You would have saved yourself a ton of trouble if you'd simply looked at the Core book for Exalted 2E under Suggested Resources. Where they mention a lot of the thematic and visual influences here, from the Odyssey to Kung Fu Hustle to Final Fantasy. I quote:
Exalted 2E p19 said:
CLASSICS The Bible
That's right. It's not just a book of commandments and
begetting, it's also a story of epic heroes given power by God and
a mandate to go out and right what is wrong with the world.
The Iliad and The Odyssey, Homer The Iliad is basically the template story of the flawed hero
from which every other story in Western civilization draws its
inspiration. And if you want to see the classical underworld
from which grew the Underworld of Exalted, look no further
than The Odyssey. Besides, there is no greater juxtaposition of Dawn Caste and Eclipse Caste than Achilles and Odysseus in these two works.
Journey to the West, Wu Cheng'en
This cornerstone of Asian myth follows the quest of the
priest Sanzang and his three disciples (Pig, monk Sand and the
Monkey King) as they travel from China to India to retrieve
the Buddhist Sutra. More than perhaps any other tale of Asia,
this has found its way into world culture via everything from
anime such as Dragonball and Saiyuki to live-action productions
such as A Chinese Odyssey and The Lost Empire.
I could go to RPG.com or try to track down some of the Thus Spake Zarathustra commentary by the original gameline devs where they are even more explicit about a lot of this stuff; for example, the Primordial War is essentially the Titanomachy lifted wholesale, where the Greek gods overthrew their Titan parents.
But its been more than a decade since the last 2E book was published, and linkrot has happened to a lot of this stuff, with some of the original forums having vanished altogether.
Nor do I have the patience to do so right now.
You would have saved yourself a ton of trouble if you'd simply looked at the Core book for Exalted 2E under Suggested Resources. Where they mention a lot of the thematic and visual influences here, from the Odyssey to Kung Fu Hustle to Final Fantasy. I quote:
I could go to RPG.com or try to track down some of the Thus Spake Zarathustra commentary by the original gameline devs where they are even more explicit about a lot of this stuff; for example, the Primordial War is essentially the Titanomachy lifted wholesale, where the Greek gods overthrew their Titan parents.
But its been more than a decade since the last 2E book was published, and linkrot has happened to a lot of this stuff, with some of the original forums having vanished altogether.
Nor do I have the patience to do so right now.
Not what this was about, actually, and I think I made that pretty clear. My post was about how you, and several others, insist that the definition of "hero in the greek sense of the world" completely lacks moral component of the character. How it's purely about power. I insist, and maintain, that it's not. That character matters. That moral fiber matters. That principles matter.
I haven't ever said, I believe, that exalts are completely free of the flaws, or that we'll find such people, or that exaltations only find people who lack moral flaws. No. I said that statistically morality matters to exaltation. That most of those chosen to exalt are heroes.
Essentially, I am calling you, and others, out on the use of the term "hero in the greek sense of the world" as a dogwhistle for "amoral asshole" (or something like that). For something at least. It has little to no basis in actual greek myth.
EDIT: In your quote, it says "The Iliad is basically the template story of the flawed hero". I tried to understand what "hero" means. Because yes, they are flawed. They are still heroes. Trying to remove "hero" by using the "in the greek sense" excuse changes the message. Hero can have flaws. They overcome them.
On the Greek Myth thing and what is a hero, Procrustes is a demigod, he is a son of Poseidon and yet he is never called a hero, he is a bandit, a obstacle in the path of Theseus who is a hero to the Athenians. So what is the difference between the two? Theseus is a protector of civilization. For all he has flaws, and I do not just mean flaws as we would recognize them, the kidnapping of Helen was something he realized was a bad idea after he did it for instance, Theseus did put his great strength, cunning etc... in the service of his people, hence he was a hero.
On the Greek Myth thing and what is a hero, Procrustes is a demigod, he is a son of Poseidon and yet he is never called a hero, he is a bandit, a obstacle in the path of Theseus who is a hero to the Athenians. So what is the difference between the two? Theseus is a protector of civilization. For all he has flaws, and I do not just mean flaws as we would recognize them, the kidnapping of Helen was something he realized was a bad idea after he did it for instance, Theseus did put his great strength, cunning etc... in the service of his people, hence he was a hero.
Yes, exactly! Thank you so very much! I tried finding this (or some other example), but forgot about him. Because it's useful to examine what a hero is through a lens of who isn't called hero in the same myth. Discarding kings as representatives and stand-ins for "the state", gods as supernatural forces, and monsters as "the other", it's not easy to find an example of someone who is a hero in all respects except the moral one in the myth. Procrustes works great. Maybe Narcissus too?
Yes, exactly! Thank you so very much! I tried finding this (or some other example), but forgot about him. Because it's useful to examine what a hero is through a lens of who isn't called hero in the same myth. Discarding kings as representatives and stand-ins for "the state", gods as supernatural forces, and monsters as "the other", it's not easy to find an example of someone who is a hero in all respects except the moral one in the myth. Procrustes works great. Maybe Narcissus too?
No it's a cycle of violence that can only be broken by using your power wisely that's rather the whole point if your solution to every problem is violence and it works eventually violence becomes the immediate answer for everything and that breaks reality slowly but surely that's what the usurpation does. The abuse and neglect comes from arrogance and callousness regarding your fellow man not from a innate point of being powerful.
No they didn't an infernal and a death knight if they wanted to could just abandon their pact with the Yozi and the Deathlords. In fact that is considered the mode of play for infernals and the immediate mode play for the Abyssal as well. The first thing you're supposed to find out about as an infernal is unless sex and drugs are all you care about there is nothing the yozi offer you that you cannot acquire yourself and they offer an eternity enslavement should they escape. The same story essentially for the deathlords except they end the universe.
To be frank I really don't know why second edition made it so lopsided or why it's still lopsided but now in the lunar's direction in Third Edition but that's neither here nor there. Desus is literally incapable even in his own thoughts of finding any fault with any of his actions do you realize how thoroughly mind fucked you have to be for that to be the case to have no ability to reflect on your actions as if you weren't the hero in the situation. I'm not going to claim that his actions are excused by the great curse but it's obviously soaked into literally every facet of his being at that point.
Salina I'm going to need a Citation for this one because that isn't what happened at all. At least as far as I know it might be different in this Quest but that is not the actual history. Her institution of the Salinan Working was so stealthy her rival who specifically studied his own version of sorcery couldn't tell that reality had been changed to her version until he studied into her version of sorcery and realized it. At no point does that seem like it destabilized reality no it's more fridge horror because she just completely changes reality and a person who specifically studies sorcery realizes only after it's already done.
It was made lopsided on purpose to reflect a rather nasty part of the consequences of absolute power.
Desus, the solar I referenced, is famous for a number of fucked up things starting from basically the beginning of his life. For example, he married his lunar mate and beat her till she miscarried multiple times. Since he had her under Moon and Sun Method the entire time he made their relationship the defining one for her life and set how she felt about it, allowing him to gaslight her into thinking every part of the above was her fault.
Not as limit break mind, he did that shit because he liked it.
If the game is about using your power wisely it's also about what happens if you don't. If everything is preselected for you and the only thing steering it away from the "good" path is a curse then none of the characters have any agency and their choices don't mean anything to the narrative you're advancing.
My point isn't that all Solars are like this, or that they don't do good things. That has never been in dispute and no amount of examples of them being cool change anything.
So, since we cannot agree based on philosophical arguments, I tried to do textual analysis. In order to do that, I used Exalted 2E core book and 2E scroll of exalts. Below is the list of all solar exalts with brief characterizations and circumstances of exaltation.
Life history:
An
orphan of the Time of Tumult, Dace was taken in by the
Ravenous Wolves mercenary company and raised among
its auxiliary.
...
He survived his first battle
and the next and one after another, growing
stronger as he steadily moved up the ranks.
By late middle age, he'd become the most respected captain in the company, and it
was to him that command passed when
the Ravenous Wolves' commander
finally retired.
An orphan in a multi-generational mercenary company who, through his own effort, earned the respect of his peers and superiors and rose to command. The key word here is respect.
Circumstances of exaltation: lead a charge to break through enemy cavalry. When everyone around him died, he finished the charge singlehandedly in the midst of exalting.
Characterization after exaltation:
Dace respects his soldiers
unfailingly and brooks no dispar-
agement of their reputation. He
never leaves wounded soldiers
behind if he can help it, nor does he
allow captured comrades to languish
for very long in enemy hands. His
soldiers, in turn, honor Dace and
follow him with unfailing faith.
Even those who are the most
disturbed by and unsure about
his new Exalted status are still
willing to give him the benefit
of the doubt.
Summary: true neutral to neutral good mercenary leader and warlord. Where possible chooses option that would be better for those under his command.
