That just seems like way too big of an exploit to not have been ruthlessly abused during the FCF's internal wars. I'd rather take a sharp stick to battle than a weapon that may or may not explode in my face which I have no way of checking the status of.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
The FCF does not have wizards, no on the fly magic generalists, you would need to have a cadre of engineers who are also spies embedded in the enemy army.
They do have spirit wranglers though, what's a wizard doing here one of them couldn't?
This just sounds a lot like smart guns that will take software updates from anyone who connects to them being taken up as standard weapons by a major military to me. No one spent any time figuring out how to lock them up so that you need a physical totem for the spirit to listen to you or something? Or on a way to check if your gun has been modified by anyone recently when doing maintenance?
Nice to know that the white council can apparently walk through a warehouse and make our military explode, but deeply annoying that our magic proof guns are in fact even more vulnerable to magic than regular ones in an unfixable way.
Catching up:
This sounds like either a Liminal, or something from Demon The Fallen.
Maybe even a Mummy, if you regard the prosthetic soul-bits we are talking about building as a soul-body adaptor as a tem-akh.
Molly cant make an Exalt, so barring Act of God, probably not a Liminal or an Alchemical.
Something else is possible though. Even though a lot of the terminology does remind me of Alchemical themes.
Gonna need supplies for a body that impressive.
Good thing we have that set up with Monoc for minor magical materials; I suspect we're gonna need a fair bit of stuff like magical jade.
Even if we trusted the White Council implicitly, there is such a thing as a deal thats too good to be true.
If we offered them full access, they would be looking for the catch.
I certainly would.
And we dont trust the White Council implicitly. They got moles at multiple levels.
In World of Darkness, mortals create and modify the Consensus by the unconscious attitudes of multitudes.
In the Dresden Files, mortals are a bit of both.
Enough fear, enough strong emotion by a large enough number of people can make some kinds of magic easier, or weaken reality enough to make some things more plausible.
Thats why as part of his prep for the Darkhallow, Cowl performed a major working to sabotage technology in Chicago.
And also why Ethniu essentially EMP'd Chicago.
On the power scale of Gaffling > Jaggling > Incarna > Celestine that World of Darkness rates its spirit entities on, angels are an off-the scale OCP with restrictive rules of engagement.
I see no occasion where even the Fallen would need to tap mortal magic.
Not to mention that it would make for a reliable method for detecting Coins if the Fallen was drawing on external power.
Instead, we see Dresden not notice the Coin Cassius was carrying when he was impersonating Father Vincent, or the Coin that Thomas picked up until Thomas gave it to him, or the one Hannah Ascher was carrying, or the one the Genoskwa was carrying.
Hell, Mab didnt notice that Marcone was a Denarian until Dresden told her he saw the transformation.
Its not only unfaithful to the lore, it breaks too many things mechanically and narratively.
The Denarians would preferentially headhunt magic-users or believers as candidates if this was a thing; that explicitly isnt one of their criteria, as demonstrated in the bulk of their human partners being mortals like Sanya and Rasmussen.
Furthermore, those tongueless servants are Nick's tongueless servants. Noone else we see appears to command them.
When we see Polonessa Lartessa call on minions in Skin Game, she used trained ghouls as her muscle IIRC. This was post-Small Favor, and she and Nicky are at odds. Again.
Denarians get not just knowledge, but power from their Fallen, not the other way around.
They just have to actually grow into the power that the Fallen give them; any Fallen that deliberately overpowers its human partner and takes over directly running shit effectively cripples its own ability to deploy power into the world. Nicky is powerful enough to fuck with angelic messengers apparently. I quote:
That does not jell with a picture where they need power from mortals.
When they attacked the Archive at the aquarium in Small Favor, the greater circle there did not depower the Denarians in demonform, even though it cut off the Archive and Dresden from any magic they werent carrying in them. When they put the Archive in a containment circle on Demonreach, some of the power came from leylines on the island, but much of it was from Lucy himself putting his mojo into the ritual circle.
When Ethniu came out to play in PT/BG?
It was explicitly stated that only Divine or Infernal power would punch through the Titanic Bronze armor that she was rocking, making it clear that Denarian power is Different.
Something reinforced by Thorned Namshiel-in-Marcone maintaining enough magic power to keep Ethniu the victor of a fight with Odin, Titania and the Erlking engaged in a magic duel, despite Marcone having no magical talent we are aware of.
PS
For Knights, Denarians have a smell when they are not being subtle
Once again, Mentor 5 remains the best 5 dot Background we have ever bought.
COMMENTARY
This sounds like either a Liminal, or something from Demon The Fallen.
