Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I'd say shatterimg the WC as an organisation is definitly a step in the right direction, eigher by killing the Raiths or forcing Lara to push too far.
That's a wrong way to go about this. For all the vampireness of Whites their demon is more of a symbiote than outright parasite. It gives too many advantages with too little in the way of downsides for them to just drop it. Hell, a lot of downsides come down to culture of the White Court that was born somewhere in the bronze age, not the Hungers.

There are many ways to shatter an organization or a practice but if people get tangible benefits out of it? Violent attempts would be either rebuffed or worked around. They get biological immortality! No one is going to take it lying down if someone else tries to take it away.

What you want is to provide alternatives, if you are somewhat dickish and just really want the organization and people in it to suffer, you provide them in such a way it splits them in multiple parts while you are left picking up the pieces.

If Molly can provide an alternative to their feeding methods that is more convenient while they still retain their powers she would be able to make a soft takeover of the whole White Court within maybe 5 to 10 years tops. And that's including the time needed to hunt the last stragglers.
And her crafting abilities absolutely do give her options to do it.

Such approach will have much less collateral damage, allows Molly to cherry pick the people she wants to stay in power and is overall much better than grabbing an axe and going to town shouting "Kavabunga it is!".
 
This runs into a few problems:

1) This requires a lot of time to do. A lot of different problems can be solved this way, but we have to pick which ones get attention and which ones are left behind.

2) The world isn't static, if we strangle the white court then bad actors will also take advantage. This doesn't mean we should give up, just that we can't kill our way through big problems, at best it's step one in a much more involved effort to manage the issue. Something that limits how much we can bite off at a time.

3) By making this entirely adversarial and in general being an inscrutable murder hobo we'd turn this into total war, functionally performing an ethnic cleansing. We keep killing, they keep running, and other predators circle the corpse. Not like many would be willing to stop and talk to us once it got going.

You could try to claim it isn't one, just a lot of little actions that together happen to look like one, but that line has been used a thousand times and has always been bullshit. Intent nothing, the consequences are the same.

You're getting all up in arms on this but I can't help but think that in any simulation of reality more accurate than a marvel comic your proposed solutions are not only ineffective, they're actively heinous entirely by accident.


The supernatural world is composed of entities as alien to each other as they are to humanity. Their social mores exist where they've been pounded into their heads by millennia of nonsense. Don't make a promise and then break it, they don't give a damn about checking your reasoning because half the time it doesn't make sense to them anyway.

I'm game to kill him at the first opportunity, but at no point in our interaction was he vulnerable or outside of this type of agreement .

There are probably less than 30,000 white vampires as far as I can tell they are a localized phenomenon that started in the Italian peninsula that have houses of people rather than being a widespread viral issue like the red Court. If you told me even a tenth of those people were involved in those things I would call horseshit.

Well for argument let's say it is a tenth you could say 300 Vamps it's still kind of ethnic cleansing but it's not really ethnic cleansing if there's a clear and obvious through line that is very easy to get out of. It's not like being born of a Jewish family that's not something you can get out of it's not like being born in Armenia.

It's a conscious choice to be involved with human trafficking especially when it seems like no one in your ethnic group is getting any kind of smoke from that individual except for those people who have made that conscious choice to commit a heinous crime that would invite immediate consequence from the law, every government on Earth and anyone who knew you were behind it that had the power to strike at you.
 
There are probably less than 30,000 white vampires as far as I can tell they are a localized phenomenon that started in the Italian peninsula that have houses of people rather than being a widespread viral issue like the red Court. If you told me even a tenth of those people were involved in those things I would call horseshit.

Well for argument let's say it is a tenth you could say 300 Vamps it's still kind of ethnic cleansing but it's not really ethnic cleansing if there's a clear and obvious through line that is very easy to get out of. It's not like being born of a Jewish family that's not something you can get out of it's not like being born in Armenia.

