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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Magnificate said:
1. We've got overruled and rebuked. We're being restricted as players and that's good. But, I'd be nice if we knew why the Council decided on the Monarchists.
3. What are trade codes?
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1. Fundamentally, it's about first contact and aligned goals. A military Junta does not align with the ideas of civilian plutocratic rule.
3. A shorthand for the sort of things a planet may need or produce for trade purposes.

Warer said:
However f monarchists.
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This is very funny to me.
 
[X] An embassy, requiring a few trips by the Janusto deliver enough of a embassy group.
[X] Open trade between our worlds, requiring the construction of trade ships or the releasing of jump technology to civilian yards.
 
We do need to come up with a deployment plan; we'll have to look at available forces and see what we want to earmark and how.
 
Rat King said:
We do need to come up with a deployment plan; we'll have to look at available forces and see what we want to earmark and how.
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Well, we've got 6 Interstellar Cruisers and that's it. We could wait until more are built, but at the moment just two are being produced. As I understand the situation Monarchists are under siege, so we are on the clock.

I think the most important thing we ought to decide is can we afford to use the pretext of negotiations with the Junta to launch surprise attack on them. We can perhaps demand to release our surviving crew members to position ourselves close to their planets and then knockdown whatever orbitals are there.

Alternatively, we operate in the open. Jump into S'taxu, declare our support for Monarchists, harass Junta ships, pick out easy targets, burn towards their mainworld and provide the Monarchists with orbital superiority, perhaps allowing them to rebound a bit.

Whatever we choose, I recommend we call it the [ ] Operation Searing Sun.
 
#1 thing on the deployment plan is that, at least at first, none of our ships will adopt an aggressive stance. We should start with trade or 'trade' being escorted by our cruisers in the sector to supply and stabilize the Monarchy, at least for I'd say a month (deployment cycle of a cruiser for reference) or until things turn hot, whichever is shorter. Once we have an idea of the capabilities of the system, we form the Cruisers into 2 roughly equal squadrons, and use them as harassers when hostilities break out. Jumping in system is something we can do, and if we co-ordinate with Monarchy forces can be used as either a hammer and anvil task grouping, or as a distracting force for splitting the enemy. While the Monarchy should provide their preference of targets, the flotilla leader (or us) get final say.

Any improvements/thoughts?

Edit:
Who boy did I completely misread the current situation. 48 hours without sleep I tell you what.

Edit 2:
So actual plan this time.

Form the cruisers into two squadrons of three. Deploy them immediately to burn towards the Star Port and Capital Orbital zones to secure the areas. Once secured, combine the ships into a single squadron and have them attack a target of opportunity designated by the Monarchs on their return trip to Home system. Repair, refit, rinse repeat as a single squadron.
 
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Good point on the operations time. Do you think we might be able to secure local resupply? Maybe if we seized an asteroid by surprice? Or maybe if we were over mainworld we could be supplied via shuttles?
 
Magnificate said:
I think the most important thing we ought to decide is can we afford to use the pretext of negotiations with the Junta to launch surprise attack on them.
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I don't think we should to this, since developing a reputation for backstabning this early might come back to bite us. We should reserve such trickery for fights we cannot afford to lose, not our first offensive campaign.
 
[X] No, she seems exactly what we need.
[X] An embassy, requiring a few trips by the Janusto deliver enough of a embassy group.
[X] Open trade between our worlds, requiring the construction of trade ships or the releasing of jump technology to civilian yards.
 
[X] Plan Operation Searing Sun
-[X] S'taxu: Assign HSWS Janus and all six Interstellar Cruisers to the operation. Begin ASAP. Jump in near the mainworld, but not so close as to be in range of orbital defences. Reform squadron. Contact the Monarchists and extract concessions from them for our assistance, that should include at least basing rights and tonnage limitations for their fleet. When an agreement is reached, coordinate with the Monarchists for the relief on the mainworld. If feasible, fight for the control of mainworld orbitals. If not feasible, harass trade between inner and outer planets. Prioritize securing means of refuel and resupply, so to minimize the need to travel between S'taxu and Home. Identify and engage targets of opportunity. If it turns out that six cruisers is not enough force for a decisive battle fought with good chances of victory, the strategy will be to protract the conflict so that reinforcements can be built.
--[X] Fleet Commander has full operational control, including retreating to Home. Prioritize conservation of force. HSWS Janus is to serve as a courier for periodic updates on the war.
--[X] Do not engage targets known to be non-combatants. Accept surrenders. Turn over surrendered ships and personnel to the Monarchists so that our forces can be supplemented. Fleet Commander is authorized to bargain with the Junta for the handover of our survivors.
-[X] Xyri: Offer trade relations. Licence jump drives to chosen civilian contractors and insist that for the moment each jump-capable cargo ship needs to be approved.
-[X] Xyri: Offer defensive alliance, but not before news from S'taxu indicates that Home can spare ships to station at Xyri. If feasible, pressure Xyri to agree not to field jump-capable warships.
-[X] Squadron Support Ship: No, she seems exactly what we need.

