Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

That's... a bold take right there. Collapse of the Soviet union involved a lot of fighting in a lot of places. Leaving aside everything else, there was an August Coup. And then you have Chechnya Wars. And arguably Aphgan war was a part of that. So, sorry, no, I don't agree.
There was violence, but it ultimately wasn't warfare that pushed the USSR to that point. Getting too far into this will get off topic fast, but I think it's fair to say that you don't need to go to maximum chaos mode to pursue a conflict.


From my perspective this is a hopelessly naive perspective that is bound to leave the situation worse than it is right now, and waste precious time and resources. Point of order: I am not saying that humanity shouldn't be strengthened, I am saying that expecting this to minimize transitional chaos is unrealistic.
It's transitional chaos that's going to happen one way or another as technology develops and the masquerade inevitably comes down.

Working to prepare for that and setting up groups like the paranet to fight low grade conflicts to push predators out of human spaces is a lot more manageable, and we have a lot of other options to go with it.

It'd also have the effect of setting humans up with a seat at the table and not yet another faction of supernatural post-humans to rule over them.

There isn't an easy and clean route for something like this, but the amount of harm and quality of results vary.


Supernatural forces aren't stupid. Ravana has nukes, MIkaboshi controls Chinese stock exchange, Lara Raith can call in USA military forces.
So they aren't stupid, but they will let us roll up all the exalts? Right.

They might not be stupid, but they aren't all knowing or particularly cooperative among themselves either. We can eat the proverbial whale one bite at a time with less difficulty and collateral than trying to swallow it while.


Have I ever said that we should be opening Black Vault first? I didn't and I repeatedly mentioned that this would be a final step in a long line of preparation. Zeroth step is finding more about Dragonblooded and looking into their revival. First step would be finding another infernal exaltation shard, and releasing it. One shard. Then convincing the new infernal to our point of view. Rinse and repeat until you freed them all, and you have a society of ~50 E5 infernals. One that's stable and broadly acceptable. Then do the same with Abyssals. Then, and only then, think about Black Vault, unless you can make it so exaltations are released one by one.
If exaltations were that easy to control on a regular basis then the people who made them wouldn't have had some many issues keeping them in line.

I'm extremely doubtful of this plan to somehow keep the superpowered cats that are the other exalted in line, that we will actually succeed every time we pull an new one, and that it won't just kick of a race for exalted servants we don't have the legs to stay in.

Call a tech up and growing pro mortal supernatural groups optimistic while planning to try assemble what appears to be an army of arch demons while the supernatural world gormlessly watches is ridiculous.


Yes, as it proves my point - wizards are as dangerous as exalts, if in a different way. So, you should be arguing first about those, and then applying similar solutions to exalts.
No they aren't and no it doesn't because that just isn't true. DF wizards aren't really WoD mages, they aren't demiurges waiting to happen. They can be very dangerous, but they take a lot of work to get there and fundamentally don't have the same sort of capabilities.

Their occurrence rate of all things is barely relevant. Both appearing out in the wild doesn't make them particularly similar in any other way.


Years, not decades, and they would be doing much more insidious and hard to detect damage in that time than a raging solar running into a White Court compound.
No, decades to centuries. Molly got moderately useful in canon she was stupidly gifted and good at subtle stuff, but even she wasn't really ready to square up with most of the things she got dragged up to the point where she became the Winter lady. Look at the difference between her and Harry, Harry and Luccio, or Luccio and MCoy.

Subtly is certainly valuable, but it does make up for the gap. Especially since exalts aren't obligated to be stupid and can build to play that game better themselves.


If you honestly believe that wizards are just as good and plentifully available why do you want exalted instead of dedicating our time to a wizard army?

It's pretty clear the exalted bring a lot of unique capabilities to the table, which is what makes them valuable and this comparison too loose to really suggest anything.
 
Earth could be one of the pillars of new creation keeping it propped up without spilling Outside. Which would explain why a lot of nasties are so interested in it. At least we don't have to worry about 7 Keys like in Tales from the Crypt: Demon Knight.
There are basically infinite possibilities. Creation was full of pocket worlds many of them larger than our universe. DF could have been anything from the White God's "Kingdom" to a Luner pocket, a God's hideaway to dozens of other possibilities.

Especially considering how many ways there are to create worlds in Exalted in such a way that they have always retroactively existed. Which does explain everything saying that how long ago it was is the wrong question.
 