It's a conscious choice to be involved with human trafficking especially when it seems like no one in your ethnic group is getting any kind of smoke from that individual except for those people who have made that conscious choice to commit a heinous crime that would invite immediate consequence from the law, every government on Earth and anyone who knew you were behind it that had the power to strike at you.
Your speculation on numbers doesn't really add anything, since you're basically just picking whatever felt right to you.

In terms of involvement part of that depends on what you consider horrible crimes and where you think our responsibility ends. Remember that even if they aren't trafficking in humans almost all whamps kill at least once and most of them do so more frequently than that. Skavis, especially old Skavis, are very frequently deliberately sadistic in a way baseline humans are only very rarely capable of.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use violence on people who are doing awful things, but if our only approach is violence then it has consequences even beyond what we do directly.

To illustrate, I see the scenario working out like this:

1) We shatter the court, causing their minions to go rogue but otherwise stay in the same business.

2) We show up in some town and kill the elders controlling some awful operation.

3) Their dependents flee because we're Darth Fucking Vader as far as they're concerned. Kids fledge together for protection, causing strings of random deaths as they go.

4) The ones that don't get eaten themselves end up working for others of their own people, because that's the best deal available and the community they know the best. Next time we show up some percentage of the mooks have an intimacy to the effect of "Molly Carpenter:Hatred/Terror(Killed my Mom)".

5) Talking them down fails for some reason, we kill another nest of monsters. Return to step 2.

Note the number who die because of what we did, but not at our hand. This is a messy problem and fixing it is going to get a lot of people killed, but we can do better than this.
 
Let me add a little context to my last post I don't think doing that would be even like partially undoing the white courts power. It would just be eliminating there overt movements of hurting people. To clarify the houses of the White Court are like going on 3000 years old at this point if they were born before Rome.

House Skavis, House Raith, house melvora all of them unbroken Family Lines since that time. They have the wealth to not do this they can just not be a part of that they're choosing to do that. The Power House Raith has is almost certainly all soft power that doesn't really rely on crime because they're succubus and Incubus why do they need human trafficking rings, they don't they pedal influence through blackmail and in general gold digger Behavior.

To be frank there's nothing that can be done about that the immense wealth of the White Court is exactly that wealth in land, resources and everything else the fact they are choosing to indulge in these things means they are placing their hunger above human lives their greed has allowed them to be put in a position that they can be connected to crimes that should and will get them thrown in prison if those connections come to light. To be frank Lara should be glad to be rid of them.

Your speculation on numbers doesn't really add anything, since you're basically just picking whatever felt right to you.

In terms of involvement part of that depends on what you consider horrible crimes and where you think our responsibility ends. Remember that even if they aren't trafficking in humans almost all whamps kill at least once and most of them do so more frequently than that. Skavis, especially old Skavis, are very frequently deliberately sadistic in a way baseline humans are only very rarely capable of.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use violence on people who are doing awful things, but if our only approach is violence then it has consequences even beyond what we do directly.

To illustrate, I see the scenario working out like this:

1) We shatter the court, causing their minions to go rogue but otherwise stay in the same business.

2) We show up in some town and kill the elders controlling some awful operation.

3) Their dependents flee because we're Darth Fucking Vader as far as they're concerned. Kids fledge together for protection, causing strings of random deaths as they go.

4) The ones that don't get eaten themselves end up working for others of their own people, because that's the best deal available and the community they know the best. Next time we show up some percentage of the mooks have an intimacy to the effect of "Molly Carpenter:Hatred/Terror(Killed my Mom)".

5) Talking them down fails for some reason, we kill another nest of monsters. Return to step 2.

