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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
Dresdenverse magic only appears to engage with physics when it suits it.
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As far as I remember the books, this is wrong. Dresden Files magic is manipulating natural forces, like gravity or heat, or entropy, but very rarely a conceptual "this is now a solid" effect.
uju32 said:
Of course, agreed. But even mundane Crafting will run up against limits eventually.
A 30-successes kitchen knife is likely going to have limits about how much better it is than a 20-successes knife.
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As far as we have seen additional successes start adding qualitative changes. So a 30+ successes knife will probably utilize kazimir effect to create space warping effect along its edge to maintain monoatomic sharpness or something along those lines.
uju32 said:
The fact that we are here, talking about how a 1 dot splendor is supposed to be better at protecting against possession than a 5 dot Terrestrial-class charm, and matching a 5-dot Celestial charm?
Something wrong with that.
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Possibly, that's a question of balance, yes. We already had one ruling where parts of the craft system were disallowed (where I made a device to mass transform people into supersoldiers 15+ shintai aspects)
uju32 said:
2) Accepting a Coin and the offers of its Fallen is a free will choice.
Getting the Shadow of a Fallen in your head, however, is as simple as making skin contact with a Coin. The Fallen are specifically allowed to tempt you; its in the rules. Thats why Dresden went to such pains to avoid his brother even touching one by accident.
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No, that's not how it works. Dresden made a conscious choice to come in contact with the coin - that was free will, and very much in tune with how Dresden Files loosely interprets "free choice". You can't, for example, shoot a coin into someone's back at supersonic speeds to implant a shadow of a fallen into them, or place it onto someone's body when they are in a coma.
uju32 said:
Ivy spent one to three days in the custody of the Denarians, and instead of simply dropping a Coin on her, they stuck her in a Circle and tortured her to try and make her pick a Coin of her own will.
That points at protection. Heavy duty shaping protection.
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We interpret this differently. Dresden "picking up" the coin when trying to protect Michael's son is essentially the same "choice under duress" as Ivy picking up a coin to avoid further torture.
uju32 said:
2) Note that Mab is a millenia old. And Mab's reputation is infamous for her ability to keep and repay a grudge.
Their calculus had to keep in mind that there would be a reckoning.
And yet they went for it anyway. There's factors we arent seeing.


3)They aggro'd Summer the minute they started bringing Outsiders through the NeverNever.
They knew this was going to happen and did it anyway. This was at the same time as the chemical weapon WMD, and barely a couple months later they try to get their hands on an occult WMD(the shoggoth in War Cry).

They have kept escalating at every opportunity.
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Yes. It all points at them not caring about long term, if they succeed in short and middle one. Taking into account outsider involvement, I think the end game can be guessed - apocalypse and collapse of the Outer Gates.
uju32 said:
Opening them up to DPoE-equivalents in a world with Fallen and Walkers is in and of itself a signficant downside.
Our ability to lolnope that sort of thing isnt common. In my opinion.
Keep in mind that being able to perceive a Fallen is allegedly terrifying if you believe Dresden.
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I would maintain that overall it's still a net benefit. Assuming we spend three months training them (let's say AP per charm use, 6 AP total including malcoffee) - that's 190 XP. The charm allows to raise Physical Attributes, Manipulation, and Alertness, Brawl, Intimidation, Larceny, Melee, or Occult Abilities. No Ability can be raised higher than that of their Infernal instructor.

We can discard Larceny, Alertness and Brawl since we are sh*t at those. Assuming average of 2 for every attribute, that's 8+12+16=36 XP to raise an attribute to 5, so 144 XP to get Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Manipulation 5. This leaves us with 46 XP. Assuming 0 points in an ability, that's 3+2+4+6+8=23 XP. So we can raise Melee and Occult, or Intimidation and Occult to 5. So, at most 4 months to max out every available stat for this charm. After even one month you can have 70 XP, which is probably 2 attributes maxed out, or Occult + 1 attribute (dexterity or stamina for survival).

