Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
I think we should ask it very likely is a supernatural secret of some kind as Lash points out how weird this is. Maybe it's related to how they got an Outsider inside of it? In any case I think we'll get a mote back so let's go.

[X] Ask how the odd collection got in the vampire
 
firefrog600 said:
Like this basically artificially inflates outsider problems from manageable to any evil group being able to pump out outsiders if they're nihilistic or stupid enough. It's not a fun change either as far as I'm concerned it basically just makes the setting harder and makes it so things are difficult and infeasible to have survived so long.

I'm kind of debating this as a quest decision like you can do what you want but there isn't really anything that lends credibility to this in canon. The easy guess is that the reds used some of the many mortals under them or half reds working for them to summon outsiders.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I cannot talk about this without giving spoilers, the point is that IC the White Council does not know how it is done, but either way it scares them. If I confirmed this one way or the other I would be artificially narrowing the range of possibilities Molly and thus you guys can consider. Do not take this as me saying 'yes vampires can summon from beyond the Outer Gates' just 'there is no absolute confirmation they cannot'
 
Okay then if any group had access to the ability to just summon outsiders on their own why would it be the reds? They aren't old enough to have been around when the outsiders were on earth and they don't have the same nature their definitely of reality. Whether it's a spririt, demonic, or godly origin is unknown could be a mixture. Which leaves they found the information how to summon without mortals or it was offered to them. Who would both have it and offer it? If the outsiders could offer it they would have already and to multiple groups. I doubt outsiders would volunteer the information specifically to reds they're not really all that nihilistic. Also why go through the effort of getting your own when disposable mortals can feasibly do it already? Chat discussion by the way.
 
DragonParadox said:
I cannot talk about this without giving spoilers, the point is that IC the White Council does not know how it is done, but either way it scares them. If I confirmed this one way or the other I would be artificially narrowing the range of possibilities Molly and thus you guys can consider. Do not take this as me saying 'yes vampires can summon from beyond the Outer Gates' just 'there is no absolute confirmation they cannot'
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Also in fairness to white council not knowing how they're doing it. That could mean they don't know where and by who rather than the strict methods you know? Like logistics rather than mystical secrets.
 
firefrog600 said:
Also in fairness to white council not knowing how they're doing it. That could mean they don't know where and by who rather than the strict methods you know? Like logistics rather than mystical secrets.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Indeed, all the Council knows is that since the Reds showed the ability to work alongside Outsiders, there have been a lot of them coming out of the woodwork working in a worryingly close manner to the interests of some Red Court Vampires, this could be a matter of metaphysics or of logistics.
 
Though I guess one way to get around the mortal issue could be a mortal workaround of an artifact made by mortals explicitly to summon outsiders with some sacrifice needed. As long as a mortal is involved in the process perhaps it was made by mortal will and powered by whatever possibly by mortals.
 
[X] Do not ask, move on

It's either as @Goldfish said and these are personal object anchors to bind souls to fuel it, or they are conceptual ingredients for making it in the first place, like in Dresdenverse potioncraft (like how a pen can contain ink to write on paper, this thing can symbolize containing blood to "write" on reality or something like that).

I feel the way the question is asked does not tell us enough about exactly what Sandra can do (only what was the idea behind it), and such intelligence about the imminent boss would be the only good enough justification to risk spending more essence before said boss fight, than we could get back.
 
Last edited:
firefrog600 said:
Like this basically artificially inflates outsider problems from manageable to any evil group being able to pump out outsiders if they're nihilistic or stupid enough. It's not a fun change either as far as I'm concerned it basically just makes the setting harder and makes it so things are difficult and infeasible to have survived so long.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, this changes nothing.

Any faction that matter can make mortals take part in the summoning.
Reds, Blacks, Formori, Denarians, Nemesis-possessed Wizards or Fey, anyone.
Mindfucking or even just convincing, threatening or bribing some rando mortals to do your bidding is incredibly easy in WoD, in DF and in general.

It's a nice detail of abstract metaphysics, but it doesn't matter on a practical level.

Sandra could right now have a hedge-witch stand next to her and speak the invitations for the Outsider while Sandra herself does the occult heavy lifting and it wouldn't change a thing to having Sandra, or a Rampire, or whatever, do it themselves.
 
Nyarky said:
Thing is, the important part here isn't the information in and of itself, but the potential essence we could regain from it.

As such, it seems better to ask a question that is very likely to give us a secret and two essence than not asking anything.

[X] Ask how the odd collection got in the vampire
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Best case we get an occult secret.
That gives us 2 Essence, vs the 1 we pay to ask.

Maximum profit of 1 Essence.

Not worth it right now.
 
[X] Ask how the odd collection got in the vampire

Bait, possibly, yes, but also possibly a way to replenish essence.
 
Artemis1992 said:
No, this changes nothing.

