Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
Remove ads
Arc 13 Post 14: Sorrows of the Grim Sovereign
  • Threadmarks
    • Sorrows of the Grim Sovereign​

    4rd of February 2007 A.D.

    There's a part of you, not a very loud one but present just the same that wants to sunder those gates and free those behind them. There is a rightness to freeing those who are bound that sings in the deep places of your anima. But you are no mere instrument for those ancient echoes, you are Molly Carpenter and what you want to know is... "Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return."

    It is not the lead hound to answers but Lydia, speaking you realize at once not for herself. "Long has it been since the Pendragon walked the Earth and many are the tales that men told of him. A king for this land, this whole isle? No, Arthur's dream was grander, it was the dream of all great men in those days, the dream of Rome, to be Emperor. A sword he bore which you and I have both seen with our own eyes Excalibur it was and is still, long carried through trial and strife, but at the last despairing of his strength he turned it to the task of conquest."

    "No/Wouldn't work," you and Daniel say, practically at the same time.

    "So he found to his sorrow, but the Red Dragon was not as other men, a fire was in him awakened that had slept since the dawn of the world. So set down Arthur King the sword that would not serve his ends in ending the wickedness and folly of the kings squabbling over the carcass of Rome and vowed he before Powers and Principalities great and small that he would be Emperor in Rome and in the City of Constantine to the East, that he would bring all Christendom under his banner as Augustus Cesar come again. He fought and he won, but weary was he and wearier was his army when news came to Arthur of Mordred's treachery. In Cambo-landa on twisted land, with twisted blade the tale ended true and he was dead by fate, by right by law of land, but he would not allow it. With dying breath called he to the Queen of the Summerlands and in repayment for the good done to her he asked of them to let him live again. That power Summer did not have to turn fate and undo death, but the body they could make live, enchanted in slumber until the stars go out or until some other power could be found to bring him forth, the Pendragon once more. Three ships there came onto my shores, Prydwen and they asked for the Cauldron that Arthur might live, but onto..." Lydia stops, freezes really.

    "Onto the queen who is no more," the first of the hounds speaks as though he had expected the tale to falter. "Was given the gift of prophecy and looked she before the feet of Arthur should he be allowed to walk under the sun a living man again nine times time nine she read his fortunes. In one he was great an good as ever he had been, gracious and honorable as ever he was Excalibur at his side, but in each of the others she saw naught death before him and thus she advised her lord the King to give them not the Cauldron they begged for. For if he did, said she, many would flock to the House of Arawn untimely. Saith the knights, did not Arthur in all of his deeds and all of his travels prove himself wise enough to pick out one thread of gold out of nine times nine? Quarrel there was, strife and the blood of the queen, laid crimson on stone by mortal steel. Though swifter than mind was the hand thus laid, the deed now was done and battle there was. Of all those who came but three escaped. Harried them we did, the last Great Hunt and brought them before the throne of dark eyed Arawn Thus the King ordered them cast from his presence thieves and Cauldron both. From him they had taken that which his power and even the Cauldron could not return so from them he took the fate of their souls until the Last Days."

    "Holy shit," Olivia mutters softly and you cannot bring yourself to even be a little upset at taking the Lord's name in vain.

    "Heroes are not without flaw," Tiffany says. She'd surely know.

    "I... apologize," Lydia breaks the silence. "I'm not sure if I should be upset at my father for not telling me this at myself for even asking, even coming here. but know that I am sorry," she sighs, looking around as though expecting the owls to offer up some wisdom. "I think... they have been there long enough. Now or one day soon I will come and let them pass. "

    "It's OK," Daniel pats her hand awkwardly.

    What do you think should be done?

    [] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    [] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.

    [] Write in

    OOC: So yeah... the reason Arawn did not want to talk about this, not an NDA, he just did not want to relive his wife, whom he deeply loved, being killed in a scuffle as she threw herself between knights blades and him. Her death was as much an accident as such things can be, but it still happened and he reacted as he did to what was a horrific breach of the law of hospitality.
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • As I suspected but didn't say, this is a typical story where the fairies give their enemies the maximum punishment for their crime. I can understand Arwan, but I think they deserve at least a shot at a parole hearing.

