Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dreams of Disease is literally not a perfect attack. I'm not changing tack I'm saying that is not the measurement of an attack being perfect or not.

BSS is a perfect effect there are a lot of those like DD, GSNF having a perfect effect does not make you a perfect attack. Before you say bullshit that's just how it's always been otherwise perfect Dodges and perfect soaks are also perfect attacks. The fact they deal damage does not make them perfect attacks. The fact gsnf and DD need successful hits to activate at all disqualifies them for being perfect attacks.

The fact that BSS can fail to connect makes it not perfect attack. It is as simple as that the damage does not matter the fact of the matter is BSS is meant to occupy the same space as a perfect attack but it's not that. You keep saying that it automatically hits but that's not actually true you spend the essence to activate it then you make a roll to decide whether it does anything inherently it has an activation and a roll and the roll determines whether or not it does anything unless looking at someone is attacking them that is what decides whether it's a miss or a hit.

So I have to turn it over to you show me a perfect attack that can fail to connect with a Target outside of a perfect defense.

I think your definition of a perfect attack is too wide extremely so. There are perfect effects which include a perfect attacks Dodges and soaks on hit effects and more which covers literally every perfect effect in the game including BSS but BSS isn't a perfect attack because it literally doesn't register to hit considerably more similar to a bonfire or some kind of environmental hazard than it is actually an attack.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 18, 2024 at 8:32 AM, finished with 69 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Last Check Before the Road
    -[X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
    --[X] Wearable short range secure communicators for every member of the raid
    --[X] A couple of EMP grenades
    -[X] Crown Questions
    --[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
    --[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
    --[X] What are the identities (for the purposes of BMI) of akuma or demons that are allowed within the vicinity of the facility Nora's ancestor is being kept at, who are not present at Wicked City right now?
    --[X] What are the locations the release of the hope plague in which will have the largest impact on Wicked City?
    [X] Just Lydia's Hands
    [X]Plan Hell's Coming With Me
    [X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
    -[X] Consult your armorer and acquire weaponry and armor for the squad, something fashionable yet deadly
    -[X] Crown Questions
    --[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
    --[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
    --[X] where would be the ideal place to unleash the hope plague in order to infect the highest number of beings in Mikaboshi's realm?
 
Dreams of Disease is literally not a perfect attack. I'm not changing tack I'm saying that is not the measurement of an attack being perfect or not.
… Never said it was. I was referencing a charm that only triggers on damage. As in the context of using it with a perfect attack and the delivery still failing. Like how you spent the first half of this argument saying the existence of FSS demonstrated that Sinner Boiling Stare wasn't a perfect attack. The point is that you're drawing an arbitrary distinction that never mattered to this particular thing.


BSS is a perfect effect there are a lot of those like DD, GSNF having a perfect effect does not make you a perfect attack. Before you say bullshit that's just how it's always been otherwise perfect Dodges and perfect soaks are also perfect attacks. The fact they deal damage does not make them perfect attacks. The fact gsnf and DD need successful hits to activate at all disqualifies them for being perfect attacks.
No, none of this makes sense. GSFN isn't a perfect effect unless you call excellency a perfect effect too. I don't see any connection to perfect dodges being perfect attacks or what you're going for here. You were the one who kept trying to use the existence of these charms was relevant to if perfect attacks are are perfect attacks or not.

An attack is something that attempts to do damage. A perfect attack is such an attempt that cannot be actively defended against save by perfect effects. That is the only definitive property they have, everything else is optional.


So I have to turn it over to you show me a perfect attack that can fail to connect with a Target outside of a perfect defense.
It skips the hit resolution phase. The roll is a damage roll. It is the same as GDG where you always roll 0 to hit.

Anything that triggers on you attempting a damage roll that doesn't have a specific restriction to how, like requiring a melee weapon be involved, should apply.


I think your definition of a perfect attack is too wide extremely so. There are perfect effects which include a perfect attacks Dodges and soaks on hit effects and more which covers literally every perfect effect in the game including BSS but BSS isn't a perfect attack because it literally doesn't register to hit considerably more similar to a bonfire or some kind of environmental hazard than it is actually an attack
Name a perfect dodge that attempts to deal damage to a target in a way that can only be blocked by a perfect defense. I'm not sure what definition you think I'm using, but I've written it out explicitly several times and it's not terribly involved.