Any faction that matter can make mortals take part in the summoning.
Reds, Blacks, Formori, Denarians, Nemesis-possessed Wizards or Fey, anyone.
Mindfucking or even just convincing, threatening or bribing some rando mortals to do your bidding is incredibly easy in WoD, in DF and in general.

It's a nice detail of abstract metaphysics, but it doesn't matter on a practical level.

Sandra could right now have a hedge-witch stand next to her and speak the invitations for the Outsider while Sandra herself does the occult heavy lifting and it wouldn't change a thing to having Sandra, or a Rampire, or whatever, do it themselves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd say mind magics are actually relatively rare in Dresden files. Powerful coercion much less so. I also doubt it's that simple simply because one mortal isn't enough to summon hundreds of outsiders otherwise the world would have ended by a few hundred humans summoning as many outsiders as they can. So it does change things because if it was that easy the world would be gone. Then again maybe repeatedly summoning outsiders has personal consequences on the summoner which prevents one summoner from summoning like hundreds or a thousand outsiders over the course of years. Also denarians are mortals thats a bad example.
 
Last edited:
firefrog600 said:
I'd say mind magics are actually relatively rare in Dresden files. Powerful coercion much less so. I also doubt it's that simple simply because one mortal isn't enough to summon hundreds of outsiders otherwise the world would have ended with by a few hundred humans summoning as many outsiders as they can. So it does change things because if it was that easy the world would be gone. Then again maybe repeatedly summoning outsiders has personal consequences on the summoner which prevents one summoner from summoning like hundreds or a thousand outsiders over the course of years. Also denarians are mortals thats a bad example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mind magic is not rare, mind magic is something the good guys do not do, but any random White Court Vampire can sway the minds of mortals and one that is even middling skilled can do so the the point of suicide.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The arch spheres barely fit into a game of proper WoD, I'm not convinced they make sense in the DF.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Both the Darkhallow and McCoy's more spectacular feats of mass murder fall comfortably into Archsphere territory, I believe
The Darkhallow in particular was the same sort of thing that Archmage Voormas tried to pull in oWoD's Time of Troubles mega-event by eating a whole passel of souls to become a god.
===
BronzeTongue said:
Even setting that aside, if Sandra was an archwizard with life 6 or could easily call on an equivalent power this would not be the first we saw of it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why? Quiet uses of extreme skill arent exactly obvious, especially if employed intelligently.
If she was using Life 6 to turn people into Captain America-analogues and sending them off on missions in Europe and Africa and Asia, we wouldnt know it.

Hell, Peabody has been Senior Council secretary for more than twenty years. He was literally there in his official capacity when Dresden was tried for the death of DuMorne. Man has apparently had the access and ability to smuggle an Outsider into the middle of White Council HQ for years, and has done nothing with it besides keeping it in reserve.

There's no point displaying a capability if you dont think the juice is worth the squeeze.
=====
firefrog600 said:
I just find it disappointing you changed what is almost definitely just fact for the purposes of essentially booosting the enemies and upending the setting. Because if you make it so non humans have a way to do it that essentially means any fucking group could possibly do it. Especially when there was an easy answer involved.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Summoning is usually ritual magic.
Its not all that hard for any significant faction of immortals to spend a couple years scouting and raising their own human warlocks for mortal-only magicks. You dont need Council-tier wizards for ritual magic.

The porn star strega that Lord Raith used to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites were all mortal.
DragonParadox said:
Indeed, all the Council knows is that since the Reds showed the ability to work alongside Outsiders, there have been a lot of them coming out of the woodwork working in a worryingly close manner to the interests of some Red Court Vampires, this could be a matter of metaphysics or of logistics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
According to Captain-Commander Luccio in Dead Beat?
Only mortal magic-users can summon Outsiders. Explicit statement.
Dead Beat chapter 31 said:
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor. I wasn't really clear on all of the details, but the Outsiders had been the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who had once ruled the mortal world, but who had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.
There was a specific Law of Magic against contacting them-Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates. No one wanted to be the one suddenly suspected of opening ways for the Outsiders to enter the mortal world. The Wardens absolutely did not play around with violations of the Laws of Magic. Their entire purpose in life was to protect the Council-first from violators of the seven Laws, and then from everyone else.
I eyed the folded grey cloak on the table in front of me.
"I thought only mortal magic could call up Outsiders," I said quietly.
Luccio said quietly, "You are correct."
My stomach lurched a little. Someone had told the Red Court where to find the Council. Someone had blocked off their escape route to the Nevernever so strongly that the most powerful wizards on the planet had required a full day to open them again. And someone had begun calling up Outsiders in numbers, sending them to attack the White Council.
The Council is not what it was, Cowl had said. It has rotted from the inside. It will fall. Soon.
"The Wardens fell back to fight a holding action against the Red Court so that our wounded could escape to safety," Luccio reported, her crisp voice at odds with her weary eyes. "That was when they loosed the Outsiders upon us. We lost another twenty-three Wardens in the first moments of combat, and many more were wounded." There was silence while she took a long pull from her bottle, emptying it, then setting it down sharply on the table, anger flickering in her eyes. "If Senior Council members McCoy and Liberty had not come to our aid, we might have all died there. Even with them, we managed to hold them only long enough for the Gatekeeper and the Merlin to raise a ward behind us, to give us time to escape."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Could be thralled sorcerers; unlikely, but possible. Marcus was cultivating Silk for a reason, after all, and in South America proper he wouldnt have had to be nice about it.
Could be Infested/half-Red sorcerers. Could be rogue wizards.
Plenty of options.