I think that's well worth it.
 
There is a limit to mundane crafting, especially with something as simple as a knife, 30 successes is overkill, though you could of course always use them to make more knives

Also I have a bit of a headache at the moment unfortunately, update might be delayed somewhat especially since it seems we are going to to talking to Lash and I want to do her justice.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 4, 2023 at 4:35 AM, finished with 112 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] With wary hope - this is both a danger and an opportunity in equal measures. Perhaps, she can be redeemed. Perhaps, you might get some useful information out of her. And you'll never forget that she's a great danger
    -[X] Talk to her
    --[X] Empathy and etiquette excellencies, ATB
    -[X] After the talk is over, and you are not in her presence, use Clippy's recording of the talk as the crown focus to learn her real motivations.
    [X] With wary hope - this is both a danger and an opportunity in equal measures. Perhaps, she can be redeemed. Perhaps, you might get some useful information out of her. And you'll never forget that she's a great danger
    -[X] Talk to her
    --[X] Empathy and etiquette excellencies
    -[X] After the talk is over, and you are not in her presence, use Clippy's recording of the talk as the crown focus to learn her real motivations.
    [X] With wary hope - this is both a danger and an opportunity in equal measures. Perhaps, she can be redeemed. Perhaps, you might get some useful information out of her. And you'll never forget that she's a great danger
    -[X] Talk to her
    --[X] Empathy and etiquette excellencies
    --[x]use the conversation as a focus to ask "What are Lash's motivation in talking to you."
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Arc 10 Post 2: Judgement Call
  • Threadmarks
    • Judgement Call ​

    29th of November 2006 A.D.

    Maybe I'm a little mad. That is the first though that comes though your mind when you fear the voice of the Fallen's shadow, because the first thing you feel, the thing that sets your heart racing is hope. Maybe you could learn something of great worth, maybe you could redeem her, but, you vow to yourself I'll never forget that a danger she is. Opening your mouth to answer you cannot help but wonder how many other damned souls said that to themselves...

    Lost 3 Essence -> Now at 12/15 (Excellency x2 and ATB)

    "Remember that thou art the judge and not the judged Majesty," Usum notes, for all the gravity of the words an edge of sly humor to the words you cannot quite place.

    "OK yeah I can hear you. I'm free to talk. What's this about?"

    "The same thing it was about last time I fear. My companion, patron... landlord," she tries the words on one by one with winsome speed as one might try on hats even absent any plans to buy one. "Harry has grown more bold through all the perils of the last few months. Had the mongrel not been as craven as he is malodorous he might have died and I with him on his investigation of their old camp and not another folly. Try to imagine for but a moment the skill for which he is least suited, come on count it a dare and you shall find that he has taken it on."

    She is trying to disarm by guard that much is clear she means for me to see, but there is something else, something has her spooked and... angry. Maybe she is still pissed at Harry for not letting her out when he visited the Fivefould Courts.

    "TV repairman? Accountant?" you ask wide eyed. "Oh I know, lawyer, cause he can't bullshit to save his life and he missed a loophole you are now using." Abruptly serious you ask. "Can we just cut the bullshit I am not liable to forget who you are even a bit, not while you are talking to me though a shard of frozen hopelessness."

    There is a long pause then... "Conspirator, the answer is conspirator. McCoy has recruited Harry as part of his Grey Council, an organization meant to resist and eventually defeat the infiltrators in the ranks of the White Council. He leapt at the chance to put himself into more danger even though his 'peers' and I use this term lightly barely gave him any crumbs of information for his fealty. It is my thought that they plan to use him as a lighting rod to draw their foes into the open, no doubt reassuring themselves that if he managed to survive this long then surely he shall continue to endure."

    "Ebeneezer McCoy cares about Harry," you point out, as sure of that fact as you are of the ground beneath your feet. Just that glimpse of them talking about the Sight would have been enough.

    She laughs, the sound decaying into indistinct buzzing as she momentarily looses her grip on the jade. "And you think humans do not use the ones they love."

