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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Hm hm. Skimming over our main cost sources and tonnage sinks in the scout design, it seems like the main relevant factor that doesn't just scale linearly by ship size is the power plant; presumably this was scaled somehow to the energy demands of our various components, though the details there aren't transparent from the info provided. So @4WheelSword what were the most power-expensive components on that ship?

Basically my thinking is that there's probably certain combinations of choices that will be notably more or less efficient. Are big ships going to be too costly to fit suitably-sized jump drives on? Are small ships going to need loads of extra space to power particle accelerators? Etc. Not sure any of those examples are anywhere close to accurate, obviously, they're just illustrative.
 
[X] Plan: Great White Space Fleet

Taking a purely isolationist / defensive doctrine appears short-sighted. What is the purpose of the Navy other than to project force? Home defense is important, yes, but we need to be capable of supporting and defending possible expansion / offensive missions.

Remaining purely defensive is ceding all initiative to a potential opponent.
 
TLDR:

[X] OPLAN Quarrel-and-Pavise
-[X] By a combined defensive/offensive force.
-[X] Write-in: Medium-class vessels designed with the best in weight-class of defensive armor, well-fueled jump drives, overlapping point-defense systems, and offensive ECM suites, built to fight beyond the visual range both offensively and defensively by detecting, acquiring, and disabling any threat well before either a hostile invader or a foreign power's defensive screen can assemble a response to our well-coordinated fire.
-[X] Particle Accelerators (Long Range, Hard hitting)
-[X] Prototype Torpedoes (Semi-Manoeuvrable, Multi-mission)
-[X] Write-In: variable-energy laser systems intended for both point defense against enemy missiles and close-range combat against both large and small vessels.


Presenting:

[X] OPLAN Quarrel-and-Pavise

Our wars will likely be fought:

[X] By a combined defensive/offensive force.

As such, it is prudent to develop a ship design philosophy that will excel in both types of operation, but, due again to my personal feelings on the matter, with a defensive edge designed to preserve our blessed Homeworld and its people as best as possible in event of any conflict. With this goal in mind, I propose all our ships trend towards:

[X] Write-in: Medium-class vessels designed with the best in weight-class of defensive armor, well-fueled jump drives, overlapping point-defense systems, and offensive ECM suites, built to fight beyond the visual range both offensively and defensively by detecting, acquiring, and disabling any threat well before either a hostile invader or a foreign power's defensive screen can assemble a response to our well-coordinated fire.

Rather than dominating an engagement as the arrogant Menggalists propose, or callously wasting the lives of brave spacers as the bloodthirsty Ciwanan desires, I propose taking the proposal of the Citizen's Council in stride and using it as an opportunity to advance a jump-capable fleet across the board, creating a doctrine of defensive ships that can fluidly respond to threats of all types without relying on weight or numbers while still reaching out to brush away foes from other systems on their own territory.

Given that the Q&P Plan necessitates engagement at range, both to eliminate packs of small ships before their speed and weapons begin to tell and cripple larger vessels as they trundle into battle, our weapons development should focus on the following:

[X] Particle Accelerators (Long Range, Hard hitting)

[X] Prototype Torpedoes (Semi-Manoeuvrable, Multi-mission)

[X] Write-In: variable-energy laser systems intended for both point defense against enemy missiles and close-range combat against both large and small vessels.

With this weapons array, our vessels can target the largest threats at long range to disable their weapons and engines, striking their escorts at varied ranges with multi-mission torpedoes to prevent an effective defense. Should any vessel prove itself against this multipurpose strategy, the close-range variable-energy lasers proposed as our vessels' final line of defense will both defend their crews against retaliatory missile, torpedo, and nuclear threats as they are inbound and bite into the hulls of the kind of small missile boats proposed by members of our own fleet.
 
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Coyote Niff said:
[X] Write-in: Medium-class vessels -snip-
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This looks like a great plan... for the future. I worry that it might run a little high on expense to try and make such... do-it-all ships. There's no use in building these if we can only pump out a handful and to be honest the design sounds a bit out of our ability to produce with having the experience of a whole 3 warship classes and less than a dozen ships ever built under our belt without it having major flaws or being horribly bloated in design and construction.
 
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4WheelSword said:
The biggest power draws on the ship are the M-Drive and the J-Drive. The power plants rating has to match the highest one of those 2. The surveyor is using a rating 6 M-drive so it needs a rating 6 P-plant.
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How do jump drives.... jump ships? Do they jump whatever they have physical contact with or do they have an envelope around them and everything inside they drag with them?
 
[X] Plan: The Navy we have at Home
-[X] At home, as a defensive conflict
-[X] Small, numerous ships that can overwhelm an opponent.
-[X] Particle Accelerators (Long Range, Hard hitting)
 
Maxin_inc said:
How do jump drives.... jump ships? Do they jump whatever they have physical contact with or do they have an envelope around them and everything inside they drag with them?
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So, basically, they use a huge amount of energy to form a 'jump bubble' around the skin of the ship, inflate it using hydrogen, punch a hole into 'jump space', slide the ship into that space, and then punch out the other side a week later.
 
