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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Yog said:
We were told that the maximum here is Arcana 5+. Arcana 5 are almost expected to have at least one superhuman stat - their main category of attributes starts at 2 dots, and you distribute 7 more dots, and the maximum of any attribute in that category is 7. And then you can buy 5 more dots to spend.

As I understand it, we are making a body, and Lash is the "spark of creation " that animates it. This probably translates to magical effects, not necessarily changes to the physical shell. So, I would assume full wizard gift at least.
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Primary category starts at 2, then you get 7 dots.

Evenly spread, that brings you to 4 dots in 2 Attributes and 5 dots in the third; if you minmaxed one Attribute to be 7, the rest would be no higher than 3. Buying an extra 5 dots is a choice, that locks you out of other choices. And you could still spend those 5 dots into your secondary or tertiary Attributes.

I would not assume that 7 dots is a thing at base. 5 dots yes, 7 remains to be seen.
Im guessing, given how much magic in this setting is based on knowledge and ancestry, that magic is a given.
Wizard gift remains to be seen.
Yog said:
This would be a point I would start arguing against the expenditure, honestly. Yes, Lash is very important, narrative-wise, but we kinda can use gossamer for other projects (I want that power ring, dammit). We would at least need to learn where gossamer can be found.
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This is precisely the sort of high-end consequential crafting exercise that I would argue we would need gossamer for.
Nothing previous to this has been worth the use.
And this is not a subject that she wants to make errors in, or have to figure out how to fix something after the fact.

Yog said:
I do have reservations. It's us reading Lash not daring to hope that pushes me over the edge here. Also consequences of Dresden learning that we could get her out and not told him later. This is the first time where we could get her out safely, as this is the first time we can make essence vessels. We had justification before. No such thing now.
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🤷
DragonParadox said:
If you guys really want to roll Medicine instead of Craft to make the body you can, but it is going to at the very least take longer to get the requisite amount of successes and since it is not a key roll you can botch that and explicitly a botch means that you have to start the process again

The Gossamer would make the design roll vastly easier though by its mutable nature.
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No we want to roll Craft. Or Occult.

But we have access to enough medical experts and knowledge in the Courts and via SUTRA Iris and our Cyberdevils that lack of dots in Medicine isnt really a justification for going golem construct instead of self-healing biology.
Especially at Occult 5, Craft 4 and with us being willing to drop gossamer on this.

We certainly have more excellency-boosted Occult than the Pathfinder group did while trying to reverse-engineer their magical transforming drugs.

Narrative terms?
Lash has spent all her existence in a biological body: Dresden's. Molly would be aiming for something with as much commonality with that as possible. Much easier to convince a person they're a person like other people when they're not just riding a construct.

And its a lot easier to convince a person you're being upfront when you arent the only person who can fix their body.
Especially when you are espousing free will.
Thats really up to you though.
 
So, any chance we could run the possibility of embodying Lash by Uriel just to make sure we're not breaking something that really isn't meant to be broken?

I would hate to give Lasciel a direct connection through Lash, if such a thing is possible. Even if she cannot interact with the world or Lash, the info she could learn would be significant.
 
The contents of Arc 9 post 4 excluding voting options for people's review:
18th of November 2006 A.D.

"What about the Fallen's shadows?" you blurt out, half worried that he'll be gone before you can ask any questions and half hoping your mother does not get suspicious of a certain wizard if you talk fast enough "Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?"

"Got loose?" For his part Uriel seems faintly pained at your inexact language. "If you exorcised one do you mean? As all mortal things are clay all souls share a kinship of the divine. It is that fact the Fallen use as their leverage to tempt the souls of men, the act of touching a coin burns a mark seen or unseen into flesh and it burns a facsimile of the Fallen into the mortal's consciousness. This is by necessity a simplification of the greater whole. Imagine taking one side of a polyhedron and inking it to paper, the shadow as you called it has only one purpose, to persuade the mortal to take up the coin in full so it contains those aspects of the Fallen which are social facing. They possess some knowledge of whichever domains the prospective victim would find useful, intrigueing, tempting. But at the same time they have no capacity to act directly, they must converse and bargain with the mortal each time."