    "I think people do not use the ones they trust, they work with them." After a moment to let that sink in you continue. "I am assuming you want me to do something, that I have some place in your plans...."

    "I want him to swear fealty to you, as a counterbalance to a Council on the brink of shattering, I want him to have some kind of safe harbor."

    The words, the sincerity behind them hit like a physical blow, good thing you are good at rolling with the punches. Changing neither expression nor intonation you continue:

    "So I am going to need some reason to trust you."

    The room goes quiet other than the thrum of the air conditioner, the gurgle of the pipes in the walls. So for just a little while you can think, probably not what she had intended with that entrance. Once again she is asking for something you wouldn't object to. Of course you would do your best to protect Harry but... would breaking his fealty to the White Council be an opener to other spiritual bargains? Maybe... maybe that is what the Shadow is hoping, on the other hand she also has a point, factionalization to this extent, a Grey Council opposed to a Black, both working at cross-purposes to leadership is a sign of potential fatal fractures. Is Merlin's White Council about to go the way of the old Hermetic Circle? And if so would it not be better if Harry stepped back from it instead of jumping into the fray. The thought of his facing off against He Who Walks Beside or worse in some ambush to of traitorous wizards makes your heart go cold. For all his magic he is as breakable as any other mortal man.

    "What do you want? As a show of trust?" The shadow asks, sounding strangely subdued.

    [] Lore, what do you know really about what I am and where the Exaltation comes from

    [] Intelligence, what does she know about the Denarians, their character perhaps something of their plans

    [] Come clean to Harry about this, I am not talking to you behind his abck

    [] Write in

    OOC: I am not posting all of Lasciel's rolls since they would be mildly spoilery, but you guys had... well you will see what your luck looked like.
     
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    • Why did all these crafting system complaints wait until we spent the equivalent of 20 exp on it*? We've been talking about this for months, and the rules have been available to look at.

    If we just wanted fetish crafting we could have bought the ancient sorcery spell for half that price, or the more expensive charm which basically does the same thing but includes some convenience factors.

    Holden's rules need some tweaks, but they make better guidelines than what I've seen so far of the other options and they were what was on the table when we voted for the charm.

    If you guys had that much of an issue why wasn't there a competing plan with AMB or DRC instead?

    * Yes we got a discount, but we got it by taking actions which provided it. That's basically the same thing as earning exp we can't spend on anything else.

    Acolyte said:
    Its not vague bullshit.


    Also those are not applicable at all, we literally had prodigy items here in the thread that make people exalted tier melee fighters. Thats not a normal item by any stretch.

    Also ancient sorcery isn't that strong, like half of its effects summon lava kraken or summin cloud to travel. So it doesn't really make sense to seprate it from that. Hell mortal sorcery is better than its effects as evidenced by how we have chosen them over the sorcery spells, so this is a useless catagory. Things like diaklaives and striders are not useful as well.
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    No we haven't, that's not what those splendors do. They make it do you can't fail in the sense that you always roll at least 1 success when opposed and can successfully do anything you can attempt unopposed with the skill. That's not the same as rolling a kiddy pool of dice.


    Ancient Sorcery in this case is more relevant for its "it just works" properties which allow effects like the one we're talking about.

    It's also worth mentioning that splendors are expensive even at 1 dot.

    Acolyte said:
    We can already do this, we have been doing this. So it doesn't make sense for us to be more limited after buying the charm and not less.
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    We have the tech score of a baked potato, arguably we shouldn't have been allowed to. Even setting that aside gadgets offer more options here, and aren't really what we want the charm for anyway.

    Acolyte said:
    What do you mean, they are the most stringet limitations. I don't see this thread spending multiple AP to help him become a magical batman.

    also we already are at the magical batman stage, have you seen the prodgies suggested they are like entire super hero packages in and themselves, and we could buy anything we need to make someone into bat man already from our world.

