Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

When we are at the point that individual Solars can afford to build flying cities with the population of RL Chicago as personal vanity projects, and other Solars would engage in large scale geomancy and write off tens of millions of civilians as collateral to make a wargame "realistic"?

Economics is clearly not an impediment to megaprojects.
No, that's nonsense logic. One doesn't follow from the other at all.
They didnt require Molly to keep them alive then.
What is their mortality again?
1) We can both ward a house AND provide an uplifted animal, but until we move Rosie into a permanent home, the first is not possible. And I cant speak for societies outside the United States, but inside the US specifically which is where Rosie lives, the assertion that dogs are barred from large parts of society is simply not true.
You don't take a dog to a dentist, or to school, or, as I understand it, to a cinema.
2) Spirits in the Dresden Files have restrictions that material entities do not.
A spirit cannot cross a threshold uninvited, for example. They can be banished by the knowledgeable.
At least some of them are vulnerable to damage by mundane sunlight.

There's a reason why summoned demons take a material form.
And most of those don't apply to emanation arcana we make.
Make an almost-Usum (perhaps our hell's equivalent of a cat?) which is also an arcana carrying its blessings to her.
See teddy bear of doom above.
 
She's 18. 19 now, I think
I cant imagine why the doctor would perform an elective CS on a teenager. Especially since it makes any future pregnancies higher risk.
My mother was 21 when I was born via c-section. She was very petite and there was some concern that a natural birth could be dangerous for her. Me as well, IIRC; big head plus narrow pelvis...
 
Possession? Yes.
But its not a protection against getting Authority'd; the only Shih defence there is to that is just sheer Willpower. Or maybe getting talismans from actual magic workers.
Which is how Dresden and most DF wizards get by. Their mental defenses aren't exactly amazing.
Their being unorganized is explicitly part of their lore.
The lore also says that training time for a Shih apprentice is 15-20 years, often from childhood.

The first Shih, Yi?
Was explicitly a wizard according to the Demon Hunter X source book page 22.
He apparently didnt know it, but he was
That's one leg of the problem, but I see no reasonable way they'd have any diplomatic weight at all if they're fodder.
Dresden is repeatedly characterized at almost the same rate as knowing less about the setting than he assumes
Those are basic things that he can easily be corrected on and are treated as pretty stable across the books. You could use this argument to shoot down almost everything we know from the series.


I have the book beside me, and the Bridges appear to be clear about when something has enhanced effects against vampires, and even distinguishes between Kuejin and Kindred. For example
My point was that vampire in WoD terms means something very different from what the DF mean by it, but things like Lydia's spirit killer will work on whampires. Things like shen/demons should be treated as more general spirits.


The Celestial Army got nuked 200 years after they and their allies won.
Who nuked them is unknown and unstated.
Could have been Yama Kings, could have been shen.
You don't nuke people who aren't a threat, you save it for people who're actually a threat. It's not like the Yama Kings have infinite resource or leverage to apply what they do possess in the mortal world. While it could have been someone else there's no reason believe it and the same reasoning applies.

What I'm hearing from you is that the Shih flailed around accomplishing nothing, but somehow enough damage was done to earn them additional resources and attention then later a WMD just cause. Despite the fact that everyone interested and capable of pulling it off having better things to do with their time and energy.

Seems vastly more plausible that they were effective enough to earn higher priority treatment and an expensive strategic bombing attempting to keep them down.
 
Worth considering that prodigies are fairly powerful themselves even if they aren't absolute like splendors.

I think it'd be meaningful for both Rosie and Amanda if we made something like a 2 dot sleep item that enhanced shared dream magic. Something to enhance control or give a basic level to someone who lacks it.

Rosie can already do dream stuff on her own, but being able to do more with it for someone in her immediate presence would be nice and giving her daughter some ability to do so would be a fun thing for them to share. Might even be a training aid that'd improve her magical development.

For a new parent seeing what your baby would do with the ability to shape their dreams, and play games where you shape a shared reality would be cool even if it did nothing else.

