- No, you are entirely free to talk to your mortal enemy at any point you like
- Staying very quiet in the back of the gondola
- It's 11 PM or so, well after dark
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Butcher is deliberately unclear about this. His latest word on the subject I can find was on Reddit:
As I head canon it?
Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live--the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
- This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved--a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)
That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
White Court vampires are possessed by demons. Red Court vampires are turned into a different biological species.
And Black Court vampires are something else with the memories of a dead person.
@Zoolimar is correct actually.
Fae have souls by Word of Butcher. They just arent human souls. The rest is human wizards being anthropocentric, whether through being assholes or just ignorance.
Butcher mentioned it once when discussing the whole Do Not Kill With Magic restriction of the Laws.
Your vote doesnt actually ask any questions
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@uju32
Also that CPS should be involved, because Winter are inhuman monsters.
And you don't have proof for anything you are saying. It was some manner of interactive construct placed (unknowingly and without consent from what I understand) into the soul of another person. Fairly sure that's gross violation of the third Law upon Thomas, and likely upon Harry too. Because I am fairly sure consent doesn't matter at all. Rosie could have sincerely begged Molly to heal her drug addiction with magic, and it would still have been a Law violation.
I'll have to look for quotes later, but, for now... Cowl also seems to have the best of intentions.
This one is simple: obtain an open-ended enough favor from Leanansidhe, like the one we got from Mab, and then use it to make her assume the role of Dresden's godmother. LIke, right now, what is stopping us from using one of our favors with Winter or Summer to ask Mab or Titania to assume the role of godmother to little baby Amanda (other than common sense, that is)?
Coupled with how she deliberately arranged for Harry to be Starborn? That she wasn't making a baby, but engineering a magibiological weapon against Outsiders. Ie that she deliberately birthed Dresden with the intent of turning him into a weapon, possibly under Winter's employ / control.
Also that CPS should be involved, because Winter are inhuman monsters.
That they are her kids means nothing. Plenty of people are abusive. Plenty more would sacrifice their firstborn on a bloody altar and feast upon their heart. For power. For glory. For the great mission of saving humanity. All the while sincerely loving their children.
And you don't have proof for anything you are saying. It was some manner of interactive construct placed (unknowingly and without consent from what I understand) into the soul of another person. Fairly sure that's gross violation of the third Law upon Thomas, and likely upon Harry too. Because I am fairly sure consent doesn't matter at all. Rosie could have sincerely begged Molly to heal her drug addiction with magic, and it would still have been a Law violation.
It's "tell us everything you know, and you die a swift death". I thought I was pretty clear that I wanted him to tell us everything he knew? But ok.
How about this?
[X] Sure, if he's feeling talkative no reason not to take advantage of it, you'll kill him later anyway
-[X] Move away from the water, in case "Charon" is coming
-[X] The list of questions
--[X] What's been happening in the city
--[X] What has he been doing with the Pallbearers
--[X] Who and what Charon is, and what deal they have made
--[X] What knowledge he has about Black Court
-[X] Intimidation excellency, BSM
-[X] STUNT: "The one thing you might buy from me, Mr. Cobbler, in exchange for everything you know, is time enough for one last prayer, and swift and painless end" you say, your voice carrying the absolute surety of divine royalty and a touch of the cold and darkness of the tombs he used to rob. "And if you try to deceive me, I'll cut off your limbs, then bury you in the blackest ice, left to wither for millennia to come"
I am also tempted to grab him with MHM, to invoke that dread of being buried alive and unable to move. Do we still have it active?
And I am specifically not asking about Sandra, because something might be listening, and so far we didn't actually indicate to anyone that we are here about her. Hopefully, the "what's been happening in the city" gives us info on her actions.
Good night guys, see you tomorrow with interviewing a vampire.
We promised to kill this guy, rescuing the other priest was an unasked for bonus. Even if trading a person to a blamp wasn't crazy this is a keep your word moment. We can't cut a deal that interferes with our ability to do that.
Also, telling him what we're looking for is basically paying him to then go acquire leverage over us.
I'd rather not piss Charon off even harder, but I'm not willing to let him leave our presence alive to avoid it.
We can ask a question using his corpse later.
No, in the books they flat don't: souls are mortal/near mortal only. This quest added that idea as part of the fusion with exalted.
The DF RPG is pretty clear reds are a different person entirely too.
This guy should be smart enough to know that when someone big is screwing with you winning means leverage and distractions.