    Also i know we shouldn't break the game, i have consistently argued for nerfs
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    Because you don't need multiple AP to make broken stuff once we have any ability to use the base wonder system beyond trivial stuff.
    Acolyte said:
    Deciding how to spend exp is a major part of this game adding more options is how this is supposed to work and we can already do plenty with our current skills so its hardly useless
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    Adding more options by taking what we just bought the ability to do and breaking it into dlc we've got to buy individually is no fun.
    uju32 said:
    There's cursed and there's cursed.
    The current Holden system under discussion literally makes perfect immunities available with 1-dot Splendors.
    Look at this:
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    I'm familiar. That stuff is expensive to make and has flaws. Note that mixed attacks break the immunity.
    uju32 said:
    Its probably not a coincidence that Lord Raith wasnt able to kill Maggie LeFay until she was in childbirth and unable to watch out for herself.
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    Wizards doing it is one thing, every idiot having items to do it for them is another.

    Yog said:
    As I said previously, the nerfing is a strong over-correction. The system is very clearly not intended for any sort of long-term game or change. It's very indicative that the only example of a super-science given is a hand grenade.
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    To be honest: why does it matter? Molly would lose her local science fair unless she cheated using socials or her hell. We don't have the skills to engage in that part of the system and will probably never buy them.
     
    [X] Lore, what do you know really about what I am and where the Exaltation comes from

    I would say vote for the Denarian option, except we'll most likely be able to find a scrying focus for Crown of Eyes at some point that will allow us to ask about them.
    On the other hand, our Exaltation not so much, unless we find a Daiklave or something and even that will still probably be a tossup based on what that artifact even is.
    This is one of our best leads on the subject for now unless we want to call up something like a third circle demon or go ask the Gatekeeper if we run into him.

    This, is still definitely a gamble as it is likely Lash doesn't know anything.

    TL;DR we'll be able to find out info on the Denarians later via CoE or other means, not so much on the our Exaltation unless we go to ask absurdly powerful beings for info or somehow find a Daiklave/First Days artifact we can use as a scrying focus.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    Why did all these crafting system complaints wait until we spent the equivalent of 20 exp on it*? We've been talking about this for months, and the rules have been available to look at.
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    I have said this before Especially when yazrac prested their homebrew magic. You might have missed it.
    BronzeTongue said:
    If you guys had that much of an issue why wasn't there a competing plan with AMB or DRC instead?
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    the problem is with what the charm does, not in possesing it. I would much rather it be wonderforging like in the book instead of the poorly designed tacked on system.
    BronzeTongue said:
    No we haven't, that's not what those splendors do. They make it do you can't fail in the sense that you always roll at least 1 success when opposed and can successfully do anything you can attempt unopposed with the skill. That's not the same as rolling a kiddy pool of dice.
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    No i am talking about the suggested items for daniel that make him like 14 dice pool fighter or something.


    BronzeTongue said:
    Because you don't need multiple AP to make broken stuff once we have any ability to use the base wonder system beyond trivial stuff.
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    No because we won't be so stupid as to waive sphere requirements and it would be easily balanced by requiring AP investment if we want to gather the resources for a strong wonder.
    BronzeTongue said:
    Adding more options by taking what we just bought the ability to do and breaking it into dlc we've got to buy individually is no fun.
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    Its more than that because it expands our repotoire. We shouldn't even be having all those quick money making schemes we have because we have no economics or as you said make scientifc things due to a lack of tech. Having those skills be a massive expansion of our capabilities.

    And we already have most of the relavent magical craftings skills in occult and crafting. And we can get tech advisor from our world if we need to. So its hardly lacking in power now.
     
    [X] Come clean to Harry about this, I am not talking to you behind his back
    if redemption is in the cards, there to be trust all around at some point. And we have information for Harry. If he knows we know, we can talk to him about it, feed him information. He's already involved. This is just perfect.

    And if we redeem her, we'd get lore anyway, just longer term.