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There was violence, but it ultimately wasn't warfare that pushed the USSR to that point. Getting too far into this will get off topic fast, but I think it's fair to say that you don't need to go to maximum chaos mode to pursue a conflict.
It can go off topic first, and the last thj g I'll say is that, not being a professional historian, I believe you underestimate the effects of violent conflicts, and death, in the setup, proceedings, and outcome of Soviet collapse.
So they aren't stupid, but they will let us roll up all the exalts? Right.
Again, we don't need all. Don't even need a majority. A plurality, and preventing enemy factions from obtaining one would be enough for me.
If exaltations were that easy to control on a regular basis then the people who made them wouldn't have had some many issues keeping them in line.

I'm extremely doubtful of this plan to somehow keep the superpowered cats that are the other exalted in line, that we will actually succeed every time we pull an new one, and that it won't just kick of a race for exalted servants we don't have the legs to stay in.

Call a tech up and growing pro mortal supernatural groups optimistic while planning to try assemble what appears to be an army of arch demons while the supernatural world gormlessly watches is ridiculous.
Fivescore fellowship worked. And J never said it would be easy, but each success would make follow up successes easier.

If you honestly believe that wizards are just as good and plentifully available why do you want exalted instead of dedicating our time to a wizard army?
Not as good. As dangerous. In different ways than exalted, but equally dangerous to the world.
 
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This is getting a touch far afield here though. Either way the point stands that exalts fit in the classical hero box as defined in classical literature analysis; glory and power without the moral concerns of say superman attached to it
That was my point, glory and strenght were aspirational virtues. Those were considered good things to persue. The heroes are still considered good for pursuing those things. There morality is very much a factor in them being a hero, not just power.
 
Oh, an idea (would you mind telling us Ivy's thought about this) - make it not as an adornment, but instead as a Fascination:
This Splendor defines that which cannot threaten those within its influence, according to the
Splendor's character as defined by appropriate Form Elements.
It provides immunity to damage from wind, cold, and electricity (air); being crushed, cut, or
pierced by stone or metal (earth); being burned (fire); being drowned (water); being poisoned or
struck by wooden objects (wood); disease (death); possession (spirit); or the twisting of the mind
by supernatural powers (dreams). If its protection is bestowed by a Fascination, it lasts for a
number of hours equal to the Splendor's rating, and may be set to persist indefinitely while
within the Splendor's influence in the case of Forms such as Form of the Hearth.

If more than one characteristic is drawn upon when this Element grants its Protection, then
instead of invincibility, damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to
bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession
and thought alteration become the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's
rating) to immediately shake the effect off, and immunity to disease becomes the ability to make
a Stamina roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's rating) to immediately shake the infection off.
The form would be something like a miniature silver skull with two hollow needle teeth. If you willingly let it drink a drop of your blood (the blood disappears inside, is consumed and cannot be used for anything), then the splendor "remembers" you, and will grant you protection while withing its 360 degree line of sight.

The idea is not to provide a direct benefit to her - she already has access to Library: everything. The idea is to dodge the blocks of the Archive. She cannot tell us what she knows, so she instead manifests a book / scroll / writing out of her collection (this is a custom variant of the splendor), and we read that, without her directly needing to tell us or anyone anything.

To be nitpicky (I am not arguing, I am ok with this judgment) - nowhere in Sacred Protection text does it say that the source of damage has to be external. For example, would a wood-aligned Sacred Protection prevent you from poisoning yourself? Would a death-aligned Sacred Protection protect you from auto-brewery syndrome?

In case of mind twisting by one's own magic, there's even a downside directly built it - while the splendor is active, if your own magic cannot twist your mind, you cannot grow as a wizard. All magic is self-reinforcing. A person who is using fire becomes more convinced that using fire is good and thus becomes better at using fire - that's mind twisting by supernatural forces. The twisting done by Law breaking is just considered detrimental. The hypothetical splendor would stop that. It would also stop effects of Law breaking.

Poisoning yourself is still external, you do not choose to become the poison, you have to put something into your body. By contrast black magic is at its most fundamental level personal growth, you choose to grow into a Black Magician by practicing black magic. It is mechanically something you buy with XP.
 
Not as good. As dangerous. In different ways than exalted, but equally dangerous to the world.
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How do you consider warlocks to be as equally dangerous to the world as Exalted when on day fucking ONE Molly had the option of asking questions about the White God and or his Angel's future plans and weaknesses then selling them off to Satan?

Make it make sense.
 
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How do you consider warlocks to be as equally dangerous to the world as Exalted when on day fucking ONE Molly had the option of asking questions about the White God and or his Angel's future plans and weaknesses then selling them off to Satan?

Make it make sense.
In a different way, on strategic scale. Wizards get to summon demons natively. We don't actually know how hard summoning outsiders is. Wizards get to pool their magic together and participate in a joint rituals.

And the crown of eyes is far more dangerous than other crowns or, really, most of what others get from day one.

Molly and exalts are locally far more dangerous from day one. Wizards are equally as problematic and dangerous on an institutional level.