Life history:
Growing up without any parents to speak of and run-
ning with the orphan gangs on the streets of Chiaroscuro,
Demetheus pulled his weight protecting the smaller kids
from the bullies in rival gangs and the ill-meaning adults
everywhere else—at least the screwed-up ones who treated
kids like toys or punching bags. He left the gangs when he
was old enough to work, like everybody had to, and took some
jobs doing manual labor.
circumstances of exaltation:
And when the kind of
help a strong back and hard fists could provide was called
for, Demetheus felt obliged to lend it.
That's why he got Exalted, he figures. (It's as good a
reason as any.) He'd come to a caravansary where a pair of
brothers were running a theft and murder scheme on lone,
unlucky travelers. The first brother was the brains, so he went
down easy. Now, Demetheus could've left after that, but he
knew the other brother would keep preying on travelers if
he did. So he stayed. When the other brother showed up, a
Solar Exalt was waiting. Though this brother was the muscle,
he never stood a chance.
Summary: unambiguously good hero
Seems to be a reincarnation of a hero from the end of the first age. The characteristic quote is this:
The cause of the sudden explosion of these stories
across the South is the emergence (reemergence?) of a Solar
Exalt who matches the superficial description of the hero
of the older stories. He wanders the South, settling in its
major cities long enough to expose and eradicate rampant
corruption or to help defend them against dire threats from
beyond their walls. When the threat ends, he leaves again,
having laid down no roots in the community. He rarely so
much as gives his name. Some of the Exalted who claim
to have met him have reliable First Age memories of the
martial arts style he uses, and they use its modern name as
a sobriquet to refer to him. They do so obliquely, however,
rather than calling him by that name directly. He appar-
ently finds that rude. When people talk about him, they
usually do so with a subtle, unique inflection on pronouns
that refer to him. It doesn't translate very well outside the
original Flametongue, but native Flametongue speakers
understand it perfectly well when they hear it.
Summary: unambiguously good hero
Life history:
She was born into Gens Karal to
one of Lookshy's greatest Dragon-Blooded generals, but
time proved that she would never be a Dragon-Blood her-
self. Nevertheless, she refused to accept the humdrum life
of a Child of Earth. Like her famous mother, she elected
to make a career in the Seventh Legion and proved her
bravery on the battlefield time and again. As the years
passed by, Fire Orchid made her mother proud (at least as
proud as a Terrestrial hero could be of a mortal daughter)
and rose to the utmost heights of mortal rank. Decades of
honorable service earned Fire Orchid the Legion's respect
and a healthy pension, and she retired to an idyllic farm to
live out her sunset years in peace.
Note, that just like Dace, the keyword here is respect. She was respected by her fellows and superiors.
Circumstances of exaltation:
Peace was not written in her destiny, however,
which became undeniable when the Fair Folk
emerged from a freehold hidden nearby to
menace her quiet village. Her friends and
neighbors panicked and fled and even tried
to negotiate, but the raksha showed
the villagers no mercy. None of
her civilian neighbors seemed to
understand what Fire Orchid did,
that the only way to deal with such
a heartless, alien menace was to fight
back. She resolved to teach them this
by example, and as she did so, the power
of the Unconquered Sun came upon
her. "Strike down the unrighteous
with your fury," the god's voice
said to her, "and teach others
with your wisdom." With
that, the weight of age
lifted, and an orchid
of burning Essence
wove itself in the
air around her.
She drove off
the Fair Folk and
saved the village… for the
moment.
She had a direct visitation by Unconquered Sun, and got a divinely appointed mission of righteousness and heroism. That goes to the intent of exaltations. Yes, such intent is frequently shown for at least some of them.
Main characteristic after exaltation:
In every Child of Earth, she believes,
is a soul of heroism. Some smother it
with wickedness or apathy or fear,
but nothing can truly kill it while
a person yet lives. Fire Orchid has
made it her mission to encourage
and nurture that soul, for it is the
most important part of humanity.
Whether she teaches others how to take
care of themselves or inspires others by her
own Exalted example, her every action is
devoted to making sure people become the
heroes she knows they can be.
Child of Earth = mortal.
Summary: unambiguously good hero
Oh, this one is going to be fun! I'm just going to quote pretty much his whole text, because damn if he doesn't prove my point.
Life history:
The son of a Nexus prostitute, he
was orphaned young then subjected to endless "indenture"
for the crime of stealing to feed himself. A retired arena
fighter named Maxus bought him and took him to the same
fighting school where Maxus himself had grown up.
There, Panther learned how to fight and how to
look after himself, and he was soon on his way
to making a name for himself in the infamous
Pit, Nexus's most popular fighting arena.
Growing up, Panther learned that ruthless
self-service was the only way to become a
champion. In team fights, he sacrificed his
teammates' safety to score telling blows
against his opponents. In one-on-
one engagements, he toyed with
his foes for the crowd's amuse-
ment then brutally broke
them down when the
spectators' bloodlust
was at its highest. In order to win the sponsorship of a wealthy
patron (and amuse the man's jaded peers), he brutally beat
down and killed a former teammate with his bare hands,
ignoring the fighter's surrender and pleas for mercy. For the
blood he spilled and the lives he ruined, he received fame
and money enough to buy his freedom. He ascended to the
lifestyle he'd always coveted, wanting for nothing. Yet, for
all he had, his life was ugly and pointless. The days blended
into a pageant of endless bloodshed. The nights blurred into
a lurching, debauched revel. Life became a fever dream, and
he was content never to awaken.
So, he's a great but essentially neutral evil (selfish and exploitative of others) fighter. If opposition was to be believed, he should have exalted on the basis of his greatness. And yet, he doesn't. His exaltation is directly tied to his virtue, and to his mortality:
But awaken Panther did, and with profound regret. He
lay in his fancy apartment surrounded by stained drug
paraphernalia, empty liquor
bottles and unconscious
hangers-on reek-
ing of sex and
sweat. The
sight dizzied him. He had to step out onto his balcony. There,
he turned his face to the sky, and in that moment, the Un-
conquered Sun spoke to him. He commanded Panther to go
forth and make the world a righteous place as he (Panther)
knew best. Sudden clarity overwhelmed Panther, and he
realized what a shallow, worthless life he led. In a daze, he
leapt from his balcony and walked out of Nexus into the
depths of the East.
The moment he realizes what a failure of spirit and morality he is, he exalts. So, both are needed. And, notably, again, Unconquered Sun directly visits him in a vision, and charges him with a mission. That's not a unique thing. Solars are here to save the world and elevate mortals. That's the task they are charged with, and at least some of them know it, and most of them can feel it.
And what does he do with the exaltation?
Since his Exaltation, Panther has committed his heart
and strength to redeeming himself for the unrighteous life
he led. The core of his ethical framework, in fact, is to think
about what might have seemed easiest or most satisfying to
his old self and do the opposite of that. Thus does he hope
to eventually redeem himself for his sinfulness and gain the
moral high ground whence a man can justifiably preach of
righteousness. By the same token, he believes that any Exalt
can be redeemed, no matter how wicked he or she might be
at the moment. It might take wicked mortals a few reincarna-
tions to get it right, but the Exalted may change their ways
in a single lifetime so long as they have dedicated guidance
from those around them.
Summary: penitent hero on the path to righteousness and enlightenment. Only got exalted when he realized how bad a person he was. Is actively working to redeem himself.
Life history:
When Wind was still a boy, he dreamed of living the life
of an itinerant Immaculate monk, exploring the Threshold
for lost holy texts and Shogunate artifacts. He gave himself
to the Palace Sublime at a young age, where he made good
friends and devoted himself to the study and emulation of
the teachings of Mela, the Immaculate Dragon of Air. The
Elemental Dragons' grace was denied him—at least in this
incarnation, he consoled himself—but by early adulthood,
he had made himself into a strong, competent monk and left
the Palace Sublime with two Immaculate cohorts in search
of the lost ruins of the past. He was only a mortal, but he
wouldn't have traded the life he led for anything short of a
Terrestrial Exaltation.
Quite similar to Karal - a mortal in dragon-blooded society, fails to exalt, makes the best of themselves on the righteous and selfless path.
Circumstances of exaltation:
Desire is not destiny, however, and Wind was forced to
sacrifice the life he wanted for the life the Unconquered Sun
wanted for him. It happened when he and his two friends were
doing research in Gethamane. Every night of their sojourn
there, another local was murdered in horrific fashion. Wind
found someone he thought was the culprit, but the one he
blamed for the acts was actually a Lunar Exalt investigating
the same murders. When the vicious creature responsible
for the horrors revealed itself, Wind made a fateful deci-
sion: Rather than attacking the "Anathema," he stood by
the Lunar's side and attacked the monster. Power flooded
into him, and when the creature lay dead, Wind real-
ized that he radiated an intense golden light. The
voice of the Unconquered Sun spoke to him, and he
knew that his old life was over. The Unconquered
Sun's blessing changed Wind's life and revealed the
truth beneath the lies of the Immaculate Order.