Maybe even a Mummy, if you regard the prosthetic soul-bits we are talking about building as a soul-body adaptor as a tem-akh.
Molly cant make an Exalt, so barring Act of God, probably not a Liminal or an Alchemical.
Something else is possible though. Even though a lot of the terminology does remind me of Alchemical themes.
Gonna need supplies for a body that impressive.
Good thing we have that set up with Monoc for minor magical materials; I suspect we're gonna need a fair bit of stuff like magical jade.
Even if we trusted the White Council implicitly, there is such a thing as a deal thats too good to be true.
If we offered them full access, they would be looking for the catch.
I certainly would.
And we dont trust the White Council implicitly. They got moles at multiple levels.
In Exalted and ExWoD, mortal souls are prayer generators that create Essence by praying, or taking particular ritualized actions.
In World of Darkness, mortals create and modify the Consensus by the unconscious attitudes of multitudes.
In the Dresden Files, mortals are a bit of both.
Enough fear, enough strong emotion by a large enough number of people can make some kinds of magic easier, or weaken reality enough to make some things more plausible.
Thats why as part of his prep for the Darkhallow, Cowl performed a major working to sabotage technology in Chicago.
And also why Ethniu essentially EMP'd Chicago.
These are a bunch of claims with, as far as I know, no basis in canon or the RPG.
Angels can pop stars and solar systems, while Archangels can erase galaxies.
On the power scale of Gaffling > Jaggling > Incarna > Celestine that World of Darkness rates its spirit entities on, angels are an off-the scale OCP with restrictive rules of engagement.
I see no occasion where even the Fallen would need to tap mortal magic.
Not to mention that it would make for a reliable method for detecting Coins if the Fallen was drawing on external power.
Instead, we see Dresden not notice the Coin Cassius was carrying when he was impersonating Father Vincent, or the Coin that Thomas picked up until Thomas gave it to him, or the one Hannah Ascher was carrying, or the one the Genoskwa was carrying.
Hell, Mab didnt notice that Marcone was a Denarian until Dresden told her he saw the transformation.
But that is not how the Fallen work.
That doesnt work.
Its not only unfaithful to the lore, it breaks too many things mechanically and narratively.
The Denarians would preferentially headhunt magic-users or believers as candidates if this was a thing; that explicitly isnt one of their criteria, as demonstrated in the bulk of their human partners being mortals like Sanya and Rasmussen.
Furthermore, those tongueless servants are Nick's tongueless servants. Noone else we see appears to command them.
When we see Polonessa Lartessa call on minions in Skin Game, she used trained ghouls as her muscle IIRC. This was post-Small Favor, and she and Nicky are at odds. Again.
Denarians get not just knowledge, but power from their Fallen, not the other way around.
They just have to actually grow into the power that the Fallen give them; any Fallen that deliberately overpowers its human partner and takes over directly running shit effectively cripples its own ability to deploy power into the world. Nicky is powerful enough to fuck with angelic messengers apparently. I quote:
When Dresden finally started communicating with Lash and unconsciously accepted her aid in Dead Beat, she gave Dresden access to Hellfire from her clone-mother, which was way more destructive power than he customarily threw around.
That does not jell with a picture where they need power from mortals.
When they attacked the Archive at the aquarium in Small Favor, the greater circle there did not depower the Denarians in demonform, even though it cut off the Archive and Dresden from any magic they werent carrying in them. When they put the Archive in a containment circle on Demonreach, some of the power came from leylines on the island, but much of it was from Lucy himself putting his mojo into the ritual circle.
When Ethniu came out to play in PT/BG?
It was explicitly stated that only Divine or Infernal power would punch through the Titanic Bronze armor that she was rocking, making it clear that Denarian power is Different.
Something reinforced by Thorned Namshiel-in-Marcone maintaining enough magic power to keep Ethniu the victor of a fight with Odin, Titania and the Erlking engaged in a magic duel, despite Marcone having no magical talent we are aware of.
PS
For Knights, Denarians have a smell when they are not being subtle
I cant imagine what it would have been like if Michael hadnt had Uriel vouch for us and had to deal with Molly's signature.Death Masks c31 said:
Once again, Mentor 5 remains the best 5 dot Background we have ever bought.
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Perhaps faith in this case could be taken as the tangible aspect of free will, of permission to act in the mortal world. We are dealing with the mechanistic aspects of a system where intangibles are very reactive and energetic substances. Maybe they need a little bit of mortal faith specifically attuned to their current purpose to alloy their power to in order to act beyond the coin.