Edit:
I probably shouldn't have posted this. I still stand by my position, but we're solidly in thread disruption territory given how no one else is participating in this line of discussion and it's starting to get impolite*.

Don't want to do the whole "let me get the last word in and then call to end the debate in the name of civility so I get the last word" thing though. So how about you just tie off the discussion with your reply to this and we shelve it until it becomes relevant?

* I do mean both of us, we're getting snide at about the same rate.

Edit: dropped a word
 
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Arc 12 Post 68: What Passes in the Dark
What Passes in the Dark

28th of January 2007 A.D.

As Nergui pulls you through the curtain torn in the air you find yourself not in the spectral fire, an echo of when the mansion and indeed Bianca's Velvet Room, met their end, but flooding. The waters of the lake, tainted grey with soot and ash flow among half ruined rooms open to an ever-darkening, never-pitch-black sky. The dead are silent here, silhouettes greyer still, Pompey on Lake Michigan save once in a while out of the corner of your eyes you can see one fleeing from a fire they can't escape.They aren't really here of course, just memories barely enough to leave a cold spot on the other side. It seems a poor place to look for an entrance into hell... at least until Nergui forces a door open to what must have been the staff quarters, the wood groaning like a man in pain, only to leave behind a portal of pitch darkness and the sound of labored breathing.

Of course the worst of the predation wouldn't have happened in the mistress' chambers or her office. No matter the true nature of the Red Court most of them still think of themselves as human, they have favorites kept around for their skills or even just for their company and then there's the rest...

What must initially have been cheap pine beds barely long and wide enough for an adult their sheets oft stained red in hurried feeding now pulse like fleshy sacks contained by the box of the bed frame in a grotesque caricature of living, human hearts pulled from their chests. Yet it is not these mementos of atrocity you are here to find, instead Nergui carefully lowers himself into the water and shimmies under one of the nearest bed.

To all the place you enter dark would be like calling Arctis Tor cold, the blackness is all encompassing, suffocating not with claustrophobia as the mind might is primed to expect, but sheer emptiness. The sound of breathing, which above had only been the backdrop to the horror done in that house now grows comforting. Lydia and Tiffany are both right behind you. Alas your guide has no breath. He makes do with slow rhythmic clapping that seamlessly transitions into the sound of hooves on hard-packed barren soil, the sound itself seeming to lend texture to the substrate.

No sooner had you gotten used to walking on it that the found starts sloaping sharply upwards only to open into pits at least as deep as you are tall though every time the sound of the horse hooves breaking off warn you of what's about to happen. At one point you do have to go all the way around the rim of the pit and find that it is circular, a crater.

"Ooh..." Lydia breaks the silence, voice faint even over the communicator. "What's...?" Anoyance shifts to pity. "Careful not to disturb them, it probably won't do anything, but you never know."

Before you can ask what 'they' are your own foot hits something rounded and smooth about as five or six inches. A skull you realize at once and a few moments that it is not just one or two of them, but thousands, tens of thousands. For the first time since the four of you entered the layer you clearly are not alone. Things scurry in the dark, the sound of bone grating on stone.

"Scavengers, leave them," Nergui's voice floats back between the hoof-beats.

So for a while you walk, one hand on the pummel of your sword. Then the sounds stop, not slowly fading as they might if you simply walked away from the group of necrophages, but cut off sharply, like a wall of lead had fallen between them and you.

"We have arrived," there is something all too portentous about that voice, though not near as much as the soft screech as equine skates make contact with something at least pretending to be metal. "Do not trust the Road. Do not discount the Road. Accept that it is but do not accept it within you."

As you take flight you hear the whisper of wings unfurling, feathered you think, crow's wings then. Shikome often take some part of the carrion bird within them, deluding themselves that they are not merely tormenting the damned, but in some way assuring the spiritual hygiene of the world. The illusion passes of course, but the marks upon the inner demon remain, mocking their previous naivete for eternity.

Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 13/15 (By Rage Recast and Hellscry Chakra)

Along the seemingly endless descent, whose sharp and unexpected turns do not seem to do more than add to the blur of the straight paths you consider what you had learned of the target of your raid. Perdition's Edge is clings to a spit of stone overlooking one of the Rifts like a enormous spider of iron and steel. Construction had begun when steam was still king and the telegraph the height of speedy communication. While the latter had been retrofired with broadband and communication lasers the power source had remained the same coal powered behemoth that swallowed vast amounts of Yin-touched rock into furnaces alight with the stolen passions of the damned, its oily smoke the perfect commingling of essence to mark the Wicked City and thus pumped throughout the Hell by the complex array of ducts and vents that had long ago replaced any semblance of natural wind.

It had seemed like Providence to find both Joe Magarac's prison and a perfect vector for the Hope Plague in the same place, and you are certainly not withdrawing your thanks to God over it, but it does make sense, the Rifts hold the most potent Essence in all of Yomi so any Yama King would want to dig their stamp as deeply as they can into them and then make sure that power flows far and wide. And if one is in the possession of a spirit of industry and productivity, what better place than that to make productive?

Alas the eyes in your Crown do not linger upon faces enough to simply pluck the identities of researchers who work at Perdition's Edge out of the ether. But you do know the name of one who would fit your purposes: Hunger-Weighing-Harbinger who is in London for a symposium. He likes keep up on the latest mortal research in pediatric nutrition. Somehow even the life-sucking presence of the Road still beneath you is not as chilling as that remembered implication. Putting that aside far, far aside, there's a job to do, if you can pull his face out of one of the networks in the Wicked City without being detected it would give you unparalleled access.

Ahead you hear Nergui swerve though you do not feel the energies of the Road shift that way drawing your attention to a shape seemingly carved of the same black ice as the Road itself and thus you are able to make out his contours with some effort. He had apparently had the same idea with the skates as Nergui, but he had fallen, or more likely something had pushed him over.

Morbidly curious you reach out to touch the back of his head. Metal/Bone/Ice. You snatch back your hand before it can claim any of your Essence in the process touching the familiar fabric of a ballistic jacket. He's only been here years not decades or centuries. The cutting winds of the Deadlands eventually grind all those so lost to dust, less than memory. What had driven him to try to reach Yomi alone you wonder? A search for answers only the dead know? A loved one still suffering under the whip of the Yama Kings?

If you but ask it would be revealed.

Behind you Lydia too stops, her own question half whispered. "If I called you would you rise?"

"Only if you were to mighty as the move the Road entire to our will," you answer, the knowledge just now coming to you. "All whom it consumed are stretched out along it like piano wire, unresting, blind agony."

"No," she answers almost as if in a daze. "Not blind, there is something there whispering to itself in the dark, never quiet, never still, if I called something would answer, it knows me as I know it. Thief it is and I the guardian." The weight of those words is more than anger, it is essence, a dangerous truth.

Lydia loses 1 Essence -> Talisman now at 1/2 (Intelligence Excellency)

You Regain 2 Essence > Now at 15/15 (Urge of the Forbidden)


"Thief it may have been once," Tiffany corrects drawing close. "Here and now it is more harvester of the lost. You are not strong enough, all of us together are not strong enough!"

"To pull away one soul?" Lydia challenges sharply and in a way you are glad to hear it. The Road is not something to be communed with.

"If we are found we could fail, we could die, we could lose the package all so you could be said to have rescued one soul already twice damned."

That... that had been the wrong thing for Tiffany to say. You can hear Lydia's breathing quicken with anger and then settle in resolve. "It's not just about one soul, I want to know what this is, why does it sound like chalk on a blackboard, like ants under my skin. I need to know. If something... something bad happens you can just go ahead..."

"Sure, we'll just let you deal with the cosmic abomination that eats souls, which you just informed us is sentient," you say with the kind of casual peppiness one would use when dropping someone off at the mall. "Look if you want to figure out what this thing is and how it works I'm hardly one to argue against it, given some of the things I've pocked, but do you know one thing that constantly went through my head as I was flying by the seat of my pants: 'Man, I wish I had something other than my pants to hang on to right now!' "

"I..." you hear her deflate. "You're right, we can deal with this later, once our quest is..." She never gets to finish her sentence as a howl rends the air, mournful-cruel, then another and another.