Now, Wind has not only the power to defeat
the unrighteous, but also the purpose and
potential that the Immaculate Order's
delusions would have squandered. He is
grateful to the Unconquered Sun for this
blessing and considers it his duty to prove
that the god invested it wisely.
He demonstrated the ability to discard dogma and preconceived notions for the evidence in front of him to save people from monsters. That earned him his exaltation. As others of his caste, had a direct visitation by the Sun.
Summary: hero.
Life history:
Arianna was never a nice little girl. A life of quiet marital
servitude to some piggish oaf and his snotty, demanding brats
was not for her. At age 14, when her parents announced that
they'd chosen her a husband, she ran away, haring north
out of the Hundred Kingdoms in search of a more enlight-
ened society. She thought she'd found it in the Northern
city of Rylea, which claimed to have the grandest library
of ancient lore in the entire region. Arianna made her way
there and did her best to insinuate herself into the society of
the scholars in residence. In trying to do so, she found that
Rylea was a chauvinist kingdom no more enlightened than
her own home despite the treasure trove of knowledge its
library offered. The scholars were too proud to accept her
as one of their own but plenty willing to let her stay on as
a serving girl. One even tried to make a biddable mistress
of her. She told the scholar's wife, who—it turned out—
had a notorious temper and a father connected to Rylea's
criminal underground. That scholar was never seen again,
and none of the others approached Arianna with similar
intentions thereafter.
So far, the least righteous of them all and the most selfish. Still, she is characterized by trying to find a place for herself that would appreciate her on her merit and talent, not her gender or circumstances of birth. That's fairly respectable.
Circumstances of exaltation:
That settled, Arianna proved herself a quick study with
as sharp a mind as any man at the library had. She read and
studied in the hours not devoted to cooking and cleaning,
always assuming that her intellect would eventually win the
scholars over and earn her a place among them. In all the
years she spent there, that never happened. Fortunately,
before she snapped and made something regrettable happen
to another of Rylea's most respected men, a higher author-
ity elevated Arianna to the station she'd worked so hard to
achieve. It came over her not in a bonfire of Essence or in
the heat of battle, but in a subtle moment as she puzzled
out the subtext in an innocuous-seeming book that none
of the other Rylean scholars had deemed important. She
knew from earlier readings exactly what she had become
and that the Immaculate Order's "Anathema" label was a
self-aggrandizing sham.
Again, true neutral. "Achieve great feat, get exalted".
Characterization post-exaltation:
Arianna is a self-absorbed woman, driven to retake
every right and advantage to which she feels her Exaltation
entitles her. In her pursuit of that goal, she will stop at noth-
ing short of betraying those of her associates who can best
help her achieve it. Those associates currently include her
circlemates—Dace, Panther, Harmonious Jade and Swan.
Of them, she most appreciates the Eclipse Caste, Swan, who
saved her life, has proven himself a competent sidekick and
seems the least inclined to argue with her when she's trying
to get things done. Her feelings for her circlemates are based
more on respect than honest affection, however.
Summary: not a hero, but not a villain either. True neutral to lawful evil, I would wager? Still has principles, and is capable of respecting others.
Life history:
Were Jasara of a mind to find contentment in idle plea-
sures, she could have lived a blissful life in one of the Second
Age's most wondrous cities. At that life's end, however, she
would have died forgotten, having made no contribution to the welfare of Creation. She certainly never would have
Exalted. Fortunately for her, and for Creation, idleness is not in her nature.
Born to a Guild factor's mistress, Jasara was raised
in Chiaroscuro in the old city west of the harbor. She
was a lovely child, growing up surrounded by First
Age amenities in one of the city's least ruined and
most prosperous neighborhoods. Nothing was denied
her, from the most skillful tutors to the finest foods
to the best clothes and cleverest playmates—all the
advantages her mother would have wanted in her
own childhood. Yet, even from an early age, Jasara's
mind was ravenous. She bored easily. Easy city liv-
ing stifled her, and having things handed to her
was no challenge. In her daydreams, she planned
to run away and be a scavenger lord or a bandit
princess or a wandering thaumaturge or an actor
or a circus acrobat…
To keep her occupied (and safe at home),
Jasara's mother filled their home with books and
scrolls and other such materials, which Jasara devoured
almost as fast as they showed up. It worked for a while,
but Jasara's teenage heart could not be contained so
easily. When she felt she was old enough to take care
of herself, she made secret trips all over the city to
meet scholars and workers and rogues of all stripes
who could teach her more than she could ever learn in
books. Languages, trades, thaumaturgy… until she could
figure out what one thing she wanted to do for the rest of
her life, she would try a little bit of everything. She even
experimented with the Dereth lifestyle off and on, though
she could never quite figure out its appeal.
A brighter mirror to Arianna, a child born to wealth who wasn't content to sit idly.
Circumstances of exaltation:
Jasara's aimless search throughout Chiaroscuro for her
life's path eventually led her into the less safe and more
ruined parts of the old city. Dodging the unsavory scaven-
gers, vicious squatters and hungry ghosts who preyed on the
unwary there was a thrill at first, but the thrill soon became
a calling. It happened the day she discovered the tower.
A preliminary geomantic study of an area deep in the
ruins revealed a confluence of dragon lines, on which
she found a First Age structure that had withstood
the destruction that had befallen the rest of its
neighborhood. It drew her to it, guiding her unerr-
ingly through the rubble into a maze of mirrors and
crystal at its base. In a dreamlike trance, she followed
ghostly images of a strangely familiar blond-haired boy
through the maze to a staircase at its center. At the top of
the stairs, Jasara found herself in an automated library that
came alive around her. It spoke to her in the language of
the Old Realm—which she had only ever seen written but
never heard spoken aloud—welcoming her by the sobriquet
"Copper Spider." It was not until Jasara caught a glimpse of
herself in one of the crystal walls and saw the glowing mark
on her forehead that she understood what it meant and what
she had become.
That's some acausal fate shenanigans going here. Or maybe not, and it's just flowery language. Still, also a neutral exaltation, but with a positive tint to it.
Summary: not a hero exactly directly, but a neutral good character. It's spelled directly: it's fortunate both for her and for Creation that she exalted. She's one of the good ones.
Life history:
Sayn's mother was the exiled illegitimate
daughter of a Dynast. When her family ostra-
cized her as a worthless by-blow, she sought shelter
and anonymity at an insignificant Southwest-
ern village too small to even have a name.
Sayn's father was the smith for that village,
who had lived there every day of his
life and intended to die there. From
his mother, Sayn learned to read and
write and work mathematics. From
his father, Sayn learned
the skills of
the smith's
trade and the satisfac-
tion to be found in hard
work done well. Tragically,
his parents both died in a local epi-
demic of wasting fever when Sayn was
16, leaving the village's livelihood more
or less in his hands. With his surviving
friends and neighbors counting on him
and the peaceful rest of his parents'
souls depending on him, he took up
his father's hammer and assumed the
man's place at the forge. He toiled
there for decades, growing stronger
and more skilled as life in the vil-
lage went on. It was the life of a
Child of Earth, but a secure one
to which Sayn felt himself well
suited.
Pretty heroic already. Someone who looks after his people, and tries to help.
Circumstances of exaltation:
A merciless drought struck the land, parching nearby villages
and slowly sucking the life from his own. All he could do
was work tirelessly at his forge, but he yearned for the skill
to do something, anything, to save his home. In desperation,
he even cried out for mercy to the
Unconquered Sun, whose relentless heat
seemed the cause of the region's immi-
nent ruin. And in that desperation, Sayn
received an answer. Blue and red fires of
Essence leapt out from his body, filling him
with power and reminding him of ancient
days when the Chosen of the Sun ruled
the world. Flush with energy and
ancient memories, Sayn stalked
away from his smithy to a section of
the cliff overlooking the village.
There, with one mighty blow of
his heavy hammer, he freed a river
that had been trapped and buried
beneath the cliff face since time
out of mind.
"Save my people, oh Sun!" he cried, and the Sun responded "Take this gift, and save them with your own hands". A hero as much as anyone is. And not one to become a warlord:
Once they'd drunk their fill
and tired themselves out splash-
ing in the icy water like children,
the grateful villagers would have
made Sayn a king or a warlord
if he'd asked them to. Yet, the
smith knew that only ruin
lay in that self-indulgent
direction. Instead, he
asked only that they let
him remain there among
them as their smith and
spiritual leader. He longed
to try to re-create the wonders that he could barely remember
from the First Age and to build new ones that would serve
the people of Creation as never before, but he would need
peace and space for such work.
