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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Dmol8 said:
OK I'm going to need three things answered here before I vote:

1) Did we already have a conversation about using the crown here maybe interfering with our oath to not use it on God? You know because Arthur here was one of the Knights.

2) Are we sure Arthur can not leave trough some other method? In the myths of Brittany the leader of the Wild Hunt is King Arthur himself, so could we use our Summer Favors to learn more about what happened then?

3) Why are we not asking if Arthur and his loyal servants count as dead or alive for the purposes of the world right now?
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1) IMO, the only way it could come even close to breaking the promise, is if we asked what did White God directly guide Arthur to do, while he still held the sword.
2) Maybe, but why waste another favor on something we could try to do ourselves first, and are not even sure we want to do yet?
3) Why does it matter? It wouldn't be mortal black magic necromancy either way.
 
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Dmol8 said:
2) Are we sure Arthur can not leave trough some other method? In the myths of Brittany the leader of the Wild Hunt is King Arthur himself, so could we use our Summer Favors to learn more about what happened then?
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That might be possible and is, in fact, one of my currently preferred way to resolve the situation. Get them to leave the Cauldron behind, with a promise of making them something to help Arthur instead. We need more information on what exactly is needed.

We have Tiffany with us, who is not very far (4th and 5th dot in a favored Lore) from being able to Restore Life. Catching a soul is easy (prodigy 1, can be done in a couple of minutes). That's one method of true resurrection. A one-time resurrection Splendor is a 3 dot one. That's something we can afford. Basically? We have at least two ways to resurrect and restore Arthur.
 
Vote is tied on whether to ask for more information or just fix up the door.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 22, 2024 at 8:10 AM, finished with 140 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    [X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    -[X] Etiquette excellency
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    [X] Plan investigations
    -[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    --[X] Etiquette excellency
    --[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
    --[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    --[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
    [X] Just take with you what hounds had grown weary of their task
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    -[X] Empathy excellency
    -[X] Stunt: Upon your brow, the marking of your crown manifests, as you stand straighter, the regal bearing not of a princess still seeking her kingdom, but an Empress who found hers: "You say that you fuard them until the turning of the world? Then hear me, o faithful guardians, and know my words to be true : The Wheel Turns. Your duty is coming to an end. So let us enter the prison you guard, so the world can get four more heroes ensuring that the next Age will not be one of Ruin"
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
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Artemis1992 said:
Your average Infernal would have subdued or slain the Sin Eater, instead of stopping at installing a new management.
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Yeah, Im reasonably sure thats bullshit.
The Sin-Eater would be the equivalent of a strong Second Circle or some specialized behemoth.
The average Infernal would go splat trying to tackle something like that without a full Circle of Celestials behind them.

Not to mention that none of the usual force multipliers for Exalted power, from bound demons to First Age technology, exist in this setting. Deliberately so.

Yog said:
The definition of "dead" in a world that explicitly allows true resurrection and time travel is very fuzzy, and I, for one, would explore a lot of options.
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The only people who have managed true resurrection in the Dresden Files setting appear to be exploiting White God shenanigans.

Yog said:
What part of "Arawn's divine artifact" do you interpret as mortal magic?
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Key word divine, as in made by and for the use of gods.
When Nicodemus Archleone stole the knockoff Shroud of Turin, he used in a magic ritual using mortal magic.
It didnt just automatically work for mortals.

Yog said:
I fundamentally disagree.
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Your prerogative. You're just wrong though.
Literally in the first chapter of the Exalted 2E sourcebook, the four classics recommended as reference books are
  • The Bible
  • Journey to The West
  • The Illiad
  • The Odyssey

This isnt a new realization.
Back on the old WW forums, and when RPG dot com was a focus of Exalted discussion, the Greek heroes have been repeatedly raised as one of the models for Exalted by a lot of the writers who created Exalted canon.

For good and for ill.
 