    And yes, I don't know whether it's worth doing this now or further expanding our backlog of tasks.
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
     
    Hmm. What a mess.

    DragonParadox said:
    "Onto the queen who is no more," the first of the hounds speaks as though he had expected the tale to falter. "Was given the gift of prophecy and looked she before the feet of Arthur should he be allowed to walk under the sun a living man again nine times time nine she read his fortunes. In one he was great an good as ever he had been, gracious and honorable as ever he was Excalibur at his side, but in each of the others she saw naught death before him and thus she advised her lord the King to give them not the Cauldron they begged for for if he did many would flock to the House of Arawn. Saith the knights, did not Arthur in all of his deeds and all of his travels prove himself wise enough to pick out one thread of gold out of nine times nine?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Hmm. Gold thread. Saw naught but death.

    Solar versus Abyssal Exaltation?

    I think that letting Arthur out and helping him choose the one thread of gold and avoid the eighty threads of death is worth a go. The world's in a parlous enough state to take the risk on getting such an ally.
     
    Last edited:
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days


    its either an ally or a fight.
    or a sligthly sad scene,but i like those odds!
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    Screw it, I think we can figure this out in five posts max. Better than putting it off.
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    Well they did the crime and they've done the time at very least 15 times over now so let's see what they've got to say.
     
    Yog said:
    And yet, there's no 3vidence that mortal necromancy was to be involved at all.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    There is no evidence of it being a plug and play device either.

    Yog said:
    Not what I am disagreeing with. I am vehemently disagreeing with your insistence that Greek heroes are not heroes.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Greek heroes are not superheroes.
    They do great deeds. Thats the definition of Greek heroes, thats the definition of Exalted heroes.
    Morality has nothing to do with this, and often the morality depends on what faction you happen to belong to at the time.

    Degorium said:
    Desus a solar who is so wrapped up in his vanity that he can literally cannot see himself anymore due to his great curse and his initial issues yeah he's definitely a shining example of what you mean oh wait. Hierophant someone so poisoned by their soft heart and curse that they cannot bear the sight of people being in pain otherwise they burst into tears yeah that's definitely example of what you mean. Gorol the last living ancient lintha a people of Yozi worshipers going back to the yozi while in the midst of great curse yeah he's definitely what you mean right.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Among other things, Desus blinded the behemoth Oliphem for impartially guiding ships both human and Lintha.
    The Hierophant lied about the UCS in order to pass a legal bill.
    Thrice Damned Gorol was a Primordial War veteran. He's not Lintha and never was.

    These are not victims. They are Celestial Exalted.
    Some may be tragic heroes perhaps, some are most definitely villains. But they are not puppets, and they bear substantial responsibility for their own choices and actions.
     
    People:

    DragonParadox said:
    "So he found to his sorrow, but the Red Dragon was not as other men, a fire was in him awakened that had slept since the dawn of the world. So set down Arthur King the sword that would not serve his ends in ending the wickedness and folly of the kings squabbling over the carcass of Rome and vowed he before Powers and Principalities great and small that he would be Emperor in Rome and in the City of Constantine to the East, that he would bring all Christendom under his banner as Augustus Cesar come again. He fought and he won, but weary was he and wearier was his army when news came to Arthur of Mordred's treachery. In Cambo-landa on twisted land, with twisted blade the tale ended true and he was dead by fate, by right by law of land, but he would not allow it. With dying breath called he to the Queen of the Summerlands and in repayment for the good done to her he asked of them to let him live again. That power Summer did not have to turn fate and undo death, but the body they could make live, enchanted in slumber until the stars go out or until some other power could be found to bring him forth, the Pendragon once more. Three ships there came onto my shores, Prydwen and they asked for the Cauldron that Arthur might live, but onto..." Lydia stops, freezes really.