Summary: hero
Life history:
Elias had a
sharp mind, but it seemed he would rather be a rascal than
the good boy his parents wanted him to be. And every year
he got worse instead of growing out of it.
At their wits' end, Elias's parents turned to Shalas,
Elias's shady uncle. He saw the kind of boy Elias was and
gladly agreed to take him in and raise him right. Cowed by
Shalas's commanding presence, Elias feared he was in for
years of stentorian, militaristic tyranny. He was not, however,
as good a judge of character as Shalas was. Forgoing strict
discipline, Shalas honed Elias's sharp mind with ciphers,
foreign customs and games of strategy instead. He equipped
Elias not with the useless skills of an effete noble, but the
subtle arsenal of a sophisticated spy. When his training was
complete, Elias joined Shalas as his aide in the Ears of the
North—the Haslanti League's espionage service.
They worked together in the
Speakers of Zephyr and Storm, car-
rying out espionage missions under
the aegis of the Haslanti diplomatic
corps. Elias got to travel and serve his
country, and Uncle Shalas treated him
like an important grownup. Then, in
just a few short years, he actually was
an important grownup poised to take
over when Shalas retired.
Circumstances of exaltation:
If not for the intervention of the
Unconquered Sun in Elias's 23rd year,
however, that would never have happened. While on a
daring mission into Cherak, Elias and Shalas were caught
and thrown in a dungeon by a Dragon-Blooded agent of the
All-Seeing Eye. Slow torture and death seemed all that lay in
their future—assuming they didn't break and make themselves
traitors to the League, of course—until Elias's destiny came
due. An array of preternatural abilities became available
to him, and with them, he was able to affect his and
his uncle's escape. They eventually made their way
back home and reported to the Council of Oligarchs
everything that had happened. The Oligarchs were
skeptical at first, but Shalas smoothed the way,
and Elias convinced them that his loyalty lay
with the League and that all his powers were
at their disposal. They remained wary, but
the opportunity presented by having such
an operative in their employ was too good
to pass up.
Summary: Is James Bond a hero? To the people of Great Britain for sure. To, say, Afghani or USSR citizens that's arguable. I would put him in "neutral" area, closer to Dace, and above Arianna in morality. Notably, however, he doesn't try to take over.
Life history:
she grew
up a slave to a snakeman named Nisius Chen, but he
didn't buy her for sex or hard labor. No, he trained her
to be the star acrobat in the five-ring Gerontine Circus,
of which he was the ringleader. He also trained her to be
a cat burglar, using her to wring more money out of the
towns the Gerontine visited than mere ticket sales and
concessions could ever drum up. Nisius even let
her set aside her cut of the criminal proceeds
toward buying her eventual free-
dom. Faka Kun eagerly
took every job Nisius
suggested, hop-
ing to one
day make
her way
to White
Refuge—the free
Djala enclave out in
the Southern desert. She was
not the first Djala acrobat
Nisius had worked into an
early grave chasing that
dream, but unrealistic
hope was better than
no hope at all.
A child slave working towards her liberation. And exalting in its pursuit:
It was in pursuit
of White Refuge that
Faka Kun came to
recognize her Celestial
destiny. The circus was
performing in the Lap,
and she was trying
to lift a set of jade
razor claws from
the imperial sa-
trap's mansion. She got in all right and
even managed to find the razor claws, but she
tripped an alarm on the way out. At that moment, she
could have surrendered or relinquished her prize, but she
didn't do either. Her freedom was riding on getting out
with the goods—she had to try. As she made her deci-
sion, a rush of conviction accompanied it. The Laplander
guards quickly cornered her, but they were no match for
the Unconquered Sun's newest Night Caste.
But not a selfish child, instead one earning her title of "Liberator":
Faka Kun returned home reinvigorated, but she didn't
go straight to Nisius. Instead, she went to her fellow slaves
and told them what had happened. It broke her heart to
see the spirit drain from their faces as they listened to her.
That was it, they said. She would disappear from their lives
to go do… whatever the Exalted did… but they would still
be slaves until they died. So Faka Kun made the second
fateful decision of that evening. Rather than take her prize
to Nisius and buy her freedom with it, she kept it and stole
the Djala out of the Gerontine instead. When word of
the theft at the satrap's mansion reached Nisius,
he had not a slave left to his name. When word
of that theft got to him shortly thereafter,
Faka Kun had returned once more for
the circus's cash box.
...
To her surprise
as much as theirs, she
gave the leftover money
to the keepers of the Djala
enclave as soon as she got
there and turned around to
leave once more. There were still
more Djala out there with no-
body looking out for them, she
explained, not to mention too
many rich fools with nobody
looking out for their money. If
she didn't do anything about that, nobody would.
Summary: a hero and liberator of her people
Life history:
He was a respectful, pragmatic funerist
in the Morticians' Order of Sijan. It was his duty to observe
the proper rites to placate the dead, and he was content to
remain in the bleak city until the day his future replace-
ment performed the old familiar rites over him.
An upstanding member of society.
Exaltation story is interesting, but honestly doesn't give enough info on his heroism:
The heart-wrenching flare occurred in Jiunan's 23rd year,
on the day a delegation from Port Calin brought a woman to
Sijan to die. She seemed no older than Jiunan and in
no worse health, and she was beautiful. All the living
are beautiful in that city, but she shone like the stars
on a moonless night. As her escorts led her to the
mortwrights, Jiunan followed silently. She remained
in their care for some time, and all Jiunan could do
was wait, hoping to catch one last glimpse of her.
Shortly, a second delegation arrived. It consisted
of four armored nemissaries and a terrible figure in
white robes and a broad, conical hat of woven bones.
The figure carried a gruesome battle-axe of moan-
ing soulsteel. His name was White Bone Sinner—a
deathknight envoy of the Walker in Darkness.
The deathknight summoned a deadspeaker
and the Calinti woman's guards and with-
drew to speak to the mortwrights. Hours
later, the Calinti guards departed with
expressions equally disturbed and
relieved. The deathknight's party
departed later. The Calinti woman
left with them.
Jiunan's heart skipped. His
breath caught. Alive, the wom-
an had been beautiful; dead, she
was simply impossible. Hope-
lessly rapt, Jiunan followed
the grim party across Sijan,
working up his courage. The
shadows seemed to deepen and
move with him as he crept ever
closer. Finally, before the delegation could make
it across the Bridge of the Fallen and disappear
into the Underworld, Jiunan caught up and took
the Calinti woman's cold, dead hand. He had
only enough time to ask her if she wanted to go
with the deathknight. She shook her head, and
the look in her eyes burned itself into Jiunan's memory
as a golden ring flashed into existence on his forehead.
So, it's a story of love and death knights.
Summary: not enough to say, I think, about his general heroism, but not evil either.
Life history:
As a youth, he had
made good money aboard a merchant dunerunner traversing
the sandy trade routes of the Sun's Sea. As an adult, he had
become a respected captain of his own trusty dunerunner,
claiming his own trade routes and forging strong relation-
ships in the desert communities they connected. By early
middle age, he had made himself an admiral, organizing
the comings and goings of
a fleet—though from a
desk rather than the
deck of a far-traveling
vessel. When he finally
reached retirement
age and could settle
down in comfort,
he did so with
a light heart.
Never once had he mortgaged his honor, neither out of fear
nor for the rush of easy jade. Of his many accomplishments,
the one of which he was most proud was helping to engineer
the gradual transformation of the loose community of like-
minded traders at Oasis, the aptly named desert community
where he lived, into a strong mercantile confederation of
good-natured commercial pioneers.
And again, and again, and again - honorful, respected. Worthy. Jack the Rippers, and Jokers don't become exalts. Lenins and Chingis Khans might, but raving lunatics don't.
Anyway, moving on. Circumstances of exalting:
Sand could not say now when he realized that
things were out of control. He simply looked around
one day and saw that his bright, peaceful Oasis was now
shabby, its people petty, its fountains dribbling dirty water.
And it wasn't just Oasis that was in decline. The news from
outside showed that the rest of the South was headed the
same way. Perhaps all of Creation was slowly coming un-
done. It had to be stopped, Sand realized, and in a moment
of clarity, he saw how that could be accomplished. Starting
at Oasis, he could set the world on a path to righteousness.
First, he would have to confront those who had let his home
come to its current deplorable state. He burst in on a raucous
meeting of the young dons, demanding that they answer for
their sins and sloth. They wanted to dismiss him as a raving
old man past his prime, but his fury was undeniable. So too
was the white-gold ring-and-circle mark upon his forehead
and the gleaming saber of sunlight that had appeared in his
hand. Minutes later, more than two-thirds of the dons lay
dead. The rest were too terrified to flee. With his newfound
power, he bound them in oaths of obligation, taking control
of the confederation he had helped to found. In no time at
all, he had cleaned up and restored Oasis and reinvigorated
its commercial pioneers once more.