Which would slot in nearly with the rule about partners versus slaves. A mortal that's been dominated has their soul distorted in a way that cuts off the tap on faith/willpower.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
@DragonParadox, are the spirits inhabiting the weapons sophisticated enough to log who last interacted with them?
They do have spirit wranglers, but that is not a skill you can practice on the fly, normally to give those guns software update you need tools and codes, wizards are alien multidisciplinary savants.
This is not unfix-able, but it is an OoCP, the first one you have encountered from this side.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[X]Afterthought to Harry Dresden: Does the council know I dealt with Arianna yet?
I was going to do an IC post about this, but given that there are OOC concerns best to handle it now:
There are three levels to this:
- (Fallen) Angel using angel powers, think Anduriel's shadow wings, generally they should not be able to do that at all, but there is a way around that drawing on the faith of their hosts or their other servants. They do not need a lot of faith because what they can do as angels is quite limited. If one of them is being conservative they can just draw on their hosts. These are actions they take though their hosts directly and are quite noticeable
- Fallen telling their hosts how to magic better, they can do that freely, just have to be careful not to melt their brains
- Fallen sponsoring their hosts, this is being a black magic drug dealer, it does not give them angelic power, but it does give them things like hellfire, it makes them magic users. Crucially the mortal is still in charge here, though the Fallen can turn off the tap
COMMENTARY
I think I agree with @BronzeTongue about something being profoundly fucky with their ability to sabotage weapons by the crateful and noone noticing
If wizards with as little specialized experience as Harry can do it (remember, at 31-32 he is historically young for a wizard), you can be pretty sure that other wielders of magic can potentially do worse, faster. Be prepared for someone like Thorned Namshiel, or Imariel/Lartessa, or an old akuma, or someone mainlining Outsider-juice, to disable weapons en masse on the battlefield.
At which point its frankly worse than most conventional firearms, as well as more expensive.
Conventional weapons just stop working when whammied, they dont explode.
Then you have to worry about any cyberware implants in people as well.
VOTE
[] Summon and bind spirits yourself to provide to the council from the Wicked City, there is no doubt in your mind they will take the change in circumstances with joy (Costs 2 AP Next month)
Molly has 6+2AP next turn; she can use 1+1AP to do this, and it leaves her with 5+1 AP
I have ethical issues with deploying sapients this way, but it seems to be the least bad option on offer if we actually want to do this and make an impact doing it.
I'd have to think on this, but my immediate impulse is to disagree.
Denarian and Hellish access to Earth is apparently primarily based on a series of agreements with Heaven, not on what they are able to con out of mortals. Free will with their partners, yes; the free will of people who arent their partners doesnt seem to come into the equation here.
If the Denarians could increase effective bandwith for every mortal they had suborned, you'd expect that their operating MO would be very different, with a lot more evangelising cults globally to feed them victims and less operating in shadows.
The Moonies are around 2-3 million worldwide by their own accounts; the Scientologists are between 20-50k. And developing countries from Nigeria to India regularly throw up charismatic figures with followings in the five figures or greater pushing some religious ideology or the other. Add some actual magic/"miracles" into the mix and well...
India in particular used to export some of these people to the West; see the whole Osho thing for one example
Rajneeshpuram - Wikipedia
Was it ever explained why Anduriel was willing or able to turn John Marcone into an extremely powerful wizard in a very short period of time but never did the same for Nicodemus despite their close alliance over centuries? Is there anything stopping Anundriel from sponsoring Nicodemus and eventually turn him into a skilled magic user through training? The benefits seem obvious and the costs minimal as Nicodemus has already fully submitted to Anduriel.
- Location
- Canada
I suspect that it is quite different for awakened machine spirits. When awakened they are basically a person and should have all the protections of free will.
Nicodemus seemed to have been a powerful ritualist, so there is that.
I think the real answer is that the last few books have all the quality of shitty fanfics and just do things sometimes.
We already know the awakened ones are harder to effect from the chapter. That said, free will is a human/mortal only thing. Spirits don't really have it, even if some look freer than others.
My asnwer for the purposes of this quest since we are running an Exalted cross and the other side should have a worthy showing is 'who says old Nic isn't a very powerful magic user while also not specking into flashy magic'
Because it's a direct downgrade making them more susceptible to magic than any modern gun. An enemy sabotaging your guns is one thing, but there isn't a good way to do that to modern weapons that can't be noticed if the user takes the thing apart for routine maintenance. Certainly not at speed by one person across a substantial armory.
Being able to rig them to explode on detecting a particular type of enemy in a way the user can't notice this way is a critical weakness which will see them rejected on an organizational level from everyone who knows about it. Any dreams of arms exports we had just crashed and burned.