[X] Plan Dreaming Bridge
-[X] 3 dot prodigy in the form of two blankets.
-[X] -1 flaw: the dream bridge only extends its effects to the people sleeping under them in relatively close proximity, at least one of which must be capable of Oneiromancy.
-[X] [Description]: Two quilted blankets that have just enough heft to them to be cozy without being annoying to spread out, they always seem to fall in just the right way to be cozy. The eclectic patches don't hold any particular meaning, but nonetheless feel like they're some sort of pattern.
-[X] [Effect]: When one person sleeps under each end of the dreaming bridge there dreams are drawn close, and draw strength from that proximity. Alone this results in vague recollections of places where their minds touched, but in skilled hands it becomes something more. An oneiromancer may guide the other party to meet on the bridge and share a dream drawing on both minds, growing more responsive for it.
--[X] Anyone with the ability to perform dream magic enjoys reduced difficulty and broader reach while sharing a dream this way. Those without that ability it as a lucid dream, and with experience may learn to influence to some degree.

@DragonParadox is this a valid build? I want to get it on the board if it is, but if it's no good I'll drop it.

Oh, Im expecting that this is where and how Bonea happens in this timeline.
Gonna be hilarious for both Harry and Lash to find out that its possible. :V
As funny as this would be, it seems unlikely that a lore of flesh 5 demon couldn't work out birth control.
 
@Yog @BronzeTongue aren't these plans of yours an absolute and unnecessary exaggeration? We spent pages angry about the resources and AP that we would have to spend to fulfill our promises with the Archive and now you want to spend much, much more on a gift for an ordinary baby who has no need for it at all? When are we so swamped with things to do?
 
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Dec 22, 2023 at 7:02 PM, finished with 57 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Someone new
    -[X] Watchful Attendant of New Dreams
    [X] Something mundane
    -[X]Newborn care package from Sanctuary
    -[X]Healing potions for Rosie
    [x]The flute from Mab and a mundane crib.
    [X] Something mundane
    -[X] A baby monitor possessed by a Cyber-Devil
    [x]The flute from Mab and a Sanctuary crib.
    [X] Plan Dreaming Bridge
    -[X] 3 dot prodigy in the form of two blankets.
    -[X] -1 flaw: the dream bridge only extends its effects to the people sleeping under them in relatively close proximity, at least one of which must be capable of Oneiromancy.
    -[X] [Description]: Two quilted blankets that have just enough heft to them to be cozy without being annoying to spread out, they always seem to fall in just the right way to be cozy. The eclectic patches don't hold any particular meaning, but nonetheless feel like they're some sort of pattern.
    -[X] [Effect]: When one person sleeps under each end of the dreaming bridge there dreams are drawn close, and draw strength from that proximity. Alone this results in vague recollections of places where their minds touched, but in skilled hands it becomes something more. An oneiromancer may guide the other party to meet on the bridge and share a dream drawing on both minds, growing more responsive for it.
    --[X] Anyone with the ability to perform dream magic enjoys reduced difficulty and broader reach while sharing a dream this way. Those without that ability it as a lucid dream, and with experience may learn to influence to some degree.
 
@Yog @BronzeTongue aren't these plans of yours an absolute and unnecessary exaggeration? We spent pages angry about the resources and AP that we would have to spend to fulfill our promises with the Archive and now you want to spend much, much more on a gift for an ordinary baby who has no need for it at all? When are we so swamped with things to do?
At the adjusted cost per the flaw mechanic prodigies use making the item I wrote in would take two hours and only costs essence. That and the mundane crafting details of two quilts.

The actual time value of AP is variable, but I think that an afternoon of work is covered under what we spent on this since the event itself was basically one day.

Fair enough if you don't like it as an item, but this shouldn't be an issue resource wise.
 
No, that's nonsense logic. One doesn't follow from the other at all.
Respectfully? It does follow. The resources available to a First Age Solar are vast beyond imagining.
The First Age city of Opal Spire(Dreams of the First Age: Lands of Creation p147-148), which was explicitly packed with reality engines for magitech terraforming, was funded by one Solar, even though he had the political support of others.