    "Onto the queen who is no more," the first of the hounds speaks as though he had expected the tale to falter. "Was given the gift of prophecy and looked she before the feet of Arthur should he be allowed to walk under the sun a living man again nine times time nine she read his fortunes. In one he was great an good as ever he had been, gracious and honorable as ever he was Excalibur at his side, but in each of the others she saw naught death before him and thus she advised her lord the King to give them not the Cauldron they begged for. For if he did, said she, many would flock to the House of Arawn untimely. Saith the knights, did not Arthur in all of his deeds and all of his travels prove himself wise enough to pick out one thread of gold out of nine times nine? Quarrel there was, strife and the blood of the queen, laid crimson on stone by mortal steel. Though swifter than mind was the hand thus laid, the deed now was done and battle there was. Of all those who came but three escaped. Harried them we did, the last Great Hunt and brought them before the throne of dark eyed Arawn Thus the King ordered them cast from his presence thieves and Cauldron both. From him they had taken that which his power and even the Cauldron could not return so from them he took the fate of their souls until the Last Days."
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    this reads like a Solar Exalted version of the Myth of King Arthur. Keep that in mind going forward because those Knights trapped there may recognize something of what Molly is now.
     
    VOTE
    [X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.


    Measure twice, cut once.
    This is not an emergency. Do not take major steps without consulting with other people. One month wont make much, if any difference as opposed to fifteen hundred years.
     
    uju32 said:
    There is no evidence of it being a plug and play device either.


    Greek heroes are not superheroes.
    They do great deeds. Thats the definition of Greek heroes, thats the definition of Exalted heroes.
    Morality has nothing to do with this, and often the morality depends on what faction you happen to belong to at the time.


    Among other things, Desus blinded the behemoth Oliphem for impartially guiding ships both human and Lintha.
    The Hierophant lied about the UCS in order to pass a legal bill.
    Thrice Damned Gorol was a Primordial War veteran. He's not Lintha and never was.

    These are not victims. They are Celestial Exalted.
    Some may be tragic heroes perhaps, some are most definitely villains. But they are not puppets, and they bear substantial responsibility for their own choices and actions.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    What do you mean they were not victims. Heroes can be victims no matter their power. Hercules of victim of circumstances and of Hera. Odysseus a victim of multiple gods and witches throughout his entire Journey. To be victimized does not make you not a hero it does not make you weak it just means sometimes you suffer things that are beyond your power to affect every exalted no matter their power is a victim of the great curse.
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    While I would choose the above whether this is true or not, can anyone confirm if essence usage disrupts future seeing by changing fate in Exalted Vs WoD (or at least in this quest)?
     
    Ivar said:
    I think if you want to continue, you need to define what a hero is. My personal opinion is that a hero is literally their dictionary definition of "a person who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities." You can always say that military heroes aren't heroes because they killed people. But they're still heroes. In short, all superheroes are heroes, but not all heroes are super.

    Like Gordon Freeman is a murderer of hundreds and maybe thousands, a terrorist, an enemy of order and the state. If his enemies weren't literally a fascist regime, he wouldn't be so unequivocally good. However, he stands on a mountain of corpses of people our society considers an enemy, and therefore there are significantly fewer questions about the morality of his actions. Plus, he doesn't kill civilians.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    That's the foundation of the debate. The point that one side is arguing is using the definition of classical hero in the sense of Heroic Epics and Sagas. The kind that goes out to do great and mighty things but either don't align with modern morals or weren't ever morally charged in the first place. A conquering king is a hero to their people and a vile tyrant to their victims, not because the two groups disagree on if looting homes and killing people are bad but because they think it's okay to do to outsiders.

    A solar then must be great, and is probably even good by their own measure. That doesn't mean they have to be by anyone else's.

    The other side of this as I see it is using a post-classical definition where the fundamental narrative role of a hero changed. Where before it was okay to be Gilgamesh or Beowulf, wandering around doing cool stuff for your own benefit and that of your people, now you have to have some sort of greater principles to your actions.

    If we agreed on the definition we wouldn't need to continue.

    Earth-Destroyer said:
    Petty sure the timeline only works for the Great Curse going active before the war over. As the Neverborn where entombed after the war was over by the exalted. And is explicitly the Neverborn that caused the Great Curse, which could only happen after they had died, but before the war was over.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    There are parts of that which don't make sense to me, but reviewing what sources I can find right now it looks like that was the intent. That said, I don't think it makes a difference to the broader point because the great curse is still itself a progressive thing. The genocides definitely happened, and did so when the curse had the least influence it ever did on them.

