the Library before they are ready for anything such.

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Basically this. Bringing Tiffany here after what happened before with Lashiel is strange when we don't have to. We may start off on the wrong foot with Demonreach just for being an Infernal, no need to add even more tension.

[X] Plan Party of Six
-[X] A Wizard (Guaranteed to work, but does involve the risks of using the Sight on the Work of the Fallen)
--[X] Harry Dresden
-[X] Write in: Michael Carpenter
-[X] Write In: Lydia
-[X] Write In: Sophia

uju32 said:

You said, and I quote:

I pointed out that Heaven does not rely on the Church for information, or for agents.
The Church's ignorance, or at least lack of formal records, of Father Murphy being a wizard does not mean that Heaven shared that ignorance or wo.

And I assure you that priests do not necessarily share all their personal or private information with their superiors.
Just like you have priests today who are gay, but it isnt anywhere in any records.
The Church is not

Its also entirely possible that the Ordo Malleus simply does not have access to those records, or that the records were destroyed, or that they were Oral Only reports. Like confessions are supposed to be.
Father Murphy might simply have told his bishop, and there were no formal records otherwise.

EDIT
Also note the QM pointing out just how factional the Catholic Church has historically been.
See for example, the old reputation of the Jesuits.

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You are still ignoring my point so let me spell it out for you:

We have a location where a record of what happened to get Father Murphy to go to Chicago can be asked about, and I do not mean the visitation, so we should keep that in mind and use it if we need that question answered.

Also said record might have been destroyed and we should look into whether it was because that can fill us in on what exactly is going on with this plot.

Dmol8 said:

You are still ignoring my point so let me spell it out for you:

We have a location where a record of what happened to get Father Murphy to go to Chicago can be asked about, and I do not mean the visitation, so we should keep that in mind and use it if we need that question answered.

Also said record might have been destroyed and we should look into whether it was because that can fill us in on what exactly is going on with this plot.

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Im genuinely missing your point. The visitation is what happened to get Father Murphy to Chicago; from your quote:

"We have records of a Father John Murphy being invited to finish his seminary studies in the United states as many were in those days. Even the Bishop of Chicago at the time James Duggan followed that path. But then something odd happens in 1867 he receives an invitation to come to Chicago he refuses outright and goes instead to Saint Luis where he established a parish for two years after which there was a short note sent to the Vatican claiming a visitation of the kind that should not be made public. Generally speaking in cases like this where the person reporting the miracle believes that it was not meant for any but themselves, no deeper study is made because there is no need to establish if it is 'worthy of belief' by the laity. You know as well as I that there is a time for keeping such things unspoken Molly. But still all of us are eager to account for what glimpses of the Divine may be given to us so generally there's some record especially since the Bishop of Saint Luis at the time claimed he personally believed in the veracity of the miracle."

"Could it have just been lost?" you ask, mind whirling over the possibilities.

"Or been made lost," he says grimly. "Either way John Murphy came to Chicago that year and was made priest of the Parish of Saint Patrick's, Old Saint Patrick's we call it now, which is unusual in and of itself. He died during the fire of 1871, or he was presumed to, his remains were never found. His family buried an empty coffin. "

"Family?" you prompt surprised.

"His siblings Thomas, Edward and Kate Murphy had by then made the journey over from Ireland with their children and settled in Chicago. Their family is still around today and you know at least one of them."

"Detective Murphy? I'd say small world, but something tells me 'God works in mysterious ways' might be more apt."

"Both can be true at the same time," Father Forthil replies serenely. "I'm sorry I could not be of more help than that, but if you need my help to talk to someone, maybe one of the older members of the family to get them to talk or look for documents I'm open to help. I wouldn't call these kinds of revelations happy, but they are needed just the same and I have some experience softening the blows."

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Thats why he came to Chicago. Prior to it he refused.


Demonreach is not a focus for Father Murphy's pre-Wardenship history to my understanding.
And we shouldnt burn it as a focus out of just curiosity anyway.
If we were that curious, St Patricks would have been a better focus.