That's the broad strokes, but I'm open for ideas for modification. Especially when it comes to S'taxu. Notice that I'm not committing Janus to ferrying diplomats, because we don't want one of our six cruisers to be pulled from combat so that we can maintain regular contact with the fleet.
 
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We'll probably want to design a dedicated courier ship next, if we're setting up an embassy.

FTL comms aren't a thing, and we don't want to tie up the Janus on courier work between Home and the embassy.
 
[X] No, she seems exactly what we need.
[X] An embassy, requiring a few trips by the Janusto deliver enough of a embassy group.
[X] Open trade between our worlds, requiring the construction of trade ships or the releasing of jump technology to civilian yards.

I think we should try and play it slow before doing too much in S'Taxu. We have no idea what forces they have, we should try and ferry some supplies to the monarchists and get some intel first.

Mulisa said:
We'll probably want to design a dedicated courier ship next, if we're setting up an embassy.

FTL comms aren't a thing, and we don't want to tie up the Janus on courier work between Home and the embassy.
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If we pick the trade option, trade ships could do double-duty and act as couriers.
 
The physics of the jump drive make dedicated courier ships at our tech level an extravagance bordering on the wasteful, you have to pay for the J-Drive and its fuel no matter what, might as well get as much utility out of the resulting spaceframe as possible.
 
C_Z said:
I think we should try and play it slow before doing too much in S'Taxu. We have no idea what forces they have, we should try and ferry some supplies to the monarchists and get some intel first.
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My rationale for acting ASAP is that the Monarchists are losing. There is no way to know how long they'll hold onto the Capital.
 
Magnificate said:
My rationale for acting ASAP is that the Monarchists are losing. There is no way to know how long they'll hold onto the Capital.
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Sure, but if they lose and we haven't committed a lot, it's not that bad. Meanwhile, if they lose after we send six of our cruisers into a fight where they're outnumbered and the Junta gets ahold of jump drive tech, I don't think it's out of the question that they'd jump some nukes into orbit around Home as payback. Planning a huge military strike when we don't even know who's on what side is insane.
 
C_Z said:
Sure, but if they lose and we haven't committed a lot, it's not that bad. Meanwhile, if they lose after we send six of our cruisers into a fight where they're outnumbered and the Junta gets ahold of jump drive tech, I don't think it's out of the question that they'd jump some nukes into orbit around Home as payback. Planning a huge military strike when we don't even know who's on what side is insane.
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True, but consider that we're not committed until we open fire at someone. If after we jump into S'taxu and notice that Junta has overwhelming power, we could nope out of there or enforce a stalemate until we build more stuff. Not to mention, that if the Junta is building jump-capable ships, then we need to have someone in the system to notice it and counteract it.
 
We really got our hands slapped away, lmao. Between the Dynasts and the Junta I was hoping we'd get access to all the stuff the Junta was offering, but we'll make do.

Here's what I suggest:

[ ] Operation Solar Wind
-[ ] Contents: Squadron will consist of three (3) Interstellar Cruiser class vessels and HSWS Janus.
--[ ] HSWS Janus will carry a civilian diplomatic contingent.
--[ ] The Interstellar Cruisers will carry a token quantity of domestically produced military equipment (body armor, medicine, grenades, etc.) as a gift for the Dynasts. Nothing that requires supply lines for ammunition or long-term training by our own military personnel.
-[ ] Mission: Primary objective: Assess the capabilities and war aims of all involved factions, as well as the origins and present state of the conflict. Secondary objective: Establish friendly diplomatic relations with the Chambrestrong Dynasty's government. Personnel will not have total freedom to make diplomacy, any terms for a military alliance must be relayed to the Citizens Council.
-[ ] Rules of Engagement: Do not fire on any combatants except in self-defense. If combat occurs between local forces, but the squadron is not fired upon, do not engage. If circumstances force return fire, the squadron is to aid Dynasty forces until the conclusion of battle. Accept surrendering combatants, turn over prisoners to Dynasty forces but request an engineering inspection of battle remnants. HSWS Janus is to avoid engagement by whatever means necessary, including Jump retreat if hull loss is likely.
-[ ] Timetable: Naval Date (02y06m01w) is defined to be Solar Wind Date (00y00m00w)
--[ ] (00y00m00w): Begin preparations for departure. Selection and training of diplomatic personnel, requisition and stowing of aid, etc.
--[ ] (00y00m03w): Begin jump to high orbit over S'Taxu-4, outside of orbital defenses.
--[ ] (00y01m00w): Arrive over S'Taxu-4. Make immediate contact with the Dynastic government. Begin talks and intelligence gathering, and offer the provided military aid.
--[ ] (00y01m03w): Wrap up initial talks, Jump back to Home.
--[ ] (00y02m00w): End of Operation Solar Wind.
 
