Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I get that they're connected still to the soul of Molly in this version but they're not so connected that killing them would negatively affect Molly Beyond "oh no someone just killed with my Clones I'll remake it over lunch and I better make sure their body gets destroyed as well as kill whoever did that. "

You do know that they cost us one permanent level of essence every time they die?

Even for one year and a day, they're very much not disposable tools, way too costly to lose, that amount of time is longer than the entire quest so far.

Edit:

Especially as we just reached essence 4, which means losing one level would get our green nimbus flare from the full version we just got back to the nerfed one once again, among other things.

Edit2:

Compared to that cost, Bronze's version is downright nothing, is what I mean.
 
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You do know that, at least for the canon version, they cost use one permanent level of essence every time they die?

Even for one year and a day, they're very much not disposable tools, way too costly to lose, that amount of time is longer than the entire quest so far.
It only cost us that level of essence if we die not the Clone. We get sent screaming as a red wind to consume a clone and lose one Essence level but still live as an exalted. If you wanted to as a Infernal of essence 3 or more you could literally just take 3 of them to a vampire Den armed with shotguns, Molotovs and body armor and then just you have three people with shotguns versus a small group of neonates which anyone who's ever played as a vampire would tell you kind of bad three people with shotguns in close range is not good. If one of the vampires uses Celerity to Paste one of your clones that's unfortunate you'll make it again once you get home and then you walk in with your own shotgun and mop up whichever vampires left having spent the significant portion of their blood pool on killing disposable clones with your Firearms Excellency and something like green sun Nimbus or similar charms.
 
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It only cost us that level of essence if we die not the Clone. We get sent screaming as a red wind to consume a clone and lose one Essence level but still live as an exalted. If you wanted to as a Infernal of essence 3 or more you could literally just take 3 of them to a vampire Den armed with shotguns, Molotovs and body armor and then just you have three people with shotguns versus a small group of neonates which anyone who's ever played as a vampire would tell you kind of bad three people with shotguns in close range is not good. If one of the vampires uses Celerity to Paste one of your clones that's unfortunate you'll make it again once you get home and then you walk in with your own shotgun and mop up whichever vampires left having spent the significant portion of their blood pool on killing disposable clones with your Firearms Excellency and something like green sun Nimbus or similar charms.

Ok, granting the fact that they don't cost that, just checked.

Doesn't mean they're going to be treated as disposable in quest, Molly is not the kind of person to not get attached.

People don't want them for fights, they want them for utility.

And I know that Bronzetongue already explained that numbing a small part of us is not supposed to be the horrible thing you seem to think it is, but just a temporary problem that we can remove quickly.
 
Ok, granting the fact that they don't cost that, just checked.

Doesn't mean they're going to be treated as disposable in quest, Molly is not the kind of person to not get attached.

People don't want them for fights, they want them for utility.

And I know that Bronzetongue already explained that numbing a small part of us is not supposed to be the horrible thing you seem to think it is, but just a temporary problem that we can remove quickly.
I get that that the numbing is not terrible. As I say it's actually a really good charm it's just not what I would look for in a replacement for splintered Gale and considering I voted for splintered Gale I'm only left with one conclusion ya know. That's not to suggest Molly would treat them as disposable but they're just not meant to be structurally important to an infernal at all and to be frank anything that makes them so is going to be too far departure from the main charm for me to say it's a good replacement rather than being its own charm.
 
I get that that the numbing is not terrible. As I say it's actually a really good charm it's just not what I would look for in a replacement for splintered Gale and considering I voted for splintered Gale I'm only left with one conclusion ya know. That's not to suggest Molly would treat them as disposable but they're just not meant to be structurally important to an infernal at all and to be frank anything that makes them so is going to be too far departure from the main charm for me to say it's a good replacement rather than being its own charm.

I mean, part of the reason we are doing that is that there were people who didn't want the charm as is, so it's no real surprise that the alternatives are not exactly the same charm, that's the point....

Plus, even for the canon version, there have been talk of the clones being third souls equivalent anyway, Bronze is just making it non ambigous.
 
