[X] BronzeTongue
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
@DragonParadox a Question on the Qiao
What exactly are the health issues? For Example,
So Exalted can use the Qiao using Essence and rolling WP instead and have no "Health" issues due to being a Demigod.
What exactly are the health issues? For Example,
Are Exalted affected by the "Once Combat is over..." parts?
Last edited:
They are not , the health issues are a direct consequence of using the magic you need to live (and also potentially giving themselves an imbalance). Exalts use Essence, which is the result of the god-engine in their soul. Technically speaking Molly has chi, she can't access it because it is like teaching yourself to row a boat with your ears when you have perfectly good hands for it.
The amount of health she has in Shintai is not a factor in any way to my argument here.
Quite a lot of the pros given to voting for Ox-body weren't about mooks, but about boss fights, exactly as there. The debate was centered around the fact that we had a tendency to panic as soon as a boss touched our health bar and go shintai in answer and so having one more Ox-body would allow us to stay in our base form longer, once again, during boss fights, so that we could use the healing going shintai gives more effectively.
Which is my point, Ox-body was told that it would stop what is happening to happen, and look where we are now.
Appeal to tradition is a fallacy though.
Of course not. If you remember the context of discussion of activating Shintai in every fight, it concerned purchasing the perfect defence. People who opposed it said that Ox Body will help to tough out more damage, allowing to use Shintai more effectively. The perfect defence is especially suited for countering single boss-level enemies, especially CCI, which allows to block all attacks from a single enemy for a turn.
Moreover, the discussion at the time was centered around fight with Arianna, she wasn't any kind of mook, dealed a bit damage and people panicked using Shintai. Now, we are at exactly same position.
So, I think, you are being misleading here.
Health didn't factor into this time, for me anyway. Shintai was tempting here because outsider powered god is clearly here as part of a trap is the sort of thing you want maximum firepower for.
It's worth noting that we have not had real cause to use Shintai more than once an arc yet, but this time we used it on the first item in our itinerary. Which means that Shintai is going to be difficult to use at best for every following item. The ox body stuff will be more critical here on in.
It's also still true that there are fights we implicitly don't need Shintai in anymore, like when we killed that outer knight.
Later that got dropped to basically nothing, but you can see where the chapter itself wasn't completely updated around it where Molly takes one point of damage and worries she can't take another hit like that. Because under the situation at the time of initial posting we legitimately could have died if she rolled slightly better on the next turn.
Voting was basically over by the time the corrections were in place.
It's worth noting that we have not had real cause to use Shintai more than once an arc yet, but this time we used it on the first item in our itinerary. Which means that Shintai is going to be difficult to use at best for every following item. The ox body stuff will be more critical here on in.
It's also still true that there are fights we implicitly don't need Shintai in anymore, like when we killed that outer knight.
That isn't exactly right, or rather is dismissive about the changes that happened. We panicked because of some features getting overlooked and Ortega taking just under half of Molly's then health track through our full buff set and around our active defense with every indication she could do it again as many times as she wanted.
Later that got dropped to basically nothing, but you can see where the chapter itself wasn't completely updated around it where Molly takes one point of damage and worries she can't take another hit like that. Because under the situation at the time of initial posting we legitimately could have died if she rolled slightly better on the next turn.
Voting was basically over by the time the corrections were in place.
The vote is still pretty split and I have a bit of a headache (I think I might be getting a cold).
Given how mechanically complex the next update is I'm going to leave this up until tomorrow morning.
Given how mechanically complex the next update is I'm going to leave this up until tomorrow morning.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I'm assuming that you mean't 'every boss fight' here.
I could've sworn that people argued for Ox-body with the logic of limiting needed uses per arc by extending the time we can go without while fighting mooks until meeting a boss that requires us to go Shintia because a lot of Molly's power is locked behind it along with the free heal.
The case with Arianna was unique, she did a lot more damage initially until it was rewritten but most people voted right after the update with the original damage value in mind before it got changed. Not to mention people wanted to respond to her taunts in turn.
With the altered dmg value I doubt people would've wanted to go Shintia right after especially if we had an extra Ox-body or to it would've been hard to justify. You could argue the same for Perfect Defense but then we would've wasted a mote on negligable dmg that we could've used instead on an exelency.
I don't think there has ever been a case in which someone did only chip damage and we responded with Shintia. And even with perfect defense we likely would've ended up using Shintia anyways due to her absurd regen and the hostage/heal she ran for.
Last edited:
I dont think I agree.
We can cast out Outsiders or Fallen, but only 1 at a time and at a cost of a third of our Essence pool. We can cut down armies with Obsidian Butterflies, but they can defend against it by seeking cover. We can nuke a city with Rain of Spiders, but anyone who walks indoors or under a roof is protected.