DP implied that we could research a way to fix this, but I'm not sure how we're supposed to even start that. It sounds like the guns already have all the anti-tampering devices you'd expect and wizards are just ignoring them anyway.
1) Anduriel shadow wings is just Nicky using a demonbody Aspect.
Where almost every other Denarian we've seen appears to invest in a demonform and upgrades for it, Nicky bought a couple Rage Reborn Aspects and put his XP points into other things like his epic gear. The Shadow itself being an autonomous defense/extra actions seems to be much the same thing. Namshiel-Marcone appear to be doing much the same thing as of Battlegrounds.
2) Sanya didnt believe in Magog, and he was partnered with him for five years between the ages of 16 and 21.
And Quintus Cassius certainly didnt behave like someone in some ideological crisis when he gave up his Coin.
I have trouble buying faith as a component of anything here.
3)So where does Namshiel/Marcone doing tactical teleports while duelling Ethniu fall into this?
Marcone was not a magic user previously.
Had no talent for it AFAIK.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] Summon and bind spirits yourself to provide to the council from the Wicked City, there is no doubt in your mind they will take the change in circumstances with joy (Costs 2 AP Next month)
I don't want to and really hope that we won't have to keep doing it once our people do some R&D but it seems needed.
I don't want to and really hope that we won't have to keep doing it once our people do some R&D but it seems needed.
Free will as we understand it appears to be a mortal human privilege in the Dresdenverse, to make up for a lot of the other things they lack compared to the rest of the inhabitants of the universe.
Spirits have volition, but can be coerced into doing shit they'd rather not do.
For example? Bob is a sapient person; he still has to obey whoever has his skull.
When Kumori stole him in Dead Beat, he obeyed Cowl. When Butters had him post-Changes, his loyalties were to Butters.
- That could be modeled that way, but I was going to have it be part of the same ability his ability to spy, shadows are a theme with him
- Magog is a brute, he would not try to finesse anything, just enhance the body, shackle the mind as best he can and go to town
- The same place as the Summer Knight, a lot of sponsored magic. Keep in mind there is no such thing as a nul magic user in this setting, just people who have too little to use without a little extra help
I can easily think of ways to delayed sabotage with free magic users
The way you would get through the issue of wizards messing with your spirit bindings is;
- Get a wizard to demonstrate
- Engineseers try to do their thing and adapt the code, Molly can choose to help with her own skills and AP or she can leave them at it. No one knows how hard or how easy it will be since this is an out of context problem
1) Whatever works for you.
The shadow is just theming and fluff, and the ability to spy could be represented by either of the following Investments
Artful Clockwork Prince Treatment (4 points)
The Yama King Mikaboshi boasts that he invented this treatment. While he is certainly its most frequent user, it also sees some use among more forward-looking Earthbound, and certain of the more industrially-inclined Maeljin Incarnae. It "improves" the Anathema with the heavy inclusion of advanced cybernetics,from electronic ganglia to weaponized bionic limbs.
Grants:
• Five points to distribute between Strength, Dexterity, and Wits.
• Eight points to distribute between Computer, Finance, Leadership, and Technology.
• The ability to reflexively see through any cameras within 300 yards.
• One additional Shintai Aspect as per the Investment Touch of the Dread Kings (concealable) or twonon-concealable Aspects. In either case, these take theform of cybernetic implants.
The Yama King Mikaboshi boasts that he invented this treatment. While he is certainly its most frequent user, it also sees some use among more forward-looking Earthbound, and certain of the more industrially-inclined Maeljin Incarnae. It "improves" the Anathema with the heavy inclusion of advanced cybernetics,from electronic ganglia to weaponized bionic limbs.
Grants:
• Five points to distribute between Strength, Dexterity, and Wits.
• Eight points to distribute between Computer, Finance, Leadership, and Technology.
• The ability to reflexively see through any cameras within 300 yards.
• One additional Shintai Aspect as per the Investment Touch of the Dread Kings (concealable) or twonon-concealable Aspects. In either case, these take theform of cybernetic implants.
Black Whispers (10 points)
This is not a true Investment per se, but rather represents the Exalt bartering with the forces of Hell for information. The lords of the dread realms have a multitude of wicked spirits, spies, and intelligence agents at their disposal, and are quite knowledgeable about many things. Each purchase of this Investment provides knowledge of one subject, such as the dreadful sins of a hated rival, the location of a forgotten artifact (along with advice on how to reach it and what sort of traps guard it), or a particular truth about the Age of Legends. Not all dark powers are guaranteed to know everything, but do keep in mind the character is bartering her soul for this knowledge.