You lose 1 Essence -> Now at 14/15 (Empathy Excellency)

"Unfaced!" Nergui cries wheeling in place to look back along the road.

What do you do?

[] Try to outrun them
Nergui's 'horse' is three times faster than any mortal equine and you can more than match it, pick up Lydia and Tiffany and go

[] Stand and fight
The last thing you need is to be caught between these things and the servants of the Yama kings
-[] Try to keep up the pretense of being Shikome
The last thing you need is news of your coming to preceded you into Yomi
-[] Destroy them as fast as you can
If you do not leave any witnesses there is no one to report

OOC: Welp that was a long one. Hope you guys enjoy.
 
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[X] Try to outrun them

Kemmler truly deserves his solar exaltation, even if he never received it.

So, the Road is totally the tomb of Ebon Dragon's Neverborn or something like that. I kinda expected either Molly or Lydia to have such a reaction, yes. One of the reasons for choosing Ebon Road was for deep lore.
 
Honestly, running helps with our cover anyways so…

[x] Try to outrun them
Nergui's 'horse' is three times faster than any mortal equine and you can more than match it, pick up Lydia and Tiffany and go
 
There being only two left might be even more reason to go with Yog's plan of making a new one, though we'll need to gather resources and max crafting skills and probably yet more circle members to do it well
It's the kind of thing we need to be careful about yeah. If the other dragons take offense because we wound their pride it could be bad.

They're apparently kinda bitter about the white God's new management policy for creation and the rise of humans in it. Doesn't make it an impossible bit of politics, but we probably want to avoid the appearance of making him too much of a servant.


True, and I think we'll need to make some sort of political statement about our reasons for our actions. Or, rather, we'll need to publicize (without details) what Mikaboshi tried to do, so everyone can draw connection to what happened to him
The council and white court are obvious picks for this, but we should also consider involving the Shih. They're not as organized or overtly powerful, but being envoys and intermediaries are core roles for them. Which means they know people and are likely to have at least some factions reach out to them as part of their intelligence efforts."Mikaboshi poked something in the west and tried some screwball money plot that got him serious reprisal" is the exact sort of thing people would expect them to know about and it gets that information into his region of the world faster.

Our contact isn't from his neighborhood, but it has direct links and the hop is small from Nepal than it is from England or Chicago.
"Only if you were to mighty as the move the Road Entire to our will," you answer, the knowledge just now coming to you. "All whom it consumed are stretched out along it like piano wire, unresting, blind agony."
We don't have the time now, but it occurs to me that solaroid crafting allows you to rip dragon nests out of the ground and fashion them into cute accessories if you want to. There isn't a size limit either, we can do it as long as we have access. That's by definition the ability to do wide range leyline fuckery of the type wizards and gods alike would balk at. It's a splendor thing; we're telling the laws of the current universe to sit down and shut up. Presumably you can defend against that, but I don't think it'd be easy if we took local control by force and had unlimited access to the leylines.

This this sounds awfully similar in a lot of ways. Probably not as one big nest, but as a weave of intersecting lines of power.

So what do you suppose would happen if we came back here with an army and started tearing out concentrated suffering to fashion into miracles?

I'm thinking something like the the peach tree or elemental dragon build @Yog made, but instead of empowering the living by applying arcana templates it'd reassemble lost souls into emanations. An engine powered by stealing back the energy generated by their torment to make them whole. To make them more.

Then we set them to take the road for us, coming in to build more watch posts as our lamplighters take them.
 
It's the kind of thing we need to be careful about yeah. If the other dragons take offense because we wound their pride it could be bad.

