Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)

What should your focus for the rest of the Quest be?

  • Mercy (Diplomacy and Expansion)

    Votes: 210 74.7%

  • Ruthlessness (Kick the Duchy in the Balls)

    Votes: 66 23.5%

  • Thule (Yeeni Handholding and Piscarian Cuddling)

    Votes: 107 38.1%
  • Total voters
    281
Voting is open
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Alectai said:
A starving, high mortality, high crime, low wealth and zero mobility location should be population negative and needing constant shipments to just stay afloat. Somehow, not only is it population positive, but it's aggressively so to the point where they can export a functionally limitless supply of warm bodies across the galaxy on top of everything else they do even with their massive attrition and "One delayed shipment from a mass famine" logistics.
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The worst part is that 'One delay from famine' shouldn't even be a thing. The kind of power generation you need to keep a Hive World running and not broil itself to death would trivially sustain hydroponics/aquaponics/good-ol' soil-in-tray-ponics under grow lamps1​, alongside any half-decent sewage-to-fertilizer treatment. The only significant outflows should be from warm bodies emigrating/being conscripted and taking their CHONPS2​ out of the system--that can be imported from Agri-Worlds in the form of food, but could just as well be mined or scooped directly and processed into fertilizer.

A Hive-world under siege shouldn't be facing famine this side of a century, and the fact that they routinely do is entirely down to Imperial-style mismanagement and coup-proofing.

1​To say nothing of Single Cell Protein or other forms of cellular agriculture.
2​Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Sulfur. The most common elements in living organisms.
 
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RaptorusMaximus said:
Yeah? I'm going into this assuming we're gonna take the 3 agri worlds already supplying Vox Primus with food in the same operation where we kick off the Boogaloo on Vox Primus, so our existing civilian infrastructure can take over the food shipments, picking up the slack for whatever elements of the Free Duchy Civilian Trader vessels which are managing the current supply operations are destroyed or flee instead of being taken by our navy.

Like we don't have to actively micromanage the entirety of our nation's civilian shipping.
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We're talking about shipping food for a population an order of magnitude greater than anything we have, and most of our planets are food indendepent.

Quite simply, we need a plan, because just existing civilian infrastructure isn't going to cut it.

Hence my proposal of delegating Andromedas and choirs to the civilian market, so as to speed up voyages and increase capacity.

Also, the Irrita might be really willing to help.
HeroCooky said:
A few more minutes passed as the Irrita seemed to ponder before returning with their own set of lights flashing from the topmost portion of their body alongside puffs of scent from the flowers on their 'head.' "The idea that starvation is inevitable instead of a preventable, or something we, or another, should, or would use for gain, is alarming to our people, as we have never encountered the concept in our own cultures or our stories about alien cultures. To starve one of our own is a concept and act of savage cruelty beyond comparison. To aid the starving was no question of morality but of logistics."
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10ebbor10 said:
We're talking about shipping food for a population an order of magnitude greater than anything we have, and most of our planets are food indendepent.

Quite simply, we need a plan, because just existing civilian infrastructure isn't going to cut it.

Hence my proposal of delegating Andromedas and choirs to the civilian market, so as to speed up voyages and increase capacity.
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Yep, food independent, as we're at least taking small strides towards ensuring for Voxx Primus and have been able to partially/largely do for the Voxx Primus rebels.
 
@HeroCooky how much of Vox Primus' population could we fit inside a 15-action orbital infrastructure housing project? And would it give any dev level bonuses?

10ebbor10 said:
We're talking about shipping food for a population an order of magnitude greater than anything we have, and most of our planets are food indendepent.
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The Imperials are managing it. Why would our planning not include either subverting or capturing as much of the currently extant supply infrastructure as possible so that we have minimal disruption of food to Vox Primus?

Also, we can probably just dump actions into a 'boost the tonnage of our civilian economy' write in if it turns out to be necessary, building Andromedas specifically for the civilian market would be a drop in the bucket at the scale we're working on. There are undoubtedly thousands of civilian freighters working within our borders, we'd need to provide hundreds of Andromedas to make any kind of meaningful impact on increasing travel efficiency.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
The Imperials are managing it. Why would our planning not include either subverting or capturing as much of the currently extant supply infrastructure as possible so that we have minimal disruption of food to Vox Primus?
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Because that means you're requiring on the perfect, simultanous takeover of 4 planets and numerous ships, and it's reasonable to have a fallback plan when one of those aspects inevitably fails a bit?

There's also the fact that Imperial Agriworlds rely on way less than ideal conditions to produce food in unsustainable, horrific conditions, so we're likely to see a drop in production anyway while we unfuck that.

And then there's the possibility of a population explosion, which we have to prepare for anyway. Hoping that the demographic transition is already past is not a feasible plan.