Sign: None.
Side Effect: None.
This is not a true Investment per se, but rather represents the Exalt bartering with the forces of Hell for information. The lords of the dread realms have a multitude of wicked spirits, spies, and intelligence agents at their disposal, and are quite knowledgeable about many things. Each purchase of this Investment provides knowledge of one subject, such as the dreadful sins of a hated rival, the location of a forgotten artifact (along with advice on how to reach it and what sort of traps guard it), or a particular truth about the Age of Legends. Not all dark powers are guaranteed to know everything, but do keep in mind the character is bartering her soul for this knowledge.
Sign: None.
Side Effect: None.
2) Nah, I dont agree.
If having a believing host meant more power, Magog would use that self-same power to stack more physical buffs.
Its not like having a believing host is incompatible with being a malicious brute.
I mean, remember:
Polonessa Lartessa and her right hand woman Rosanna chose Sanya for Magog.
If choosing believers, or fostering them, made for more powerful candidates, that would be the play.
And we have information from Sanya and Michael that while the two factions of Denarians operate differently, neither of their criteria has ever considered belief to be a factor. Nicodemus favors competence in his candidates, and will happily threaten or coerce them into picking up a Coin. Lartessa prefers vulnerability and desperation and raw desire, with actual talents being secondary.
I laid all the cards down. See above regarding the general futility of lying to Knights of the Cross-and besides, they'd both more than earned my trust. It didn't take me very long.
"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."
Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"
"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."
"You are sure?" Sanya asked, frowning thoughtfully.
"Yeah," I said. "I think that's why they wanted to grab Hendricks and Gard instead of killing them. So they could force him to take the coin or they'd kill his people."
Michael grunted. "It's a frequently used tactic."
"Not for Tessa," Sanya said, his voice absolutely certain. "She prefers to find those already well motivated to accept a coin. She regards their potential talents as a secondary factor to raw desire."
Michael acceded the point with a nod. "Which would mean that Tessa isn't giving the orders."
Sanya showed his teeth in a sudden, fierce grin. "Nicodemus is here."
"Fu-" I started to swear, but I glanced at Michael and changed it to, "Fudgesicles. Nicodemus nearly killed us all last time he was in town. And he did kill Shiro."
Both of the Knights nodded. Michael bowed his head and murmured a brief prayer.
"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."
"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."
Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."
"Nicodemus doesn't want to be rescued," I said. "He's in full collaboration with his demon."
"Which changes nothing about our duty," he said. "Anyone, even Nicodemus, can seek redemption, no matter what they've done, as long as they have breath enough to ask forgiveness."
"I don't suppose a pair of sucking chest wounds could get us around that?" I asked him. "Because if they would, I'd be tickled to provide them."
Sanya let out a bark of laughter.
Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."
"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts-and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"
Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."
Sanya frowned for a moment, glancing at me. But then he settled back in his chair, a silent statement of support for Michael.
"You want to talk to them?" I asked Michael. "You've got to be kidding me."
"I didn't say that," Michael replied. "But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It's a solution, Harry. But it isn't good enough."
I settled back in my chair and rubbed at my head with one hand. An ache was forming there. "Okay," I said quietly, trying to make up a plan as I went along. "What if…I set up a talk? Could you be lurking nearby for backup?"
Michael sighed. "There's a measure of sophistry in that. You know they'll try to betray you if it seems to be to their advantage."
"Yeah. And it'll be their choice to do it. That's what you're looking for, isn't it? Some way to deal with the problem while still giving them a choice about what to do? Preferably in some manner that will get as few good guys killed as possible?"
He looked pained, but Michael nodded.
"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."
Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"
"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."
"You are sure?" Sanya asked, frowning thoughtfully.
"Yeah," I said. "I think that's why they wanted to grab Hendricks and Gard instead of killing them. So they could force him to take the coin or they'd kill his people."
Michael grunted. "It's a frequently used tactic."
"Not for Tessa," Sanya said, his voice absolutely certain. "She prefers to find those already well motivated to accept a coin. She regards their potential talents as a secondary factor to raw desire."
Michael acceded the point with a nod. "Which would mean that Tessa isn't giving the orders."
Sanya showed his teeth in a sudden, fierce grin. "Nicodemus is here."
"Fu-" I started to swear, but I glanced at Michael and changed it to, "Fudgesicles. Nicodemus nearly killed us all last time he was in town. And he did kill Shiro."
Both of the Knights nodded. Michael bowed his head and murmured a brief prayer.
"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."
"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."
Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."
"Nicodemus doesn't want to be rescued," I said. "He's in full collaboration with his demon."