[X] Plan investigations

[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
 
[X] Plan investigations

[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
 
Vote closed, questions it is. No rolls necessary Arawn is just going to tell you.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 22, 2024 at 8:45 AM, finished with 145 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    -[X] Etiquette excellency
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    [X] Plan investigations
    -[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    --[X] Etiquette excellency
    --[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
    --[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    --[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
    [X] Just take with you what hounds had grown weary of their task
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    -[X] Empathy excellency
    -[X] Stunt: Upon your brow, the marking of your crown manifests, as you stand straighter, the regal bearing not of a princess still seeking her kingdom, but an Empress who found hers: "You say that you fuard them until the turning of the world? Then hear me, o faithful guardians, and know my words to be true : The Wheel Turns. Your duty is coming to an end. So let us enter the prison you guard, so the world can get four more heroes ensuring that the next Age will not be one of Ruin"
    [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
Click to expand...
 
Greek hero's are still hero's. They work to overcome their weaknesses and flaws. Example Hercules had massive problems with his rage, but it is never shown as something positive or good, it something he works to overcome, and make amends for.

Someone that would accept their flaws and not work to improve, or at least try and change, is explicitly the kind of person that never exalts.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Greek hero's are still hero's. They work to overcome their weaknesses and flaws. Example Hercules had massive problems with his rage, but it is never shown as something positive or good, it something he works to overcome, and make amends for.

Someone that would accept their flaws and not work to improve, or at least try and change, is explicitly the kind of person that never exalts.
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Most of them didn't see their flaws as flaws, or at least didn't have the same perception of what counted as other people might.

For example, I'd assert that the Bull of the North was a deeply flawed person because he elected to take his issues with the Realm out on innocent people living in nearby cities who he believed deserved it since they were soft. He and his people thought that was a good and correct thing to do.

Heroes grapple with the consequences of their flaws, but relatively few of them have the self awareness to fight against them directly.

I don't understand why this is a surprise or somehow an affront to your idea of what an exalt is. This is basic part of how they rose and fell.

Edit:
Autocorrupt
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Greek hero's are still hero's. They work to overcome their weaknesses and flaws. Example Hercules had massive problems with his rage, but it is never shown as something positive or good, it something he works to overcome, and make amends for.

Someone that would accept their flaws and not work to improve, or at least try and change, is explicitly the kind of person that never exalts.
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This is explicitly wrong.
As evidenced by the entire documented history of the First Age Solar Deliberative, from Desus to the Hierophant who lied about a message from the Unconquered Sun, to Thrice-Damned Gorol the first Solar akuma.

Also, see BronzeTongue.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Most of them didn't see their flaws as flaws, or at least didn't have the same perception of what counted as other people might.

For example, I'd assure the Bull of the North was a deeply flawed person because he elected to take his issues with the Realm out on innocent people living in nearby cities who he believed deserved it since they were soft. He and his people thought that was a good and correct thing to do.

Heroes grapple with the consequences of their flaws, but relatively few of them have the self awareness to fight against them directly.

I don't understand why this is a surprise or somehow an affront to your idea of what an exalt is. This is basic part of how they rose and fell.
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It has to do with the fact the curse of the neverborn is specifically meant to Target those issues that they have to never allow an exalt to come to terms or atone for it.
Hercules in his myth he believes he killed his wife and his children in his rage so he goes before the gods and seeks atonement. A solar Hercules undergoes essentially the same curse that kills his family but then justifies or bullshits or cannot come to any actual methodology to try and fix his anger or rage they just continue on due to the curse.

The Bull of the North is no more flawed than any other human General. The realm practices a policy of violence at the fringes literally the name of the policy cities that cooperate with the realm are actively assisting in that policy. Attacking them is much a strategic decision as it would be a moral one. This is a Bronze Age settings I'm certain I am literally certain that both the Realms policy of violence at the fringes and his own wartime policy about civilian targets would change depending on what the rules of War were. In the period he's in there is no rule of War there's only assets of the enemy and how can we either convert or deprive the enemy of those assets.

In the end it comes down to context I fully believe that exaltations follow the human context in which they emerge in. A person willing to ignore the rules of war that specifically limit civilian casualties specifically limit cruelty towards prisoners of War is not someone who can exalt because that person is not heroic. It comes down to what is right and what is easy and it is easy to ignore the humanity of other people it is easy to justify small-minded hatred it is easy to allow a status quo that benefits you and whatever class class you are to continue on even at the expense of other people it is easy to hoard and never part with knowledge that you have gathered but it is not right it is not heroic.
 
uju32 said:
This is explicitly wrong.
As evidenced by the entire documented history of the First Age Solar Deliberative, from Desus to the Hierophant who lied about a message from the Unconquered Sun, to Thrice-Damned Gorol the first Solar akuma.