Note the number who die because of what we did, but not at our hand. This is a messy problem and fixing it is going to get a lot of people killed, but we can do better than this.
I put my message there cuz I don't it doesn't seem like you saw it. I don't think this is a actual Court light issue I think this is specific malicious actors that are using the protection of the White Court to get away with it. The general presence of the White Court prevents the splintering of Young vampires into random coteries that go around killing people. This is the one upside of the Court. Families have no need to be involved with human trafficking they have the resources to feed ethically no matter which family you're talking about whether that be despair eaters fear eaters or anything else because being near funeral homes or graveyards or cemeteries or crematoriums are just things that they could do. Never mind the fact that they could literally set up theaters that are near the houses that they can feed on people going to horror movies hell one of them owned a horror movie studio. The only reason to be involved with human trafficking is to be involved with human trafficking you want to make a quick Buck or you want to indulge sadism they don't need to be involved with this shit to survive.
 
There are probably less than 30,000 white vampires as far as I can tell they are a localized phenomenon that started in the Italian peninsula that have houses of people rather than being a widespread viral issue like the red Court. If you told me even a tenth of those people were involved in those things I would call horseshit.

Well for argument let's say it is a tenth you could say 300 Vamps it's still kind of ethnic cleansing but it's not really ethnic cleansing if there's a clear and obvious through line that is very easy to get out of. It's not like being born of a Jewish family that's not something you can get out of it's not like being born in Armenia.

It's a conscious choice to be involved with human trafficking especially when it seems like no one in your ethnic group is getting any kind of smoke from that individual except for those people who have made that conscious choice to commit a heinous crime that would invite immediate consequence from the law, every government on Earth and anyone who knew you were behind it that had the power to strike at you.

The White Court started in at least three places as far as their history goes:
  • The Italian peninsula (Raiths)
  • The Eurasian Steppes (Skavis)
  • The Middle East (Malvora)
As for their spread, they have gone global with colonization, there are White Court vampires on every continent bar Antarctica (There was that one ambitious Skavis who briefly lived in one of the research stations, but he got brained by a particularly savvy geologist :V )
 
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I put my message there cuz I don't it doesn't seem like you saw it
I didn't, but almost none of the assumptions you're presenting about anything are actually meaningfully accurate so it doesn't make much of difference to my point.

Supernatural predators maintain territory; if they're not holding it themselves they're subject to whoever is, most of whom will eat or drive them out. Elders are an important part of maintaining that status, which brings any appreciable concentration of them back to the court.

The whamps as an institution absolutely are hip deep in all that stuff, it's a key influence thing for them. Lara didn't get attack helicopters from the US military with her literal vast tracts of land and ample hills.

We should do something to shut it down, but imagining we can simply kill all the bad vamps so the good vamps quietly yearning to live like we want them to can follow their natural inclination is lying to yourself.

The people committing these crimes deserve to be punished, but if you destroy the structure and nuke a large portion of their most influential elders at the same time it's going to have nasty repercussions.

I believe this problem can be solved, but continuous unadulterated violence is as appropriate a tool here as a hatchet is for brain surgery.

A certain amount of violence is necessary here to make progress, but to do it right we need to move in stages and work to mitigate the consequences if we ever have the time between dealing with all the other dumpster fires we need to put out.

Frankly I'm more concerned about the ramps than the whamps, the Denarians than either of them, and nemesis/the outside over them. We also need space on the list for the fey, Yama kings, and who knows what else.

Because we can't focus exclusively on this problem some amount of compromise was necessary.
 
The White Court started in at least three places as far as their history goes:
  • The Italian peninsula (Raiths)
  • The Eurasian Steppes (Skavis)
  • The Middle East (Malvora)
As for their spread, they have gone global with colonization, there are White Court vampires on every continent bar Antarctica (There was that one ambitious Skavis who briefly lived in one of the research stations, but he got brained by a particularly savvy geologist :V )

GOTTDAMN okay yeah that would be a lifetime of effort to actually bring down their efforts at all to be frank there's a lot of them oh God all over the world. I was not expecting there to be that many of them but really the Middle East I should reread the books I completely mistook that as them being like family units you know like Clans in Naruto except really large because they're old
 
I didn't, but almost none of the assumptions you're presenting about anything are actually meaningfully accurate so it doesn't make much of difference to my point.