They're apparently kinda bitter about the white God's new management policy for creation and the rise of humans in it. Doesn't make it an impossible bit of politics, but we probably want to avoid the appearance of making him too much of a servant.
We can expect only one of two reactions, I think: either apoplectic rage, or "finally, the exalts are back! Break out the really old wine, and let's watch fireworks!". Because the Dragon's, even if they are surely not the same ones as in Creation, probably remember at least something about previous exalts.
The council and white court are obvious picks for this, but we should also consider involving the Shih. They're not as organized or overtly powerful, but being envoys and intermediaries are core roles for them. Which means they know people and are likely to have at least some factions reach out to them as part of their intelligence efforts."Mikaboshi poked something in the west and tried some screwball money plot that got him serious reprisal" is the exact sort of thing people would expect them to know about and it gets that information into his region of the world faster.

Our contact isn't from his neighborhood, but it has direct links and the hop is small from Nepal than it is from England or Chicago.
Yeah, something like that. We should definitely do this. It would also probably help shih as a faction a bit to have this information.
We don't have the time now, but it occurs to me that solaroid crafting allows you to rip dragon nests out of the ground and fashion them into cute accessories if you want to. There isn't a size limit either, we can do it as long as we have access. That's by definition the ability to do wide range leyline fuckery of the type wizards and gods alike would balk at. It's a splendor thing; we're telling the laws of the current universe to sit down and shut up. Presumably you can defend against that, but I don't think it'd be easy if we took local control by force and had unlimited access to the leylines.

This this sounds awfully similar in a lot of ways. Probably not as one big nest, but as a weave of intersecting lines of power.

So what do you suppose would happen if we came back here with an army and started tearing out concentrated suffering to fashion into miracles?

I'm thinking something like the the peach tree or elemental dragon build @Yog made, but instead of empowering the living by applying arcana templates it'd reassemble lost souls into emanations. An engine powered by stealing back the energy generated by their torment to make them whole. To make them more.

Then we set them to take the road for us, coming in to build more watch posts as our lamplighters take them.
We should definitely investigate more. If Ebon Road is actually a Neverborn, we'll need a lot of prep. And also a recipe for Darkhallow, and a lot of prep for Lydia (because spirit eating a dead Primordial should definitely be enough to boost her to celestial tier, as long as we keep her from exploding in the process).

We should probably start by getting one statue with us, at least in canon, it's something a lot of people do - taking statues and using them as ornaments. We should then research restoring them. And a lot of stuff about Ebon Road. It's just a shame that we got so few successes ourselves.
 
It's the kind of thing we need to be careful about yeah. If the other dragons take offense because we wound their pride it could be bad.

They're apparently kinda bitter about the white God's new management policy for creation and the rise of humans in it. Doesn't make it an impossible bit of politics, but we probably want to avoid the appearance of making him too much of a servant
*tilts head*
I don't think we need to make them a servant at all? Just, be their parent and do it well and they'll help us of their own accord.
As for politics? Molly is both a social exalt and will be barely more human than they are by the time she's done growing. So sure, her liking humans might prickle at their pride but like, they have all the time in reality to change her opinion about that, and if they know what she is? Well, getting in the good graces of a power that will rival Yahweh one day is just good sense, so I'm not sure how difficult the politics would actually be as long as Molly doesn't do anything too offensive?
 
Do Dragons operate with such mentalities?

Also yeah I knew we were going to run into some form of conflict. Boring option my ass.
I know Dresden verse ones have a bigger thing about names than humans, but I think… mostly yes? But also it's not like they won't pick up things like that with Molly as their mum.
 
But also it's not like they won't pick up things like that with Molly as their mum.
I moreso mean are they even capable of that to begin with. Like do Dragons have the mental facilities that would allow or make it all that likely for it to look at Molly in that sense. With supernatural creatures it's better not to apply human concepts and logic to their mentality without proof.

I don't recall anything from canon that would imply it in this sense which is why I ask.
 
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I moreso mean are they even capable of that to begin with. Like do Dragons have the mental facilities that would allow or make it all that likely for it to look at Molly that way. With supernatural creatures it's better not to apply human concepts and logic to their mentality without proof that they work that way.

I don't recall anything from canon that would imply it in this sense which is why I ask.
Exalted dragons definitely do and can at the very least. It obviously isn't exactly the same as humans, but like, they're entirely capable of adopting random humans to parent and have been raised by human deities before so…
 
[X] Try to outrun them

No need for anything fancy, Molly can fly pretty fast and even if they catch up this option wouldn't use any Essence.
 
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