Also, see BronzeTongue.
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Desus a solar who is so wrapped up in his vanity that he can literally cannot see himself anymore due to his great curse and his initial issues yeah he's definitely a shining example of what you mean oh wait. Hierophant someone so poisoned by their soft heart and curse that they cannot bear the sight of people being in pain otherwise they burst into tears yeah that's definitely example of what you mean. Gorol the last living ancient lintha a people of Yozi worshipers going back to the yozi while in the midst of great curse yeah he's definitely what you mean right.
 
Degorium said:
In the end it comes down to context I fully believe that exaltations follow the human context in which they emerge in.
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Kinda Disagree. In canon, there was that one Night Caste who killed rich men and pretended to be them while sleeping with their wives. In no age was this ever moral.

Nor does it fit the context of what the Exalted was made to do, Kill the Primordials. It also does not fit the context of who and what Sol is. He isthe God of Excellence and Perfection, choosing people who are exceptional in some way. That is the common element in all his chosen, not morales.

I mean a guy can be a saint and would not get exalted, if he was not exceptional in some way.
 
Degorium said:
It has to do with the fact the curse of the neverborn is specifically meant to Target those issues that they have to never allow an exalt to come to terms or atone for it.
Hercules in his myth he believes he killed his wife and his children in his rage so he goes before the gods and seeks atonement. A solar Hercules undergoes essentially the same curse that kills his family but then justifies or bullshits or cannot come to any actual methodology to try and fix his anger or rage they just continue on due to the curse.

The Bull of the North is no more flawed than any other human General. The realm practices a policy of violence at the fringes literally the name of the policy cities that cooperate with the realm are actively assisting in that policy. Attacking them is much a strategic decision as it would be a moral one. This is a Bronze Age settings I'm certain I am literally certain that both the Realms policy of violence at the fringes and his own wartime policy about civilian targets would change depending on what the rules of War were. In the period he's in there is no rule of War there's only assets of the enemy and how can we either convert or deprive the enemy of those assets.

In the end it comes down to context I fully believe that exaltations follow the human context in which they emerge in. A person willing to ignore the rules of war that specifically limit civilian casualties specifically limit cruelty towards prisoners of War is not someone who can exalt because that person is not heroic. It comes down to what is right and what is easy and it is easy to ignore the humanity of other people it is easy to justify small-minded hatred it is easy to allow a status quo that benefits you and whatever class class you are to continue on even at the expense of other people it is easy to hoard and never part with knowledge that you have gathered but it is not right it is not heroic.
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The exalted committed multiple genocides after they won but before the Yozi had any chance to curse them. Moreover, the reason they didn't notice the great curse was because it was subtle at first. Their behavior didn't radically alter until after millennia of individual pushes towards the worst extremes of what was already part of them.

Your beliefs are something you're projecting here because you've decided the exalts work like Spider-Man when they do not and never have. They're always glorious and often good, not glorious because they're good. Even when they're good they're still human, and their power tends to increase the consequences of their flaws.

I'm not saying they're all monsters, but what they're paragons of is not morality.
 
Yzarc said:
Kinda Disagree. In canon, there was that one Night Caste who killed rich men and pretended to be them while sleeping with their wives. In no age was this ever moral.

Nor does it fit the context of what the Exalted was made to do, Kill the Primordials. It also does not fit the context of who and what Sol is. He isthe God of Excellence and Perfection, choosing people who are exceptional in some way. That is the common element in all his chosen, not morales.

I mean a guy can be a saint and would not get exalted, if he was not exceptional in some way.
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Yeah I still don't know what the deal with Havish was it seemed like you got chosen in a moment where he was turning away from that life and then the story he just never came out about what he was doing other than being a bum and I don't know what to do with that even Lyta and her mind being destroyed via great curse and ancient relics is still more story than what he got he wasn't even particularly a good assassin either so it's like what the fuck.
 