Edit: one wizard existing is likely less dangerous as one exalted, especially a celestial one, from day one. Wizards as a phenomenon are as dangerous, though.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Nov 30, 2023 at 4:57 AM, finished with 122 posts and 28 votes.
 
Arc 11 Post 13: Name of the Game
Name of the Game

4th of January 2007 A.D.

There's a part of you, and not the part that is a self-admitted demon, that really hates what you are about to say, forcing the words to come out in a human tongue for a very human exchange: "I'm game if you are but I think we should read what's on the table before we draw another wildcard. My power seems to be made of nothing but that as you... hopefully know. God, this is annoying."

It is that frustration, that sincerity you suspect that resonates with the young girl across the table more than any number of coldly rational arguments could have. After all who better to asses by the cold light of reason than her. "[Agreement, reluctant/binding unity of purpose, until greater enlightenment is found. Resumption of previous point. Not lightly can the Formless walk among us. Pass they must though the Shinma Nirakara, upon their shoulders set a cloak of lying grace ]"

"[Cannot they spin it by their own power?]"
you ask reflexively, that feels like a thing the raksha should be able to do..

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 8/15 (Occult Excellency)

A look of horror passes over her face, not at the words themselves, but at some memory rising from among the Seer's ancestral chorus. "[No, that power was cut from them with the termination-scythe. When bound-not-bound mortals call they clothe, but choose they must among those graces that are dreamed of many. Contrast Sworn-Court Essence, akin, alike, near-enough maybe? Theory Reason for Enemy seeking the faerie-pupae Katherine not just new masks, new category of masks. Flaw: Such gossamer graces would be of limited utility, maybe Katherine, maybe her brother? No observable reason for cult-like behavior, involving others. Test?]"

"[Insight attributed to Wise-Fool Aristotle...]"
Lash makes a face and discards the attempt to speak Enochian. "Aristotle claimed man is a political animal long before modern anthropology reached those same insights with scientific fervor, both were very much correct. To whit some people are more dependent on their fellows than others. It is entirely possible that the cult-like facade is for Katherine herself to reach the state of tapping into fae magic and faith in her new patrons at the same time thus starting of forge them a new masks. The psychological is magical, but it does not have to be directly so."

"[Clarify, required for optimal death-dealing]," Kincaid says, so utterly deadpan there almost has to be a hint of humor in it, black as tar.

"Everyone at that party may have been a backup dancer for the changeling girl," Tiffany says with a roll of bright emerald eyes. "You know the plain-speaking soldier for fortune act isn't going to work on any of us."

The bodyguard shrugs as if to say 'that's your problem them isn't it?'

"[Death is not needed, an end to the enemy's lies only.]" your father, or more properly Michael Carpenter Knight of the Cross, interjects firmly.

"[Complications/Risks of potential lingering Enemy-influence. What is the weight of one soul against multitudes uncounted?]" The Archive had never sounded less like a child, her gaze hardening like the ice she had compared her mantle with.

"[Meaningless to weigh infinity against infinity,]" your father replies, no less resolved.

Unsurprisingly Harry also falls on the same side where Lash is on the other.

And there's the risk of bringing so many together, you think leaning back in your seat. Everyone might agree on what needs to be done, cut out Nemesis influence, but not how or at what cost.

What do you suggest?

[] Side with the Archive, you have looked into the eyes of Nemesis and that thing cannot be allowed even an inch of leeway or it will slide though the cracks for create even worse horrors

[] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try

[] Argue that you should inform Titania and let her decide.

[] Write in


OOC: A bit short, but hey you now know for sure what the Outer Gates are in the context of Exalted, the Shinma of form, so at least that much has remained in place. I think some people guessed previously but since you got the Archive to speak primordial about it now you know for sure.
 
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Charity says otherwise or harry. Mortals have consistently disobeyed us.
Mortals can disobey us when we care about them. There are aspects of them we are unwilling to simply bully over. We treasure their uniqueness and overwriting their views with our own would discard that.

But, if the alternative is "I change your mind or you get dead", there is little we cannot discard.

We just need to put someone in a box and work over their willpower until they are drained (low sleep, constantly poking their willpower by forcing them to spend it resisting social fu), THEN social fu them into whatever the hell we want them to be.
 
Activate the "Kill it with nuclear hate fire!" protocols.

[X] Side with the Archive, you have looked into the eyes of Nemesis and that thing cannot be allowed even an inch of leeway or it will slide though the cracks or create even worse horrors
 
Mortals can disobey us when we care about them. There are aspects of them we are unwilling to simply bully over. We treasure their uniqueness and overwriting their views with our own would discard that.