The White Council will certainly have records about him, given the importance of the island, but we would have to have a meeting with a Senior Council member.
And no poking that hive while we havent dealt with Peabody there.

uju32 said:

Im genuinely missing your point. The visitation is what happened to get Father Murphy to Chicago; from your quote:

Thats why he came to Chicago. Prior to it he refused.


Demonreach is not a focus for Father Murphy's pre-Wardenship history to my understanding.
And we shouldnt burn it as a focus out of just curiosity anyway.
If we were that curious, St Patricks would have been a better focus.

The White Council will certainly have records about him, given the importance of the island, but we would have to have a meeting with a Senior Council member.
And no poking that hive while we havent dealt with Peabody there.

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Well now at least we're talking on the same topic at least. I'm talking about what made Father Murphy need a visitation to come to Chicago. Or even if the Visitation is what sent him to Chicago specifically.

[X] Plan Party of Six

Dmol8 said:

Well now at least we're talking on the same topic at least. I'm talking about what made Father Murphy need a visitation to come to Chicago. Or even if the Visitation is what sent him to Chicago specifically.

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This was the 1860s. Intercontinental travel for mundane mortals was neither cheap nor safe.
Going from Europe to Chicago could easily take a month or more, by sailing boat, train and horse, and unless you were filthy rich or important, you werent going to be making any family visits over that kind of distance.

Father Murphy was an Irishman, whose family was in Ireland, being asked to move from Western Europe to Middle America.
It might be as simple as that.
Especially since anti-Irish discrimination was a big thing in early and mid-19th century America.

There is currently no indication that there was a supernatural reason for his initial refusal to go to the US.

Current tally:

BronzeTongue said:

Didn't we send our undead carney approved DIY narco sub home after that thing with Iku? So technically we could actually do this if we wanted to be subtle.

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I really do love this quest.

Also Harry became Warden of Demonreach in canon, though granted the circumstances were different. I can't think of any particular advantage in bringing Tiffany over Harry and co but doing so does invite more risk.

[X] Plan Party of Six

Current tally:



If anyone else wants to vote, now is the time.
I think taking Tiffany here is a bad idea, with the potential to blow up into major drama with the Spirit of Demonreach.
Its an unnecessary risk when we have other options.

I'll try to make a final argument before bedtime.

[X] Plan Party of Six
-[X] A Wizard (Guaranteed to work, but does involve the risks of using the Sight on the Work of the Fallen)
--[X] Harry Dresden
-[X] Write in: Michael Carpenter
-[X] Write In: Lydia
-[X] Write In: Sophia

uju32 said:

No I did not.
I cannot see how you read those set of words and came to that conclusion.

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Let me break it down to you:
1) Naagloshii are minimum security prisoners. Therefore, other inmates are more dangerous than naagloshii.
2) WIzards balk at fighting naagloshii (barring type advantage like Listens to the WInd has, and even then they'd hesitate a lot).
3) If other prisoners are more dangerous than naagloshii, and wizards already cannot normally deal with a naagloshii, then wizards cannot deal with other prisoners at all, with the gap in power being even larger than between naagloshii and a wizard.

That's what you are saying. From this, I produce the following:
1) Most inmates are not minimum security ones.
2) If wizards cannot deal with anything but a minimum security prisoner, then wizard combat power is largely irrelevant to the duties of the Warden. Because no matter how good a wizard is (barring original Merlin, who was definitely not a normal wizard), they still won't be good enough.

uju32 said:

No it is not.

Demonreach currently contains over 6,000 prisoners. These entities were put there by wizards brawny enough, smart enough, and skilled enough to engage them, bind them and seal them.
There's a reason that Demonreach was built by a wizard, and not another god or the Fae.

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You don't know if the prisoners were put there by wizards. Unless you have a citation?

And it was built by Merlin, who definitely wasn't a normal wizard.

uju32 said:

Thats just not true.