Ancient Sorcery appears to be both significantly more expensive to pull off, and more limited in scope and/or duration.
I just took a brief look at the 1-5 dot tiers of disciplines available to kueijin, and unless Im missing something significant, no they cant. For that matter, I dont think Red Court vampires or Black Court vampires have any access to Disciplines that can do anything about that either. So they get dumpstered in open combat too.
I feel weird arguing that the Infernal needs...moderation in interpretation.
But if not, this interpretation would essentially trivialize most of the overt combat threats from the canon setting(s)and require the wholesale invention of new ones or major changes to the setting.
Not to mention that it poaches a bunch of the functions of at least 4 other charms in Molly's charmset:
- Breath of the Wicked City: 2 dots
- Sun Denying Spite: 3 dots
- All-Devouring Depths: 5 dots
- World-Grinding Devastation: 5 dots
My opinion is that this is a Rule Zero situation.
For reference, this is one of Molly's designated armykillers
Note that World-Grinding Devastation and All-Devouring Depths both have Signature effect, suggesting that the author didnt intend that shintai being used to modify the world would be able to obsolete them.
In addition to what @BronzeTongue and @BoredMan have said?
1)This is a boss fight with a god-monster.
Iku-Turso was benchmarked as an incarna-tier entity in this setting. Seeker is supposed to be weaker than him, just with more freedom to act. This is precisely the sort of situation for which shintai is designed for.
2)This isnt a 1v1 boss duel.
The boss here brought a support army and may have other tricks.
And since perfect defenses are not free to use, we have a limited pool to power said PDs.
I mean, we've spent 6m and 3wp just in pre-combat buffs, and thats with Ivy having ensured we started with a full gas tank.
3)Note also that second Ox-Body is why we have 29 HLs instead of 25.
It increased our shintai health bar by 17%, in addition to increasing our base health by around 44%.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] BronzeTongue
Well, this is not very convincing, because while BronzeTongue made correct points, they weren't about perfect defence, but about the reaction of the posters on Arianna. Additionally, I didn't find BoredMan's arguments convincing at all and I addressed them in my comment earlier.
Also, I can say that "this is a boss fight with a god-monster. Iku-Turso was benchmarked as an incarna-tier entity in this setting." This is precisely sort of situation for which perfect defence is designed for.
That's where you are wrong:
So, I believe they can be counted as attacks from Iku-Torso, which could be nullified for 2 motes within a turn as all other attacks (for example, attempts to swallow) from the boss, if we had had CCI.
And we wouldn't need to do it, because with the perfect defence Viridian Exoskeleton and Steel Skin are obsolete, and Shintai is not needed at this stage.
The addition to HP is useless, if enemy attacks can't pierce perfect defence.
Last edited:
So, I tried to calculate how crazy a combat-optimized chargen + some prep time Lunar can get. It got... very crazy. As in "I think I might have made a mistake somewhere" crazy. Please, someone check my calcls:
Assume full moon.
From chargen, we take Full Moon Excellency (1 dot caste charm), Crouching Tiger Exercise (2 dots, caste charm), Coiled Cobra Stance (3 dots, caste char ), and Flesh Sculpting Art (4 dots, non-caste charm bought with freebie points). The remaining freebie point is used for Brawl 4, and 1 point of WIllpower.
The charm descriptions are below:
Flesh Sculpting Art allows you to raise physical attributes to 10, so we start with Dex 10, Str 10, Con 10. Throwing in Beastman rage form gives you Dex 14, Str 11, Con 11, aggravated natural damage, and +2soak (I took Predator King and Rugged Hide).
Now, we rolls attack.
Attack with natural weapons is Dex + Brawl. We use Crouching Tiger Exercise, which doubles physical attributes used for the attack, so we are rolling 14*2+10 (Excellency) + 4 (Brawl ability) = 42 dice to attack, at DC 6, 1s don't substract successes (as I understand what caste attributes do), 10s are worth 2 successes. On average that's 27.7 successes. Let's call it 27 successes. So, we add 26 dice to our damage resolution dice pool.
Base damage dice pool is 22 (since we are using double of Strength per Coiled Cobra Stance). We add 26 dice on top of that, and 10 dice from strenth excellency. That's 58 dice against difficulty 6. On average we get 38 successes. We throw on 10 automatic successes from Crouching Tiger excercise, resulting in 48 aggravated damage.
Our enemy uses perfect defense or dies instantly. Next turn we don't benefit from Coiled Coba Stance, so we "only" roll 14+10+4=28 dice worth of attack dice. That's 18.5 successes. So, we throw in 17 bonus damage dice on the attack roll. That's 11+17+10=38 dice of aggravated damage. 25 average successes. The target uses a perfect defense or dies.