RaptorusMaximus said:
Also, we can probably just dump actions into a 'boost the tonnage of our civilian economy' write in if it turns out to be necessary, building Andromedas specifically for the civilian market would be a drop in the bucket at the scale we're working on. There are undoubtedly thousands of civilian freighters working within our borders, we'd need to provide hundreds of Andromedas to make any kind of meaningful impact on increasing travel efficiency.
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That's why the second part of the plan aimed to enoourage a civilian scale up towards a handful of heavy freighters over many, lesser smaller craft.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
Because that means you're requiring on the perfect, simultanous takeover of 4 planets and numerous ships, and it's reasonable to have a fallback plan when one of those aspects inevitably fails a bit?

There's also the fact that Imperial Agriworlds rely on way less than ideal conditions to produce food in unsustainable, horrific conditions, so we're likely to see a drop in production anyway while we unfuck that.
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Or, please respond to my actual argument, we can combine the takeover of those 4 planets with the existing agricultural infrastructure that, as a matter of course and our choices, the revolution is building ON VOXX PRIMUS.
 
The Laurent said:
Or, please respond to my actual argument, we can combine the takeover of those 4 planets with the existing agricultural infrastructure that, as a matter of course and our choices, the revolution is building ON VOXX PRIMUS.
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Let's return to the start of this tangent.

10ebbor10 said:
If we don't shuttle people in a single turn, we also have to spend however much actions are needed to get them food where they currently area, or build the freighters to get them food.
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The possibility of local production came pre-acknowledged.
The entire point of the original comment was that 30 actions for an orbital ring was an underestimate, as it was 30 actions + however much is needed to transport the people + Howeve rmuch is needed to transport food + however much is needed for local production
 
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RaptorusMaximus said:
@HeroCooky how much of Vox Primus' population could we fit inside a 15-action orbital infrastructure housing project?
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Shit, I dunno? 200~300 billion?


Also, as a disclaimer, I am operating under the assumption that half of Voxx Primus will die even if you have the perfect solution due to hostile Action by the Free Duchy going 5/5 Dogmatic tbh. They aren't going to let you grab their primary recruitment world from them without making it hurt.
RaptorusMaximus said:
There are undoubtedly thousands of civilian freighters
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Try low hundreds. You only have two ISCs focused on carrying stuff, and are not industrialized enough for Warp Ships to be anything but a group effort of the rich.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Let's return to the start of this tangent.



The possibility of local production came pre-acknowledged.
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Ah then, fair enough. Sorry I missed that. We'll see then. We might not need too many actions, because I can probably gather that the locals with the resistance will probably increase agriculture as their population increases to maintain their standard of living. Same with making more weapons as they get larger.

The jump of course is when they go from a few billion or tens of billions or maybe at most high tens of billions to, well, 700 billion. But hopefully we can soften the blow of that with those Agri-Worlds and other aid. Irrita really are a good idea, I'll say, which is why I added it in.
 
HeroCooky said:
Also, as a disclaimer, I am operating under the assumption that half of Voxx Primus will die even if you have the perfect solution due to hostile Action by the Free Duchy going 5/5 Dogmatic tbh. They aren't going to let you grab their primary recruitment world from them without making it hurt.
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Well, that's considerably more manageable, thanks Cooky 👍
 
Given that maybe half the population will die regardless of how we take Voxx that kind of solves the food problem somewhat.

Anyone who doesn't make it becomes part of the food solution.
 
IronBig21 said:
Given that maybe half the population will die regardless of how we take Voxx that kind of solves the food problem somewhat.

Anyone who doesn't make it becomes part of the food solution.
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Ah...corpse starch. We meet again.

More seriously, a couple of planks for consideration:

[]Post a design competition for a set of modular hydroponic or aquaponic kits, for the growing of food crops in hyperurbanized/fully contained environments. Select for ease of mass production, ease of assembly in a variety of spaces, and flatpacking for interstellar transport.

[]Request the Voxx revolution to scout out local infrastructure if practical. Emphasis on power production, water treatment, and sewage treatment, if any. Using this intelligence, we will develop the plans and machinery to retrofit this infrastructure to support local interior agriculture using the above kits.
 