I have previously posted Word of Butcher explicitly on the Senior Council being deadlocked on appointing/sending a new Warden candidate to the island from among themselves and peers. At no point in time have they worried about a god, or a Fae, or a Yama King, or a Big Foot or a hengeyokai or some other entity slipping in to assume guardianship over the place.

In the cut throat world of Dresdenverse politics, that speaks volumes on its own.

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White Council stupidity, and yes, it was stupidity in this case, is not proof of only White Council affiliated wizards being eligible for Wardenhood. Elaine, Cowl, any of the wizard denarians were all options.

uju32 said:

No she would not. She is not a wizard. All wizardry is magic, but not all magic is wizardry.

Its the same shit that prevents Mikaboshi or Emma-O or Rangda loading up a mortal servant with Investments and sending them to attempt to take control. Or the Red Court training a mortal or dhampir priest and sending him. The same thing that prevents a Fomori sorcerer-lord trying his hand.

Or the Fae Courts just sending mortals aligned to them with some magic blessings.
Or just one of the Forest People showing up and binding the place.

Wizards are not the only people who can use magic.
The fact that by Word of Butcher the Council never worried about some other people trying to appoint a Warden speaks volumes in its own right.


Furthermore? Molly was BORN a wizard, and Awakened as a teenager, and was actively using wizardry.
Exalting burned out/displaced her wizard-tier talent, and she is having to learn Hedge Magic one Path at a time, along with Ancient Sorcery.

Exaltation made her non-eligible for this role. Thats why we're not discussing Molly as a Warden-candidate.
The idea that Exalting would somehow allow an untalented Exalt to replace a wizard in a wizard-centric role is ridiculous on its face. No offence.

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You haven't demonstrated that being a wizard is a requirement.

Sleepy, but I promised to make a brief rundown on why you should vote for Party of Six

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We REALLY do not want Tiffany here.
Demonreach remembers her mother-sister and what she did a century and half ago, and according to Rashid in Turn Coat, the island holds grudges for decades and possibly centuries, which is why he(Rashid) avoids setting foot there.

That means keeping Tiffany away from this place UNTIL we have an understanding that it wont mistake her for her parent, or just gank her on general principles.
And 3x Dragonbloods arent really gonna make any difference against a spirit brawny enough to imprison a Titan.

===
We need Harry along as the Starborn wizard.
The island was built by a wizard, and historically responds to them.
Bringing one along in case it doesnt respond to the Exalt seems wise.

===
Lydia is already involved in the entire issue, since we took her to see the pigeons
She has the same Supernatural Awareness ability that Tiffany has as an Investment. Furthermore, she has Arawn in her head, and the old death god is old enough to have been around when this place was built.

So if we have to talk to Alfred Demonreach, she has something to contribute.

===
Michael should come, because he's a Knight of the Cross, and it allows our Mentor 5 Background to proc. We paid for it for exactly situations like this with people who have never met us before.

Also, Michael bears Amoracchius, which according to Butcher is the same blade as Excalibur. The first Merlin was its custodian for a time, the same guy who built Demonreach.
There's a significant chance that Demonreach will recognize it.

===
Sophia, Molly's clone, has the Rank 5 Gift Secret of Gaia, which is a DC adjuster for both Perception rolls and social rolls with spirits. She alone can find the Grace in question; Secret of Gaia has a range measured in miles.
Especially when combined with Sense The Unnatural, which she also has.

Also, she can fly and swim like Molly Prime.
So if we need to leave the island in a hurry, between Molly Prime and her, we have two fliers to carry everyone away at speed.
And her telepathy allows everyone in the party to keep in contact.

[X] Plan Party of Six

The argument for bringing Harry specifically is convincing. We do need a new Warden candidate in hand, just in case.

Knights would be an even more direct connection to Merlin than Amoracchius, but if we can't bring them without Tiffany, then let's skip them this time. Demonreach is most likely to be in hair trigger mode until they get a Warden.