"Which changes nothing about our duty," he said. "Anyone, even Nicodemus, can seek redemption, no matter what they've done, as long as they have breath enough to ask forgiveness."
"I don't suppose a pair of sucking chest wounds could get us around that?" I asked him. "Because if they would, I'd be tickled to provide them."
Sanya let out a bark of laughter.
Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."
"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts-and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"
Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."
Sanya frowned for a moment, glancing at me. But then he settled back in his chair, a silent statement of support for Michael.
"You want to talk to them?" I asked Michael. "You've got to be kidding me."
"I didn't say that," Michael replied. "But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It's a solution, Harry. But it isn't good enough."
I settled back in my chair and rubbed at my head with one hand. An ache was forming there. "Okay," I said quietly, trying to make up a plan as I went along. "What if…I set up a talk? Could you be lurking nearby for backup?"
Michael sighed. "There's a measure of sophistry in that. You know they'll try to betray you if it seems to be to their advantage."
"Yeah. And it'll be their choice to do it. That's what you're looking for, isn't it? Some way to deal with the problem while still giving them a choice about what to do? Preferably in some manner that will get as few good guys killed as possible?"
He looked pained, but Michael nodded.
Michael grunted. "I already got in touch with Father Forthill. He sent over a report on who we think might be in town with Tessa."
I spent a couple of seconds feeling like an argumentative jerk. "Oh," I said. "Thank you. That…that could help a lot."
Michael shrugged. "We've learned to be wary of even our own intelligence. The Fallen are masters of deception, Harry. Sometimes it takes us centuries to catch one of them lying."
"I know," I said. "But you must have something solid."
"A little," he said. "We are fairly certain that Tessa and Imariel are the second-eldest of the Denarians. Only Nicodemus and Anduriel have been operating longer."
I grunted. "Are Tessa and Nicodemus rivals?"
"Generally," Michael replied. "Though I suppose it bears mentioning that they're also husband and wife."
"Match made in Hell, eh?"
"Not that it seems to mean much to either of them. They very rarely work together, and when they do it's never good. The last time they did so, according to the Church's records, was just before the Black Plague came to Europe."
"Plagues? The Nickelheads did that last time they were in town." I shook my head. "You'd expect a different tune or two in a husband-and-wife act that had been running that long."
"Variety is the key to a happy marriage," Michael agreed solemnly. His mouth quivered. "Nickelheads?"
"I decided their name gave them too much dignity, given what they are. I'm correcting that."
"Those who underestimate them generally don't survive it," Michael said. "Be careful."
"You know me."
"Yes," he said. "Where were we?"
"Plagues."
"Ah, yes. The Nickelheads have used plagues to instigate the most havoc and confusion in the past."
I fought off a smile that threatened my hard-ass exterior as Michael continued.
"It's proven a successful tactic on more than one occasion. Once a plague has gained momentum, there's almost no limit to the lives they can claim and the suffering they can inflict."
I frowned and folded my arms. "Sanya said that Tessa preferred choosing eager…subjects, I suppose, over talented ones."
Michael nodded. "The Fallen who follow Imariel go through bearers very quickly. None of them are kind to those they bond with, but Imariel's crew are the monsters among the monsters. Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
I grunted. "Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos."
"Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time."
"She's focused on short-term," I said, getting it. "He's all about the long view."
"Exactly," Michael said. "When he threw Lasciel's coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture."
"Calculated to rope me in," I said.
"You," Michael said, "or my son."
A chill that had nothing to do with the air went through me. "Give the coin to a child?"
"A child who couldn't defend himself. Who could be raised with the voice of a Fallen angel whispering in his ear. Shaping him. Preparing him to be used as a weapon against his own family. Imagine it."
I stared around the yard that had been the scene of so much merriment only a few hours before. "I'd rather not," I said.
Michael continued quietly. "In general, the families of the bearers of the Swords are sheltered against such evils. But things like that have happened before. And Nicodemus has borne a coin for a score of centuries. He has no difficulty with the notion of waiting ten or fifteen or twenty years to attain his goals."
"That's why you think he's here," I said. "Because going after someone like Marcone isn't Tessa's style."
"It isn't," Michael said. "But I believe that if by helping it happen she could create the kind of environment she loves best, full of chaos and despair, it would be reason enough for her to join forces with her husband."
"How many?"
"Tessa keeps a group of five other Fallen around her." He gave me a quick smile. "Sorry. Four, now."
"Thank Thomas," I said. "Not me."