Yzarc said:
I mean a guy can be a saint and would not get exalted, if he was not exceptional in some way.
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I would say that saints are someone exceptional by definition. If everyone is super moral, then there are no saints. But that's probably not what Exaltation is looking for.
 
uju32 said:
Key word divine, as in made by and for the use of gods.
When Nicodemus Archleone stole the knockoff Shroud of Turin, he used in a magic ritual using mortal magic.
It didnt just automatically work for mortals.
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And yet, there's no 3vidence that mortal necromancy was to be involved at all.

uju32 said:
Your prerogative. You're just wrong though.
Literally in the first chapter of the Exalted 2E sourcebook, the four classics recommended as reference books are
  • The Bible
  • Journey to The West
  • The Illiad
  • The Odyssey

This isnt a new realization.
Back on the old WW forums, and when RPG dot com was a focus of Exalted discussion, the Greek heroes have been repeatedly raised as one of the models for Exalted by a lot of the writers who created Exalted canon.

For good and for ill.
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Not what I am disagreeing with. I am vehemently disagreeing with your insistence that Greek heroes are not heroes.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The exalted committed multiple genocides after they won but before the Yozi had any chance to curse them. Moreover, the reason they didn't notice the great curse was because it was subtle at first. Their behavior didn't radically alter until after millennia of individual pushes towards the worst extremes of what was already part of them.

Your beliefs are something you're projecting here because you've decided the exalts work like Spider-Man when they do not and never have. They're always glorious and often good, not glorious because they're good. Even when they're good they're still human, and their power tends to increase the consequences of their flaws.

I'm not saying they're all monsters, but what they're paragons of is not morality.
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What do you mean they were cursed the second the war was over. If you believe the curses from the neverborn they got cursed before the war was over the first time a primordial died is when they got cursed. On the genocide portion do you have anything because you cited that before and I don't know where you're getting it from. The only other non directly connected to primordial race that actually gets into a fight with the exalted at very least in second edition are the lintha and they still exist somehow.
 
Degorium said:
On the genocide portion do you have anything because you cited that before and I don't know where you're getting it from.
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IN both 2E/3E many races stayed loyal to the Yozi. After the war, there were no race that was loyal to the Yozi, outside of the Lythia and a few broken and surviving members. Key word being Survivors.
 
Degorium said:
What do you mean they were cursed the second the war was over. If you believe the curses from the neverborn they got cursed before the war was over the first time a primordial died is when they got cursed. On the genocide portion do you have anything because you cited that before and I don't know where you're getting it from. The only other non directly connected to primordial race that actually gets into a fight with the exalted at very least in second edition are the lintha and they still exist somehow.
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I cited it from the wiki, it's in the posts you're talking about where I brought it up. I can't find a timing source right now, but the point about it being subtle stands either way. The exalts didn't go nuts one day, every limit break took them a little further down a path they'd already started on and plenty were assholes even independent of what their trigger was. That's why they didn't notice until it was too late.

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The prehuman races who worshipped the Primordials, including the Lintha, Alaun, and Uddshua, were driven to the brink of extinction or beyond by the genocidal victors. The Genesis escaped genocide only by fleeing into the Wyld, despite their neutrality. The surviving older races, the Mountain Folk (Jadeborn), Dragon Kings, and Pelagials, slowly fell into obscurity through senescence or mystic oaths imposed by the Exalted
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Cite

The exalts crippled the few species they didn't genocide in the immediate aftermath of the war.
 
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I think if you want to continue, you need to define what a hero is. My personal opinion is that a hero is literally their dictionary definition of "a person who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities." You can always say that military heroes aren't heroes because they killed people. But they're still heroes. In short, all superheroes are heroes, but not all heroes are super.

Like Gordon Freeman is a murderer of hundreds and maybe thousands, a terrorist, an enemy of order and the state. If his enemies weren't literally a fascist regime, he wouldn't be so unequivocally good. However, he stands on a mountain of corpses of people our society considers an enemy, and therefore there are significantly fewer questions about the morality of his actions. Plus, he doesn't kill civilians.
 
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Petty sure the timeline only works for the Great Curse going active before the war over. As the Neverborn where entombed after the war was over by the exalted. And is explicitly the Neverborn that caused the Great Curse, which could only happen after they had died, but before the war was over.
 
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