All this time we are using Constitution excellency, which means that we have 11+10+2=23 dice of soak, essentially ignoring everything that they throw at us, bar perfect effects.
So, yeah, a chargen combat-optimized lunar, with several days of prep could absolutely wreck our sh*t. We could run away, yes, but in direct combat? We are toast.
EDIT: basically, you need scene-long perfect defenses, or a combat-oriented lunar would wreck you.
Assume full moon.
From chargen, we take Full Moon Excellency (1 dot caste charm), Crouching Tiger Exercise (2 dots, caste charm), Coiled Cobra Stance (3 dots, caste char ), and Flesh Sculpting Art (4 dots, non-caste charm bought with freebie points). The remaining freebie point is used for Brawl 4, and 1 point of WIllpower.
The charm descriptions are below:
By looping raw Essence through her body, the Full
Moon may perform incredible physical feats.
System: Select one of the following Attributes
when purchasing this Charm: Strength, Dexterity, or
Stamina. At any time, the player may reflexively spend
1 Essence to add the Attribute rating in dice to all rolls
using this Attribute (including damage and soak rolls)
for (Essence rating + 1) turns in combat, or minutes
outside of combat. The added dice are based off of the
Attribute's rating on the Lunar's character sheet, not
the Attributes of the form she currently wears.
This Charm can be repurchased to unlock addi-
tional Attributes, but Essence must be spent to add
dice to each Attribute separately. Full Moon Castes get
all versions of this Charm with a single purchase.
Moon may perform incredible physical feats.
System: Select one of the following Attributes
when purchasing this Charm: Strength, Dexterity, or
Stamina. At any time, the player may reflexively spend
1 Essence to add the Attribute rating in dice to all rolls
using this Attribute (including damage and soak rolls)
for (Essence rating + 1) turns in combat, or minutes
outside of combat. The added dice are based off of the
Attribute's rating on the Lunar's character sheet, not
the Attributes of the form she currently wears.
This Charm can be repurchased to unlock addi-
tional Attributes, but Essence must be spent to add
dice to each Attribute separately. Full Moon Castes get
all versions of this Charm with a single purchase.
The Lunar's muscles bunch and surge as she feeds
them Essence almost to the point of self-destruction.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence to add the Lu-
nar's Strength as automatic successes to any Strength
roll or Strength-based damage roll, but also suffer 1
level of unsoakable lethal damage in the process.
them Essence almost to the point of self-destruction.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence to add the Lu-
nar's Strength as automatic successes to any Strength
roll or Strength-based damage roll, but also suffer 1
level of unsoakable lethal damage in the process.
The Lunar draws down, tightening her muscles,
marshaling her will, and maximizing her potential.
When she finally strikes, it is like a thunderclap, an
avalanche, a god taking the first step of the dance that
ends the world.
System: The character spends an entire turn tak-
ing no action whatsoever – not even to defend herself
– and spends 1 Essence. On her next turn, the first
action she takes doubles her physical Attributes after
accounting for any shapeshifting.
marshaling her will, and maximizing her potential.
When she finally strikes, it is like a thunderclap, an
avalanche, a god taking the first step of the dance that
ends the world.
System: The character spends an entire turn tak-
ing no action whatsoever – not even to defend herself
– and spends 1 Essence. On her next turn, the first
action she takes doubles her physical Attributes after
accounting for any shapeshifting.
The Lunar may sculpt living flesh and bone as
though it were modeling clay, creating masterworks or
horrors as her whims and skills dictate.
System: This Charm's effects are identical to
those of the Vicissitude powers Fleshcraft and Bone-
craft, found on pages 241 and 242 of V20. The Lunar
substitutes Essence in place of blood points, and any
alterations she inflicts on other characters automatical-
ly revert after (Essence rating) days unless the subject
spends a permanent Willpower point to keep them.
though it were modeling clay, creating masterworks or
horrors as her whims and skills dictate.
System: This Charm's effects are identical to
those of the Vicissitude powers Fleshcraft and Bone-
craft, found on pages 241 and 242 of V20. The Lunar
substitutes Essence in place of blood points, and any
alterations she inflicts on other characters automatical-
ly revert after (Essence rating) days unless the subject
spends a permanent Willpower point to keep them.
Flesh Sculpting Art allows you to raise physical attributes to 10, so we start with Dex 10, Str 10, Con 10. Throwing in Beastman rage form gives you Dex 14, Str 11, Con 11, aggravated natural damage, and +2soak (I took Predator King and Rugged Hide).
Now, we rolls attack.
Attack with natural weapons is Dex + Brawl. We use Crouching Tiger Exercise, which doubles physical attributes used for the attack, so we are rolling 14*2+10 (Excellency) + 4 (Brawl ability) = 42 dice to attack, at DC 6, 1s don't substract successes (as I understand what caste attributes do), 10s are worth 2 successes. On average that's 27.7 successes. Let's call it 27 successes. So, we add 26 dice to our damage resolution dice pool.
