- Location
- Germany
Exalted can kill those.
Once enough superpowered god-killers without a binding function run around the rules will be different anyway.
Chaos for all.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Once enough superpowered god-killers without a binding function run around the rules will be different anyway.
Chaos for all.
-We came to a negotiation with Mab and explicitly offered up information for free.
We could have declined payment, but that wouldnt actually change the debt owed; the Fae would still feel an obligation to balance the scales. There's a reason that Mac's greeting to Mab was "May your scales always remain in balance."
- I think you may be misunderstanding that.
The Fae can make unfair deals as long as the counterparty agrees; see Dresden/Lea, like you pointed out.
But debts and obligations incurred are paid to the best of that Fae's understanding. See, for example, Mab giving Maggie Dresden as a Christmas gift, a ring that duplicated Frozen!Elsa's powers for 24 hours.
Ivy does not have any control over the Archive's access to her memories and understanding, as far as Im aware.
This is not true.
The Primordials who made Creation werent capable of dealing with Raksha on a permanent basis either; their solution was to have a Primordial guarding the borders and burning any Raksha that tried to enter.
Apparently not.
If it were so, the Outsiders would prioritize doing shit like disseminating their version of the Necronomicon on 4chan.
Instead, not fucking with the Outer Gates and Outsiders is literally one of the Laws that the White Council spreads far and wide among the magical community; people who barely practice magic know this.
Its the Archive's job to deal with the designs of Old Ones, which are to normal Outsiders what a housecat is to a sperm whale.
Its been running the Oblivion War for five millenia.
The CIA isnt supposed to deal with organized crime.
Its the same basic reasoning around public health cooperation IRL.
Countries share disease information, and sometimes healthcare resources, in order to weaken disease outbreaks far from their own borders. If the Congo charged for Ebola information, or China gatekept influenza surveillance information, it would pretty much fuck everyone sooner or later.
Thats why noone does it.
Molly vs Cthulu? A full Circle vs Yog-Sothoth? Strongly disagree. Strongly.
Antediluvians and high-tier Methuselahs are Circle-appropriate encounters, not Outer Gods.
When the Exalted Host killed six Primordials, they became Neverborn instead of just going away. And its not just Primordial-scale entities; the hekatonkhire Vodak is unkillable short of physically dropping it into Oblivion. Arad the Hunter keeps coming back, even after everyone from multiple Solars to Luna herself tried to kill it. Same with Vorvin-Derlin, Slayer of Armies.
I would caution against the idea that everything dies like people and gods do.
Even in this Age.
That isnt actually true.
The Archive has been operating for five thousand years; thats not the same thing as its operating on five thousand year-old rules. We have been explicitly told that it has updated its behaviors with time; its keeping a lot of people at a distance is a relatively new adaptation for maintaining the stability of its hosts in the face of accumulated lifetimes of memories.
Thats partly why there's a lineage of people in the loop, instead of it just being an impersonal god-construct.
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To be fair to Ivy, she isn't price gouging us at all. Our own voters keep making over-generous offers, and then we're somehow surprised when people take us up on them.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
Still not making sense here. Molly is not a country she's one person. She has less of an ability to act on an individual basis. Only she can do these excorsisms she can't delegate it.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yeah, which is why I am saying make a different offer.
It is true the Neverborn where only really an issue because Necromancy stops being a thing if the Exalted get rid of them, which what really kept them around. As for the Raksha the Exalted could have had them swear binding oaths to never enter Creation, the Exalted left loophole to allow Raksha into creation on purpose.
Even then the Exalted towards the end of the first age where considering just making the Neverborn into SoulSteel and forging an infinite wall around creation that the Raksha could not pass at all, which would solve both problems.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
It was also implied that this was how we got World of Darkness. Necromancy was only a problem because the Exalted host broke open the toumbs of the Neverborn like a piñata in the hopes of Goodies (Necromancy) will fall out.
Also the Neverborn were not kept undead because of Necromancy. They were kept undead because of Creation and how its soul recycling plant was not built to recycle Primordials, i.e The Exalted Host killed a bunch of Buddhists so hard that they died like Christians.
Molly is making claim to be a Power in the supernatural community.
To be treated on the same scale as other Powers and supernatural nationstates
Same rules apply when you start playing international politics.
Its not like Nemesis is a mass-dispersal infection either.
We dont know how many people it can possess simultaneously, but its a limited number.
Which is why its so careful about who it picks. See how there's only four Nfested in Summer.
Thats not true.
The Neverborn were originally dormant because the victorious Exalted Host went to significant lengths to put them in tombs that would keep them that way. Then the Black Nadir Concordat went and broke some of those tombs open and roused them.