"Molly what are you thinking?" your mom shoots the kind of angry whisper that still has the gift of making you flinch, but she is not about to interrupt an archangel.

What you are actually thinking is: "Pay attention Usum, see if it jolts any memories loose." The state of Harry's soul is more important than Mom having a hissy fit

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 13/15 (Occult Excellency)

All the while Uriel does not seem to notice the byplay or he has absolutely no opinion on it as he continues his lecture: "Therein lies the flaw in the flaw, the answer to your question Margret and what the Fallen have most likely not contemplated and yet which may be. Mortal minds are not empty parchment upon which blackened signets are pressed. The law of reciprocity holds, as the shadow speaks so may it be spoken to, as it tempts so may it be tempted. As for what would happen if you were to free such a shade from the mortal whom they are meant to tempt I know not what would come to pass."

For the briefest instant something like frustration passes over Uriel's features, he does not sigh or move his head if anything he gets less expressive at your incredulous reaction. "You ask of a thing which has never been and which could only be as a direct consequence of mortal free will. It cannot be foretold, nor can be be tested."

"But exorcisms aren't..." The words trail off as you realize the line of questioning is a high speed train for 'why doesn't God just pry the Fallen out of the heads of the Denarians?'

"Temptation is a direct manifestation of the principle of free will, it cannot be stymied by Heaven's actions alone faith can and does serve as a helping hand."

"Oh..." the light-bulb belatedly goes off in your head. "I can exorcise the shadow since I have both the knowledge of the proper rites and the free will to so so."

Uriel says nothing, but it is an approving kind of nothing. Just a pity your mother takes the moment of silence to ask much more loudly and pointedly: "Molly who is this about?"

What do you do?
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@DragonParadox I would like to try my hand at writing up a villain song as a stunt for this

[X][Stunt] I know that your powers of retention
Are shared with Harry Dresden
But thick as he can be, pay attention
My words are a matter of pride
It's clear from your plans and digressions
Their isn't much hope in their!
But we're talking Queens and successions
Even you can't be caught unawares
So prepare for a chance of a lifetime
Be prepared for sensational news
A shining 6th era
Is tiptoeing nearer
And where do we feature?
Just listen to teacher
I know it sounds sordid
But you'll be rewarded
When at last I am given my dues
And justice deliciously squared
Be prepared

It's great that you'll soon be connected
With a queen who'll be all-time adored
Of course, quid pro quo, you're expected
To take certain duties on board
The future is littered with prizes
And though I'm the main addressee
The point that I must emphasize is
You won't get a sniff without me
So prepare for the coup of the age
Be prepared for the murkiest scam
Meticulous planning
Tenacity spanning
Hell defying
Is simply why you'll
Be a princess undisputed
Respected, saluted
And seen for the wonder you are

Based on be prepared from the lion king.
 
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uju32 said:
And you could still spend those 5 dots into your secondary or tertiary Attributes.
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That's wrong. Superior mind, superior body, and superior poise are separate arcana features. The first purchase gives you three free dots in either mental, physical, or social attributes, and raises their cap to 6. The second gives 2 more dots, and raises the cap to 7.

She gets at least 6 arcana features. Assuming a non-combat build without exotics like telepathy, she takes self-maintenance (healing for inorganics) and unaging body. That leaves 4. She could either buy favored abilities, or 10 dots of attributes. The body also gets 15 freebie points.
 
It occurs to me that hardest failsafe to find is one that doesn't exist. If we pretend that we know exactly what we are doing Lash is going to assume that we have some sort of backup plan. She is going to look for a failsafe in her body. If she doesn't find it she will assume that it is hidden really well.

Although we should assign Lash a cyber devil parole officer.
 
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fictionfan said:
She is going to look for a failsafe in her body. If she doesn't find it she will assume that it is hidden really well.

