Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Good night guys, see you tomorrow as we see how whether or not Molly is willing to treat ancient works of magic the way Alexander treated the Gordian Knot. 
Depends on what you mean here. From a certain perspective you could fit the Cold War into that category, along with h a number of social movements.
That said, I'm not suggesting changing the world by protesting on Winter's lawn.
The general idea I was going for was to help humanity stand up for itself by preparing it to do so. When and if it came to fighting it wouldn't be chaos raining down on the heads of hapless mortals as the superhumans dictate how the world is going to work.
Humans went from needing to melee vampires to sniper rifles and atomic weapons in a startling short period of time and it didn't trigger a broad response.
The supernatural powers aren't a unified force, and right now they're pretty comfortable where they are. What I'm suggesting is essentially to keep pushing things, with precise efforts to put humans in a place where the fall of the masquerade is something they can handle without imploding.
I'm not saying we need to have full control of the whole world or dictate how everyone lives, but it's difficult to deny we'd be responsible for letting the genie out of the bottle. The consequences of which would be no small thing.
I don't own any guns, but if I did and say loaned them to a friend who used them to go on a killing spree my lapse in judgment would have cost innocent people their lives. Same principle, except with super weapons designed to kill primordial titans.
Have you ever heard the saying that humility isn't thinking less of yourself, but rather thinking of yourself less? Molly's place in this is secondary and the reasons to avoid freeing them aren't related to how worthy everyone else is.
Making it about her by freeing them to avoid the appearance of hypocrisy or selfishness is valuing feeling righteous over the material well being of others.
I don't think I'm being paranoid, I think you're being dangerously reckless.
There are a lot of different failure modes here, and many of which will have serious consequences for the whole world. We have no particular reason to believe that the good outcomes are more likely than the bad ones, or that we can prepare a global effort that will make enough of a difference to avoid the worst of them.
And let's be clear here - Molly is almost certainly not going to be the one paying most dearly if this goes wrong. Power and wealth are great insulators against responsibility.
If we make that choice for everyone else it's the bystanders who'll suffer the most from the chaos.
Or are they just the cost of doing business?
The transformation of British society in terms of improving suffrage and the quality of diplomacy and governance between the Napoleonic war and the First World War should really qualify.
The UK did go to war in that period but they weren't the causes for major societal reform.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well Molly is immune to all shaping effects that Ivy might try so there is good chance we could just punk her well she wastes an action trying to do some amazing magic effect that doesn't work. It depends on what Ivy trys.
Also Molly is going to win all initiative checks. Hellhound might actually be the bigger threat. But hopefully it doesn't come to that.
Also Molly is going to win all initiative checks. Hellhound might actually be the bigger threat. But hopefully it doesn't come to that.
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] And make Archive her talisman today
People deserve free will, if this is what the archive wants then she deserves the right to choose to give us this information.
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] And make Archive her talisman today
People deserve free will, if this is what the archive wants then she deserves the right to choose to give us this information.
I don't really agree. Politically active Molly changes some things, but there are plenty of players who'd be more interested in recruiting themselves than passing people along, even among those who aren't directly opposed to us.
Then there's the other exalts themselves. There's enough bullshit available that pushing them if they don't want to move isn't a trivial task, and they'd be all over the place.
Trying to run social combat against every other exalt on the planet* while they run around doing whatever they like and everyone else scrambles to counter or acquire them doesn't sound like a highly reliable system to me.
* Many of whom could start better at social than us for a variety of reasons.
1) How detectable exalts are will likely vary with type and build. There's also the fact that they often look like something else on the surface. Molly looks like a demon or jade elder, an abyssal like a blampire and so on.
Regular casters aren't easy to detect when they're just hanging around, but it's worth noting that they're relatively noticeable when doing something major.
2) You sure you want to use this example? Cause a major plot point in the DF is exactly that the council has functionally failed to keep up with population growth.
3) There's no such thing as an untrained wizard. There are talents with the potential to become wizards, but they need a lot of work realize that potential. That's why Molly didn't give herself away by accidentally soul gazing her mother after she started practicing but before she knew what they were.