    BronzeTongue said:
    To be honest: why does it matter? Molly would lose her local science fair unless she cheated using socials or her hell. We don't have the skills to engage in that part of the system and will probably never buy them.
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    To me it's kinda a principle of the thing for me (call it a pet peeve), and we did dip into high tech with stuff like transports for Odin. Molly might yet grow into that area (and damnit, motonic science is science).
    uju32 said:
    Opening them up to DPoE-equivalents in a world with Fallen and Walkers is in and of itself a signficant downside.
    Our ability to lolnope that sort of thing isnt common. In my opinion.
    Keep in mind that being able to perceive a Fallen is allegedly terrifying if you believe Dresden.
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    Tsotate said:
    And turn them all into Creatures of Darkness, let's not forget that part.
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    Sorry to bring this up again, but I remembered - we might have another option for this. One that both produces minions, and doesn't make them creatures of darkness. I give you Peach Tree of Immortality:

    Form of Verdant Wood (1 pt. Form Element)
    Transformation (3 pt. Root Element)
    Elongation of the Curse (1 pt. Mystic Element) X3 (or Elongation X2 + Mystic Fortification). This is the dicey part that I need approval for. It raises the rating of the splendor to 3 from 1, using the added points in an almost-allowed way to make the transformation permanent.
    Growing in the hidden corner of the world the Tree of Immortality is a promise and a hope that the coming Sixth Age will not be that of Ruin, but instead of a glorious rebirth and newly minted Legends. The peaches it produces are almost illuminated from within by a light of the sun, and anyone fully consuming one will be gifted with a chance to walk the Path Unending. Not all, however, is as rosy as can be assumed at the first glance. The Tree of Immortality and its fruits are a product of their age, when the whole world hangs on the edge of Oblivion. Those taking the first bite of the offered fruit would find the taste far discordant with the enticing visage. Foul and revolting, it tastes like all the sins and atrocities in the world. A strong will (willpower roll against difficulty 8) is required to consume it all, flesh and pit alike, and grasp the offered chance.
    3 dot Arcana
    Willpower 3 (carry over from before transformation)
    Physical (Primary + Superior Body)
    Strength 4 (3+1)
    Dexterity 4 (3+1)
    Stamina 4 (3+1)

    Social (secondary + Superior Poise)
    Charisma 3 (2+1)
    Manipulation 3 (2+1)
    Appearance 4 (3+1)

    mental (tertiary + Superior Mind X2)
    Intelligence 4 (2+2)
    Perception 3 (2+1)
    Wits 4 (2+2)
    Talents (primary, 11 points)
    Alertness 5 (3 +2 from freebie point)
    Athletics 5 (3 + 2 from freebie points)
    Awareness 3
    Brawl 1
    Expression 1