Although we should assign Lash a cyber devil parole officer.
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All of that sounds hilarious. Still doesn't make me feel good about her knowledge of the Crown though.
 
fictionfan said:
It occurs to me that hardest failsafe to find is one that doesn't exist. If we pretend that we know exactly what we are doing Lash is going to assume that we have some sort of backup plan. She is going to look for a failsafe in her body. If she doesn't find it she will assume that it is hidden really well.

Although we should assign Lash a cyber devil parole officer.
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Lash - Cyberdevil parole officer, what is your opinion on murder?

Cyberdevil parole officer - Very rude, but at least be nice about it.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Lash - Cyberdevil parole officer, what is your opinion on murder?

Cyberdevil parole officer - Very rude, but at least be nice about it.
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I don't expect the cyberdevil to give moral guidance in general just let us know if Lash is going against Molly's interests.

Also I often get the impression that Lash doesn't need moral guidance she has whole textbooks on the subject and how to transgress all the better to tempt people with my dear.
 
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So the biggest issues with giving Lash a body are-

1: She may be able to summon the coin whenever she feels like it. She isn't mortal so I would say no but then she is Lashiel's shadow so that might not matter.

2: She knows about the Crown of Eyes and has little reason not to use that information against us, if not now then later.

The first one might not even be an issue but we would have to ask her with the Crown after setting her up in her body. If the Crown says yes do we just gamble that she won't summon? I'm willing to but we'd need some way to tell if she takes up the coin.

@DragonParadox is this something that a Knight Of The Cross would typically know on instinct because of their sword? Like if they are in the presence of a coin bearer who isn't acting obviously evil would they realize?
 
You are all overcomplicating. We should give lash the best body we can because it's hilarious and she is going to be part of spooky girl squad.

We got an evil empress, death god, and now fallen angle.
 
BoredMan said:
Wdym?
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My point is that gaining a capability doesnt mean you use it.
Learning how to shoot a gun makes it possible to engage in a shootout with the police, but it doesnt give you the desire to do so.

Is there a motive why she should be trying to kill us? To attack us?
Or that, if she was somehow hostile, she would even want to engage Molly in what she has reason to believe is Molly's preferred range of combat.

I just dont see a scenario in which Lash chooses to be a physical threat.

Even the Denarians we've seen, of all the named females, Deirdre is the only one who even hangs around in melee.
Lartessa and Rosanna are primarily ranged combatants. Lasciel!Hannah was a caster as well.
Dresden is a caster.

BoredMan said:
She can make some. It's not like she has plenty now.
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She has spent two and a half years looking out through Dresden's eyes.
They already exist even if she doesnt think of them that way.

BoredMan said:
We would only do it if we had people watching her. So we would know.
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BoredMan said:
They aren't everywhere. They should be confined to the super prisons. Lash won't be anywhere near.
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It wouldnt be a malus if we could geographically isolate the problem.

Yog said:
We have people for that. Spies. And that's assuming she's given freedom of movement.
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That kinda sabotages the purpose of "you're a person who deserves self-determination".
And Im none too assured about the ability of our people to keep the ex-Shadow of a Fallen contained if they dont want to be, or under surveillance. Especially since we dont know what else they might get.
.......
Something occurred to me here but I forgot.

Yog said:
Dresden, her main social link, is going to be moving into the Courts in two weeks time as part of the WC delegation.
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I am not sure this is true.
And if it was, he would have a job to do that isnt riding herd on Lash.
And we would want to keep the ex-Shadow away from the wizard delegation anyway.

BoredMan said:
We would have to ask frankly. If that answer ends up being yes that shuts the entire FCF argument down and lets us know to keep her the hell away from Hell.
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If Michael wasnt allowed to take Amoracchius in there by the Rules, I doubt someone else can summon a Coin in there in the first place. And if Quintus Cassius couldnt summon Sariel's Coin back to himself when it was taken away, Im fairly sanguine about the likelihood of Lash being able to summon Lasciel's Coin. Especially since she has never actually touched it before.