They can do some frightening stuff, but they're not going to be knocking over ghoul nests on day one or something. I'm not sure where you're going with this, because even within their limits warlocks can get nasty and the council isn't dealing with the problem very well.
4) And? The point isn't that they're weak, but it takes decades for them to get really good and even then they're not capable of breaking the rules quite as flagrantly as exalts can.
5) Nemesis is a threat, but it doesn't have the bandwidth to hunt random talents unless it's running a specific con. Clearly random mages aren't the secret key to sneaking armies passed the gate.
6) This does cause all kinds of problems, but I don't see the relevance.
7) Literal Merlin being impressive isn't a surprise, but again it takes centuries to get there and very few of them make it there.
8) And?
Wizards are powerful, but they're slow growing and already part of the ecosystem of the setting. An exalt can wake up with perfect effects and make messes in a way no minor talent can.
This whole line of argument seems disingenuous to me. You're trying to equivocate away the glaring contrast between wizards and exalts to downplay the differences you want them for.
Either exalts have the power to change things or they don't. If they have the power to make a difference then they have the ability to make it a poor one. Random talents do not and cannot do the things Molly has, especially in the time she has.
This difference is a huge part of the problem.
@BronzeTongue We constantly feel like a superpowerful Yama king walking around on the surface of the world every solar every time They're not using a perfect stealth Charm Is going to feel like the Sun God is walking the Earth. Every Abbysal Like The God of death the idea they can hide and use their powers at the same time is not true. Now if we can't find them before they get access to magical items like splendors and prodigies, Then yeah, they're in the wind.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Might have trouble keeping track of Sidereal. They are made of subtle even when they do very unsubtle things like steal natural landmarks like Big Ben or the Eiffel tower.
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@fictionfan I didn't mention them. And that is a good point. But I don't think they're really included. Because they have a fate that is the preservation in enhancement of the world in specifically supernatural ways. Making sure the proper people get to their place. Making sure that outsiders don't destroy shit You know stuff like that. "They work in mysterious ways" the Exalts.
- Location
- washington
Fairly sure merlin is above even most wizards can realistically get with several centuries of experience. We've seen zero wizards so far do comparable feats to what we've heard about from Merlin mind you its fucking merlin and plenty of senior council members have done things that would be decently impressive even for exalted with an essence rating of 5 or less. Not comparable in the totality of an essence 5 exalt but comparable or better in certain feats definitely.
I get the same impulse. I've been trying to find some way to make this applicable to the Oblivion War:
A full 5 dot could theoretically permanently erase memories with elongation of the curse in an AoE, though it would need an escape clause to be a valid build.
Even a temporary version would be excellent for disrupting her opposition.
Or something funny like:
As a fascination set to "Outsider Cults".
Sucks for the opposition when their minions retroactively become enemy sympathizers.
We stood face to face with a whampire elder and his first assumption was very old Jade. Others have assumed arch devil, but we aren't getting treated like a full Yama king. By that measure Abyssals should probably feel like old blampires, and solars some sort of serious light spirit.
I'm not saying it's impossible to notice them, but there are a lot of weird and wild things out there.
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
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CouncilOfShadows
Enlightened Schadenfreude Enthusiast
- Location
- England
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking it head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking it head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
- Location
- washington
You think our aura might become more powerful that things assume a greater grade of creature with our essence rating rising?I get the same impulse. I've been trying to find some way to make this applicable to the Oblivion War:
A full 5 dot could theoretically permanently erase memories with elongation of the curse in an AoE, though it would need an escape clause to be a valid build.
Even a temporary version would be excellent for disrupting her opposition.
Or something funny like:
As a fascination set to "Outsider Cults".
Sucks for the opposition when their minions retroactively become enemy sympathizers.
We stood face to face with a whampire elder and his first assumption was very old Jade. Others have assumed arch devil, but we aren't getting treated like a full Yama king. By that measure Abyssals should probably feel like old blampires, and solars some sort of serious light spirit.
I'm not saying it's impossible to notice them, but there are a lot of weird and wild things out there.
Oh, an idea (would you mind telling us Ivy's thought about this) - make it not as an adornment, but instead as a Fascination:
This Splendor defines that which cannot threaten those within its influence, according to the
Splendor's character as defined by appropriate Form Elements.