This one is a visionary, and his motivation reflects this:
Summary: if he succeeds, he is sure to be called a hero, and his motivation in noble. In its pursuit, I expect, rivers of blood will flow. Still, I would say he's a hero, for he is sincerely not doing it for himself but for all Creation.
Yeah, it's Arianna all over again, and the ?, the Righteous Devil. Not enough to tell, but read it and think for yourself:
Once upon a time, a rich Guild factor in the city of
Port Calin had a lovely young daughter who was his pride
and joy. She had a quick mind, a nimble body, a good heart
and a pretty face. The factor wanted nothing more than for
his lovely girl to take up the family business and become a
rich Guild factor herself. But the girl loved art and beauty
more than money, and she fled Port Calin for
Nexus, the City of 10,000 Sins. Free of her
father's unrealistic expectations, she lived
there happily ever after.
Once upon a time, there lived a beautiful
and talented actress in Nexus,
the poisoned heart of the
Scavenger Lands. She
deigned to fall in
love with a poet
and be his muse,
but he took ill and
began to waste
away before her
eyes. Her inspira-
tion, the actress knew,
was driving her beloved
into an early grave. The
poet had not yet composed
the masterpiece that was
worthy of being the last thing
he would ever write, so the
actress abandoned him. (As
much as she loved him,
the actress loved his talent
more.) The poet's tears fell on
his sickbed, and his withered
hand clutched at the air
where she had been. The
poet never died, and the
actress lived happily
ever after.
Circumstances of exaltation:
Once upon a
time, there lived a
woman who toured
the Scavenger Lands
in a traveling carnival
with those who considered
themselves her peers. Addicted to
bright morning and to the adulation of
an amazed crowd, the performer desired to spin for
the gods of Great Forks a glorious tale that would
win her their adoring patronage. In that tale, she
was partnered with a dishonest carnival barker who used his
legitimate travels to conceal criminal activities. The heroic
champions of Great Forks uncovered this illicit activity
in the tale's second act—as heroic champions inevitably
do—and confronted the criminal partners. While speaking
in her defense, the performer was dramatically, perhaps
conveniently, graced by the Unconquered Sun and spoke
so eloquently that the Spinner of Glorious Tales himself
came to listen. The duplicitous barker was executed for his
crimes, but the unknowing performer saw to it that the rest
of the carnival's crew was spared. Talespinner took her in
to educate her, and she lived happily ever after.
Summary: Hydra Dominatus! No, seriously, her text ends with "…if any of these stories are true.". Alpharius of current exalted crop. Might be very heroic. Might be entirely selfish and evil. We don't know.
Life history:
His father was a career naval officer in the Coral Ar-
chipelago, but the sailor's life was not for Swan. Instead, he
chose to join the diplomatic corps. It offered all the glory
and civil service with none of the blood-
shed. While his elder brothers
became sailors and marines,
and his sister cemented
a political alliance
through marriage,
Swan learned his-
tory, culture,
geography, poli-
tics, outdoor
survival and
martial arts.
When his adult
life dawned, he
left home as
a junior dip-
lomat to work
his nation's will
in the world at
large. He trav-
eled, he bargained,
he maneuvered, he mingled. He was every bit the Coral
Archipelago's romantic ideal of
the heroic traveling diplomat.
I highlited the key part "the very romantic ideal of a hero".
The circumstance of the exaltation are a bit sketchy, to be honest:
One can't train for everything,
though, which Swan learned one evening
by a roadside through a Northern forest. As
he rounded a bend, a proud, graceful rider on a
glittering horse of pure Essence came fleeing his
way from a pack of armed and armored Dragon-
Bloods. She was Anathema; they constituted
a Wyld Hunt. Yet, something happened in
Swan's mind, and the utter temerity of
Terrestrials daring to take up arms
against their betters outraged him
as it had once before in a time
he couldn't remember. Rather
than stand aside or flee,
he interposed himself
between the Dragon-
Bloods and their prey
before they could
land a killing blow.
His courage must
have impressed the
Unconquered Sun, for that great god's power suddenly
flooded into him and gave him the ability to make his stand
matter. He and the once-fleeing Solar—whose name was
Arianna—turned the tables on the Wyld Hunt and killed
them side by side.
But his motivations are clear:
He has some inkling now
of why the Dragon-Blooded
did what they did to bring
about the end of the First
Age, and he's glad of that
knowledge. Perhaps
he can use it to keep
the same thing from
happening all over
again. Perhaps, if he
and others like him
work hard enough,
the Third Age can
outshine the previous
two and last forever.
Swan has an in-
tense desire to make
his family back in the
Coral Archipelago proud
of him. That feeling drove
him to join the Coral diplo-
matic corps originally, as he
didn't want his distaste for the
military lifestyle to seem like a
disappointing weakness in his father's
eyes. (He could still be a well-traveled
man of action as a junior diplomat, but
he wouldn't have to kill people to make a
point.) His aims are grander now that he's
Exalted, but his feelings still hark back to
his family on the rare occasions when
he isn't sure what to do.
Summary: "The very ideal of a heroic deplomat" - do I need to say more?
Life story and exaltation story all at once:
Yurgen Kaneko was a member of an icewalker tribe of the farthest North. He had been a great hunter, warrior and leader of his tribe, but now he was old. Alive beyond his time, he walked out onto the ice alone, weaponless, to find death. Instead, he found his rebirth.
Willing to commit suicide for the good of his people, he instead gets a chance to serve his people more. With it, he helps his people to protect themselves, and, yes, raid their neighbors:
A Child of the Sun, Yurgen found that his age no longer mattered. His body was strong, and his mind was sharp. His people listened when he spoke, and with his skill at war, he led them to many victories. His tribe savaged the soft men ofthe cities and fought off the raids of the Fair Folk and the dead. Impressed by his power, other icewalker tribes joined him. When the Wyld Hunt came, as Yurgen knew it would, he led them through the Silver Wastes and the Snow Blossom Cascades, regions that the icewalkers knew well. Weakening the Hunt with his great endurance, Yurgen assaulted the Dragon-Bloods at their moment of weakness.
Summary: Hero to his people.
Life and exaltation story:
As a baby, Harmonious Jade was sold into slavery to the Salmalin, a cult in the South dedicated to the worship of the Yozis. Trained in the arts of assassination from the time she could walk, Jade became an accomplished killer for hire, and every murder she committed added to the coffers of the demon cult. Knowing nothing else, the assassin Jade was content doing what she was trained to do for her masters in the Salmalin, until a botched assignment led her to be Exalted by the Unconquered Sun.
The least heroic of them all, I think. A worse version of Faka Kun the liberator. And still an assassin:
Still unsure of what to do with her newfound power, and with no guidance forthcoming from the Unconquered Sun, Jade has continued to ply her trade as an assassin. Her services are in high demand, for there are few who can defend themselves from a Night Caste determined to bring about their deaths. However, over the course of her Exalted career, Harmonious Jade has made many enemies, from the Salmalin and their demonic patrons to the Deathlord Walker in Darkness and Nexus's Council of Entities. Unless she finds allies and direction, it seems unlikely given the strength of the enemies arrayed against her that she'll survive long enough to fulfill the purpose for which she was Exalted.
Summary: a lost child who somehow got awesome cosmic power. Not a hero (yet).
So, to summarize, out of 17 examples canonically provided, there are only two who I would say are definiteily not heroic in the modern sense - Arianna and Harmonious Jade. For Mirror Flag we don't know the truth enough, but her activities seem heroic. For Jiunan Nightwarden we plainly don't know enough at all. Dace, Bull of the North and Elias Tremalion are heroes to their people, and not so good to others.
Almost all of them (safe for Harmonius Jade, really) are described in various terms as "respectable". Generous interpretation would leave us with 88% heroes, and the worst interpretation would give us 59% pure heroes, with 12% selfish potential monsters and the rest somewhere in the middle (but leaning good, I think).
20% (Zeniths) get direct quests and enlightenment by UC. That's the minimum who are directly selected on the basis of their morality and character.
Whatever else is written, the actual examples provided indicate that solar exaltations overwhelmingly go to heroic people. In the modern f*cking sense. To those who are respectable by others, place others before themselves, strive to establish and maintain a working human society. Who value others and the world. Yog, signing out.
Now, I have to go and do analysis of the f*cking Greek myth to demonstrate that 'hero in the Greek sense" is still a f*cking hero.
Now do Desus, and explain the multiple genocides committed between the defeat of the primordials and the actual application of the curse. Those were unnecessary and came from nothing but their own desire for vengeance.
The issue at hand is not that solars don't do good; that was never in dispute. In my mind the issues are:
1) What happens when a bad actor gets one, and how likely is that?