Just knowing about it isnt enough, else Nicodemus et al would be able to summon Coins away from captivity.
Nevermind if she has the motive to do so, for that matter.
Yog said:
That's wrong. Superior mind, superior body, and superior poise are separate arcana features. The first purchase gives you three free dots in either mental, physical, or social attributes, and raises their cap to 6. The second gives 2 more dots, and raises the cap to 7.

She gets at least 6 arcana features. Assuming a non-combat build without exotics like telepathy, she takes self-maintenance (healing for inorganics) and unaging body. That leaves 4. She could either buy favored abilities, or 10 dots of attributes. The body also gets 15 freebie points.
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Doubt we can afford to minmax one Attribute category.

You're taking Unaging(as on the tin), Rapid Healing(heal as fast as an Exalt) and Hardened Body(soak lethal and agg) at a minimum. Thats 3 of 6 Arcana features, just on basic survival. Add Reinforced Body for +3 soak if you are as paranoid as me, and you've already spent 4 features without looking at Fast or Flight or Expertise.

Freebie points are largely spoken for: 5 points on Willpower, 7 points on Merits, and you have 3 points extra.
 
fictionfan said:
Or maybe our villain song should be a variant on genie's "Never had a friend like me".
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Well, Nickleheads had them 30 coins
Nicodemus has a thousand tricks
But, Lash, you're in luck 'cause, up your sleeves
You got a brand of magic never fails
You got some power in your corner now
Some heavy ammunition in your camp
You got some punch, pizzazz, yahoo and how
See all you gotta do is say "I am Lash and I want to live"
And I'll say

Ms Lash,
What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order
Jot it down
You ain't never had a friend like me
 
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uju32 said:
I just dont see a scenario in which Lash chooses to be a physical threat
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I already explicitly said this. She would only do so as a last resort. My point was that she may have methods to try not that she would.
uju32 said:
Is there a motive why she should be trying to kill us? To attack us?
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If she sides with the Denerians then sure.
uju32 said:
Just knowing about it isnt enough, else Nicodemus et al would be able to summon Coins away from captivity.
Nevermind if she has the motive to do so, for that matter.
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Sure but Lash has an greater origin with Lashiel than simply being a Host. Lash is literally part of Lashiel's brain soul thing... whatever. Part of her was also born from Dresden's soul, and Harry can call on the coin if he wants. In canon I recall Lashiel holding a grudge with Dresden over it, there could be more of a metaphysical connection than you realize. Enough to summon.
uju32 said:
And if Quintus Cassius couldnt summon Sariel's Coin back to himself when it was taken away
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That's a point in your favor but his situation will be quite different from this if we actually give her a body.
uju32 said:
If Michael wasnt allowed to take Amoracchius in there by the Rules, I doubt someone else can summon a Coin in there in the first place
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That's probably true. We still should ask the Crown if she can summon it on Earth.
 
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Lash won't try to kill us. Even if she is still evil she has one goal, get Harry to take up the coin. She can't do it herself. He must give in and let the true fallen angel take over.

Killing us makes Harry even more deadset on rejecting the coin. She should want to stick close to us. Get us into a position Harry can be convinced he must take the coin up to save us. Talk us into more and more dangerous conflicts...

Lash - "MOLLY! STOP KILLING THE BAD GUYS AND BE A PROPER HOSTAGE DAMN IT!"

Molly - "No! Now, let's talk seducing Harry plans while I behead all these vampires! Magic swords go brrrr!"
 
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[X] Lets test that theory then

Alright, let's put our money where your mouth is.

Correction, I meant to say: Alright, let's put our money where our mouth is.
 
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BoredMan said:
I already explicitly said this. She would only do so as a last resort. My point was that she may have methods to try not that she would.
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You're missing my point.

A hostile Lash is likely to be a much bigger social and magical threat than a physical one.
The lady who presumably saw Molly go shintai to shank Kattrin, then the Will of Kakuri is not going to turn around and go "A great idea to get within sword's reach of that woman." As opposed to casting magic or manipulating someone else to do it.

Dresden himself tries to stay out of close quarters combat.
BoredMan said:
If she sides with the Denerians then sure.
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Sure. If. Now the problem is justifying why she would do so.
Im not saying she'd be an automatic ally of ours, but there is nothing for her personally in running around trying to start an apocalypse.