It provides immunity to damage from wind, cold, and electricity (air); being crushed, cut, or
pierced by stone or metal (earth); being burned (fire); being drowned (water); being poisoned or
struck by wooden objects (wood); disease (death); possession (spirit); or the twisting of the mind
by supernatural powers (dreams). If its protection is bestowed by a Fascination, it lasts for a
number of hours equal to the Splendor's rating, and may be set to persist indefinitely while
within the Splendor's influence in the case of Forms such as Form of the Hearth.
If more than one characteristic is drawn upon when this Element grants its Protection, then
instead of invincibility, damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to
bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession
and thought alteration become the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's
rating) to immediately shake the effect off, and immunity to disease becomes the ability to make
a Stamina roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's rating) to immediately shake the infection off.
Splendor's character as defined by appropriate Form Elements.
It provides immunity to damage from wind, cold, and electricity (air); being crushed, cut, or
pierced by stone or metal (earth); being burned (fire); being drowned (water); being poisoned or
struck by wooden objects (wood); disease (death); possession (spirit); or the twisting of the mind
by supernatural powers (dreams). If its protection is bestowed by a Fascination, it lasts for a
number of hours equal to the Splendor's rating, and may be set to persist indefinitely while
within the Splendor's influence in the case of Forms such as Form of the Hearth.
If more than one characteristic is drawn upon when this Element grants its Protection, then
instead of invincibility, damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to
bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession
and thought alteration become the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's
rating) to immediately shake the effect off, and immunity to disease becomes the ability to make
a Stamina roll at difficulty (10 – Splendor's rating) to immediately shake the infection off.
The idea is not to provide a direct benefit to her - she already has access to Library: everything. The idea is to dodge the blocks of the Archive. She cannot tell us what she knows, so she instead manifests a book / scroll / writing out of her collection (this is a custom variant of the splendor), and we read that, without her directly needing to tell us or anyone anything.
To be nitpicky (I am not arguing, I am ok with this judgment) - nowhere in Sacred Protection text does it say that the source of damage has to be external. For example, would a wood-aligned Sacred Protection prevent you from poisoning yourself? Would a death-aligned Sacred Protection protect you from auto-brewery syndrome?
In case of mind twisting by one's own magic, there's even a downside directly built it - while the splendor is active, if your own magic cannot twist your mind, you cannot grow as a wizard. All magic is self-reinforcing. A person who is using fire becomes more convinced that using fire is good and thus becomes better at using fire - that's mind twisting by supernatural forces. The twisting done by Law breaking is just considered detrimental. The hypothetical splendor would stop that. It would also stop effects of Law breaking.
Both Michael and Charity also have extensive experience with warlocks, and should have been able to identify the signs if there were any.
That's very speculative at best. I will give you Sidereals, probably, but definitely not bonfires of golden resplendent glory that are Solars. They should be as, or more, noticeable, as Molly is, and in a different and more exotic way (you don't usually see active divinity manifest). Same with Lunars (probably feels a lot like a naagloshii, only not corrupted), and Abyssals (might feel like Outsiders).
How many new exalts would you expect to have it? Remember - no min-maxing, in-character subconscious decisions only.
Dresden is not very observant and very ignorant in general, and we don't know about what Michael knows. And exalts are far more disruptive than a naagloshii is - that's their whole point.
Here exists the following:
1) Global transport time measured in hours, not months
2) Global surveillance networks - especially if Archive is on the side of the Hunt, and we are currently arranging to make her an ally. And she gets direct real-time access to all satellite imagery, all videocameras that record anything, even temporarily,
3) Wyldfae (and Odin's, and White Court's, and White Council's) intelligence and support networks
4) Molly's crown on eyes, and in the future multiple crowns of eyes of multiple infernals, and sidereal support.
5) Mysterious ways of White God.
I stand by what I said - a properly organized Wyld Hunt in modern society would have a much easier time than in the Age of Sorrow due to how smaller and more interconnected and faster to traverse the world is.
That's... a bold take right there. Collapse of the Soviet union involved a lot of fighting in a lot of places. Leaving aside everything else, there was an August Coup. And then you have Chechnya Wars. And arguably Aphgan war was a part of that. So, sorry, no, I don't agree.