Thats untrue.
The Primordials couldnt do it, which was why Adrien had to play borderguard. The Exalted Host couldnt do it.
You have a greatly inflated idea of the capability of the Exalted Host, even at the height of its power and unity.
Proposal =/= Feasibility. The Solar Host werent actually omnipotent. Nevermind the potential side effects of such a mega project, given that Creation was IIRC reliant on a constant trickle of Wyld energy from the Wyld. Yu-Shan letting the Deliberative run Creation doesnt necessarily stretch to letting them alter shit that affects THEM.
- Location
- Germany
Old Squidhead was temporarily disrupted by a steamship.
I bet on Molly, ten out of ten times.
I'd also bet on a Methuselah vs Cthuhlu though, but we can make it stick with spirit-killers.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
The point is, the Exorcism is not something like a Vaccine that can be mass produced and shared. It is a Service that only a Specific few can do and is a massive time drain where it takes valuable time that Molly can use to do other things.
You said it yourself. Molly is a power and a head of state. Does the President of the United State, personally goes around to foreign hospitals to cure people?
No, a lot of politics are involved and deals are made.
That is the point we are making. Molly's time is both limited and Valuable.
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
Exactly. The context is entirely different here, it's not comparable.
And the only reason the Exalted never dealth with the Neverborn dispite having the means is Necromancy stop working once they remove them and the underworld collapses into oblivion.
No you just underestimate them what the Primordials could do is far less then what the Exalted can do. For example the Rakshasa where bound by Oaths, to the Exalted to be unable to enter creation in numbers enough to form a proper army without an invitation from someone inside creation. Where as before the Rakshasa could send armies at creation whenever they wanted.
First Creation does need the Wyld at all, it powered by the Elemental polls which generation energy by existing. Secondly the point of an infinite wall is that its infinite, in the same way that Malfus could expand infinity,and still be surrounded by the Endless dessert.
The Exalted would still be able to expand creation as much as they wanted and mess around with the Wyld, the wall would be set to keep the Rakshasa, out not the Exalted in. The wall would be around Creation, and if creation gets bigger the wall moves to the new boundary.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Quotes please. Because this is untrue.
Necromancy is powered by the Underworld in Exalted, the Underworld can only exist because the Neverborn exist, and are plugging the path to oblivion. Remove the Neverborn, the underworld is now free to fall into oblivion. And once the underworld is gone Necromancy stops existing.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Necromancy, like Sorcery is a power in Exalted. They are not "powered" by anything. Oblivion and the Underworld/Neverborn are simply the "easiest" way to get it.
Proof? The Ebon Dragon who discovered Necromancy long before anyone else did. See his legend of drinking from the foulest of places and his charm turning him into an undead Primordial.
The Underworld also existed LONG before the Primordial War. The Primordials dying broke it. If it did not exist, how could it break with the deaths of the Primordials?
So yeah, please quote the book where it says Necromancy is powered by Oblivion.
The Underworld did not exist until the gods rebelled
against the Primordials. The immortal gods remember
this time and the proper cycle of reincarnation that the
Primordials ordained. When people died, their rational,
higher souls, called hun, left their corpses and immediately
entered Lethe—not a place, but a state that washed away
all memories before the souls entered new lives. The animal,
lower souls, called po, stayed with the bodies and dissipated
as the cadavers decayed.
Of Oblivion, the gods are less certain. Perhaps Oblivion
existed as a place or state in its own right; perhaps it existed
as part of the primal Wyld, which necessarily included the
potential for nonexistence along with every other possibility.
No entity within Creation ever faced Oblivion, however.
Physically and spiritually, there were no true endings, only
changes of form and state.
The death of the first Primordial changed everything.
Creation's authors had not bound themselves to Creation's
rules. A slain Primordial could not reincarnate, but it was too
powerful simply to disappear. The birth of the Underworld
resolved this paradox.
against the Primordials. The immortal gods remember
this time and the proper cycle of reincarnation that the
Primordials ordained. When people died, their rational,
higher souls, called hun, left their corpses and immediately
entered Lethe—not a place, but a state that washed away
all memories before the souls entered new lives. The animal,
lower souls, called po, stayed with the bodies and dissipated
as the cadavers decayed.
Of Oblivion, the gods are less certain. Perhaps Oblivion
existed as a place or state in its own right; perhaps it existed
as part of the primal Wyld, which necessarily included the
potential for nonexistence along with every other possibility.
No entity within Creation ever faced Oblivion, however.
Physically and spiritually, there were no true endings, only
changes of form and state.
The death of the first Primordial changed everything.