What is their mortality again?
Not sure what you mean by this.

Their life expectancy? No idea. Its described as a hard life in the core, and that active Shih age quickly, but there are no figures given. Given that the canon Shih essentially ran a master-apprentice system for training and that apprentices were trained for 15-20 years, it cant have been all that bad if they kept passing it down.

You don't take a dog to a dentist, or to school, or, as I understand it, to a cinema.
Yes you can, actually.

Not into the OR, but most dentists have no problem with well-behaved pets and animals in waiting rooms; same with a lot of modern cinemas. And if they are covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act, or the whole emotional support animal thing. Hell, Dresden has used this ruse with Mouse at least once in the books IIRC, and keeps one of those vests in his car.

Not to mention that there's a fomor analogue of Anonymity as well.


And most of those don't apply to emanation arcana we make.
Emanation arcana are spirits, all the way to their ability to recover from being killed.
The same way that Bane is a spirit.
Expect them to apply.



My mother was 21 when I was born via c-section. She was very petite and there was some concern that a natural birth could be dangerous for her. Me as well, IIRC; big head plus narrow pelvis...
Yeah, those happen.
Usually you have that diagnosed a couple of prenatal visits before the due date.
And usually they prefer not to put the mother under general anesthesia; spinal block is usually sufficient.

Of course, not a sim, so the QM probably forgot that if Rosie was scheduled for an elective CS, she would have probably have talked about it with her friend.


Which is how Dresden and most DF wizards get by. Their mental defenses aren't exactly amazing.
True.

That's one leg of the problem, but I see no reasonable way they'd have any diplomatic weight at all if they're fodder.
Because they are mortal, and thus get particular consideration?
Its a commonality of both the Dresden Files and KOTE that the Middle Kingdom is supposed to be for mortals, and that there's a bunch of people around who have an interest in keeping it that way.

Those are basic things that he can easily be corrected on and are treated as pretty stable across the books. You could use this argument to shoot down almost everything we know from the series.
I dont agree.


My point was that vampire in WoD terms means something very different from what the DF mean by it, but things like Lydia's spirit killer will work on whampires. Things like shen/demons should be treated as more general spirits.
Shen is a pretty expansive term iirc, used for essentially all supernatural beings, including wizards.
It includes everything from werewolves and similar therianthropes to fae, elementals, god-like spirits and everything in-between.
Not all of them will count as spirits.



You don't nuke people who aren't a threat, you save it for people who're actually a threat. It's not like the Yama Kings have infinite resource or leverage to apply what they do possess in the mortal world. While it could have been someone else there's no reason believe it and the same reasoning applies.

What I'm hearing from you is that the Shih flailed around accomplishing nothing, but somehow enough damage was done to earn them additional resources and attention then later a WMD just cause. Despite the fact that everyone interested and capable of pulling it off having better things to do with their time and energy.

Seems vastly more plausible that they were effective enough to earn higher priority treatment and an expensive strategic bombing attempting to keep them down.
Point of correction:
You dont have to nuke people who arent a threat. You can still choose to do it, whether for revenge, as punishment, a demonstration to someone else, or as part of an empowerment ritual, or even just for the hell of it.

Like I said, we dont know who nuked the Celestial Army even in the modern day.
The usual suspects would usually brag about that sort of thing, but apparently they didnt say a word. For all we know, same dude who smote the Wan Kuei did it.

===
Summary of shih history, because Im not typing out the whole chapter:

Excellent Archer Yi founded the Shih back when the Wan Kuei ran rampant and were secret masters of the kingdom.
He and his allies, including the Shih + some shen + the army of the Chou barbarians fought against the Wan Kuei + the army of the Shang dynasty + some other shen + Yama King aid.

Yi and the Celestial Dragon Kung Kung make a decisive intervention near the war's climax with literally divine weapons(a bow made of the Trees of Immortality and arrows of white jade) to shoot down 9 demon suns raised by the Yama Kings, cursing both the Yama Kings and Kuejin in the process.