[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] Akuma and Fomori version
[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] Akuma and Fomori version 2.0
Splintered Gale Incarnation (•••••) [Akuma version 2.0]
The Infernal flays herself apart, creating duplicates of herself.
System: The Infernal spends 5 Essence and screams, issuing forth a crimson gale that resolves into a perfect copy of herself. This clone comes into the world as an Akuma of the Infernal, precisely aware of what it is, and in possession of the same personality and memories as the Infernal. It has the same Traits as the Infernal, but is completely mortal in all other aspects, capable of using only any mortal magic and martial arts that the Infernal knows. It has (Essence x10 Bonus points) to purchase merits and Fomori Mutations at one dot per point.

Alternately, if the Infernal possesses a working uterus, she can use this Charm to impregnate herself. This parthenogenetic child will grow up to be a perfect physical duplicate of the Infernal, but is otherwise a normal human being.

The Infernal can have up to her Essence rating in clones alive and active at once. By spending 1 Essence, she can cause a clone within her presence to unravel back into crimson wind which she absorbs, granting her all of the memories the clone accumulated during its existence. If the Infernal wishes, she may re-create specific absorbed clones in the future when using Splintered Gale Incarnation.

If the Infernal should ever die while any of her clones are abroad in the world, her body dissolves into a screaming wind that streams across the world and pours itself into the nearest clone. This destroys the clone's memories and identity as the Infernal takes over its body. Reincarnating in this fashion reduces the number of clones the Infernal can make by 1 for a Year and a Day. If this would reduce the number of clones she can make to 0, then reincarnation is impossible.
I modified the charm to not loose Essence but a clone slot for a year and a day. Hope this helps?

[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v4
 
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I get that that the numbing is not terrible. As I say it's actually a really good charm it's just not what I would look for in a replacement for splintered Gale and considering I voted for splintered Gale I'm only left with one conclusion ya know. That's not to suggest Molly would treat them as disposable but they're just not meant to be structurally important to an infernal at all and to be frank anything that makes them not that is going to be too far departure from the main charm for me to say it's a good replacement rather than being its own charm.
The point of the homebrew is to have a different charm that fills a similar requirement, being the same as the base one shouldn't be the metric. You're "supposed" to be able to impregnate yourself with the thing. Is the lack of that feature a flaw despite the near certainty we won't use that feature and how it doesn't fit the themes for this particular charm at all?

Our clones will in any case be part of Molly's soul structure, and losing them is a problem for various reasons. Everything from ritual magic targets to information games, to reagents for anti-Molly weapons to who knows what else. We can mitigate those, but getting them killed routinely without issue isn't exactly a real feature.

What do you want from one that the other doesn't fill?
 
Our clones will in any case be part of Molly's soul structure, and losing them is a problem for various reasons. Everything from ritual magic targets to information games, to reagents for anti-Molly weapons to who knows what else. We can mitigate those, but getting them killed routinely without issue isn't exactly a real feature.

What do you want from one that the other doesn't fill?
You essentially made a Liger and of Avula of the night Forge maker charm. Then say it's a good stand in for a blood ape making charm. I'm going to say no actually. I think it's a good General infernal charm because making demons in the manner that you're suggesting and those are third circle Demons by the way they're not the tools that splintered Gale makes they are intimacies embodied is cool and good but it's not a good replacement for Splintered Gale Shintai.

Also the parthenogenesis I get it you don't like it but don't pretend like it doesn't have a function or it can't have a function to be honest I'm pretty sure it's meant to work that you could create a baby that you can put somewhere that acts as a horcrux that isn't as amazingly suspicious such as a full blown clone. One thing to remember is that the children still work as the regular clones do which means you can use them as a means of Resurrection.
 
You essentially made a Liger and of Avula of the night Forge maker charm. Then say it's a good stand in for a blood ape making charm. I'm going to say no actually. I think it's a good General infernal charm because making demons in the manner that you're suggesting and those are third circle Demons by the way they're not the tools that splintered Gale makes they are intimacies embodied is cool and good but it's not a good replacement for Splintered Gale Shintai.