But, if the alternative is "I change your mind or you get dead", there is little we cannot discard.
Threata have historically never changed anyones mind. Like it puts people on their guard and they can just spend willpower to deny us. Its super counterproductive.
 
Well, that's a lot of revelations, and I am back to "CCG is the most dangerous spell to exist, ever", because it doesn't have "you must be this shaped to pass" tag on it.

Also
[X] Plan yoink, mine now
-[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try
--[X] Faith can be redirected. Point out thematic and cosmetic similarities to the reality of your Court as one possible way to do so. Provide other alternatives too
--[X] a splendor can be forged relatively easily, to make her incapable of caring for or even thinking about Outside. It can be further upgraded afterwards, scaled to automatically spread the effect to the masses [outline splendors from 3 to 5 points, culminating in Holy Book of Ignorance).
---[X] If such is made, Ivy would be the owner and thus immune to the effects and directing the use. You'll need help in getting the resources for the forging of higher versions.
--[X] Occult, Empathy excellencies
 
Yes, and we run them out of willpower and that stops being effective.

And not threats. Supernaturally convincing arguments.
And to be absolutely clear here I am NOT talking torture ether. We don't need that. We literally just need time and enough discomfort and inability to recover that willpower does not come back.

We would have to spend so much time to do this, like our time is literally more valuable than that.
Deciding to kill someone out of expedience and that our time is more valuable than their soul is fair. It is likely true even.

But I am not sure it's a call I think Molly would take at this moment.

EDIT - to be clear again, the "Change your mind or you get dead" is not a threat Molly would be making. It would be the justification Molly is internally making for actually social fuing someone aggressively to the point that their free will is impinged.
 
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I mean, Cult deprogramming exists even in real life. We are a social exalt. We own this girl to at least try before condemning her, and all her possible backups, to death. And we might get an earth-based Cult out of this.
 
Threata have historically never changed anyones mind.
What an extraordinary thing to say.

Threats change people's mind every day. Threats are the bedrock of law: behave this way, or I'll punish you, says the State with overwhelming force. Every time someone changes his behavior when traveling abroad - as a trivial example, driving slower in a country with a lower speed limit - that is compliance with a threat.
 
[X] Plan yoink, mine now
-[X] Side with your father, if there is any hope of saving the changeling girl you should try
--[X] Faith can be redirected. Point out thematic and cosmetic similarities to the reality of your Court as one possible way to do so. Provide other alternatives too
--[X] a splendor can be forged relatively easily, to make her incapable of caring for or even thinking about Outside. It can be further upgraded afterwards, scaled to automatically spread the effect to the masses [outline splendors from 3 to 5 points, culminating in Holy Book of Ignorance).
---[X] If such is made, Ivy would be the owner and thus immune to the effects and directing the use. You'll need help in getting the resources for the forging of higher versions.
--[X] Occult, Empathy excellencies
 
Underlined are the errors in order of reading:

There's a part of you, and not the part that is a self-admitted demon, that really hates what you are about to say, forcing the words to come out in a human tongue for a very human exchange: "I'm game if you are but I think we should read what's on the table before we draw another wildcard. My power seems to be made of nothing but that as you... hopefully know. God, this is annoying."

that, as not that as

"[Cannot they spin it by their own power?]" you ask reflexively, that feels like a think the raksha should be able to do..

thing not think

"[Insight attributed to Wise-Fool Aristotle...]" Lash makes a face and discards the attempt to speak Enochian. "Aristotle claimed man is a political animal long before modern anthropology reached those same insights with scientific fervor, both were very much correct. To whit some people are more dependent on their fellows than others. It is entirely posibile that the cultic facade is for Katherine herself to reach the state of tapping into fae magic and faith in her new patrons at the same time thus starting of forge them a new masks. The psychological is magical, but it does not have to be directly so."

possible not posibile

to not of

a new not new

"Everyone at that party may have been a backup dancer for the changeling girl," Tiffany says with a roll of bright emerald eyes. "You know the plain-speaking soldier for fortune act isn't going to work on any of us."

The bodyguard shrugs as if to say 'that's your problem them isn't it?'

of not for, it's soldier of fortune not soldier for fortune unless this is supposed to be a quirk of Tiffany's.

then not them

"[Meaningless to weigh infinity against infinity,]" your father replies, no less resolved. Unsurprisingly Harry falls on the same side where Lash is on the other.

Harry not your father unless this became some sort of a weird incest AU while I wasn't paying attention.

We would have to spend so much time to do this, like our time is literally more valuable than that.

No it's not this is literally shoring up the walls before going trough a sally port.
 
[X] Side with the Archive, you have looked into the eyes of Nemesis and that thing cannot be allowed even an inch of leeway or it will slide though the cracks or create even worse horrors
 
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