They win and sweep much of the country.
Yi lays a final death curse on the Wan Kuei, inflicting the sunlight bane on them, then dies.

The victorious Shih form the Celestial Army and are ascendant for roughly two hundred years; the population of vampires had been winnowed hard. But they begin to go after all shen, not just what shen are breaking the natural rules/the natural order of things. The Celestial Army gets nuked, and the wandering shih go back to being wanderers.

Thats the canon story in Demon Hunter X chapter 1.


As funny as this would be, it seems unlikely that a lore of flesh 5 demon couldn't work out birth control.
Literal first time having sex in the real?
I would not be at all surprised if she didnt think it necessary to bother, and then ended up with an unplanned pregnancy.
Or even that she botched. Non-standard body after all.

After all, thats how Maggie was conceived: unplanned intercourse with Susan without prophylactic contraception.
And then Susan either didnt use emergency contraception, or did and it failed.
Pretty sure that was a group, an entire faction of Solars, not individual madmen.
Sure. But thats the point. Small numbers of Solars were capable of pushing mega projects just fine.

The Cauldronists, for example, were invested in expanding Creation's borders and kept doing so. I AM, the computer system/AI that all of First Age Creation ran on, was invented by one Solar student of Brilliant Shattered Ice in their lab. There were only 5 members of the Black Nadir Concordiat, 2 of them Lunars, that violated the Neverborn to discover Necromancy.

The argument that economic constraints were a limiting factor just dont seem credible.
 
Sure. But thats the point. Small numbers of Solars were capable of pushing mega projects just fine.
Wait, are you saying the Exalted should have been able to make a new Creation or that they shouldn't? Cause at present the people you're arguing with are saying that making a whole new universe would be considerably more difficult and complicated than any of their canon feats while you're responding "they built a flying city and AI, they'd be fineee."
 
Wait, are you saying the Exalted should have been able to make a new Creation or that they shouldn't? Cause at present the people you're arguing with are saying that making a whole new universe would be considerably more difficult and complicated than any of their canon feats while you're responding "they built a flying city and AI, they'd be fineee."
They shouldnt be able to. But if they thought they could, they would have tried to.

=====
The original argument was that Solars were as capable as Primordials, and could absolutely do things like remaking Creation, just because it was proposed once in the Deliberative.

I argued(my opinion) that the Solar Host werent Primordial-peer, and couldnt do things like that, and that it didnt really represent a serious proposal.

I further argued that if any of the proposers thought it was feasible, one or more of the Celestial Exalts pushing the proposal would have tried at least a proof of concept out in the Wyld; they have the resources to try such megaprojects, even if its only a small patch of territory as a prototype.

And then Yog has been raising economic constraints as a limiting factor.
Thats how we ended up here.
 
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The original argument was that Solars were as capable as Primordials, and could absolutely do things like remaking Creation, just because it was proposed once in the Deliberative.
To be clear here, do you think we're arguing that individual Solars are as great as the Primordials, or that all 300 Solars working together for a common goal are as great? Cause those are very different scenarios.
I further argued that if any of the proposers thought it was feasible, one or more of the Celestial Exalts pushing the proposal would have tried at least a proof of concept out in the Wyld; they have the resources to try such megaprojects, even if its only a small patch of territory as a prototype.
Alternatively, they believed the entire Exalted Host working together could lay the groundwork to get started, but didn't believe they had the necessary knowledge to do it by themselves.

Or they did and it got Balorian Crusaded after the Solar sustaining it got Usurpation'd. Or it got nuked by the Realm Defense Grid when it got too close to Creation, or even it's still there but no one knows how to get there anymore.

Hunting for a hidden prototype for Creation 2.0 made by the Solars would actually be a cool campaign idea.
edit.
That jogged loose a memory, isn't that a Directional Titan? I remember reading that each DT had the supplies necessary to allow the captain to flee to the Wyld and re-create Creation elsewhere if they judge that Creation is lost.
 