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We can design heavy freighters that can haul 300M passengers per trip and 2 actions gets us 3 of them. Those ships should be able to make multipe trips per year from the hive to the agriworld in the same system so we can move billions to the agri worlds with only a few actions in the first year.
The same ships can haul food on the return voyage.
We can set up a education system among the parts of the underhive we control so we have engineers, agriculture experts and everything else needed to maintain the food production.
All of this are not complete solutions to the problem but as the proposed plan indicated, we need to work at it in multiple ways and hope the combination works.
There are other options like turning some of the parks and gardens of the upper hives into farmland.
and we should design and build a light freighter to help the other world of the Van Zandt Free Dutchy
 
a bit late so i kind of skimmed what everyone was saying but I'm just gonna post my thoughts on the food problem

so the sewers on a hive city is full of human waste, corpses, a bunch of chemicals & toxins, etc. assuming certain sections of the plumbing is large enough (should be to handle that amount of waste) effectively be entire ecosystems, what if we use our cloning tech and some genetic modifications to create an organism to filter out toxins?

could we create a species of bivalves that filter the particulate wastes of humans to sustain themselves, use the metals to help build their shells? any thing they can't use can we incased with aragonite, conchiolin and the metals they will be using to encase them as pearls. people can heat shellfish so there's that as well.

we can then introduce certain aquatic edible plants along the bivalves , maybe some filter feeding plankton (& zooplankton) along with engineered fishes to eat them and keep the population in check, then have our infiltrators manage the fish population by eating them? some biomass can be left to make piles large enough to be small islands in massive sewer pipes, where plants withe roots could keep the new soil together where farming (that isn't underwater) possible; i don't know if hunting is a good idea but with how hivers are probably eating rats and whatever they can get already . . .

turning the deep sewers into an aquaponics project seems to handle the food problem
 
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*name* said:
a bit late so i kind of skimmed what everyone was saying but I'm just gonna post my thoughts on the food problem
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It's not a bad idea, especially if it turns out there's no infrastructure for sewage treatment at all. Biological solutions can definitely scale with little industrial investment, and they can be seeded and put to use before the revolution kicks off in earnest.

Although for heavy metal uptake specifically I do think bacteria scale a lot faster, ala here.
 
The Laurent said:
[] [Voxx Primuse Afterplan] Plan: A Balanced Breakfast
-[] First, we must begin to create and expand space stations. What was done with Defense Stations, such at a level beyond belief, can be done with human habitation. Yet this alone will not be enough.
-[] Second, we must truly and fully continue upon completion the research of even further crops capable of growing in Hives (or Ex-Hives), and their integration. This Hive World must become increasingly self-sufficient, even if this means that space must be cleared which will necessitate decreases in the total population (see below). Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[ ] Means: Speak with the Irritia, you have a burgeoning humanitarian problem that's likely to pop, and you want to take the steps needed to minimize the issues. Do they have any insights on very, very high density food growing? Or barring that, how to produce large amounts of food in space?
-[] Third, emmigration is not a possibility but a necessity. While we cannot possibly house the whole of the population, depopulating Voxx Primus, even a drop of one, two, or perhaps at a very distant strength three hundred billion in the system--whether on planets or whether on new space stations--could be transformative. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: While we are here at a Constitutional Convention, create modest (definitely compared to SDF and SAG budget concerns) requirements to invest in expanded housing, and the creation of infrastructure to allow to both better house those who are already there but also be ready for immigration if need be.
-[] Fourth, we need to encourage safe and humane birth-limits, tied specifically to capacity to raise children to a good standard of living, and coinciding with a propaganda campaign to encourage a different mindset of concentrating resources and efforts, at least until the population is under control. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[] Means: As a provision now, while the larger campaign waits, make birth control readily available to the Star Child population on Voxx Primus, and begin education in Family Planning, and specifically the drive to have kids only when you can make sure they will have a good (by whatever is standard atm) quality of living. Etc, etc. Sewing small seeds for later situations, and hopefully making sure those who are born are loved, planned for, and more liable not to die in childhood.
-[] Fifth, we must remember that through the Star Child all things are possible, so jot that down. Through prayer to the Star Child for deliverence, and the study of such Melodies as Health, Compassion, the Home, and Family (which may aid in the 4th if used right), and the performance of unique Songs... we may yet bring salvation unto not just seven-hundred billion, but to the trillions that will yet live under the light of the Five. This, TOGETHER, will suffice!
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Is this the most recent plan? It seems like there's been some room for updates. I think the only three things I really want to add right now are asking the Irrita for help terraforming, the Mashan/Shipwright's if they want a few billion ex-hiveworlders and to put something in about preparing our own infastructure for the shock.
 
DecaffeinatedOwl said:
It's not a bad idea, especially if it turns out there's no infrastructure for sewage treatment at all. Biological solutions can definitely scale with little industrial investment, and they can be seeded and put to use before the revolution kicks off in earnest.

Although for heavy metal uptake specifically I do think bacteria scale a lot faster, ala here.
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another microscopic organism filter feeders like bivalves and zooplankton can sustain themselves on? YES
 
*name* said:
another microscopic organism filter feeders like bivalves and zooplankton can sustain themselves on? YES
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One problem that presents itself here is that there's no obvious energy source to sustain the ecology just in the sewage itself (although digesting corpses might go a little ways.) Sustaining phytoplankton would need grow lights, which might be doable for lakes or storage tanks where pipes empty out.