    Skills (secondary, 7 points)
    Melee 3
    Etiquette 3
    Stealth 1

    Knowledges (tetriary, 3 points)
    Occult 3
    Clones are, for most intents, mortals, although they're immune to the Delirium (see W20). They can only soak bashing damage. A clone may be either a genetic replica of a single person, or a hybrid of the features of multiple tissue donors — essentially a "child" of the donors, created in a clone tank.
    Superior Body
    Superior Mind X2
    Superior Poise
    If the Arcana is capable of natural healing, then it now heals at the same rate as Exalted do.
    The years seem to pass you by. Time moves on, but you
    remain essentially the same physical age as you were when this
    Merit stopped your aging process. Maybe you discovered the
    Fountain of Youth, upgraded yourself to perpetual stability,
    assumed an odd relationship with the time stream, or entered
    an uncanny bargain that preserved your current age. And so,
    although you continue to accumulate the scars, experience,
    and perspective of age, your body maintains a consistent state
    of chronological development. Note that this is not the same
    thing as immortality – injuries and sickness can kill you just as
    surely as they'll kill any other person. Age-based decrepitude,
    however, is not something you'll have to worry about.
    Blessed with great vitality, you heal injuries with heroic speed and ease. Your own injuries from lethal damage heal as if they were bashing damage (see the Healing Damage chart in Mage 20, p. 406), and aggravated damage heals as if it were one level higher than it is. (Wounded-level damage, for instance, would heal at the Injured-level rate.) Bashing damage, regardless of its extent, heals within an hour.
    If you're trying to heal someone else, you subtract -2 from the difficulty of the roll, even if that roll involves casting a Life Sphere healing Effect. (The usual +3 maximum modifier and minimum difficulty of 3 still apply – see Mage 20, p. 503.) As long as you remain in physical touch with the injured party, that character uses your healing
    rate as her own. Your touch also soothes minor pains – muscle spasms, headaches, and so forth – within a minute or two.
    Beyond its healing powers, this rush of life-energy simply feels good, too. Your aura shines with bright vitality, and your Resonance reflects your strong connection to the primal life-force. On the inevitable downside, vampires find your blood delicious – twice as potent as normal human vitae (worth double the usual blood points, for players of Vampire: The Masquerade) – and unspeakably refreshing.
    According to the surviving myths and stories, in the forever lost Age of Legends, this level of ability was just barely enough for one to challenge Heavens and to start their journey on the path of immortality. Whether this is true or not, in modern age, the Immortal Cultivator Body transformation requires an investment from a celestial. Upon consuming the fruit of the Tree of Immortality, the mortal target will be wracked with symptoms reminiscent with strong food poisoning. For a night and a day they will be affected by high fever and delirium, diarrhea, vomiting and copious sweating, as their bodies are being remade and impurities are expelled in a form of black tar-like foul smelling toxic sludge. Surprisingly enough, they don't require medical care to last through the process, as their bodies are actually growing in strength and vitality through it.

    When the process completes itself, the target will find themselves rid of almost all blemishes and imperfections, as if they spent a day with a professional makeup artist. They will feel a spark of life burning in their body, the vitality overflowing them, and their strengths raised almost to the peak of human ability. Their senses will be far sharper and, if they didn't have it before, they will find themselves with awareness and instinctive understanding of the supernatural forces of the world they are now part of.

    in the days, years and centuries to come they will find that normal human limits no longer apply to them. With diligent cultivation of their new potential, they will be able to rise to superhuman capability in all their aspects. Those who reach truly enlightened states will discover that it is their minds that are most transcendent, even if at first glance the transformation is aimed at the physical body.
    Basically, an unaging rapidly healing super-vital mortal with a potential to train to superhuman levels and baked in supernatural awareness
     
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    Acolyte said:
    I have said this before Especially when yazrac prested their homebrew magic. You might have missed it.
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    Acolyte said:
    the problem is with what the charm does, not in possesing it. I would much rather it be wonderforging like in the book instead of the poorly designed tacked on system.
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    The thread at large still voted for it with resolving how it may want it changed first. I didn't see a competing plan up at that point either. The revision we're using replaced that charm on purpose, if anything more thought went into it then the original option, and this was known going in.



    Acolyte said:
    No i am talking about the suggested items for daniel that make him like 14 dice pool fighter or something.
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    That's not what those did. We could make a spirit with those dice, but not enhance a person to those levels with a splendor.

    Acolyte said:
    No because we won't be so stupid as to waive sphere requirements and it would be easily balanced by requiring AP investment if we want to gather the resources for a strong wonder.
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    So you want to solve it being broken by doing what Holden did in terms of limiting when we can craft things, but also stop us from doing anything interesting until we've bought all the skills, without actually blocking nonsense like a ring of +40 time travel once we have? That's worse in every way.
     
    It seems like some kind of idiot ball from Lash: why did she need to contact Molly, risking Harry's further distrust and active resistance, only to save him from the hypothetical Council catastrophe? Harry doesn't need to switch allegiances to secure Molly's help, she will rush to save him because of her intimacy. If the White Council falls, he already has a place in Molly's court.