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They shouldnt be able to. But if they thought they could, they would have tried to.
Wyld caldron can create pockets of creations wherever an exalted wishes. The exalted used it to expand the boarders of creations. And create custom pockets of creations with unique rules if they wanted, they just needed a reality engine to keep them stable if the land remains unattached to creations proper.
I argued(my opinion) that the Solar Host werent Primordial-peer, and couldnt do things like that, and that it didnt really represent a serious proposal.
The Exalted are above Primordials, they certainly could remake creation if they agreed to do it. Trying to do stuff like that without the agreement to do it means you got killed.
I further argued that if any of the proposers thought it was feasible, one or more of the Celestial Exalts pushing the proposal would have tried at least a proof of concept out in the Wyld; they have the resources to try such megaprojects, even if its only a small patch of territory as a prototype.
Mega projects requires that most elusive of things time. Just look at the 5 metal Shrike, it was build by a mere 3 exalted financed by a 4th dumping his entire 1,000+ year fortune, and it was not even finished by the rebellion. Yet the 5 metal shrike, is still easily superior to the directional titans, which where the products of the mid first age deliberate entire. Just 4 exalted surpassed the works of hundreds of exalted, that how much they had advanced towards the end.

Reminder that the majority of elder exalted had gone full hermit from the deliberative. And their are records that quite a few exalted, holed up in fortresses that where invulnerable to the Dragonblood armies, lead by siderals. The dragonblood had to resort to altering the geomancy to shutdown the defenses just to even be able to attempt to assault these places.
 
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Respectfully? It does follow. The resources available to a First Age Solar are vast beyond imagining.
And the projects attempted are grander still. Do you honestly not have a concept of scaling? It doesn't matter if a solar has access to more resources than currently exists in a real world, if, for their plans, resources of Kardashev 2 civilization are needed. And also time. Time is one resource that all exalts always had a limited supply of. Not in the sense of "I have to do this before I die", but in the sense of "I can be doing other things".
if they are covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act
That's a rather big downside, don't you think?

So, again, uplifted animals are just a subpar option.
 
[x]The flute from Mab and a mundane crib.

[X] Something mundane
-[X]Newborn care package from Sanctuary
-[X]Healing potions for Rosie

[X] Something mundane
-[X] A baby monitor possessed by a Cyber-Devil
 
Why are people voting for mundane options to be frank we don't have to supply those splendors until the day of the deadline or Ivy is about to die. I know I'm never going to vote to make those splendors she didn't give us a time and she gave us a shit deal so she gets them when she gets them.

To be frank that's how we should really be considering our deal making we have years, decades possibly centuries to deliver on these craft projects but our goddaughter is born today and is in definite need of protection even if that is just a being that can phone us instantly if there is any trouble.

To expand on that we just acquired a massive Fallen enemy who work mostly through mortal ends so regular kidnappers with guns are a possibility. We are enemies with the red court so Near human enemies with Mortal weaknesses are a thing. We are enemies of the Jade Court which means spiritual enemies are a thing.

To be frank the girls value as a Target skyrocketed between us accepting the role as godmother and her birth. Not mentioning the traditional responsibilities of godparents the fact of the matter is she's actually a point of Leverage so we need to make the barrier to entry as steep as possible.
 
Disagree.
Extended human habitation in space counts in my opinion.
A diving bell is a vehicle, not a habitation; its closest space equivalent would be something like the Space Shuttle.




Those are not remotely comparable.
For all his delusions of grandeur, Mr Musk's wealth is intrinsically linked to the valuations of external actors and the efforts of other people.

First Age Solar Exalted OWNED populations.
They created new species of sapients for personal convenience; they could could modify your afterlife, whether its tagging you to be reincarnated as a rich, happy person or to be forged into soulsteel.

An Essence 4, Lore 5 Solar with Wyld Shaping Technique + Wyld Cauldron Technology could literally expand Creation on his own and have it integrated into the Loom of Fate.
This is in part how the Solars expanded Creation in the books.