Supernatural predators maintain territory; if they're not holding it themselves they're subject to whoever is, most of whom will eat or drive them out. Elders are an important part of maintaining that status, which brings any appreciable concentration of them back to the court.

The whamps as an institution absolutely are hip deep in all that stuff, it's a key influence thing for them. Lara didn't get attack helicopters from the US military with her literal vast tracts of land and ample hills.

We should do something to shut it down, but imagining we can simply kill all the bad vamps so the good vamps quietly yearning to live like we want them to can follow their natural inclination is lying to yourself.

The people committing these crimes deserve to be punished, but if you destroy the structure and nuke a large portion of their most influential elders at the same time it's going to have nasty repercussions.

I believe this problem can be solved, but continuous unadulterated violence is as appropriate a tool here as a hatchet is for brain surgery.

A certain amount of violence is necessary here to make progress, but to do it right we need to move in stages and work to mitigate the consequences if we ever have the time between dealing with all the other dumpster fires we need to put out.

Frankly I'm more concerned about the ramps than the whamps, the Denarians than either of them, and nemesis/the outside over them. We also need space on the list for the fey, Yama kings, and who knows what else.

Because we can't focus exclusively on this problem some amount of compromise was necessary.

Okay I think both of us have different assumptions about what I mean about the structure and ability of the White Court to be as an existence because I don't think the white Court actually needs to be involved with those things to exist being able to Blackmail and extort and generally be awful within a legal range is completely within the ability of the White Court.

I don't think it's the elders that are running that kind of shit what do they need that for they have to drink from 20 people just to get full anyway they'll just go to a movie or go to the cinema or the Coliseum or a wake or the ships or a brothel wherever they've been going to get large groups of feed since Rome they don't need human trafficking rings.

No never mind like apparently there possibly hundreds of thousands of them all over the world so also I was not talking about white vampires in general because we only know about the white courts specific human trafficking and influence pedaling schemes not every white vampire in existence schemes.

The Scorpion excuse doesn't work when you're close enough for government work as to a human right to the point where you have a capacity both for good and evil and are making a choice to do something. It is in my nature is not an excuse for an action and that's why I believe they are way more white vampires that even if they did feed the beast once don't feed on people to the point of death that often.

I'm certain the White Court is almost completely composed of Thomas's and Lara or even Isabella and Fitz people capable of restraint, compassion and dignity rather than King Raith or that Malvora or was he Scavis that had that trophy wife that Lydia took.
 
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GOTTDAMN okay yeah that would be a lifetime of effort to actually bring down their efforts at all to be frank there's a lot of them oh God all over the world. I was not expecting there to be that many of them but really the Middle East I should reread the books I completely mistook that as them being like family units you know like Clans in Naruto except really large because they're old

I mean they are clans, but they are very very old. The Raiths recorded history goes as long as the Etruscans 3000 years ago, that is 100 generations. You can get very large families like that
 
Vote closer, let's see how this goes
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 30, 2023 at 10:38 AM, finished with 53 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Lydia formally seeks entrance into the House of Ishtar for herself and her companions (Manipulation + Etiquette)
    -[X] Use manipulation excellency
    [X] Lydia formally seeks entrance into the House of Ishtar for herself and her companions (Manipulation + Etiquette)
    [X] Ask to speak to Arlene about a business proposition (Charisma + Leadership)
    -[X] Leadership excellency
 
You're the one suggesting she'll take issue with us building a solution to the skavis dietary problem. Either she does or she doesn't, and this one one of those places I'm willing to tell her to take a hike over; it's too important to too many people.
Thats not what I said
I believe there are complications there that we would be better off not having to address yet.
Not the same thing.

It's exactly how he works, he just doesn't look at it that way.
It really isnt.

Marcone's mortal; Dresden cant exactly walk into his office and blast him to death with magic, and Harry frankly did not have the legal or bureaucratic skill to put a dent in Marcone's empire. Lara he could kill, but the White Court as an entity was far beyond his capabilities to destroy.