    It seems there is some other scheme in work, it's strange that Molly hasn't detected it with her rolls.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    Why did all these crafting system complaints wait until we spent the equivalent of 20 exp on it*? We've been talking about this for months, and the rules have been available to look at.
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    Do you remember the vote results in the previous arc? It was one of the most contentious votes in the quest, and it was standoff between the shaping defence and CCoP. I didn't think that anyone would vote for the plan with dots in Alchemy and we need to spend AP to start Enchantment.

    Edit: Also, I presumed that Yog knew what he was getting into, considering he had proposed several projects already.
     
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    Cavalar said:
    It seems like some kind of idiot ball from Lash: why did she need to contact Molly, risking Harry's further distrust and active resistance, only to save him from the hypothetical Council catastrophe? Harry doesn't need to switch allegiances to secure Molly's help, she will rush to save him because of her intimacy. If the White Council falls, he already has a place in Molly's court.

    It seems there is some other scheme in work, it's strange that Molly hasn't detected it with her rolls.
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    Maybe the goal is just to secure an agreement in principle so she can get her foot in the door?

    Once we're working with her on one thing it's easier to expand into others, and the longer we're at it the harder it is to stop or involve anyone else who might moderate her influence.

    Being able to truthfully say we're conspiring with her is a form of leverage
    Cavalar said:
    Do you remember the vote results in the previous arc? It was one of the most contentious votes in the quest, and it was standoff between the shaping defence and CCoP. I didn't think that anyone would vote for the plan with dots in Alchemy and we need to spend AP to start Enchantment.
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    That vote was all about getting the charm then or getting it later. For all the scattered complaints about to nobody made a serious effort to propose an alternative even when there are multiple options in the book, or to get a ruling/vote option to use the old version of the charm.

    It definitely needs some modification, but from my perspective this has been voting for what we got and salting over receiving it.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    Maybe the goal is just to secure an agreement in principle so she can get her foot in the door?

    Once we're working with her on one thing it's easier to expand into others, and the longer we're at it the harder it is to stop or involve anyone else who might moderate her influence.

    Being able to truthfully say we're conspiring with her is a form of leverage
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    It's a valid reason, but it seems really heavy-handed to propose such a radical and frankly useless idea:
    DragonParadox said:
    "I want him to swear fealty to you, as a counterbalance to a Council on the brink of shattering, I want him to have some kind of safe harbor."
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    What will Harry win with switching sides to Molly? Nothing, except things he already has. What will he loose? His social standing with the WC and all allied organisations.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    The thread at large still voted for it with resolving how it may want it changed first. I didn't see a competing plan up at that point either. The revision we're using replaced that charm on purpose, if anything more thought went into it then the original option, and this was known going in.
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    The plan wasn't using holdens crafting system it was just for getting the crafting charm. I thought what the crafting system is still open for discussion as DP has said previously that he is considering other options as viable, presumably the concern with those systems are resolved.

    Like we are literally removing several of its rules already, so why use a broken system when we have other options.
    BronzeTongue said:
    That's not what those did. We could make a spirit with those dice, but not enhance a person to those levels with a splendor.
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    I remember it was a ring or something that was supposed to give him some very broken things. I maybe be conflating some of the theory crafting, it was the green lantern ring or something.
    BronzeTongue said:
    So you want to solve it being broken by doing what Holden did in terms of limiting when we can craft things, but also stop us from doing anything interesting until we've bought all the skills, without actually blocking nonsense like a ring of +40 time travel once we have? That's worse in every way.
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    Thats a massive mischaracterison of my suggestion.

    The only good idea in holdens thing was using regents for crafting. That's why i am advocating for it and all the changes of when we can craft are just a logical extrapolation of that.

    And we don't need all the skills, you keep saying that and its not true. We already have crafting and occult, we only need things like technology for tech based wonders and that should be enough to create most wonders we can think. Maybe sciene or computer. We don't need those spehre but getting them will improve our capabilities.

    And we would have something block us from forming a ring of time travel, we would need the reagents for that. If for example we go and kill the big reality dragon and carve his heart into a ring, then yeah i think we desrve a time travel ring. As well as the the massive number of success needed fo achieve such a feat.
     