Like I said to @firefrog600 , He Who Walks Behind got back into Earth because he was summoned by Madge Shelly and the rest of her coven of black magic witches in Blood Rites, none of whom were particularly impressive in strength. Its an authority and knowledge thing, apparently. Not a power thing.

Worst case, you burn a human sacrifice or two for power.
And evil factions have never had an issue killing people to fuel black magic; the Red Court sacrificed hundreds of people to prime the Chitchen Itza ritual. Literally hundreds.
 
Last edited:
Nyarky said:
When our tank is empty enough that people are discussing plans based on using one more mote or not, I don't think regaining one mote is *not worth it*.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The chance of getting one is not worth the risk of loosing one.

If the answer is no occult secret and that thing simply swallowed someone with indigestible items on him, we lost essence.
 
DragonParadox said:
Mind magic is not rare, mind magic is something the good guys do not do, but any random White Court Vampire can sway the minds of mortals and one that is even middling skilled can do so the the point of suicide.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes I said mind magics as in specifically manipulating the insides of one's mind with magics. I just said mental coercion not so much. Like there aren't actually all that many wizard grade talents in the world how many wizards even dark mages are actually all that skilled in mind fuckery magics? A couple dozen maybe? More if it's just being capable of doing it.
uju32 said:
Both the Darkhallow and McCoy's more spectacular feats of mass murder fall comfortably into Archsphere territory, I believe
The Darkhallow in particular was the same sort of thing that Archmage Voormas tried to pull in oWoD's Time of Troubles mega-event by eating a whole passel of souls to become a god.
===

Why? Quiet uses of extreme skill arent exactly obvious, especially if employed intelligently.
If she was using Life 6 to turn people into Captain America-analogues and sending them off on missions in Europe and Africa and Asia, we wouldnt know it.

Hell, Peabody has been Senior Council secretary for more than twenty years. He was literally there in his official capacity when Dresden was tried for the death of DuMorne. Man has apparently had the access and ability to smuggle an Outsider into the middle of White Council HQ for years, and has done nothing with it besides keeping it in reserve.

There's no point displaying a capability if you dont think the juice is worth the squeeze.
=====

Summoning is usually ritual magic.
Its not all that hard for any significant faction of immortals to spend a couple years scouting and raising their own human warlocks for mortal-only magicks. You dont need Council-tier wizards for ritual magic.

The porn star strega that Lord Raith used to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites were all mortal.

According to Captain-Commander Luccio in Dead Beat?
Only mortal magic-users can summon Outsiders. Explicit statement.


Could be thralled sorcerers; unlikely, but possible. Marcus was cultivating Silk for a reason, after all, and in South America proper he wouldnt have had to be nice about it.
Could be Infested/half-Red sorcerers. Could be rogue wizards.
Plenty of options.

Like I said to @firefrog600 , He Who Walks Behind got back into Earth because he was summoned by Madge Shelly and the rest of her coven of black magic witches in Blood Rites, none of whom were particularly impressive in strength.
Its an authority and knowledge thing, apparently. Not a power thing.

Worst case, you burn a human sacrifice or two. And evil factions have never had an issue killing people to fuel black magic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I never said it was a power thing but it has to be the mortal summoning it that was my gripe. None of what you said contradicted me they could in fact do the warlock thing and that's what I suggested they did essentially. You shouldn't be able to use a human soul to summon outsiders or sacrifice at least not unless it was done by a mortal as far as we know.
 
firefrog600 said:
Offhand are there anti shaping items?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not exactly. Splendors can do stuff like set the condition of "perfects right now or pay me 5+ willpower and forget what magic is for a bit" which isn't technically a counter spell even if it would stop a lot of people.

Technically we can make prodigies that do whatever mortal magic can as long as we describe it in terms of an active use effect.