From my perspective this is a hopelessly naive perspective that is bound to leave the situation worse than it is right now, and waste precious time and resources. Point of order: I am not saying that humanity shouldn't be strengthened, I am saying that expecting this to minimize transitional chaos is unrealistic.
Supernatural forces aren't stupid. Ravana has nukes, MIkaboshi controls Chinese stock exchange, Lara Raith can call in USA military forces.
I'll have to study that example much more in order to be able to respond, sorry.
Have I ever said that we should be opening Black Vault first? I didn't and I repeatedly mentioned that this would be a final step in a long line of preparation. Zeroth step is finding more about Dragonblooded and looking into their revival. First step would be finding another infernal exaltation shard, and releasing it. One shard. Then convincing the new infernal to our point of view. Rinse and repeat until you freed them all, and you have a society of ~50 E5 infernals. One that's stable and broadly acceptable. Then do the same with Abyssals. Then, and only then, think about Black Vault, unless you can make it so exaltations are released one by one.
Yes, as it proves my point - wizards are as dangerous as exalts, if in a different way. So, you should be arguing first about those, and then applying similar solutions to exalts.
Years, not decades, and they would be doing much more insidious and hard to detect damage in that time than a raging solar running into a White Court compound.
Holy text of ignorance - a memetic self-propagating hazard manifesting in a form of a website that makes you forget about, become unable to care for, and perfectly incurious in regards to everything connected to the Outside. And you try to spread the religious experience around and convince others to read it. And you become addicted to it, so it's your most loved text, and you regularly reread it, reinforcing the effect. It doesn't affect the Archive as she would be its owner.
Yes, we can do stuff about Oblivion War.
- Location
- washington
I doubt there will ever be fifty 5 essence exalted. Not everyone has protagonist level exp gain you might get a hand full who reach essence 5 from each set of exaltations and those will be the best of the best. Also for some this is the journey of a century or more to get there.
Ok, fair. A united brotherhood of 150 E5 exalts (50 infernals, 100 abyssals) is too much to hope for, but even a broad society in the theme of White Council of 30 or so Infernals of whom one is E4, 3 to 5 are E3 (with 1 having a Kingdom charm unlocked), and the rest are E2 would still be able to set the trends for newly released E1 exalts.
That's also another point - Odin at least is already looking. Infernals and Abyssals are theoretically accessible without breaching the Vault. Autochton might be out there, so Alchemicals (including ones leading Locust Crusade) are not off the table. Even leaving Black Vault completely intact, it's quite possible for exalts to enter the setting, and I much rather have it as allies than as opposition.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[x]Yog
Yes seems more interesting than no.
Yes seems more interesting than no.
- Location
- washington
I'm not really against eventual black vault release I just don't have nearly as much faith in a good outcome. Well only good outcomes I'm 100% sure if exaltations on mass are released into the world some of them would be like minded or even better morally speaking than us. But, I sure don't have faith in a peaceful world after. Mind there are plenty of things that could crush fresh exalts out there, would try recruiting them, or a whole bunch of other things. I expect at least a few to go warlord and cause civil wars. But, honestly I'm not totally against that makes the world more interesting for me at least lol. I hope if it ever comes to something like this we are nearly essence 6 and on our way to transforming to a primordial cause it does make us very primed to make an organization.
I wonder if we might destabilize reality at all if we're a primordial on Earth though. I mean an angel, a dragon at full mass, the mothers, and plenty of gods and shit in the nevernever can destabilize reality if they come out and play. We know reality is comparatively thinner in some capacity than it was in the age of legends though I find this comment weird since we've got crown confirmation outer space and aliens exist.
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Earth could be one of the pillars of new creation keeping it propped up without spilling Outside. Which would explain why a lot of nasties are so interested in it. At least we don't have to worry about 7 Keys like in Tales from the Crypt: Demon Knight.
It might be breadth vs. depth issue. The modern reality is larger, but thinner. There's also the issue of Three Sphere Cataclysm, and what it might have removed from Creation. And the Well of Udr and how it relates to Dresden multiverse