Doubloon said:
Personnel will not have total freedom to make diplomacy, any terms for a military alliance must be relayed to the Citizens Council.
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Nah. The Council has rejected our input, so I don't see the need to go out of our way to consult them this time around.

Overall, I think the Solar Wind might be too conservative. We'd gather intel, but we couldn't act on it fast enough, because our additional Interstellar Cruisers aren't going to be built until 03y08m. Until that time our intel will be obsolete. I think there is no reason not to send all six Cruisers at once. It's likely these guys don't yet have jump drives. We could devote some time in S'taxu for intel gathering, but if at all possible I'd look for a way to enable our ships stationing there rather than jumping back and forth between sectors, because that leaves the Junta with clear windows of opportunity. We could perhaps rotate a few of our ships, but we should maintain permament presence.
 
At the moment our intel is basically nothing. We don't know how many ships the Junta has, we don't know how many ships the Dynasty has, we don't know who controls what except in the vaguest terms.

I really don't want to commit ourselves to any specific agreement until we already have that information. I want to defer the decision to the Citizens Council not because I'm so enthusiastic to do their bidding, but because I want a fig leaf to keep an NPC captain or diplomat from having to make the "Go/No Go" on an alliance without us having any direct input at all.

The exact number of cruisers I'm flexible on but the thought is that we don't reveal our entire hand straight away. I guess it doesn't matter if we show three jump flashes or six jump flashes on a single visit but if we show up every time with six jump flashes, they can be pretty sure we only have six to send.
 
Doubloon said:
At the moment our intel is basically nothing. We don't know how many ships the Junta has, we don't know how many ships the Dynasty has, we don't know who controls what except in the vaguest terms
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The only Intel we really have on their military is that they use missiles with nuclear payloads. How good are our cruisers against such an attack? Is there some way we could retrofit them to better match up against missiles?
 
Doubloon said:
I really don't want to commit ourselves to any specific agreement until we already have that information. I want to defer the decision to the Citizens Council not because I'm so enthusiastic to do their bidding, but because I want a fig leaf to keep an NPC captain or diplomat from having to make the "Go/No Go" on an alliance without us having any direct input at all.
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That's a valid objection. Still, there's no FTL communications. It means we've got to be able to trust our people to make decisions on the ground. We could leave them with detailed instructions and different variants to choose from, if we want to.
Pinniped said:
The only Intel we really have on their military is that they use missiles with nuclear payloads. How good are our cruisers against such an attack? Is there some way we could retrofit them to better match up against missiles?
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That, plus the fact that there's a lot of orbital infrastructure and it might hide static defenses.
 
Magnificate said:
That's a valid objection. Still, there's no FTL communications. It means we've got to be able to trust our people to make decisions on the ground. We could leave them with detailed instructions and different variants to choose from, if we want to.
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You're correct, but the decision at hand isn't tactical or procedural, it's aiming the near future of our entire state. Whether we commit ourselves to a war we don't even know the reasons for, whether we commit ourselves to long term hostility against a fleet of unknown size and power.

Maybe that can be left to a subordinate if we were playing a multi-system, world spanning empire of many planets and vast fleets, but we're not. We have six Jump-capable warships and one planet. We're playing against who we have to assume are peer adversaries, because getting that assumption wrong could an existential threat.

To address your concerns in Searing Sun, it's a strong likelihood the Dynasty is fighting from the back foot. But if they're at risk of total defeat within two months, then not committing ourselves to war against the new hegemon of a foreign system would be, frankly, a very good thing.
 