    They went on to do all the amazing things they did after that despite it, and only fell apart most of an age later when it had encouraged them to move by inches down the left hand path. The curse did matter to what they did and became, but it wasn't the whole of them or the sole source of their flaws.
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    Time to do some good and see what a social exalted can do.
     
    Last edited:
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
     
    We can secure the gates for now and learn more about the situation at our leisure. There is no reason to rush this, and every reason to delay it.

    [X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    There are parts of that which don't make sense to me, but reviewing what sources I can find right now it looks like that was the intent. That said, I don't think it makes a difference to the broader point because the great curse is still itself a progressive thing. The genocides definitely happened, and did so when the curse had the least influence it ever did on them.

    They went on to do all the amazing things they did after that despite it, and only fell apart most of an age later when it had encouraged them to move by inches down the left hand path. The curse did matter to what they did and became, but it wasn't the whole of them or the sole source of their flaws.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Even a newly exalted straight out of character gen can have a limit break, of kill an entire city population. Limit breaks are serious stuff, and many of them can casually cause a solo exalted to be driven cause mass slaughter, either by their own hands, or by inaction, and that for people they like, enemies why would other exalted even bother saving them. Personally I think people really overblown the long term effects of the Great Curse, compared to absolute horror of people just limit breaking regularly.
     
    Degorium said:
    What do you mean they were not victims. Heroes can be victims no matter their power. Hercules of victim of circumstances and of Hera. Odysseus a victim of multiple gods and witches throughout his entire Journey. To be victimized does not make you not a hero it does not make you weak it just means sometimes you suffer things that are beyond your power to affect every exalted no matter their power is a victim of the great curse.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Exactly what I said.
    The Exalted I named all exercised more agency in their lives than the vast majority of mortals that ever lived in Creation.

    Similarly, the fact that Hercules had a divine enemy does not in any way change the fact he was literally born with a silver spoon in his mouth; biological son of the king of gods, born to the wife of a king, raised in a royal household, favored by more gods, blessed with divine investments, trained by divine edict.

    Odysseus was sure as fuck no victim; the misfortune that came his way was more or less of his own making and choices, his and that of his crew.
    Misfortune does not make you blameless, or remove your agency when you are as privileged as these people were.
     
    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    uju32 said:
    Measure twice, cut once.
    This is not an emergency. Do not take major steps without consulting with other people. One month wont make much, if any difference as opposed to fifteen hundred years.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Who would you consult further? It's about his knights, not Arthur himself, so what would (or could) Amoracchius tell us? Especially after Arthur put it down? There are certainly Fae who knew them (and Odin certainly has access to more accurate stories, if he didn't knew them personally). But we can just ask Arawn right now, who shared an island with them, and who is not exactly going to hold back any potential negative things we should know about them.

    Ultimately, any opinion is just going to be given to us from the perspective of either maintaining the status quo or releasing some potential wild cards into it. And that's going to be given based on the views of the person, not some knowledge we don't have.

    And that cost-benefit analysis is ultimately something we will have to decide ourselves anyway, which we can do depending on how the negotiations go.
     
    Last edited:
    Alratan said:
    Hmm. What a mess.



    Hmm. Gold thread. Saw naught but death.

    Solar versus Abyssal Exaltation?

    I think that letting Arthur out and helping him choose the one thread of gold and avoid the eighty threads of death is worth a go. The world's in a parlous enough state to take the risk on getting such an ally.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Gold vs. Bronze factions, rather. This part here:
    DragonParadox said:
    "So he found to his sorrow, but the Red Dragon was not as other men, a fire was in him awakened that had slept since the dawn of the world.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    tells me that he was a dragonblood, probably Fire.

    [X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

    Eternal imprisonment is eternal, and as such, infinite. While guest rights are sacred for a reason, I disagree with such punishments. Punishment is to be rehabilitative, reformative, restorative. This isn't. Not anymore. And Lydia, the heir, is considering clemency. It is her right.
     
    uju32 said:
    Greek heroes are not superheroes.
    They do great deeds. Thats the definition of Greek heroes, thats the definition of Exalted heroes.
    Morality has nothing to do with this, and often the morality depends on what faction you happen to belong to at the time.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Not all heroes are superheroes, yes. Not all superheroes are great examples of morality either.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top