Maxin_inc said:
This looks like a great plan... for the future. I worry that it might run a little high on expense to try and make such... do-it-all ships. There's no use in building these if we can only pump out a handful and to be honest the design sounds a bit out of our ability to produce with having the experience of a whole 3 warship classes under our belt without it having major flaws or being horribly bloated in design and construction.
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That exact concern is why the plan calls for a ship that fits a multirole doctrine! I totally agree things won't necessarily be perfect starting off; just as the Century Series multirole aircraft needed fixing as time and combat showed their weaknesses. The idea is that the Q&P ships' doctrine of overlapping fire and long range action mean that their major flaws trend towards "what happens if we get hit back by something big" (because we have less armor) and "what happens if they get close" (all our guns are longer ranged saving the VPLs). Both of these issues are satisfied by their number (medium ships means easier to build more of, and faster) and their tech specs (ships will have good ECM and PD to prevent nasty return fire and a definite range advantage against both large, slow ships and small, fast packs.) I'm coming at this from an IRL Western aerospace perspective, where you build your fighting craft around a doctrine that plays to the strength of being able to do several things at once, all well, but not great, and that individual planes can "overlap" their skill base to establish superiority and keep it, both in defense and offense.
 
4WheelSword said:
So, basically, they use a huge amount of energy to form a 'jump bubble' around the skin of the ship, inflate it using hydrogen, punch a hole into 'jump space', slide the ship into that space, and then punch out the other side a week later.
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Hmmm... Does that mean Jump-Tug ships are viable? We could potentially build those to deploy cheaper ships without jump drives to other systems.
 
Magnificate said:
Hmmm... Does that mean Jump-Tug ships are viable? We could potentially build those to deploy cheaper ships without jump drives to other systems.
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YES they absolutely do. Trillion Credit Squadron has one of my favourite examples of this, with four 3,000 ton gunboats - which are literally spinal guns with an engine - that are carried into battle aboard a 35,000 ton gunboat tender.
 
[X] Plan: The Navy we have at Home. Missile Version
-[X] At home, as a defensive conflict
-[X] Small, numerous ships that can overwhelm an opponent.
-[X] Missiles (Manoeuvrable, Nuclear Capable)
 
Magnificate said:
We do have some ships, since System Defense Destroyers already exist.

In general, it seems weird to me that "at home, as a defensive conflict" is getting so much traction. Surely, as an aspiring interstellar power, we'll be mining resources and defending trade routes in the future? How are we going to defend these assets if our ships don't have jump capabilities? Or, do we not intented to expand our infrastructure beyond our current system?
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This is very much so in the future, right now and for the foreseeable future all we care about is in one system and thus must be defended as such. When time comes to build trade protection and invasion ships we'll build them then, for now the question is "How do we defend Home from attack".
grimely said:
SPACE JEUNE ECOLE
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With Nukes :3
 
4WheelSword said:
YES they absolutely do. Trillion Credit Squadron has one of my favourite examples of this, with four 3,000 ton gunboats - which are literally spinal guns with an engine - that are carried into battle aboard a 35,000 ton gunboat tender.
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Good this is exactly what I was hoping for, thank you.
Coyote Niff said:
That exact concern is why the plan calls for a ship that fits a multirole doctrine! I totally agree things won't necessarily be perfect starting off; just as the Century Series multirole aircraft needed fixing as time and combat showed their weaknesses.

The idea is that the Q&P ships' doctrine of overlapping fire and long range action mean that their major flaws trend towards "what happens if we get hit back by something big" (because we have less armor) and "what happens if they get close" (all our guns are longer ranged saving the VPLs).

Both of these issues are satisfied by their number (medium ships means easier to build more of, and faster) and their tech specs (ships will have good ECM and PD to prevent nasty return fire and a definite range advantage against both large, slow ships and small, fast packs.)

I'm coming at this from an IRL Western aerospace perspective, where you build your fighting craft around a doctrine that plays to the strength of being able to do several things at once, all well, but not great, and that individual planes can "overlap" their skill base to establish superiority and keep it, both in defense and offense.
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Again none of this is wrong I just don't think we have the experience or industrial base to conduct such a modern construction plan yet. Judging by the proposals from the major factions of our society we don't have the societal or doctrinal capability to do so as well.

We're a new power with a force that is very much green as grass with any combat experience the enlisted or commissioned sailors have most likely comes from a simulator and I'm not sure we've even ever had a major war on Home to draw experience from besides the one plague. Not to mention an oligarchic industrial base that if given the option to make "wonder ships" will most likely fill them with as much bloat as possible like they tried with the scouts leaving us with overpriced flights of fancy that would stand as nothing but an example of what not to do with our next design.
 
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Maxin_inc said:
Good this is exactly what I was hoping for, thank you.

Again none of this is wrong I just don't think we have the experience or industrial base to conduct such a modern construction plan yet. Judging by the proposals from the major factions of our society we don't have the societal or doctrinal capability to do so as well.
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Fair enough! I was hoping to use the Citizens' Council and its push for jump ships and the debate between the Old and New Schools of fleet design to poach resources and make something more fluid and modernized, but you make an excellent point about the pork barrel we'd be subject to. Then again, maybe getting the Council on our side would be a way to cut that off at the hip; forcing the civilian government to tamp down corruption in order to provide them with the jumpy fleet they want??

Idk. I'm still absolutely set on [X] OPLAN Quarrel-and-Pavise.
 
To be honest I'd be tempted to full bore spec into Railguns if we can load them with nuclear payloads.
 
[X] Plan: Great White Space Fleet
[X] OPLAN Quarrel-and-Pavise

Both of those seem like the most viable plans to me, so I'm doing ranked choice voting and choosing both.

A defensive navy is asking to be defeated in detail. If there's no threat of projecting force against another star system, then your planet is going to fall victim to the first enemy who straps a sublight engine package into a kinetic penetrator in your local Oort Cloud, and does the math as to when the resulting penetrator will hit your planet at high enough velocity your defensive fleet has no chance to intercept it.
 
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