Remember that we're essentially in a middle of a raid here, Charon is probably mobilizing his response right now if we're still on neutral enough ground to count. He could very well just be trying to keep us talking till a minor Greek good shows up to get in our face.
That or using a doombot equivalent like @uju32 suggested.
If it's at all possible that he gets out after this telling him what we're here for in detail gives him leverage, like by racing us for Sandra and selling her for his life or similar.
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
Remember that we're essentially in a middle of a raid here, Charon is probably mobilizing his response right now if we're still on neutral enough ground to count. He could very well just be trying to keep us talking till a minor Greek good shows up to get in our face.
That or using a doombot equivalent like @uju32 suggested.
If it's at all possible that he gets out after this telling him what we're here for in detail gives him leverage, like by racing us for Sandra and selling her for his life or similar.
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
I find it extremely unlikely that there is going to be any further effort from the 'Greek god' at this point. Though this may be me reading too much into it this black vampire came here because a ghost told him and most ghosts don't have the senses necessary to tell them you really should not have come here. Now there's a not insignificant chance he has real backup with him. If it was the god that told them he definitely would not have showed up because he would have known that this is not the place to be.
There is very little chance that this person or being that's putting up the face of being a Greek god is ever going to leave that River to walk into open air which would separated from them from their domain as boatmen against a full powered exalt Burning Bright and an Exalt that hasn't even started fighting an extremely powerful demonic presence and a powerful wizard of the white Council. Especially not for a random Abomination it possibly owed a favor. The smart thing for it to do is let the Abomination die never have to do anything for that set Abomination again go on with your life or unlife or whatever existence Greek gods have at this point.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] Plan The Gleaming Sword
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
It's possible he might not do something now, though his security was in hot pursuit of the party, but if he's enforcing neutrality and offering sanctuary in exchange for various trades letting raids go unanswered directly damages his operations. It encourages more assailants to try their luck and more customers to seek more reliable seeming alternatives.
I'm not saying Charon is going to definitely be a super combat monster that'll kill us, though it is almost certainly a serious one we'd need to pay attention to, but that doesn't mean Cobbler wouldn't believe he could and would do so.
The entire basis of him being here in general and approaching us right now in particular is that he believes Charon will take action if we step out of line.
As to ghosts not having the senses; they're essentially what got us caught by St. Gile's while hunting Ortega.
Doesn't that prove my point. Saint Giles came after us. Because they got info from a ghost that had the senses to feel us in the river but not the awareness to tell that we weren't a Wandering old person for lack of a better way of putting it. They had Intel that they got that was correct this group of people or this person emerged from this River and they have Supernatural powers and they came with a bunch of Mortals and they were ready to risk their lives but God was the information not accurate correct no doubt but not accurate.
Golems for one are expensive, two they were inside of a never-never realm so he would have to open a way that is at the bottom of his River for his stone golems. Three the programming and or magic binding Golems is rarely so flexible that you can make them leave the sanctum that they were made to guard and attack it at least not quickly though there might be some funky God magic you could pull off but that's strange cuz Stone constructs are kind of meant to sit for Millennia guarding a place so being able to change that on a dime seem strange.
- Location
- washington
For the near mortal thing not actually true angels all have souls, I'd assume God has a soul, fallen may have souls maybe they don't have free will as defined by Dresden files but they probably have souls. Odin almost definitely has a soul seeing as he has soul fire abilities. So varying gods probably have souls though Odin seems a special case but I doubt he's unique in the soul department. Valkyries and einherjar obviously have souls but they're obviously just humans in a different state. We've never gotten any confirmation or non confirmation of souls in canon for certain figures like the forest people but I wouldn't be surprised if they do. I'd assume certain other species have souls even if it's not common. Part of not using sight or soul gaze on certain beings is the fact it'll fucking melt a mortals brain.
Oh also not that I don't trust you uju cause I do I just am interested in that wog on fae souls or book part? I just you know wanna see it no need to get it for me if ya don't want to just interested.
The update's going to be a wile guys, I currently have a fever that is just kind of lingering on the edge of 'too high to focus'.
That is not what the ghosts saw of us:
That's big bad news by any standard and they showed up because they're crazy. A senile vampiric demigod would have been just as lethal to them as we were.
Cobbler had to roll Willpower to approach us, he knew we were dangerous. Cobbler just cited Charon and his friends enforcing neutrality here as reason not to attack him. That's directly relying on their protection or revenge on his behalf because if they don't it'll sink Charon's business.
Bad senses didn't bring him here, and people are highly unlikely to be so intimidated by our mere presence that they let us do whatever we like at their expense.