2) Even when someone isn't an overt enemy, what happens when you give 700 people that much power over everyone else?
To an extent this is tied to how you define bad actor. You've repeatedly stated that being willing to not try killing all of reality is enough, which I emphatically disagree with.
You marked down multiple examples as "heroes to their people" that I think prove my point. Someone looks up one day, sees they don't like how things are going, and starts killing and seizing the reins of power to make things go the way they want to.
That they did it for creation of their people is of great comfort to the people they hurt, especially because they don't have to be right to get an exaltation.
To put this in explicit historical context, I think Andrew Jackson has about the same claim to an exaltation Koneko did. The guy fought bravely in multiple wars, wasn't afraid to duel people over his beliefs, and did whatever he thought he had to for the sake of advancing the interests of his people. His ultimate success is a large part of why he's on the $20 bill.
What kind of stuff did he think was necessary? This. And many, many, things like it.
Dawn Andrew Jackson wouldn't destroy the world, but he'd still be alive today, with all the violence and social magic he needed to push his agenda even further.
As a baseline he was famous for things like telling the Supreme Court to stuff it so he could keep pulling his bullshit. He was sure he was right and so their opinions didn't matter, only if they could physically stop him.
So far I haven't seen a compelling argument from you about why people like this wouldn't qualify or what to do about them when it happened. Or rather what you've said is to accept it as long as they also kill Outsiders and refuse to work with the devil, which I find intolerable.
I don't see a contradiction between generally having faith in humanity as a whole, but specifically being concerned about the consequences of the well recorded people who don't live up to it getting this sort of power.
Where's the line for what qualifies as too much? What will the consequences look like when we have to try putting someone down? Is this necessary, or can progress be made without subjecting people to this?
No, blaming Great Curse doesn't go far enough. It's the f*cking Great Curse. The most subtle, and yet overwhelmingly evil curse in the existence of Creation, a final cry for revenge from spiteful creator beings who used their last breath to drag down their creation into oblivion and eternal suffering with them. It pervaded every piece of the winning society, inflicting upon anyone and everyone with even a shred of power. Lunars were cursed. Solars were cursed. Sidereals were cursed. Dragonblooded were cursed. Everyone and everything bore the stamp of the Great Curse, with only mortals spared its direct effect. That the First Age lasted as long as it did and was as good as it was described is a testament to the heroic nature of exalted, to the best nature of humanity. You don't get to dismiss it like that.
I'm not dismissing it entirely, there's a point past which they were being driven mad. But the great curse wasn't mind control, it was a subtle enhancement of what was already there intended to tip the scales long term. That's why no one noticed it in time.
Much of what the solars did was entirely on them, like the immediate aftermath of the war when the curse had in turns not been cast or had not been given time to work.
My point isn't that all Solars are like this, or that they don't do good things. That has never been in dispute and no amount of examples of them being cool change anything.
Your point, as I understand it, is that solars who turn out like Desus are the inevitable outcome, or at least so likely that it's not worth it trying to have solars around and better to try surviving as a species without them. That's the premise I disagree with.
Now do Desus, and explain the multiple genocides committed between the defeat of the primordials and the actual application of the curse. Those were unnecessary and came from nothing but their own desire for vengeance.
What does Desus have to do with this? The argument we (or at least I) are having is about the question "do solar exaltations choose heroic people?". Desus's many sins over millenia suffering from the consequence of three sphere cataclysm and the effects of great curse have no relevance to this discussion. Even the most saintly person can eventually go batshit insane evil (unless some absolute effects are involved, I guess). That's not what the discussion is about. It's about who gets chosen.
Are they bad agents at the moment they get picked up? On the face of it, the probability of this is below 12%, arguably 0 even (we don't actually see outright evil picks in the canon lineup).
You marked down multiple examples as "heroes to their people" that I think prove my point. Someone looks up one day, sees they don't like how things are going, and starts killing and seizing the reins of power to make things go the way they want to.
Question is - are they killing because that's the only solution they see, or are they killing because they just plain love killing and are unwilling to look for other solutions or talk to others? If the first one, we can resolve those issues in most cases. If it's the latter, then they are, in fact, bad actors and can be removed.
You seem to forget, or intentionally miss, that Solars and other exalts aren't just supernaturally strong. They are also supernaturally smart, supernaturally insightful, supernaturally capable of predicting the results of their, and others' action, including via prophecy. They have more tools to resolve their conflicts not just in violent way. The greater ability to reach compromises between each other, to broker deals, to establish order that benefits everyone, not just themselves.
Keep in mind that we will be rather weakened during this.
Hitting out multiple Exellencies (that only last 4 minutes per use) is going to drain our Essence faster than the bleach-bath can restore it, which is why either breaks between phonecalls or an additional resting-time, like the 12 instead of 9 hours, are important.
You seem to forget, or intentionally miss, that Solars and other exalts aren't just supernaturally strong. They are also supernaturally smart, supernaturally insightful, supernaturally capable of predicting the results of their, and others' action, including via prophecy. They have more tools to resolve their conflicts not just in violent way. The greater ability to reach compromises between each other, to broker deals, to establish order that benefits everyone, not just themselves.
They are also more stubborn than the average human, to the point that literally every Exalt in the book can reinforce their base Intimacies to be unchangeable. Also in high average WP of course.
People with easy options for violence or social and mental manipulation won't necessarily stop and reconsider if they hit an obstacle on the way to their goals.
Hate to use the obvious examples, but if you got a Dawn from someone currently fighting in any of the ongoing wars, either now or in 2007, do you think that their natural plan would be to stop the war, or to win it?
For me an obvious example of a Dawn Solar would be Alexander the Great. Who for all his greatness didn't really achieve much beyond his conquests, didn't leave much behind besides an already breaking empire. Conquest for the sake of your country and ambitions that led nowhere.
Certainly great, but not someone we need or want today.
Your point, as I understand it, is that solars who turn out like Desus are the inevitable outcome, or at least so likely that it's not worth it trying to have solars around and better to try surviving as a species without them. That's the premise I disagree with.
Solars who turn out like him, who are toxic in other lesser ways, or simply use their power for personal gain. Which is what happened in canon with the exaltations multiple times.
The fundamental disagreement here is that I don't see empowering some humans as the same as empowering humanity as a whole.
See the white council, which is also made up of exceptional people given centuries to grow and practice magic. Whose power shakes the earth and even the strongest players in the setting have to at least keep an eye on. Dresden alone reshaped the supernatural scene for the better in the decades leading up to the major events of canon just by being active in Chicago where other wizards didn't care to.
Solars aren't the retiring type; but handing a small group of people power means that their interests will be served by it, good or bad, and nothing else.
We can try something new instead of repeating the same old shit and begging the big powerful guy to come save us in exchange for being able to do whatever they want and be called virtuous for it.
What does Desus have to do with this? The argument we (or at least I) are having is about the question "do solar exaltations choose heroic people?". Desus's many sins over millenia suffering from the consequence of three sphere cataclysm and the effects of great curse have no relevance to this discussion. Even the most saintly person can eventually go batshit insane evil (unless some absolute effects are involved, I guess). That's not what the discussion is about. It's about who gets chosen.
Pretty sure he was always an asshole, and the point it that solars are still human. The selection criteria doesn't pick people on some objective scale of goodness. Andrew Jackson and the Bull of the North being heroes to their people didn't stop them from doing awful things to others.
But this is another thing to talk about if you want to. If even the most saintly can go mad with time and trauma what about the ones who aren't paragons of virtue specifically given thousands of years?
Question is - are they killing because that's the only solution they see, or are they killing because they just plain love killing and are unwilling to look for other solutions or talk to others? If the first one, we can resolve those issues in most cases. If it's the latter, then they are, in fact, bad actors and can be removed.
You seem to forget, or intentionally miss, that Solars and other exalts aren't just supernaturally strong. They are also supernaturally smart, supernaturally insightful, supernaturally capable of predicting the results of their, and others' action, including via prophecy. They have more tools to resolve their conflicts not just in violent way. The greater ability to reach compromises between each other, to broker deals, to establish order that benefits everyone, not just themselves.
Remember when we had to have a vote on if Molly would still dogmatically hate drugs of all types? Or when the thread consensus was that moving home was a good plan and we had to roll willpower to actually do it?
You're effectively hoping for people to exalt and then roll academics to abandon their beliefs to take up yours. Even if and when they do re-examine things that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to pick a conclusion you'd like or stop intentionally lying to themselves.
To continue the example an entirely congruent but still awful position for Dawn Jackson to take after realizing his racial beliefs were wrong is to conclude that his civilization is still better as he measures value and in any case benefits him personally to promote the power of. Prompting him to continue his ethnic cleansing while still fitting the champion of (a) civilization thing you and DP were just talking about.