"I intend to," Michael said. "Nicodemus…" Michael shook his head. "I believe you've been told before that Nicodemus makes it a point to destroy any records the Church manages to build concerning him. That's not going to be as easy to arrange in the future-"
"Hail the information age," I interjected.
"-but our accounts regarding him are sketchy. We thought he had only three regular companions-but then he produced Lasciel's coin, which had supposedly been in secure storage in a Chilean monastery. I think it would be dangerous to assume anything at this point."
"Worst-case scenario," I said, "how many other coins might he have with him?"
Michael shrugged. "Six, perhaps? But it's just a guess."
I stared at him. "You're saying that they could have a dozen walking nightmares with them this time."
He nodded.
"Last time they came to party, all three Swords were here. There were four Denarians. And we barely came out of it alive."
"I know."
"But you're used to this, right?" I asked him. "The Knights take on odds like this all the time."
He gave me an apologetic glance. "We like to outnumber them two to one if possible. Three to one when we can arrange it."
"But Shiro said he had fought several duels against them," I said. "One-on-one."
"Shiro had a gift," Michael said. "It was as simple as that. Shiro knew swordplay like Mozart knew music. I'm not like him. I'm not afraid of facing a single Denarian alone, but I would generally consider us evenly matched. My fate would be in God's hands."
"Super," I sighed.
"Faith, Harry," Michael said. "He will not abandon us. There will be a way for good to overcome."
"Good overcame last time," I said quietly. "More or less. But that didn't stop them from killing Shiro."
"Our lives belong to the Almighty," Michael said evenly. "We serve and live for the sake of others. Not for our own."
"Yeah," I said. "I'm sure that will comfort your kids when they have to grow up without a father."
Michael abruptly turned to face me squarely, and his right hand closed into a fist. "Stop talking," he said in a low, hard tone. "Right now."
So help me God, I almost took a swing at him out of sheer frustration. But sanity grabbed the scruff of my neck and turned me around. I stalked several paces away through the snow and stood with my back to him.
Sanity invited shame over for tea and biscuits. Dammit. I was supposed to be a wizard. Connected with my inner light, master of the disciplined mind, all of that kind of crap. But instead I was shooting my mouth off at a man who didn't deserve it because…
Because I was scared. Really, really scared. I always started shooting my mouth off when something scared me. It had been an asset before, but it sure as hell wasn't right now. When something scared me I almost always embraced my anger as a weapon against it. That, too, was usually an asset. But this time I'd let that fear and anger shape my thinking, and as a result I'd torn into my friend in the most tender spot he had, at a time when he could probably have used my support.
I spent a couple of seconds feeling like an argumentative jerk. "Oh," I said. "Thank you. That…that could help a lot."
Michael shrugged. "We've learned to be wary of even our own intelligence. The Fallen are masters of deception, Harry. Sometimes it takes us centuries to catch one of them lying."
"I know," I said. "But you must have something solid."
"A little," he said. "We are fairly certain that Tessa and Imariel are the second-eldest of the Denarians. Only Nicodemus and Anduriel have been operating longer."
I grunted. "Are Tessa and Nicodemus rivals?"
"Generally," Michael replied. "Though I suppose it bears mentioning that they're also husband and wife."
"Match made in Hell, eh?"
"Not that it seems to mean much to either of them. They very rarely work together, and when they do it's never good. The last time they did so, according to the Church's records, was just before the Black Plague came to Europe."
"Plagues? The Nickelheads did that last time they were in town." I shook my head. "You'd expect a different tune or two in a husband-and-wife act that had been running that long."
"Variety is the key to a happy marriage," Michael agreed solemnly. His mouth quivered. "Nickelheads?"
"I decided their name gave them too much dignity, given what they are. I'm correcting that."
"Those who underestimate them generally don't survive it," Michael said. "Be careful."
"You know me."
"Yes," he said. "Where were we?"
"Plagues."
"Ah, yes. The Nickelheads have used plagues to instigate the most havoc and confusion in the past."
I fought off a smile that threatened my hard-ass exterior as Michael continued.
"It's proven a successful tactic on more than one occasion. Once a plague has gained momentum, there's almost no limit to the lives they can claim and the suffering they can inflict."
I frowned and folded my arms. "Sanya said that Tessa preferred choosing eager…subjects, I suppose, over talented ones."
Michael nodded. "The Fallen who follow Imariel go through bearers very quickly. None of them are kind to those they bond with, but Imariel's crew are the monsters among the monsters. Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
I grunted. "Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos."
"Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time."
"She's focused on short-term," I said, getting it. "He's all about the long view."
"Exactly," Michael said. "When he threw Lasciel's coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture."
"Calculated to rope me in," I said.