Especially in the early days, Harry had issues with underestimating limits and consequences until they were rubbed in his face.
He runs into it in The Law, when there's a mortal criminal that simply disbelieves his magic and dares him to do his worst
And he's stumped.

1) the Archive still charged for things that added additional risk to her day, don't see why this would be different.
2) All the more reason to do something that uses the opportunity. Social excellency isn't bulletproof either, especially if there's magic involved.
1)Because the Archive is under constraints almost as restrictive as the Fae.
Noone else appears to labor under the same constraints.

I will remind you that Harry literally walked into then-Bianca's Red Court seethe to question her about the initial murders in Storm Front, and it was considered unremarkable, with most people willing to talk freely about other people's business.
People often talk.


2)We are still gathering information to figure out where to point the gun
And Im willing to bet that you underestimate what social Excellencies + perception boosters do for gathering information.
Even a refusal to talk speaks volumes.

His encounter happened while Kemmler was still doing that stuff, and one of the consequences of letting a wizard tier necromancer go is that they're going to get go to some shit. The fact that Khemmler could legitimately make a divine mantle of death should have been a red flag.
1) Point of correction: Kemmler couldnt make a divine mantle of death.
An ascension ritual empowers a single person, a mantle potentially empowers any number of people who can take on that mantle.


2)We know for a fact that both Grevane and Corpsetaker were running around in the 19th century and didnt manage anything of note. So wizard-tier necromancer really aint all that; Kemmler was a transcendental genius of the breed.
This is not a defense. But it is an explanation, especially if you are a jaded old god.


3)He ran into Kemmler in the first decade of the 20th century
By this time, the machinations of the world wars were explicitly already well in motion for over a hundred years. The vampires, demons, gods and necromancers, as well as the mortalside machinations, had all happened.

Even if Arawn had killed him AND managed to make it stick, we were well past the point where pebbles get to vote.
The party was getting started with or without him.

This is not to say that Arawn is blameless here
But ascribing blame for the events of WW1 and 2 to his personal failure to kill Kemmler just strikes me as a convenient piece of scapegoating. Might as well blame Luccio for not killing him in that short story, or the White Council for fucking it up repeatedly.


There are a lot of things that would take an hour IC to do, and so far we've sold more stuff than we've used on our circle or character. They're also doing a lot of work for us essentially free or at their expense.
*checks rules*
Not particularly, no, not by the rules as given, at least not using Holdencraft rules.

There's a reason he carries a gun in the first place though. It does at least something to most creatures and doesn't tax his magical stamina.
The more I've actually looked at it, the less that appears to be true.

Harry's current weapon is a Smith and Wessons Model 29. .44 magnum, six shots. Its the Dirty Harry gun from the 1970s and 1980s Clint Eastwood movies, and he's clearly carrying it because he saw the movies growing up. He doesnt even appear to carry any reloads, which doesnt fit any supernatural situation where he'd need it.


The sidepiece appears to be his other less-lethal option and his mortal deterrent.
Its also what he uses to shoot mortal goons without breaching the Laws, but he generally appears to avoid that sort of situation. He's not a principally paramilitary operative like a lot of other Wardens.

Furthermore, both Morgan and Luccio apparently use what appear to be semiautos without issue.
They are both much older combat wizards; pre-Dead Beat Luccio was allegedly a potential Senior Council candidate before she got dumped in a younger body.

Carlos had his Glock working just fine in the maelstrom of magic that was the Darkhallow; that was how he killed Grevane and stopped Morgan from killing Dresden.
So I dont really think that the techbane argument applies to his weapon choices.



Inherently you are correct it was an expressed opinion by me. As well you are correct with the crafting it doesn't feel like it because we didn't use it for ourselves or our immediate circle but yeah we've been we've been hitting it pretty consistently. No let's go over that list two of those are directly helping Court Fae which range from untrustworthy beings that you wouldn't want to leave alone with anyone you care about to outright evil like Mab and Leahansinide lesser evils Than The Outsiders true but evil nonetheless.
BronzeTongue has addressed most of this so I dont have to.