The solars did exactly this themselves prior to the curse really taking root, it wouldn't exactly be a deviation.
What you seem to forget, or intentionally miss, is that people bring their baggage with them wherever they go and however they get there.
They are also more stubborn than the average human, to the point that literally every Exalt in the book can reinforce their base Intimacies to be unchangeable. Also in high average WP of course.
People with easy options for violence or social and mental manipulation won't necessarily stop and reconsider if they hit an obstacle on the way to their goals.
Hate to use the obvious examples, but if you got a Dawn from someone currently fighting in any of the ongoing wars, either now or in 2007, do you think that their natural plan would be to stop the war, or to win it?
For me an obvious example of a Dawn Solar would be Alexander the Great. Who for all his greatness didn't really achieve much beyond his conquests, didn't leave much behind besides an already breaking empire. Conquest for the sake of your country and ambitions that led nowhere.
Certainly great, but not someone we need or want today.
That is true. But, in Alexander's example, he'd also get access to solar bureaucracy and other related charms and abilities. Chances are his Empire would be the shining jewel of civilization that would stand for a thousand years at least, and be the best place to live on Earth.
And, and this is important, better things were canonically achieved by worse exalts. Think, for a moment, what kind of people solars of the First Age were. What type of society they have been born in. We don't know if War in Heaven lasted more than a mortal generation, so it's hard to tell, but at least some of them would have been born in a world ruled on all levels by inhuman monsters, where "transcendent magical might and divine right" were the only source of legitimacy. The social and technological development of their society, at the start of rebellion, could be anything from stone age to medieval (I think). It had human sacrifice and mass slavery on all levels as normal things. When they grew up, they wouldn't have internalized the values of civil rights, democracy, laws (well, maybe law because one of Primordials was all about that). And what did they do with that cultural basis? They built the golden age.
Chingis Khan is brought up a lot in this discussion. Guess what? Textual evidence suggests that if Chingis Khan, Alexander the Great, and their peers exalted, the outcome would be a golden age of humanity that would last a thousand years and only come down because of the curse of dead gods eroding sanity of everyone involved. Now, imagine what exalts with modern morals and background, and unburdened by Great Curse could do.
Solars who turn out like him, who are toxic in other lesser ways, or simply use their power for personal gain. Which is what happened in canon with the exaltations multiple times.
The fundamental disagreement here is that I don't see empowering some humans as the same as empowering humanity as a whole.
See the white council, which is also made up of exceptional people given centuries to grow and practice magic. Whose power shakes the earth and even the strongest players in the setting have to at least keep an eye on. Dresden alone reshaped the supernatural scene for the better in the decades leading up to the major events of canon just by being active in Chicago where other wizards didn't care to.
Solars aren't the retiring type; but handing a small group of people power means that their interests will be served by it, good or bad, and nothing else.
We can try something new instead of repeating the same old shit and begging the big powerful guy to come save us in exchange for being able to do whatever they want and be called virtuous for it.
Solars are part of humanity. Empowering them is, by definition, empowering humanity. But, leaving that quibble aside, yes, let's look at White Council. Why are they, as bad as they are, a bad or impossible outcome for solars?
And what, exactly, can we try? Unless you have a way to empower the whole of humanity, the choices are "empower no one" and "empower a subset of humanity". I honestly don't see you offering the alternative. "Let us through Molly solve all the issues, never trusting anyone else" is pure misanthropy at work.
Pretty sure he was always an asshole, and the point it that solars are still human. The selection criteria doesn't pick people on some objective scale of goodness. Andrew Jackson and the Bull of the North being heroes to their people didn't stop them from doing awful things to others.
Citation needed, about being asshole (and evil) before he exalted. The selection criteria of at least 20% of exalts is "Unconquered Sun entrusts you with a hole mission on the basis of liking your character". And for most others, they tend to statistically gravitate towards selfless people who wish to help others in one way or another.
But this is another thing to talk about if you want to. If even the most saintly can go mad with time and trauma what about the ones who aren't paragons of virtue specifically given thousands of years?
If you want to talk that (I don't, I think it's useless), then the first question to ask should be "in a world where afterlife exists, why isn't it moral for Molly to genocide humanity as quickly and as painlessly as possible?" That bad things in life exist is not a reason to stop living.
Remember when we had to have a vote on if Molly would still dogmatically hate drugs of all types? Or when the thread consensus was that moving home was a good plan and we had to roll willpower to actually do it?
You're effectively hoping for people to exalt and then roll academics to abandon their beliefs to take up yours. Even if and when they do re-examine things that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to pick a conclusion you'd like or stop intentionally lying to themselves.
To continue the example an entirely congruent but still awful position for Dawn Jackson to take after realizing his racial beliefs were wrong is to conclude that his civilization is still better as he measures value and in any case benefits him personally to promote the power of. Prompting him to continue his ethnic cleansing while still fitting the champion of (a) civilization thing you and DP were just talking about.
The solars did exactly this themselves prior to the curse really taking root, it wouldn't exactly be a deviation.
What you seem to forget, or intentionally miss, is that people bring their baggage with them wherever they go and however they get there.
Except the meme is stupid, and doesn't really apply. That's not how increasing one's attributes and abilities works.
Let me ask you this: do you consider First Age a good or bad place for an average mortal to live in, compared to Dresdenverse (Africa, North Korea and hidden realms in NeverNever controlled by inhmuan overlords included)? Because First Age of Exalted is one of the first failure state outcomes we can expect. Most scenarios are better, because they start from far more favorable conditions.
Let me ask you this: do you consider First Age a good or bad place for an average mortal to live in, compared to Dresdenverse (Africa, North Korea and hidden realms in NeverNever controlled by inhmuan overlords included)? Because First Age of Exalted is one of the first failure state outcomes we can expect. Most scenarios are better, because they start from far more favorable conditions.
It should be noted it took the Exalted Host and the preexisting infrastructure of Creation to make the First Age, you guys are debating freeing one Solar and potentially one Abyssal. I think it might be more worthwhile to consider that in those more personal terms, it's not going to be 300 Celestial Exaltations and tens of thousands of Terrestrial ones
That is true. But, in Alexander's example, he'd also get access to solar bureaucracy and other related charms and abilities. Chances are his Empire would be the shining jewel of civilization that would stand for a thousand years at least, and be the best place to live on Earth.
He could have laid down structures for a more lasting empire, he had the tools. It might have fallen apart anyway, in a generation or two, but he never bothered to try.
Straight from Wikipedia:
Before his death, someone asked Alexander on who would be his designated successor should he die, he responded: "To the strongest one."
It should be noted it took the Exalted Host and the preexisting infrastructure of Creation to make the First Age, you guys are debating freeing one Solar and potentially one Abyssal. I think it might be more worthwhile to consider that in those more personal terms, it's not going to be 300 Celestial Exaltations and tens of thousands of Terrestrial ones
Within that context, and yeah, it's important to remember what's actually happening, the only thing in my mind is how to handle prep and how much resources to commit to it. Worst case scenario we have to quickly locate both the solar and the abyssal across the world, and beat the competition to them. Best case we get the solar immediately (I am partial to trying to present Daniel as a possible candidate), and are either able to prevent Dusk from releasing, or can quickly get to them. Resource-wise, I think using one favor from both Winter and Summer works - that's important enough. Maybe ask them for help not with this one exaltation but with all new exaltations we learn about? Or would that be too much for their favors?
[X] Plan Spiritual retreat
-[X] Call people
--[X] Talk to Arlene that we kept our word about the Blampire
---[X] Ask her to help arranging a meeting with Charon
--[X] Speak to Big Corey about his vampire problem being dealt with and the much bigger problem in his future
-[X] Molly: Rest and Recover 9 hours or less if we recover quicker
--[X] Book connecting hotel suites
---[X]HMP the security cameras/hotel computers to see who, if anyone, comes looking
--[X] Actually retreat into your kingdom
---[X] Do healing while under observation and what help medicae of our kingdom can provide. Even if they can't help now, the knowledge they gain will be helpful later
---[X] Get some heavy duty explosives brought, in case you really need to blow something up. Up to a davy crocket load (~ 20 t of TNT equivalent)
-[X] Cyberdevils: Hack police databases and setup several kingdom exit enabling music over the city
-[X] Everyone else, while Molly recovers
--[X] Speak to Alexander Harrowmont at the University of Las Vegas
--[X] Rest somewhere which doesn't require booking and deals in cash, or in any of your ally bases
[X] Yes
-[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers
--[X] Offer he gets a medical tuneup from Lash if he's coming, just in case
--[X] And a disguise
Finding Sandra isn't a problem. We still have one focus for her. Solving her plans is, and not getting stabbed in the back by angered divinity are. As is preparing for the worst. Som Molly tags out. Gets into kingdom to bring in heavy ordinance if we need to blow up Ctluhu. Gets her people to study how exalts heal agg damage.