This is stupid. It assumes the back door is the only way in or out, that those constructs are the only defenders, and that he made a particular kind of guardian that fits your expectations of a trope.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Don't want to make deals with him and also don't want Charon to enforce neutrality. If the Blampire is willing to gamble on that and he was able to hold someone in Charon's place earlier then it's probably true that they would.
Let's be smart and not attack here because we are impatient or something.
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
Let's be smart and not attack here because we are impatient or something.
[X] Nope, you are not trading anything with a vampire of the Black Court
That option is engage combat immediately by the way not do something else unless you have a write in to somehow move this confrontation else where. Also you can't enforce neutrality and obviously take a side in an open conflict where the person who started the conflict by kidnapping somebody is.
This is probably not true would be a less kind of rude term for it. It doesn't just assume that the back door is the only way in and out it assumes that The stygian Boatman whose sanctum is at the bottom of a river has to open a way from the river that he is always attached to for stone golems that cannot swim and are known to be really fucking heavy and expensive. Also the animating intelligence of Golems are embedded into literal Rock we know that there is still some kind of logic behind enchantments and materials general Magics that make things move. That's why I said he could pull some kind of funky God Magic.
Also he was waiting for us you don't have to roll willpower to be waiting for someone. He had to roll willpower to stay or not immediately try to fight us not approach us. If he was really true that his friends were going to jump us at that moment you should have said that because it's not neutrality if you obviously take a side in an open conflict that was started by the aggressor. The aggressor by the way he was an undead Abomination who kidnapped people in a mortal city with allies.
So, regarding future plans. Perhaps even near future plans.
This is I AM - the crown jewel of Deliberative research and development, and basically First Age's Culture Mind equivalent:
Now, let's see what Molly can do ina cave the Fifth Age with a box of proverbial scraps.
5 dot Emanation arcana
Willpower: ●●●●●●●●●● (5 base + 5 from freebie points)
Health Track (Bruised x 2, Hurt, Injured Wounded, Mauled, Crippled, Incapacitated — an extra Bruised level).
Soak: 3
Attributes
Abilities
Freebie point balance: start with 15 - 5 for willpower + 7 from sacrificing physical attribute points - 14 for two bonus arcana features - 3 for merits
So, not quite as good as First Age I AM (one dot less in all mental attributesm but with at least the same potential), but overall quite close. In terms of computer rolls, I AM rolls 11 dice at -2 to -4 DC, which puts them distinctly above what humans are capable of.
This is I AM - the crown jewel of Deliberative research and development, and basically First Age's Culture Mind equivalent:
The lore feats attributes to I AM 's capabilities and structure are vast indeed:
Now, let's see what Molly can do in
Part dream, part ambition, and part half-remembered memory of Ages long past, I AM is a spirit of internet of the new Age. The spirit of Internet even. Designed in order to eventually take over and, in effect, function as an assistant, interface, and guardian of the world-wide web, I AM possesses an incredibly broad range of knowledges from conception, and is capable of rapidly acquiring more. Unparalleled knowledge of computer sciences allows it to iteratively self-modify, potentially outshining even the brilliance of their exalted maker. In proper nomenclature, I AM is a seed AI that, with a proper guidance, would quickly sprout and eventually grow into a mighty digimagical tree.
Willpower: ●●●●●●●●●● (5 base + 5 from freebie points)
Health Track (Bruised x 2, Hurt, Injured Wounded, Mauled, Crippled, Incapacitated — an extra Bruised level).
Soak: 3
Attributes
| PHYSICAL (tetriary, custom: base dots from Strength and Dexterity transferred to Stamina, design dots sacrificed for 7 freebie points) | SOCIAL (secondary + Superior Poise) | MENTAL (primary +2x Superior Mind) |
| Strength ○○○○○ | Charisma ●●●○○○ | Perception ●●●●●●○ |
| Dexterity ○○○○○ | Manipulation ●●●○○○ | Intelligence ●●●●●●○ |
| Stamina ●●●○○ | Appearance ●●●●●○ | Wits ●●●●●●○ |
Abilities
| TALENTS (secondary + 8 expertise dots) | SKILLS (tetriary + 4 expertise dots) | KNOWLEDGES (primary +10 expertise dots) |
| Alertness ●●●●● | Animal Ken ○○○○○ | Academics ●●●○○ |
| Athletics ○○○○○ | Crafts ●●●●○ | Computer ●●●●● |
| Awareness ●●●●○ | Drive ○○○○○ | Finance ●●○○○ |
| Brawl ○○○○○ | Etiquette ●●●●● | Investigation ○○○○○ |
| Empathy ●●●●○ | Firearms ○○○○○ | Law ●●○○○ |
| Expression ●●●●○ | Larceny ○○○○○ | Medicine ●●●○○ |
| Intimidation ○○○○○ | Melee ○○○○○ | Occult ●●○○○ |
| Leadership ○○○○○ | Performance ○○○○○ | Politics ○○○○○ |
| Streetwise ○○○○○ | Stealth ○○○○○ | Science ●●●○○ |
| Subterfuge ○○○○○ | Survival ○○○○○ | Technology ●●●●○ |
Emanations can soak lethal damage, but not aggravated.