Creation's authors had not bound themselves to Creation's
rules. A slain Primordial could not reincarnate, but it was too
powerful simply to disappear. The birth of the Underworld
resolved this paradox.
Necromancy is the art by which powerful individuals
can enforce their will on the Underworld wholesale. It
is the Void's counterpart to sorcery. While sorcery draws
on and shifts the potentially infinite Essence available in
Creation, necromancy uses the quintessential decay of
Oblivion to alter like quantities of Essence. Like sorcery,
necromancy has three circles: Shadowlands, Labyrinth
and Void, also called Iron, Onyx and Obsidian, respectively. Each is roughly equal in might to the equivalent circle of sorcery—but not equal in flexibility
can enforce their will on the Underworld wholesale. It
is the Void's counterpart to sorcery. While sorcery draws
on and shifts the potentially infinite Essence available in
Creation, necromancy uses the quintessential decay of
Oblivion to alter like quantities of Essence. Like sorcery,
necromancy has three circles: Shadowlands, Labyrinth
and Void, also called Iron, Onyx and Obsidian, respectively. Each is roughly equal in might to the equivalent circle of sorcery—but not equal in flexibility
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Winning Vote
Arc 11 Post 28: Untwisting Truths
Untwisting Truths
7th of January 2007 A.D.
While you certainly do not object to making a fourth talisman for the Ventori or the archive herself, there is no escaping the fact that the most readily available reagents for your work are bodies. "Or souls," a reminder you could have done without comes from the depths of your mind wrapped in a mussing about breaking the Archive's restrictions, giving her present host dominion over magic and lore of old. "If any of the Seers could it would be the one who has known no other life, who understands the intricacies of its power as one might know the back of her own hand, or the beat of her heart."
Shaking off the thought you raise three fingers. "An exorcism for every shard bound, not to speculate about other circumstances under which I might do it of course." Translation: I'd do it for free, but I am playing along.
The girl nods, a sparkle of understanding in her eyes. Part of you wants to ask if it's always like this, as though you are a politician or a lawyer hunting for probable deniability, but really you know it is. Power is power.
As the two of you step onto the shore of the lake she approaches Titania to whisper something in her ear, briefly looking like a kid asking her very well dressed aunt for a treat. Add that one to the bin of thoughts that are not for sharing.
Then the Archive pulls tightly wrapped pieces of colored ribbon out of her sleeve, the first time you had seen her use any props for her magic. Blue, white, red, black and green... the colors of the elements five each one covered in symbols stitched in the other four colors: Script flowing from logogram to syllabic script and even some bits that looks like they are binary.
Not that you have a lot of time to read it since she tosses all five of them in the air and, frowning in concentration weaves them together as they flash in the light of eternal Summer They dance in twos and threes, four together then all five. Space itself seems to bend and bloom in a way that makes you feel a little giddy. A dodecahedral complex, the thought does not come in English, but in that other language that is to English what English is to birdcalls.
"That'll hold 'em," the Archive proclaims testing one of the floating ribbons the way a violinist might caress bow to string.
"That would be even stronger if you did it in five dimensions," you muse aloud.
"And a castle is sturdier than a tent, but it's impolite to build a castle on someone else's land," she snorts, looking a little giddy herself.
"If you are entirely prepared..." Titania is too polite to sigh, but you can feel she'd like to which... Hey, progress, she doesn't think I'm about to do soul surgery with a chainsaw if she's relaxed enough to feel impatient.
So one by one they are brought before you, those damned by the touch of the Enemy. Here in the heart of the faerie realm to which they had been sworn, by arcane art bounded. To the elements you call to witness, to hold fast that which is of them and cast out that which is not, to the moon most bright to give shape to shapeless shadow that the eye of the sun might fall upon it, that the stars might chart its fate.
Unlike with Maeve the murk takes no many legged shape, to scuttle or to strike, held fast by the precise coordinates of the Archive's working, not even able to speak to spill their bile on their killers. The three aspects seem like nothing so much as uneven shards of black glass tearing themselves out of flesh and spirit, shattering against the brass of your blade with great din. Essence flows through you as it had never done before, like a waterfall hurtling from on high. At first you see only disjointed images, a splattering of hate. Then a little more...
It had not wanted to attack after the ritual began because It knew you could devour its shards and thereby potentially learning hastily made plans, making it all for naught. Oh how it hates you, kind of flattering in a sick sort of way. Diversify, disperse, There is cold resolve, wrapped in the self-loathing that defines He Who Walks Beside. Sloppy, comfortable, took the easy path to power, predictable, open to counter. "Mortals, mortals were mightier than the Betrayers and the Fools knew, move not with two hands, but two thousand, two million, two billion..."