EDIT: In your quote, it says "The Iliad is basically the template story of the flawed hero". I tried to understand what "hero" means. Because yes, they are flawed. They are still heroes. Trying to remove "hero" by using the "in the greek sense" excuse changes the message. Hero can have flaws. They overcome them.
Capacity for great good AND evil.
The same Hercules who killed the Hydra is also the same person who wiped out a royal family and sacked their city because the father would not give him his daughter as a concubine.
Canon Exalted heroes dont overcome their flaws.
Thats like a major ongoing theme of the series.
Keep in mind that we will be rather weakened during this.
Hitting out multiple Exellencies (that only last 4 minutes per use) is going to drain our Essence faster than the bleach-bath can restore it, which is why either breaks between phonecalls or an additional resting-time, like the 12 instead of 9 hours, are important.
1) 9 hours to recover and call people while recovering.
She currently has a -1 wound penalty, which will take 2-3 hours to heal to the point where the malus disappears.
After the first 3 hours, she no longer has a wound penalty, and can start making phone calls. If she's soaking in the bath for six hours of that time, recovering 1m every 15 minutes, she has 24m available to burn if she paces herself appropriately.
2) 2 hours to disguise Adkins, get back to the Hanging Gardens for our local guide Mutt, talk to Arlene about Cobbler being dead and how she can help, then drive to and book a hotel suite.
AND call home to reassure them.
3)1 hour wiggle room in case the rest of the party has things they want to do.
CRITICISM
1) Dont split the party in hostile territory. Thats like Murder Hobo 101.
Nobody here should be talking to any of these other people without Molly anyway; she has far and away the best social senses around when she's willing to burn Essence.
And she's the only one here with a surprise negator should a fight/ambush break out.
There are still almost 20 people we know of who have Sandra's hooks in their heads after all; running into a bunch of people at Harrowmont's with modded ARs could cost us people.
2) Opening a Hellgate in Las Vegas to the Brass Courts is magically noisy.
Doing so tells everyone in the Las Vegas area where Molly is lodging; do remember that when Molly showed up in Henderson, it took less than an hour for a tracker team to show up.
This is to be avoided unless we are eschewing subtlety altogether.
3)Going into our Hell to rest cuts us off from affecting events in Las Vegas for almost half a day. Thats a bad plan.
You're basically asking to come back and find everything on fire.
4) This is a metro area of 2.7 million people, not an empty wilderness in the boonies.
Explosives of any sort as part of your plans are a hilariously bad idea even if you were a random Exalt, instead of specifically Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael and Charity and not a fan of collateral damage.
Especially since the city is already on edge after *someone* used a bunch of RPGs on the Vegas Strip last night.
5)We can find Sandra's current location with a Crown question.
Thats not the same thing as being able to follow her around the city.
And she's paranoid enough to be on the move.
Dictators are even closer to baseline humanity than solars are, because they are completely unaltered humans.
Does empowering Kim Jong Un empower the people of North Korea?
People are just people, empower civilization and you empower everyone to some extent and make it possible to govern and keep ourselves in accountable. Give one person unrestricted and independent power and their opinion is ultimately the only one that matters.
There's no distinction worth drawing between a whamp running a country for their own purposes, a social focus solaroid, or between either of them and a baseline save that of capability.
This is why my preferred solution isn't to do nothing, it's to empower mortal civilization so that humans finally get a seat at the table in their own name and not as someone's subjects.
Remember the Shih? They're an ideal, and Holden actually avoided converting some of their rules because he wanted a nerf:
In Appendix One, you've covered the Qiao from De- mon Hunter X, but what about the 6+ dot Qiao in Time of Judgment? Aren't those perfect for EXvWoD?
I reviewed the ToJ apocalypse Qiao, and decided to just leave them untouched and unaddressed. Mostly, it's because some of them are crazy enough that they begin to match or even outshine Exalted Charms, and I'd like the Qiao to remain a supplemental addition to the main Exalted toolkit, rather than a viable replacement for it. If you want to let the Chosen have them, go ahead, it's not like they don't already snap the power curve over their knees as it is. I just think it's more fun if a Solar shakes the Earth with her return because she's a Solar, rather than because she has Qiao of the Mo Kung 8.
Making them full on peers to exalts is too much, but something that lets society train people to actually hit back and mean something would be great.
Or how about our mundane okay anti-magic tank designs and the "minor" sorcery based magitech of our hell? Right now humanity at large has a lot of power in some ways and is frightfully weak in others, but with the right tools in the right places and a careful deconstruction of the masquerade that can change.
Molly is in a very privileged position right now, and can choose one of two things. To set off a hand grenade that will ultimately change the head under the crown at humanity's expense but subjugated them just the same, or set things in motion so that when Mab sits down with a representative of humanity next it isn't because god or fate put them there but because regular people did. Something that she had to treat with respect because they be too much power to leave any other choice.
The systems we live within a far from perfect, but we are far more able to correct and control them than the alternatives.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 21, 2024 at 4:07 PM, finished with 37 posts and 8 votes.
[X]Plan Phone Tag -[X] Rest and Recover: 12 hours --[X] Pick up Mutt from the Gardens and talk to Arlene that we kept our word about the Blampire --[X] Book connecting hotel suites with bathtubs where everyone else can get some food, shower and rest while you soak and recover Essence. Might be the last time in a while. Bring some bleach. -[X]HMP the security cameras/hotel computers for early warning -[X]Phonecall: Call people while in the bleach bathtub, with BSM, ATB, Occult, Etiquette and Empathy Excellencies running and speakerphone conference call with the rest of the party in the living room --[X] Speak to Big Corey about his vampire problem being dealt with and the much bigger problem in his future --[X] Speak to Alexander Harrowmont at the University of Las Vegas --[X] Make an afternoon appointment with Silk -[X] Cyberdevils: Hack police databases -[X] Yes --[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers --[X] Insist he gets a medical tuneup from Lash if he's coming, just in case --[X] And a disguise
[X] Plan Spiritual retreat -[X] Call people --[X] Talk to Arlene that we kept our word about the Blampire ---[X] Ask her to help arranging a meeting with Charon --[X] Speak to Big Corey about his vampire problem being dealt with and the much bigger problem in his future -[X] Molly: Rest and Recover 9 hours or less if we recover quicker --[X] Book connecting hotel suites ---[X]HMP the security cameras/hotel computers to see who, if anyone, comes looking --[X] Actually retreat into your kingdom ---[X] Do healing while under observation and what help medicae of our kingdom can provide. Even if they can't help now, the knowledge they gain will be helpful later ---[X] Get some heavy duty explosives brought, in case you really need to blow something up. Up to a davy crocket load (~ 20 t of TNT equivalent) -[X] Cyberdevils: Hack police databases and setup several kingdom exit enabling music over the city -[X] Everyone else, while Molly recovers --[X] Speak to Alexander Harrowmont at the University of Las Vegas --[X] Rest somewhere which doesn't require booking and deals in cash, or in any of your ally bases
[X] Yes -[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers --[X] Offer he gets a medical tuneup from Lash if he's coming, just in case --[X] And a disguise
Capacity for great good AND evil.
The same Hercules who killed the Hydra is also the same person who wiped out a royal family and sacked their city because the father would not give him his daughter as a concubine.
Canon Exalted heroes dont overcome their flaws.
Thats like a major ongoing theme of the series.
To be fair the Great Curse is basically designed to do just that, that is what Limit is: the Exalts keep having flavorful psychotic episodes and since they are cursed from their perspective Everything is Fine (TM) which of course makes the next one easier to rationalize. Even with this rather diabolical bit of sabotage we know that Exalts can check each other and indeed that there was a chance they would have done so at the end of the First Age if the Sidereals had followed the Vision of Gold and the risk paid off. Of course if it had not paid off... Creation would have been begging for the tyranny of Theion and company.
Looking at it from the other direction though even without the Great Curse it is quite hard for an Exalt, especially a Solariod to change their minds since they have high willpower and strong intimacies, not to mention the charms designed to prevent losing in social combat also strengthen their present beliefs whatever they may be.
On the third (mutant?) hand all that stuff about high willpower and strong intimacies also applies to particularly old wizards for good or for ill. Handing 'the power of an Incarnate compressed into the body of a mortal' too exceptional mortals will almost certainly cause chaos, but given enough time things might well find a new equilibrium
Also this isn't creation. People in our world has beliefs in self determination and respct for their own rights.
No amount of social combat is going to allow exalted to wrap the world around their fingers. Its a lot more mature world with mature systems.
Also we have become exceptionally good at inflciting violence as well. Perfects fo run out eventually and blanketing a battle field in burning white phosphorus will burn a lot of essence for almost all exalted.