Alternatively, depending on the exact mix of the sewage it might be possible to sustain chemoautotrophs, though I think that solution wouldn't scale to a substantial fraction of the hive's needs.
 
Knowing how bad hives are described at times i would not be suprised if the heavy metals being dumped at the factory end up mixed into the sewage more often then not as why spend money separating the two?
 
*sigh*

There are a number of ways to introduce energy to a biological system. The most suitable for this approach would probably be bubbling in methane or hydrogen gas, to provide the energy for methanotrophs or hydrogen-oxidizers to upcycle the waste to more complex sugars. You can directly generate hydrogen with electrolysis, then use something like the sabatier process to directly convert carbon dioxide & hydrogen into methane and water. There's companies working on developing this stuff now, and I've talked to them. One of the biggest problems is contamination, another is energy efficiency. Using algae with grow-lights is worse efficiency actually in terms of biomass per watt, but that's primarily because photobioreactors are impossible to design properly. It turns out plants evolved for a reason, and that reason is it's the most efficient way to turn light into reduced carbon.

That being said, let's not get too deep into the scientific weeds on this. We're here to brainstorm civilizational efforts in a sci-fi setting. I do think it's reasonable for us to have some more research on making Voxx self-sufficient, but I don't think the purpose of the quest is to brainstorm a ton of science on how to make it happen exactly. We can wave our hands and go 'future science'.
 
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A thought.

It is my understanding that a typical hive-city is comprised of the following:
-The underhive at the lowest levels - essentially an unpoliced and unserviced no-man's-land that has been abandoned by official authorities. Low population, because scarce resources.
-The lower hive above it - an industrial hellscape where the majority of the population resides, and is engaged in back-breaking blue collar work.
-The upper hive above it - the place where the white collar work gets done.
-The spire at the top - where the nobility and their servants live, with the former benefitting from insanely luxurious conditions. Very low population, relative to living space.

With that in mind, I figure we could significantly improve the general survivability of Vox by:
-Converting the hive-cities' spires into habitation and food production centers for the masses.
-Organizing reclaiming efforts to the underhives to turn into places that are as "safe" to live in as the lower hives.
-Converting the industrial output of the lower hives into civilian and agricultural production.

This isn't a substitute for "get fifty billion people to emigrate", but I figure it ought to help.
 
Will change elements as needed, but posting this here.

[X] [Voxx Primuse Afterplan] Plan: A Balanced Breakfast
-[X] First, we must begin to create and expand space stations. What was done with Defense Stations, such at a level beyond belief, can be done with human habitation. Yet this alone will not be enough.
-[X] Second, we must truly and fully continue upon completion the research of even further crops capable of growing in Hives (or Ex-Hives), and their integration. This Hive World must become increasingly self-sufficient, even if this means that space must be cleared which will necessitate decreases in the total population (see below). Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[X] Means: Speak with the Irritia, you have a burgeoning humanitarian problem that's likely to pop, and you want to take the steps needed to minimize the issues. Do they have any insights on very, very high density food growing? Or barring that, how to produce large amounts of food in space?
-[X] Third, emmigration is not a possibility but a necessity. While we cannot possibly house the whole of the population, depopulating Voxx Primus, even a drop of one, two, or perhaps at a very distant strength three hundred billion in the system--whether on planets or whether on new space stations--could be transformative. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[X] Means: While we are here at a Constitutional Convention, create modest (definitely compared to SDF and SAG budget concerns) requirements to invest in expanded housing, and the creation of infrastructure to allow to both better house those who are already there but also be ready for immigration if need be.
-[X] Fourth, we need to encourage safe and humane birth-limits, tied specifically to capacity to raise children to a good standard of living, and coinciding with a propaganda campaign to encourage a different mindset of concentrating resources and efforts, at least until the population is under control. Yet this alone will not be enough.
--[X] Means: As a provision now, while the larger campaign waits, make birth control readily available to the Star Child population on Voxx Primus, and begin education in Family Planning, and specifically the drive to have kids only when you can make sure they will have a good (by whatever is standard atm) quality of living. Etc, etc. Sewing small seeds for later situations, and hopefully making sure those who are born are loved, planned for, and more liable not to die in childhood.
-[X] Fifth, we must remember that through the Star Child all things are possible, so jot that down. Through prayer to the Star Child for deliverence, and the study of such Melodies as Health, Compassion, the Home, and Family (which may aid in the 4th if used right), and the performance of unique Songs... we may yet bring salvation unto not just seven-hundred billion, but to the trillions that will yet live under the light of the Five. This, TOGETHER, will suffice!
 
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