He just said that the entire point is not to be SGI, of course it's not the same charm, it's... not the same charm.

He's not pretending this is SGI, it's a clone charm, not SGI.
 
He just said that the entire point is not to be SGI, of course it's not the same charm, it's... not the same charm.

He's not pretending this is SGI, it's a clone charm, not SGI.
Okay I voted for SGI I don't know what else to say I don't want third circle maker charm. I would prefer the Clones. Whether they have free will or not whether we have to work on them or not.
 
They are by Canon? Only the Lunar version are not.
Why would they be? These are the canon rules:
The Infernal spends 5 Essence and
screams, issuing forth a crimson gale that resolves into
a perfect copy of herself. This clone comes into the
world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely
aware of what it is, and in possession of the same personality and memories as the Infernal. It has the same
Traits as the Infernal, but is completely mortal, with
no magic of any sort. Alternately, if the Infernal possesses a working uterus, she can use this Charm to impregnate herself. This parthenogenetic child will grow
up to be a perfect physical duplicate of the Infernal,
but is otherwise a normal human being.
The Infernal can have up to her Essence rating in
clones alive and active at once. By spending 1 Essence,
she can cause a clone within her presence to unravel
back into crimson wind which she absorbs, granting
her all of the memories the clone accumulated during
its existence. If the Infernal wishes, she may re-create
specific absorbed clones in the future when using
Splintered Gale Incarnation.
If the Infernal should ever die while any of her
clones are abroad in the world, her body dissolves into
a screaming wind that streams across the world and
pours itself into the nearest clone. This destroys the
clone's memories and identity as the Infernal takes
over its body. Reincarnating in this fashion reduces the
Infernal's Essence rating by 1. If this would reduce her
to Essence 0, then reincarnation is impossible
By RaW the clones are perfectly mortal. Hell, "clone exalts" might well be possible here at least for Lunar exaltations
 
You essentially made a Liger and of Avula of the night Forge maker charm. Then say it's a good stand in for a blood ape making charm. I'm going to say no actually. I think it's a good General infernal charm because making demons in the manner that you're suggesting and those are third circle Demons by the way they're not the tools that splintered Gale makes they are intimacies embodied is cool and good but it's not a good replacement for Splintered Gale Shintai.

Also the parthenogenesis I get it you don't like it but don't pretend like it doesn't have a function or it can't have a function to be honest I'm pretty sure it's meant to work that you could create a baby that you can put somewhere that acts as a horcrux that isn't as amazingly suspicious such as a full blown clone. One thing to remember is that the children still work as the regular clones do which means you can use them as a means of Resurrection.
Okay I voted for SGI I don't know what else to say I don't want third circle maker charm. I would prefer the Clones. Whether they have free will or not whether we have to work on them or not.
The vote was initially just supposed to be clone charm or not, then a vote for the kind we wanted. Which is why TTON was a valid option in the first place. Fair enough on not wanting it, but arguing it's a bad choice because it isn't SGI when we're voting on if we want to replace it is missing the point.

The parthenogenesis thing was just something I brought up to demonstrate how strange your arguments sounded to me. You can say you just like that charm better and that's fair, but the position you're advancing about it not being a good replacement for SGI because it replaces it is silly.


Just to note something further here, this is the baseline fluff for the purposes of the quest:
It is not you in a material and deterministic way, it is you in a metaphysical sense, they are literally aspects of your beings which are the product of charms. A charm is not a spell it is not something you do like 'pulling versions of yourself out of alternative timelines' it is something you are. Splintered Gale Incarnation does not manifest another person, it grows another head for the hydra that is the Infernal Exalted, only the people on this plane of existence cannot see the body so they think the heads are two snakes. If that comparison sounds eldritch inhuman that is because Infernal Charms are inhuman, made in the image of the Yozi who never were and never sought to understand humanity

the clones are in all cases currently on the board are going to be a set of subsoul equivalents capped at our essence level. There isn't an option where we're spinning off disposable tools distinct from Molly in the general sense.