Select either the Umbra or the Underworld. This is the emanation's native home. It may roam
freely in its native realm, where it enjoys the natural ability to converse with the other native
denizens and to navigate without undue difficulty (in the Umbra, this amounts to having the
Charm Airt Sense, while in the Underworld it amounts to having several dots of Argos). The
phantasm may manifest in the physical world only while within one hundred yards of its
keystone, or within ten yards of its master. It must pay one Willpower to remain manifest for a
scene. It may pay one Willpower to immediately teleport to its master's or keystone's location.
If the phantasm's master the emanation's name, the Arcana hears her words wherever it may be.
If she commands the ephemera to attend her, it may teleport to her master's location and
manifest without paying any Willpower. If the keystone is destroyed, the phantasm is also
destroyed. If the emanation is slain, it may reform one hundred years later within its keystone.
Each point of Essence fed into the keystone by its master quickens this recovery by 10 years.
If the emanation's master has learned The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell,
the phantasm may treat its master's Hell as a keystone.
Ephemera are always otherworldly, disturbing beings with demonic features of some sort that
cannot be mistaken for as human.
Select either the Umbra or the Underworld. This is the emanation's native home. It may roam
freely in its native realm, where it enjoys the natural ability to converse with the other native
denizens and to navigate without undue difficulty (in the Umbra, this amounts to having the
Charm Airt Sense, while in the Underworld it amounts to having several dots of Argos). The
phantasm may manifest in the physical world only while within one hundred yards of its
keystone, or within ten yards of its master. It must pay one Willpower to remain manifest for a
scene. It may pay one Willpower to immediately teleport to its master's or keystone's location.
If the phantasm's master the emanation's name, the Arcana hears her words wherever it may be.
If she commands the ephemera to attend her, it may teleport to her master's location and
manifest without paying any Willpower. If the keystone is destroyed, the phantasm is also
destroyed. If the emanation is slain, it may reform one hundred years later within its keystone.
Each point of Essence fed into the keystone by its master quickens this recovery by 10 years.
If the emanation's master has learned The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell,
the phantasm may treat its master's Hell as a keystone.
Ephemera are always otherworldly, disturbing beings with demonic features of some sort that
cannot be mistaken for as human.
The Arcana gains three additional dots of Mental Attributes, which may
increase its traits to 6. Taking this Feature a second time provides only two bonus dots, but raises
the permitted cap to 7.
increase its traits to 6. Taking this Feature a second time provides only two bonus dots, but raises
the permitted cap to 7.
The Arcana gains three additional dots of Social Attributes, which may
increase its traits to 6. Taking this Feature a second time provides only two bonus dots, but raises
the permitted cap to 7.
increase its traits to 6. Taking this Feature a second time provides only two bonus dots, but raises
the permitted cap to 7.
The Arcana has most likely has a machine-mind, though it might
also have some other quirk like a technological spirit having been bound into it during its
creation. Whatever the case, the difficulty of all the Arcana's Computer rolls are reduced by two.
also have some other quirk like a technological spirit having been bound into it during its
creation. Whatever the case, the difficulty of all the Arcana's Computer rolls are reduced by two.
The Arcana gains seven additional dots of Abilities, which may be used to raise
them above three dots. Taking this Feature additional times provides only five bonus dots.
them above three dots. Taking this Feature additional times provides only five bonus dots.
Your head is a calculator of impressive capability. With
a few moments of thought, you can perform intricate mathe-
matical feats – a useful talent for Hermetic wizards, Syndicate
operatives, Enlightened engineers, and other mages who employ
math and geometry in their work.
System-wise, this Merit allows you to reduce the difficulties
of math- and calculation-based rolls by -2. Simple calculations
take no time at all, while sophisticated problems may demand
a turn or more. Obviously, your character needs access to the
proper data before she can work out calculations… and garbage
in, garbage out, so make sure your data is accurate!