Furthermore, hooking up with the Denarians is very much a True Believer move.
And even Lasciel isnt a team player; I quote:
Death Masks chapter 27 said:
"He tried," I said. "I turned him down."
Forthill's eyes stayed on my face for a moment before he let out a breath. "I see. Do you remember the sigil upon it?"
I grunted in affirmation, picked up a chocolate-covered jelly, and drew the symbol in the chocolate with a forefinger.
Forthill tilted his head, frowning. "Lasciel," he murmured.
"Lasciel?" I said. It came out muffled, since I was licking chocolate off my finger.
"The Seducer," Forthill murmured. He smeared his finger over the chocolate, erasing the sigil. "Lasciel is also called the Webweaver and the Temptress," he said, between licks. "Though it seems odd that Nicodemus would want to free her. Typically, she does not follow Anduriel's lead."
"A rebel angel among rebel angels?"
"Perhaps," Forthill said. "It is something better not discussed, for now."
Susan stepped out of the little office, a wireless phone to her ear. "All right," she said to the phone, and walked past us, jerking one hand at us to tell us to follow her. Father Forthill lifted his eyebrows, and we went out to the Carpenter family's living room.
It was a fairly huge room divided into several clumps of furniture. The television was in the smallest clump, and still looked about three sizes too small. Susan marched over to it, flicked it on, and flipped through stations.
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Of the people I'd expect to go running to the Denarians by default?
Lash is pretty low on that list.
BoredMan said:
Sure but Lash has an greater origin with Lashiel than simply being a Host. Lash is literally part of Lashiel's brain soul thing... whatever. Part of her was also born from Dresden's soul, and Harry can call on the coin if he wants. In canon I recall Lashiel holding a grudge with Dresden over it, there could be more of a metaphysical connection than you realize. Enough to summon.
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Doubt it.
Bonea's family link to Lasciel didnt make it possible for her to summon Lasciel's Coin, or for Lasciel to summon her.

Lash is a partial impression of Lasciel. Even when she was in Dresden's body, she couldnt summon the Coin herself; she had to talk about teaching Dresden how to do so. She would be in a new body a further degree removed. The rules that allow a Denarian-candidate to call on a Coin shouldnt apply to someone who has never even touched one.

We see Nicodemus handling bare Coins, but it doesnt allow him to summon them.

Furthermore, by virtue of having some of Lasciel's memories, Lash knows better than most people precisely how much control you give up of your own life when you invite a Fallen into your own head.
From the inside. Doesnt make her immune to temptation, but it does give her a unique perspective.

BoredMan said:
That's a point in your favor but his situation will be quite different from this if we actually give her a body.
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Would it?
She couldnt summon the Coin when she was in Dresden's body, next to the soul/personality it had bonded to.
Why would she be more capable of it in a body that has had no contact with Lasciel's Coin?

And all this presupposes that Coin rules are the same for her as they would be for a random mortal.
I would not be surprised if, even if she was eligible to pick up a Coin at all, that she wouldnt be eligible to pick up Lasciel's Coin.

BoredMan said:
That's probably true. We still should ask the Crown if she can summon it on Earth.
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As long as it doesnt burn Lash herself as a focus, I dont really have an opinion one way or the other.
 
uju32 said:
The lady who presumably saw Molly go shintai to shank Kattrin, then the Will of Kakuri is not going to turn around and go "A great idea to get within sword's reach of that woman.
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Thats what I've been saying. I'm not sure what I said that made you assume otherwise but that is literally what I was getting at with different words. I've maintained that position for awhile you'd need only to reread my past post.

Anyway the rest of your post is convincing enough.
 
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If the Denarians got ahold of Lash they would pull her apart at the seams in order to figure out how she ticks and how they can exploit whatever loophole allows her existence. It would end horribly for her and she should know that. Hell, if Nicky and his pals show up we are going to probably have to pull the girl out of the universe just for her to not be the first thing they grab. Low hanging fruit and all.
 
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