I'd say shatterimg the WC as an organisation is definitly a step in the right direction, eigher by killing the Raiths or forcing Lara to push too far.
This is so astonishingly wrongheaded Im surprised you keep suggesting it.

Anyone who takes a look at Mexico in the aftermath of the shattering of the Guadalajara Cartel at the end of the 1980s can tell you precisely the sort of situation that ensues when you attempt to break up a criminal enterprise of that size.
Nevermind a situation where there are multiple nationstate level forces willing to stir the pot, if only to spite us.


Furthermore, its canon that in the immediate aftermath of Dresden et al arranging for the overthrow of Lord Raith and his replacement by Lara Raith at the end of Blood Rites, Nemesis and Nemesis-associated entities have repeatedly tried to destroy the White Court in part or in total.

In White Night, Outsider-possessed Vito Malvora attempts to decaptitate the White Court, and does kill a good chunk of its elders. In Turn Coat, Peabody and his backers attempt to frame the White Court for the murder of a Senior Council member to throw them into the war with the White Council. In Battle Grounds, Nemesis-Infested Justine blackmails Thomas Raith, the White Queen's brother, into almost assassinating the head of state of the svartalfar in the middle of a truce to kick off a war

And Im not even counting the repeated fomor attempts to push into White Court areas after Changes, since they apparently did it to everyone.

Basically?
When your proposals involve doing the work of not just one, but several Bads of the series, including what appears to be THE Big Bad? Its a Bad Plan.


GOTTDAMN okay yeah that would be a lifetime of effort to actually bring down their efforts at all to be frank there's a lot of them oh God all over the world. I was not expecting there to be that many of them but really the Middle East I should reread the books I completely mistook that as them being like family units you know like Clans in Naruto except really large because they're old
.....
Which part of the White Court are a supernatural nationstate with global influence did you miss?
The Red Court essentially hold South America in an iron grip, and the White Court were considered at least a nominal peer.
I dont see how you would have thought that meant they were a clan just fucking around in the US.
 
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Vote closer, let's see how this goes
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 30, 2023 at 10:38 AM, finished with 53 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Lydia formally seeks entrance into the House of Ishtar for herself and her companions (Manipulation + Etiquette)
    -[X] Use manipulation excellency
    [X] Lydia formally seeks entrance into the House of Ishtar for herself and her companions (Manipulation + Etiquette)
    [X] Ask to speak to Arlene about a business proposition (Charisma + Leadership)
    -[X] Leadership excellency
Coming back to this:
Does anyone remember if Molly had the cyberdevils hack into the police records?
I wasnt around for a lot of the week, and didnt follow many of the discussions

Because if she didnt, we need to consider HMPing a police car or police computer.
Just to give us access.
 
He runs into it in The Law, when there's a mortal criminal that simply disbelieves his magic and dares him to do his worst
And he's stumped.
There's nothing on god's green earth stopping him from severly harming that kind of idiot.
There's no Law against that.

He can and does threaten and harm mundane people more than once.
 
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Basically?
When your proposals involve doing the work of not just one, but several Bads of the series, including what appears to be THE Big Bad? Its a Bad Plan.
Yeah, that has never been a valid argument for anything.

I won't change goals, personal or political, because a hostile actor shares one or more of them.
 
There's nothing on god's green earth stopping him from severly harming that kind of idiot.
There's no Law against that.
He can and does ghreaten and harm mundane people more than once.
Using magic to do it breaks the Laws
And without magic he's basically another solo legbreaker.

You mean in Las Vegas? If so then no.
Well damn. We probably should.

Yeah, that has never been a valid argument for anything.
I won't change goals, personal or political, because a hostile actor shares one or more of them.
Thats just not true.
When your proposals happen to coincide with the goals of not one but several setting antagonists, there is something very wrong with your premises.
 