I think what you're looking for is pretty different than any version of the current options and that you'd probably be better off putting up a homebrew of your own.
 
The vote was initially just supposed to be clone charm or not, then a vote for the kind we wanted. Which is why TTON was a valid option in the first place. Fair enough on not wanting it, but arguing it's a bad choice because it isn't SGI when we're voting on if we want to replace it is missing the point.

The parthenogenesis thing was just something I brought up to demonstrate how strange your arguments sounded to me. You can say you just like that charm better and that's fair, but the position you're advancing about it not being a good replacement for SGI because it replaces it is silly.


Just to note something further here, this is the baseline fluff for the purposes of the quest:


the clones are in all cases currently on the board are going to be a set of subsoul equivalents capped at our essence level. There isn't an option where we're spinning off disposable tools distinct from Molly in the general sense.

I think what you're looking for is pretty different than any version of the current options and that you'd probably be better off putting up a homebrew of your own.
I get what you're saying they in this continuity are subsouls but you know how many heads of a Hydra are affected when one of the heads get cut off. None in every myth unless something burns the stump which in this case is Molly there's always more heads. They are sub Soul equivalents but they're the subsol equivalent of blood Apes that happened to have the same mind and understanding of the world that you do rather than being blood Apes you are still suggesting actually embodying intimacies. That is literally what third circle demons are the fact they have their own Supernatural powers on top of that just further reinforces that point.

I'm going to put forward a hypothetical that hopefully illustrates my point let's say In Malfeas there is One Liger there are also miniature Ligers that are first Circle demons that happened to look like him let's say he created them to talk to other unquestionables or second Circle Souls to be his voice. Despite being connected and him directly making them from his essence no one is going to say they're the same or that killing one of those miniature Ligers actually let you affect the main one.
This in my mind is splintered Gale incarnation those miniature ligers have the same motivations same thoughts same feelings and general inclinations of the green sun himself they are not the being and killing them while it would irritate the green sun that you would disrespect him so would do exactly Jack and or shit.

You on the other hand made a Charm describing the relationship between Malfeas and Liger, The Brass Dancer ect. The fact that we wouldn't explode into a puddle of non-reactive Essence if you killed one of them isn't the point the fact killing them at all affects us means it's a not a viable replacement for splintered Gale incarnation in my mind. It carries completely different thematics it carries completely different tones and it performs a completely different function it's just not even close to the same thing. The only thing that is similar about the two charms is there are multiple people that have the same intimacies and memories running around that are connected to a singular hub.

In my mind saying they're equivalent would be like saying because Malfeas has Liger he doesn't have neomah or doesn't need blood Apes.
 
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[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] Akuma and Fomori version
[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] Akuma and Fomori version 2.0
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v3
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v4
 
[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] As canon

I dont see the point of overcomplicating this. Its deliberately freeform for a reason.
And I personally dont like the narrative reasoning/justification behind the variants being proposed; I dont want them to be automatically akuma, or something like that.

I mean, taking the base version means having to do a lot of work to make our clones fomor like uju wants to, so from my point of view that's definitely the more complicated thing.
Its 8m to both make a clone and IDU it; thats 2 hours in a bleach bath to regenerate the Essence.
Not really an issue.
 
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[X] [Explanation] Try to be as precise as you can, even if it means you have to give them the Language

[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] Akuma and Fomori version 2.0

[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v4

[X] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] As canon
 
Given that the entire plan is to make them into fomori, that are creature of darkness....
You can make four of them at E4.
That allows you to deploy 3x Fomori versions, while leaving a 4th with base specs if you so choose.

I would want to keep at least one as a human, actually. Only ever deploy them in Sanctuary or under heavy protection, but it's a good persepctive to have, and very symbolic.
I can see the narrative justification.
And we will have enough that we can afford to do so if we so choose; 1x Fomori as roommates with Rosie, a 2nd doing admin work in Sanctuary, and a 3rd to help Molly do errands at home, duck school when necessary, or do training in Sanctuary.