"You," Michael said, "or my son."
A chill that had nothing to do with the air went through me. "Give the coin to a child?"
"A child who couldn't defend himself. Who could be raised with the voice of a Fallen angel whispering in his ear. Shaping him. Preparing him to be used as a weapon against his own family. Imagine it."
I stared around the yard that had been the scene of so much merriment only a few hours before. "I'd rather not," I said.
Michael continued quietly. "In general, the families of the bearers of the Swords are sheltered against such evils. But things like that have happened before. And Nicodemus has borne a coin for a score of centuries. He has no difficulty with the notion of waiting ten or fifteen or twenty years to attain his goals."
"That's why you think he's here," I said. "Because going after someone like Marcone isn't Tessa's style."
"It isn't," Michael said. "But I believe that if by helping it happen she could create the kind of environment she loves best, full of chaos and despair, it would be reason enough for her to join forces with her husband."
"How many?"
"Tessa keeps a group of five other Fallen around her." He gave me a quick smile. "Sorry. Four, now."
"Thank Thomas," I said. "Not me."
"I intend to," Michael said. "Nicodemus…" Michael shook his head. "I believe you've been told before that Nicodemus makes it a point to destroy any records the Church manages to build concerning him. That's not going to be as easy to arrange in the future-"
"Hail the information age," I interjected.
"-but our accounts regarding him are sketchy. We thought he had only three regular companions-but then he produced Lasciel's coin, which had supposedly been in secure storage in a Chilean monastery. I think it would be dangerous to assume anything at this point."
"Worst-case scenario," I said, "how many other coins might he have with him?"
Michael shrugged. "Six, perhaps? But it's just a guess."
I stared at him. "You're saying that they could have a dozen walking nightmares with them this time."
He nodded.
"Last time they came to party, all three Swords were here. There were four Denarians. And we barely came out of it alive."
"I know."
"But you're used to this, right?" I asked him. "The Knights take on odds like this all the time."
He gave me an apologetic glance. "We like to outnumber them two to one if possible. Three to one when we can arrange it."
"But Shiro said he had fought several duels against them," I said. "One-on-one."
"Shiro had a gift," Michael said. "It was as simple as that. Shiro knew swordplay like Mozart knew music. I'm not like him. I'm not afraid of facing a single Denarian alone, but I would generally consider us evenly matched. My fate would be in God's hands."
"Super," I sighed.
"Faith, Harry," Michael said. "He will not abandon us. There will be a way for good to overcome."
"Good overcame last time," I said quietly. "More or less. But that didn't stop them from killing Shiro."
"Our lives belong to the Almighty," Michael said evenly. "We serve and live for the sake of others. Not for our own."
"Yeah," I said. "I'm sure that will comfort your kids when they have to grow up without a father."
Michael abruptly turned to face me squarely, and his right hand closed into a fist. "Stop talking," he said in a low, hard tone. "Right now."
So help me God, I almost took a swing at him out of sheer frustration. But sanity grabbed the scruff of my neck and turned me around. I stalked several paces away through the snow and stood with my back to him.
Sanity invited shame over for tea and biscuits. Dammit. I was supposed to be a wizard. Connected with my inner light, master of the disciplined mind, all of that kind of crap. But instead I was shooting my mouth off at a man who didn't deserve it because…
Because I was scared. Really, really scared. I always started shooting my mouth off when something scared me. It had been an asset before, but it sure as hell wasn't right now. When something scared me I almost always embraced my anger as a weapon against it. That, too, was usually an asset. But this time I'd let that fear and anger shape my thinking, and as a result I'd torn into my friend in the most tender spot he had, at a time when he could probably have used my support.
3)Fair enough.
- Location
- Estonia
[X] Only trade technology with a sapient machine spirit, limiting the scope of the aid to what volunters you can find for that
Because The Council has moles, we can't trust it with easily sabotaged gear, and as for the write in, us having Harry effectively play an independent arms dealer for other Wizards is just asking for a serious diplomatic misunderstanding.
It will either look like Harry is doing some good old corruption - misusing his middleman position to buy favor - or that we are trying to undermine Council's unity.
Or someone trusted will interact with someone who is not, and we have an exploding product in someone's hands.
Because The Council has moles, we can't trust it with easily sabotaged gear, and as for the write in, us having Harry effectively play an independent arms dealer for other Wizards is just asking for a serious diplomatic misunderstanding.
It will either look like Harry is doing some good old corruption - misusing his middleman position to buy favor - or that we are trying to undermine Council's unity.
Or someone trusted will interact with someone who is not, and we have an exploding product in someone's hands.
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