We're in the period of history where a mature Solar who was actually interested in the subject could have put together his own personal resources to start on a mega project.
Like I pointed out up top, Brilliant Shattered Ice built Tzatli herself of her own resources as a showpiece.

The First Age was fucking crazy.



Then I dont understand how you come to your conclusion.
There is nothing quite like having bandits knock on your door at 2AM in a Third World country because someone saw you drive in a new car several days before. Or, to use a US example, getting mugged for your fancy shoes in the wrong part of town.


No its not.
We wouldnt be talking about providing them backup or keeping it secret if it was.


Your prerogative, I guess.



Redeeming the hosts fucks up the Fallen possessing them by derailing their plans.
The point is that these guys were considered to be especially destabilizing, enough to get 3x angels put on permanent "fuck them up" duty. Unlike the Yama Kings et al.

Most of the other evil entities have significant weaknesses which can be exploited.
No need for angelic intervention against someone vulnerable to sunlight, or holy water. Yama Kings are explicitly vulnerable to being killed if they step outside their Hell, and even inside their Hells they are hardly untouchable as Yen Lo will tell you.



Its more that most of their operations do not appear to happen in North America, which do remember is only about 5% of the world's population. At least thats my impression.
Ivy certainly made it clear in Small Favor that Lartessa, for example, has been a very busy person in the 20th century.


We see the Denarians get explicit help from Lucy Down Under in Small Favor to contain the Archive.
I suspect that if they can ask Lucifer himself for aid, they can tap a smorgasbord of lesser infernal resources.


How limited they are is unknown.
We dont actually see how they operate day to day, just how they operate when they come to Chicago to throw down with Harry Dresden. I would caution against assuming most of their work is brute stuff.


Three swordsmen carrying Angels in their swords.



Not really.
Between gear and shields, Dresden's significantly tankier than they are. And certainly a lot killier.
An unfair comparison, of course; hes top 50 in magical brute force, and was trained by people with pretty good pedigrees.


Possession? Yes.
But its not a protection against getting Authority'd; the only Shih defence there is to that is just sheer Willpower. Or maybe getting talismans from actual magic workers.


Their being unorganized is explicitly part of their lore.
The lore also says that training time for a Shih apprentice is 15-20 years, often from childhood.

The first Shih, Yi?
Was explicitly a wizard according to the Demon Hunter X source book page 22.
He apparently didnt know it, but he was.


Dresden is repeatedly characterized at almost the same rate as knowing less about the setting than he assumes.


I have the book beside me, and the Bridges appear to be clear about when something has enhanced effects against vampires, and even distinguishes between Kuejin and Kindred. For example:



Rebels dont need to be particularly successful to attract official oppobrium.

A lot of the time, just their existence attracts retribution. In this case, the emergence of the Shih coincided with other political upheavals in China at the time between the Chou and the Shang; I'd post citations, but my copy of the Demon Hunter sourcebook has issues.

The Celestial Army got nuked 200 years after they and their allies won.
Who nuked them is unknown and unstated.
Could have been Yama Kings, could have been shen.

Most of the shih believe it was the Yama Kings and Kuejin working together.
The books just say the mountains of Kun-Lun exploded and the Celestial Army was wiped off the face of the Earth.
I wasn't arguing about affect I was just mentioning mission statement I'm pretty damn sure they care far more about redemption and free will than harming their plans
 
You dont have to nuke people who arent a threat. You can still choose to do it, whether for revenge, as punishment, a demonstration to someone else, or as part of an empowerment ritual, or even just for the hell of it.

Like I said, we dont know who nuked the Celestial Army even in the modern day.
The usual suspects would usually brag about that sort of thing, but apparently they didnt say a word. For all we know, same dude who smote the Wan Kuei did it.
Can? Yes, nothing is stopping you if you've got them.

But if you nuke people who don't matter while you have enemies that do you're in for a bad time. Your argument requires the Yama Kings to be incompetent and accidentally stumble their way back into power.
 
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