That leaves a 4th to be bogstandard human if we so choose.
My first personal impulse is to Sleeping Beauty that one in a Sanctuary safe room as the designated backup, but I can see the narrative justification to have them running around as a mortal in Sanctuary.
 
I dont see the point of overcomplicating this.
Its deliberately freeform for a reason.
And I personally dont like the narrative reasoning/justification behind the variants being proposed; I dont want them to be automatically akuma, or something like that.
I don't think it's really overcomplicating things, it's defining them. It seems less free form and more poorly laid out in a way that needs to answer the same questions my version is, it just makes it something that's going to be given a ruling later instead of laying out what should happen now.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Jun 5, 2024 at 7:02 PM, finished with 80 posts and 29 votes.
 
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v4
[x] [Splintered Gale Incarnation] A thousand titles, one name v3
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jun 5, 2024 at 10:23 PM, finished with 82 posts and 30 votes.
 
I don't think it's really overcomplicating things, it's defining them. It seems less free form and more poorly laid out in a way that needs to answer the same questions my version is, it just makes it something that's going to be given a ruling later instead of laying out what should happen now.
I dont agree.

That lack of definition was deliberate, not an omission or a mistake. Your version mechanizes stuff that doesnt need to be mechanized, IMO, and forces decisions that are best established by rulings later as the full impact evolves, rather than having to worry about the implication of retcons. And it makes hard narrative assumptions that we havent taken a position on yet.

Its much the same reason why IDU doesnt come with a hard specification on how many fomor powers and Gifts that can be bestowed on a person.
That is a table by table, game by game decision.

My opinion.
 
@Yog
Sorry the reply was late. Largely moot now, but since I typed it out anyway, its in spoilers:
We spend word count on school, and crafting. I plan to fold in proposals for boosts into crafting AP, it seems like a natural enough thing to do. And we consistently have training with shih.
We spend word count on school because and when its interesting social, and we only spend word count on Crafting when interesting social things are happening then.
Compare the difference between Molly making Lily's talisman to when we raised Watchful Bane.

There's a reason most permanent changes are done at one time at the end of the story arc.
Whoever is tracking the bookkeeping does it all at once, edits the character sheets at once, and the players know what the expected stats of their characters are for the next story arc, instead of having to guess.

This whole thing simply creates busywork for the QM that displaces actually plot-relevant shit.
And makes unnecessary friction for the players.
Since the charm doesn't spend resources, we'll win that.
Against a low-level spirit sure.
Maybe even against a mage who has received this spirit charm as a Gift from a spirit totem.

Someone with a protective magic talisman or wards, or organic countermagic like a not!HITMark or not!ATLAS?
Or even a mortal Infernalist with an Investment? Nope.
Nevermind a Walker or a Yama King.


Story wise we are already low key benefitting from this via stunts and politely ignoring some details (like how did we haul out that Malfean brass haul from Wicked City). This just makes it more defined. Maybe switch from mass to total number of items?
Thats not true.

When we killed the Fomor sorcerer, we had a truck, and we took time to stash everything we looted in a cavern that we bricked up. When we killed the Will of Kakuri, we spent significant time burying bodies in safe caches for later retrieval. In Vegas, preserving Harrowmont's library was a significant consideration in our deciding to stay at the University instead of simply leaving.

In the Wicked City, we had 15x Iron Elementals in our baggage train hauling our loot.

This is likely to be very distorting on gameplay going forward, when Molly can basically loot places to bedrock without much in the way of concern. And thats not counting how it affects combat going forward.

Think of Vegas, where chemical weapons were a significant concern that shaped the entire story.
Would this be an issue if we had a bag of holding with gas masks and antidotes? Or if we were captured somewhere or somehow, and the QM cannot try to arrange a story that includes having to break out because we are always equipped.

Its largely moot now, but this was always a bad idea.

Consider why Holden, and even the better homebrew, all avoided this design space.
The man gave us a 3-dot charm that produces modern weapons with infinite ammunition, but he didnt give us an inventory.
 
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