Something like a whistle that lets us roll int+occult to disrupt effects Molly can understand and is in range of the noise when she uses it might be viable.
DragonParadox said:
*sword and gun rolls omitted for space, this thing had 35 HL since it was room sized and also breaking the laws of nature*
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's weird to see something tankier than we are. Though it's also pretty funny that it's "only" 8 HL tougher than Molly going full bore. That's more than enough to disintegrate a mortal with enough left over to make another feel it in the morning, but when comparing yourself to eldritch defense platforms the gap starts seeming pretty small.

I am curious about how much damage we actually did with that alpha strike though.
DragonParadox said:
Then the electro-lasers open up only a handful but going all out. There is no rattle of bullets being fired of course, just a line of continuous plasma connecting the barrel to target and the artificial thunder which it brings
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If we do start trading weapons on a broader scale we should consider using the brand name Bolter to mess with warhammer players.
 
Also when I said limits I more meant there's gotta be a reason a outsider aligned wizard hasn't summoned tens of thousands of outsiders throughout a century on their own much less a concentrated effort from hundreds or thousands of mortals working to end the world for a year or two hasn't ended the world. Never said it was about power issues.
 
firefrog600 said:
Yes I said mind magics as in specifically manipulating the insides of one's mind with magics. I just said mental coercion not so much. Like there aren't actually all that many wizard grade talents in the world how many wizards even dark mages are actually all that skilled in mind fuckery magics? A couple dozen maybe? More if it's just being capable of doing it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You do not need a wizard grade talent to get someone to do a summoning, it's not like you have to puppet them, slowly molding them into joining your outsider cult works fine. Someone as skilled as Isabela could do it in weeks to months and she is not very skilled.
 
DragonParadox said:
You do not need a wizard grade talent to get someone to do a summoning, it's not like you have to puppet them, slowly molding them into joining your outsider cult works fine. Someone as skilled as Isabela could do it in weeks to months and she is not very skilled.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why are people responding with this? I wasn't saying it was I'm not even sure it requires talent at all. The comment was about mind magics and for outsider summoning my comment was basically there's gotta ba reason a few hundred outsider associated mortals haven't ended the world. I'm not saying it's a power issue I'm saying there's gotta be some kind of limit presumably that has prevented a hundred or two mortals from ritually summoning outsiders for like a year.
 
firefrog600 said:
Why are people responding with this? I wasn't saying it was I'm not even sure it requires talent at all. The comment was about mind magics and for outsider summoning my comment was basically there's gotta ba reason a few hundred outsider associated mortals haven't ended the world. I'm not saying it's a power issue I'm saying there's gotta be some kind of limit presumably that has prevented a hundred or two mortals from ritually summoning outsiders for like a year.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well for one thing the people whose job it is to guard the outer gates would be rather pissed off at such summoning and tent to kill anyone doing it, kill their teachers and burn their libraries with fire, for another the Oblivion War is a thing. Molly and Co have personally met many of the reasons why Outsiders no longer rule the roost and you just used the aid of a Starborn on one. In short a lot of very powerful people do not like outsiders and they have worked very hard to make sure they do not come back, but some of those mechanisms have been disrupted of late for various reasons that would be spoilers to explain in full
 
I wasn't even debating the ability to get mortals to do the summoning for them. I just basically added the comment mind magic itself isn't that common. Mental coercion very much is.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well for one thing the people whose job it is to guard the outer gates would be rather pissed off at such summoning and tent to kill anyone doing it, kill their teachers and burn their libraries with fire, for another the Oblivion War is a thing. Molly and Co have personally met many of the reasons why Outsiders no longer rule the roost and you just used the aid of a Starborn on one. In short a lot of very powerful people do not like outsiders and they have worked very hard to make sure they do not come back, but some of those mechanisms have been disrupted of late for various reasons that would be spoilers to explain in full
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fair enough but I mean there's gotta be a reason aside from that right? Wouldn't that mean there is a hyper competent team responding really really quickly globally? Like really fucking quickly? Cause all it takes is one group I think. Unless summoning hundreds of outsiders all at once isn't possible which is feasible summoning that many at once could fuck up the magic around and make all the individual summoning rituals infeasible. Actually yeah that makes sense hundreds of mortals dedicated to summoning on one day probably can't just go let's summon a thousand outsiders today.
 
firefrog600 said:
Fair enough but I mean there's gotta be a reason aside from that right? Wouldn't that mean there is a hyper competent team responding really really quickly globally? Like really fucking quickly? Cause all it takes is one group I think. Unless summoning hundreds of outsiders all at once isn't possible which is feasible summoning that many at once could fuck up the magic around and make all the individual summoning rituals infeasible. Actually yeah that makes sense hundreds of mortals dedicated to summoning on one day probably can't just go let's summon a thousand outsiders today.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes that is exactly what it means, including the Gatekeeper who has a loose relationship with linear time. Mass summoning in the open would be most obvious to him, though that is not saying much, it would draw a response from a lot of people with global reach.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top