Doubloon said:
To address your concerns in Searing Sun, it's a strong likelihood the Dynasty is fighting from the back foot. But if they're at risk of total defeat within two months, then not committing ourselves to war against the new hegemon of a foreign system would be, frankly, a very good thing.
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But we're not talking two months. We're talking over a year, because that's how long we'd need to wait for new reinforcements. I'm totally OK for stalling it, but I do believe we must mark our presence so to at least deter Junta from attacks. How about if we phrased it so:

[X] Plan Operation Searing Sun
-[X] S'taxu: Assign HSWS Janus and all six Interstellar Cruisers to the operation. Begin ASAP. Jump in near the mainworld, but not so close as to be in range of orbital defences. Reform squadron. Contact the Monarchists and extract concessions from them for our assistance, that should include at least basing rights and tonnage limitations for their fleet. Demand access to their intel and strategic evaluations, so we know the numbers and capabilities of enemy warships. Overall, the Fleet ought to evaluate two main points:
--[X] Is it feasible to get or conquer the means of refuelling and resupply directly at S'taxu? If at all feasible, the fleet ought to attempt to do so and all six ships should remain. If not, a rotation system needs to considered to refuel and resupply at Home.
--[X] Is it feasible to decisively win an engagement against Junta? If so, go for it. If the outcome is uncertain, aim for relieving the main world and stalemating the civil war until our reinforcements are built. If the Junta is overwhelming, consider harassment tactics or retreat.
--[X] HSWS Janus is to serve as a courier for periodic updates on the war. Fleet Commander has full operational control, including retreating to Home. Prioritize conservation of force and striking at targets of opportunity, especially Junta's shipbuilding capabilities.
--[X] Do not engage targets confirmed to be non-combatants. Accept surrenders. Turn over surrendered ships and personnel to the Monarchists so that our forces can be supplemented. Fleet Commander is authorized to bargain with the Junta for the handover of our survivors.
-[X] Xyri: Offer trade relations. Licence jump drives to chosen civilian contractors and insist that for the moment each jump-capable cargo ship needs to be approved.
-[X] Xyri: Offer defensive alliance, but not before news from S'taxu indicates that Home can spare ships to station at Xyri. If feasible, pressure Xyri to agree not to field jump-capable warships.
-[X] Squadron Support Ship: No, she seems exactly what we need.
 
I think that's better. I like the attempt to wheedle out concessions.

Magnificate said:
But we're not talking two months. We're talking over a year, because that's how long we'd need to wait for new reinforcements.
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I say two months because that's the duration I'm proposing for Solar Wind. It's a plan that hedges our bets, but we don't lose anything by doing so. I still think relying on if-then trees for fundamental diplomacy with unknown powers and tying up the Janus long-term as a courier in a conflict zone is a bad idea.

EDIT: Reread the update, Janus doesn't actually show up again until (02y07m00w). Pushed back the start of the operation by 3 weeks so that the timeline makes sense.

[X] Operation Solar Wind v1.1 + The Rest
-[X] Operation Solar Wind
--[X] Contents: Squadron will consist of three (3) Interstellar Cruiser class vessels and HSWS Janus.
---[X] HSWS Janus will carry a civilian diplomatic contingent.
---[X] The Interstellar Cruisers will carry a token quantity of domestically produced military equipment (body armor, medicine, grenades, etc.) as a gift for the Dynasts. Nothing that requires supply lines for ammunition or long-term training by our own military personnel.
--[X] Mission: Primary objective: Assess the capabilities and war aims of all involved factions, as well as the origins and present state of the conflict. Secondary objective: Establish friendly diplomatic relations with the Chambrestrong Dynasty's government. Personnel will not have total freedom to make diplomacy, any terms for a military alliance must be relayed to the Citizens Council. Personnel will attempt to persuade Dynasty diplomats so any terms offered include basing concessions.
--[X] Rules of Engagement: Do not fire on any combatants except in self-defense. If combat occurs between local forces, but the squadron is not fired upon, do not engage. If circumstances force return fire, the squadron is to aid Dynasty forces until the conclusion of battle. Accept surrendering combatants, turn over prisoners to Dynasty forces but request an engineering inspection of battle remnants. HSWS Janus is to avoid engagement by whatever means necessary, including Jump retreat if hull loss is likely.
--[X] Timetable: Naval Date (02y07m00w) is defined to be Solar Wind Date (00y00m00w)
---[X] (00y00m00w): Begin preparations for departure. Selection and training of diplomatic personnel, requisition and stowing of aid, etc.
---[X] (00y00m03w): Begin jump to high orbit over S'Taxu-4, outside of orbital defenses.
---[X] (00y01m00w): Arrive over S'Taxu-4. Make immediate contact with the Dynastic government. Begin talks and intelligence gathering, and offer the provided military aid.
---[X] (00y01m03w): Wrap up initial talks, Jump back to Home.
---[X] (00y02m00w): End of Operation Solar Wind.
-[X] No, she seems exactly what we need.
-[X] An embassy, requiring a few trips by the Janus to deliver enough of a embassy group.
-[X] Open trade between our worlds, requiring the construction of trade ships or the releasing of jump technology to civilian yards.
 
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