Which part of the White Court are a supernatural nationstate with global influence did you miss?
The Red Court essentially hold South America in an iron grip, and the White Court were considered at least a nominal peer.
I dont see how you would have thought that meant they were a clan just fucking around in the US.
Global influence just means you have the right yolks on the right necks the right words the right ears and the right resources to get what you want which a 3000 year old vampire conspiracy that started before Rome did can definitely have all of those things never mind these Supernatural mind control and the ability coerce knowledge directly from the minds of Mortals.
Thats just not true.
When your proposals happen to coincide with the goals of not one but several setting antagonists, there is something very wrong with your premises.
That's inherently not true wanting the fall of the White Court or the red court or the Jade Court are all things multiple antagonistic factions would want. That doesn't make wanting those things bad nor does making a point of working towards those ends bad. The fact The Outsiders want the end of all things is bad true but to be frank you cannot live your life letting lesser evils go by just because the outsiders also want them gone.
 
Using magic to do it breaks the Laws
And without magic he's basically another solo legbreaker.

Untrue. The first law forbids killing humans, it doesn't forbid harming them to any degree short of death.

A wizard could cut off a victim's tongue, limbs, destroy all their sensory organs including their sense of touch and mess with their internal organs so they'd be in incredible pain for the rest of their life and that'd be just fine according to the first law as long as they made sure the screaming head and torso lived to suffer the consequences.

A wizard can inflict horrific harm on a person that's significantly worse than death in a setting where the afterlife exists and the Laws of Magic would be silent.
 
Untrue. The first law forbids killing humans, it doesn't forbid harming them to any degree short of death.

A wizard could cut off a victim's tongue, limbs, destroy all their sensory organs including their sense of touch and mess with their internal organs so they'd be in incredible pain for the rest of their life and that'd be just fine according to the first law as long as they made sure the screaming head and torso lived to suffer the consequences.

A wizard can inflict horrific harm on a person that's significantly worse than death in a setting where the afterlife exists and the Laws of Magic would be silent.
I don't think the metaphysical effect behind the laws would be silent but the white Council would be silent which is exactly pretty much all you need to worry about when someone pretty much double dog dares you to fuckin hit them in the face of the magic spell
 
On the subject of goals coinciding with outsiders.

Know why the Outsider wants X to happen. Do you think you can do something about it if the outsiders goal is an unacceptable result? Do you think you aren't being baited(Edit: In the sense that the outsider is trying to make you think it wants X to happen)? Then you can take measures accordingly and pursue that goal. Otherwise proceed with extreme caution if at all.
 
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Arc 11 Post 44: Of Matters Sacred and Profane
Of Matters Sacred and Profane

12th of January 2007 A.D.

Lydia needs no more than a nod so speak, for she had obviously been preparing for this. "We come now to the City in the Valley of Death seeking the servants of Inanna Queen of Heaven, Innana who passed though the marshes undaunted and clamed the high temple that even An could not gainsay her, Innana who took from Enki the mes of Truth and of Justice, to whom the darkness of night is as high noon and the darkness of Kur is as the night lit with stars. We seek to do good and no evil under this roof and in this vale." Though her words are in English the cadence is not, mingling as it does with the thrum of music spilling from the club, with the sound of the strip at your back into something sonorous-strange. "I am Lydia daughter of Arwan, born in Ma'at. With me is Ashipu-Dresden, war-wise and cunning, with me is Tiffany-right-named, she who was born of epiphany from darkness, with me is Margret daughter of Michael Queen of the Fivefold sanctuary." She affixes the guards in her amethyst gaze. "By these names you will announce us."

They do not speak, but bow low and turn at once to seek the priestess. If they do not run it is because running would be unseemly beneath such scrutiny.

Lash seems fondly amused, Harry perturbed, something tells you more so than if he had been greeted with outright hostility. Either way the guards do not return, instead a pair of servers, each attractive enough to be on a catwalk in Paris and dressed to match usher you into a private alcove with soft words of greeting among ambient house music on a spine of awzan, the takht coupling with the electron.