There at the end you see flames set to wood that is not dry but green, stacked around a stake and you know at once the thought that it had attempted to keep from those pieces which you would consume. Persecution, its thoughts had turned to tearing aside the veil and letting fear of magic and those who practice it.
Lost 9 Essence (-15 Exorcisms; +6 MiM; -2 Excellencies +2 Secret Found) -> Now at 6/15
Before you can settle there's a splash, the great narwhal sinks under the surface of the water, its perlescent horn dim then Titania speaks: "You have done a great service to this me and to all who stand under the light of summer. Three who had been stolen from our company by stealth and spite have been restored and so three favors I grant you to name as you will so long as it does not harm to the Court or its great work."
Gained 3 Favors with the Summer Court
What do you reply?
[] Graciously thank Titania
[] Ask that for one of her favors she forgive Harry for his his part in Aurora's death
[] Write in
OOC: Molly did not use an excellency on her first insight roll since she did not know if she would succeed on Murder is Meat as the actions were simultaneous, not sequential so she did not know if she would have essence to spare.
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[] Graciously thank Titania
Asking her to forgive Harry may be something we do, but not here, not now. Not in front of her whole court. That's a request to be made in a more intimate setting.
Asking her to forgive Harry may be something we do, but not here, not now. Not in front of her whole court. That's a request to be made in a more intimate setting.
Silvereagle21
Soaring through the Sky
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Graciously thank Titania
- Location
- Canada
repeated those two words
no space
thought
Nemesis is going for the Masquerade now. It realizes that Molly has upended the table and the centuries-long plots to infiltrate and weaken Summer/Winter/the White Council are not going to cut it with the OCP that Molly is actively hunting it down.
We should definitely spread the word to the White Council and leverage our mortal contacts for that worst-case scenario. It's not exactly difficult, in this modern age of cameras and the internet, for someone to reveal the supernatural in a way that sparks panic and fear. Heck, all it has to do is reveal the truth that many South American nations are being influenced by literal blood-sucking monsters, and we're looking at civil war and internal unrest within those countries with international clamor abroad and a negative global view of the supernatural.
We might even consider preempting Nemesis if it looks to get the jump on us. Revealing magic on our own terms will be better than it orchestrating a massacre on video. It still has the option to try and instigate things after the reveal, but at least the Masquerade wouldn't be shattered 9/11 style.
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My point was that the rules were reasonable at the time and have been updated over the years. Especially since the archive mantle is meant to be one you take up willingly and pass on when you don't want the job anymore. Ivy's case is a tragedy because she was the last viable host and it was forced on her.
The rules you're annoyed by are ones like requiring payment for things we'd charge for and maintaining a valuable but delicate political position instead of joining our circle. That's not exactly an objective reason to say they're outdated. Even if she wasn't required to asking for payment and defending her political stance would be fair calls.
I also maintain a chaotic pack of god killers won't make the Archive obsolete or easy to deal with. If the locals are weakened and distracted by exalted affairs then they'll be vulnerable to the things she's meant to fight.
In terms of fighting her; the exalted would likely win eventually, but it wouldn't be without cost or consequence. She's very dangerous. I'd prefer to fight Iku and that Nemesis pawn together than throw hands with her.
You're missing my point. We were the counterpart here. We could have counter offered her a deal that wasn't technically free but effectively cost her nothing. To lose the enemy dots alone, or for her best beer recommendation. We could have screwed ourselves in that deal on purpose to make a point.
We could also have agreed to sell as a subscription; all serious exorcisms for outsider business in exchange for fey agents handling any business we're unable to continue as a result.
They don't have to agree with our value judgment or understand the benefit before they're allowed to agree.
It's exceedingly obvious to anyone looking in on this that we wanted to be well paid.
- Location
- Germany
One of the rules I'm annoyed at is for example, that the Mantle goes to a descendant and it looks like it doesn't allow Archives to just give it to a volunteer.
But even if it were only the most minimal and light rules possible, I'd want to break them on principle.
The creator of the mantle simply has no right to tell any human living today shit.
Same for the Fey Mantles and so on.
No gods, no masters.
I believe that the Oblivion War as a concept exists only because there aren't enough ways to permakill things around.
These Old Ones have clearly been bound, banished, put to sleep or otherwise defeated before.
The basic problem is that there doesn't seem to be a better method to truly put them out of the game than to have humanity forget them.
That whole thing becomes completly obsolete when the Old Ones have to play by the rules that a defeat can lead to them getting killed for good.
There's simply no need for an Archive anymore, at least not with its current tasks.
In fact it should be possible to go through the list of ancient evils and put down any that are still chained or sleeping for good as a little side-activity for Exalted or Circles of them.