Base damage dice pool is 22 (since we are using double of Strength per Coiled Cobra Stance). We add 26 dice on top of that, and 10 dice from strenth excellency. That's 58 dice against difficulty 6. On average we get 38 successes. We throw on 10 automatic successes from Crouching Tiger excercise, resulting in 48 aggravated damage.
Our enemy uses perfect defense or dies instantly. Next turn we don't benefit from Coiled Coba Stance, so we "only" roll 14+10+4=28 dice worth of attack dice. That's 18.5 successes. So, we throw in 17 bonus damage dice on the attack roll. That's 11+17+10=38 dice of aggravated damage. 25 average successes. The target uses a perfect defense or dies.
All this time we are using Constitution excellency, which means that we have 11+10+2=23 dice of soak, essentially ignoring everything that they throw at us, bar perfect effects.
So, yeah, a chargen combat-optimized lunar, with several days of prep could absolutely wreck our sh*t. We could run away, yes, but in direct combat? We are toast.
EDIT: basically, you need scene-long perfect defenses, or a combat-oriented lunar would wreck you.
Last edited:
While those warriors are metaphysically a part of him, they do get their attack actions mechanically (as a way to get around the action economy issue that has sunk so many bosses), think of them as his autonomous drones.
Storm Shintai 5 can spin up a hurricane on top of a city. If that city isn't built to cope with hurricanes or worse has a a topography that is vulnerable to flooding that could cause enormous damage.
More generally, my view is that DP made a mistake when he allowed the charm to have any mechanical effect whatsoever beyond the -1 DC. TO my mind, the charm allows you to superimpose the theme of your inner world on the local landscape to the degree that it makes your actions easier. It has no other mechanical impact on you or anyone else. Apart from that it just changes the aesthetics. It sets a dramatic scene, and that scene favours the Infernal in a small but significant way.
It's not freeform reality warping.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
No?
Fleshcraft from Vicissitude allows you to change the target's Appearance or add soak at the cost of Strength or Health.
Bonecraft either deals direct damage or allows you to grow bone-weapons.
Neither of those changes you physical stats for the better.
You are totally over-reading a level 2 Vampire-Discipline that I'd say every Red capable of crafting a Flesh-Mask has.
Edit: Seriously, look at any VTM book. Many Tcimisce characters have their clan-discipline on 2, none have perfect stats.
Last edited:
- Location
- In the Grail's Church
Unless my version of V20 is lying to me, you can't use Fleshcraft or Bonecraft to increase any attribute but Appearance. So you couldn't use Flesh Sculpting Art to cheat physical attributes.
A Lunar, however, can have their Totem form be a Bygone by taking Atavistic Legend Form (•••) at chargen. This includes dragons.
An adult wyrm in particular has 13 strengh, 11 dex and 10 stamina which is slightly worse than what you outlined, but still pretty busted.
Edit: ninja'd
No, perfect defenses were designed for situations where you cant dodge or parry or soak a massive incoming attack.
That might be a boss's windup attack.
Or it could be a car bomb wired in by a crimeboss. Or a gas explosion in your house.
QM has spoken on this above me.
Thats the wrong interpretation. Just like Splintered Gale's Signature effect would be Molly spawning a mini-boss squad that all count as individual attackers, our opponent here brings a mook army.
Respectfully? This betrays a grave misunderstanding of how perfect defenses work, or fit into the meta.
An Exalt with barely 15m cannot actually depend on PD spamming.
Fights do not last for 1 turn.
I mean, do remember that CCI can cost you up to 3m for a single turn-long activation; thats 20% of Molly Essence pool.
Spam it five times under those conditions and you are bone dry in 5 turns/15 seconds, without having spent Essence on anything else.
Even in Exalted 2E, where Exalts get Essence regen per turn, nobody uses perfect defenses that way.
And PDs were explicitly patched so they werent cheap enough to be spammed.
No it doesnt.
Fleshcraft said:
The Vampire disciplines in detail.
They allow you to raise or drop Appearance, or to swap Strength for soak, or to turn bone into weapons for the cost of HP
Its not a generalized buff charm.
Last edited:
Ah, ok, yeah. That's rather embarrassing. I mean, you can still get a pretty damn busted build fairly easily with a lunar and Flesh Sculpting. You just need an additon of Quicksilver Second Face, so you raise all your socials to 5 and appearance to 10.
So, not at chargen, but quite quickly with a cooperative circle you can do some scary stuff. Let me think a bit about this. I am still fairly sure that with just a couple of charms a lunar starts throwing around 20+ or 30+ dice on all attacks, constantly.