For potential applications of math in magick, see the
instrument entries for Circles and Geometric Designs,
Formulae and Math, Money and Wealth, and Numbers
and Numerology in Mage 20, pp. 590-596, as well as the
practices of Hypereconomics (pg. 573), High Ritual Magick and
Hypertech (pp. 578-579), and Reality Hacking (pp. 581-582).
Remember that Merits cannot reduce the difficulty of
a magick-casting roll below the minimum difficulty, or by more than -3.
That said, fast and accurate calculations make useful aids when you're using
Mundane Skills and Magickal Effects, as described in the
entry of that name (Mage 20, pp. 532-534).
Depending upon the feat in question, this could
employ a roll of Intelligence + Academics to work out most
calculations, Perception + Academics to discern odds or
geometrical dimensions, and Wits + Academics to belt out
rapid guesstimates with only the roughest of data.
a few moments of thought, you can perform intricate mathe-
matical feats – a useful talent for Hermetic wizards, Syndicate
operatives, Enlightened engineers, and other mages who employ
math and geometry in their work.
System-wise, this Merit allows you to reduce the difficulties
of math- and calculation-based rolls by -2. Simple calculations
take no time at all, while sophisticated problems may demand
a turn or more. Obviously, your character needs access to the
proper data before she can work out calculations… and garbage
in, garbage out, so make sure your data is accurate!
For potential applications of math in magick, see the
instrument entries for Circles and Geometric Designs,
Formulae and Math, Money and Wealth, and Numbers
and Numerology in Mage 20, pp. 590-596, as well as the
practices of Hypereconomics (pg. 573), High Ritual Magick and
Hypertech (pp. 578-579), and Reality Hacking (pp. 581-582).
Remember that Merits cannot reduce the difficulty of
a magick-casting roll below the minimum difficulty, or by more than -3.
That said, fast and accurate calculations make useful aids when you're using
Mundane Skills and Magickal Effects, as described in the
entry of that name (Mage 20, pp. 532-534).
Depending upon the feat in question, this could
employ a roll of Intelligence + Academics to work out most
calculations, Perception + Academics to discern odds or
geometrical dimensions, and Wits + Academics to belt out
rapid guesstimates with only the roughest of data.
Gifted with the proverbial photographic memory, you
clearly recall details about something you read, view, or other-
wise experience. A serious boon for ritual magicians, field ops,
and tech-minded magi, this Merit lets your character remember
stuff even if you, the player, do not.
Under most circumstances, your character easily recalls
the memories in question. Really detailed memories, or ones
gathered under stressful conditions, might require a Perception
+ Alertness roll before the character can remember essential
elements of the moment she's trying to recall.
Memory, of course, is subjective, and so while this Merit
allows you remember things as you perceive them, those memories
will still be based upon your perspective – internal as well as
external – which is not the same as having access to some ob-
jective god-view of that experience! Especially in a game about
subjective reality, that's an important distinction – one that
also keeps this Merit from becoming a potential game-breaker.
Folks with such memories are often subject to
PTSD, as in the Flaw of that name. That's especially true when people face
Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, as described in Mage
20, p. 407. Vivid recall has its drawbacks, and in the traumatic
world of a mage, some things really are best forgotten!
clearly recall details about something you read, view, or other-
wise experience. A serious boon for ritual magicians, field ops,
and tech-minded magi, this Merit lets your character remember
stuff even if you, the player, do not.
Under most circumstances, your character easily recalls
the memories in question. Really detailed memories, or ones
gathered under stressful conditions, might require a Perception
+ Alertness roll before the character can remember essential
elements of the moment she's trying to recall.
Memory, of course, is subjective, and so while this Merit
allows you remember things as you perceive them, those memories
will still be based upon your perspective – internal as well as
external – which is not the same as having access to some ob-
jective god-view of that experience! Especially in a game about
subjective reality, that's an important distinction – one that
also keeps this Merit from becoming a potential game-breaker.
Folks with such memories are often subject to
PTSD, as in the Flaw of that name. That's especially true when people face
Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, as described in Mage
20, p. 407. Vivid recall has its drawbacks, and in the traumatic
world of a mage, some things really are best forgotten!
So, not quite as good as First Age I AM (one dot less in all mental attributesm but with at least the same potential), but overall quite close. In terms of computer rolls, I AM rolls 11 dice at -2 to -4 DC, which puts them distinctly above what humans are capable of.
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