There is no mistaking the woman who rises from the low wrap-around couch to greet you. It is not the gold around her throat, for all that it has a genuine glint not costume jewellery, determination is etched in every line of her face, a sharpness in her eyes upon which many had been skewered. The High Priestess her come to greet guests no doubt unexpected.


Despite that fact her first words are neither sharp nor seeking. "Be welcome to the Hanging Gardens travelers, may you find the answers you seek, in living voice or in silence, in stillness or in motion, with dry lips or at the bottom of a fine bottle." In other words 'I'm not opposed to telling you what you want to know, but if I don't like what I hear good luck finding them starring at the wall.' At least it has the charm of honesty, in addition to the charm of well... charm. Arlene is no Lara Raith but here in the heart of her domain, standing on rock solid foundation she comes closer than one would expect of any mortal woman, even one with a goddess' ear

"Gladly do we accept the offer of wine that we might honour the blood of the grape with our councils," Lydia starts, but perhaps predictably, Harry interjects.

"Hey now you're..." He manages to stop himself before bringing up Lydia's age and/or the law of the land to a pagan priestess in a shady casino in Vegas.

So the fancy wine is brought out, what sort you don't know your parents being far from wine snobs and your experience at parties being more in the kind of events where the fruit punch of spiked with cheap vodka or whiskey for the kick. Lydia and the priestess dance around each other for a bit, each trying to inveigle the other into doing a favour.

"As Innana is the Judge so I ask of you to cast judgement upon the wicked and unveil their works..."

"You come here in the company of one who bears the Grey Cloak and ask for secrets. To inform one is to inform all and that is not wisdom but acting in haste. If you would prove yourselves to me than I might in turn confide in you what I know of foes that will linger long after your fire has passed from this city?"

"If we are to hunt than we must know the paths and those who dwell on them least our arm upon the yew-wood sway..."

"The claws of the galu fall upon all in the end, but upon none so hungrily as the ones who dwell in corpse flesh in mockery of Nergal."

"What!" Lydia almost spills her drink, the smooth back and forth snapping in an instant. "The Black Court? Here!"

"I have reason to believe that one such troubles the nights of Vegas, that it has been responsible for both the deaths of Kenneth Mayeda and Ambrosio Bianchi of the... White Court. Understand I do not have any love of those who would pervert the arts of Ishtar into a blade that cuts the soul, but compared the Demons of Kur they are as flees to wolves. I ask of you daughter of Arwan I ask of all of you to find this beast and slay it. Then I will offer such aid as I can in your own hunt, whatever that may be..."

"Worse, I say this as my father's daughter," Lydia cuts in. "Worse."

"Oh course it is," Arlene sighs "Warm water and floods."

Unbidden Lash speaks up. "The flood you have spoken of, where are the warm waters?" It takes you a moment to guess the meaning from the unfamiliar idiom: 'what about present turmoil is good?'

"Ambrosio Bianchi was high placed in the blood trade, the sex trade." Hate burns in her eyes at the mention of what for all to see, not that you can blame her. "He will not be missed."

"What makes you think they were killed by a vampire?" Harry interjects, in full detective mode now.

"Kenneth suspected such a beast was hunting him, he had papers held in a deposit box with orders that they should be delivered to me should be found dead or not found at all. as for Ambrosio it is my belief he was killed in mockery, you know the story yes, of the Black Court and the White?" As the four of you nod she continues. "It was a death that said 'you too are vampire'."

Lydia lost 2 Essence -> Now at 6/7 (Manipulation Excellency)

What do you do?

[] Explain who you are hunting, try to get some information out of Arlene now

[] Investigate the killings first, that should give you plenty of good will to fall back on

[] Write in


OOC: And we are off, first player trying to leverage your presence, question is now is how you guys react.
 
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[X] Investigate the killings first, that should give you plenty of good will to fall back on
-[
X]So long as you say that you called us in for that purpose. We don't want our actual prey to spook -too much.
 
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