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    Cavalar said:
    It seems like some kind of idiot ball from Lash: why did she need to contact Molly, risking Harry's further distrust and active resistance, only to save him from the hypothetical Council catastrophe? Harry doesn't need to switch allegiances to secure Molly's help, she will rush to save him because of her intimacy. If the White Council falls, he already has a place in Molly's court.

    It seems there is some other scheme in work, it's strange that Molly hasn't detected it with her rolls.
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    I don't think "swear fealty" is merely about loyalty. Molly is a god queen in her own right, there is magic involved in such oaths, protection in formal allegiance.
    Cavalar said:
    Great, then let's not spend even more XP on another crafting system (fetish-binding charm or sorcery)?
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    Fetishes have their place. They trade limitations (very limited number of attunements) for resources and time to make spirits and fetishes themselves. The charms are synergetic, rather than competitive, really. Devil-refining Cauldron is not a priority at all, but at some much later point, I would like to buy it too.
     
    Actually i think i can articulate why i don't like this system by holden.

    It literally just turns us into a tinker from worm instead of a real wizard or scientists.

    That is why i despise it, it is system designed so we can't leverage it to change the world. Its limitations are artificial ones imposed on a meta level of doing those things instead of the practical problems doing those things would have in the world.

    I hated that idea in that book and i hate it here.
     
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    Cavalar said:
    It seems like some kind of idiot ball from Lash: why did she need to contact Molly, risking Harry's further distrust and active resistance, only to save him from the hypothetical Council catastrophe? Harry doesn't need to switch allegiances to secure Molly's help, she will rush to save him because of her intimacy. If the White Council falls, he already has a place in Molly's court.

    It seems there is some other scheme in work, it's strange that Molly hasn't detected it with her rolls.
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    Because Harry is a stubborn idiot who won't call for help until it's pretty late in the game and more than obvious he needs it.

    If Molly puts her Exalted socials on making Harry accept her protection (which goes pretty much against Harry's instincts and can't be done by Lash), then he'd be much safer than when he is the one who decides when the right time to involve Molly is.
     
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    Artemis1992 said:
    Because Harry is a stubborn idiot who won't call for help until it's pretty late in the game and more than obvious he needs it.

    If Molly puts her Exalted socials on making Harry accept her protection (which goes pretty much against Harry's instincts), then he'd be much safer than when he is the one who decides when the right time to involve Molly is.
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    Well either that or she is still batting for the Fallen seeing this as a stepping stone towards taking up the coin by pushing Harry away from his social and ideological support group, or perhaps she knows something about what Molly is that makes her think Harry serving Molly in some other way. You guys did not roll that well on reading her so the best Molly has is some working theories.

    One thing that is a fair bet though is that Harry trusts Lash's advice less since what happened at the palace, even though he is seemingly willing to take her help ('long story'. )
     
    Acolyte said:
    Actually i think i can articulate why i don't like this system by holden.

    It literally just turns us into a tinker from worm instead of a real wizard or scientists.

    That is why i despise it, it is system designed so we can't leverage it to change the world. Its limitations are artificial ones imposed on a meta level of doing those things instead of the practical problems doing those things would have in the world.

    I hated that idea in that book and i hate it here.
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    I definitely agree at least where it comes to gadgets. Splendors and Arcana I am not so sure about. The intent is there, but the execution is not. We could raise a court of arcana (and mass production of at least horrors is allowed). There are splendor builds that affect the larger world (see my peach tree of immortality several posts above as an example). So, it can be worked around, and as long as we reach an agreement with DragonParadox, it's a fine enough framework to work from.
     
    Yog said:
    I don't think "swear fealty" is merely about loyalty. Molly is a god queen in her own right, there is magic involved in such oaths, protection in formal allegiance.
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    It's meaningless to discuss mystical side of the issue, because we know next to nothing with how it works mechanically. And political side is already covered by Molly murdering the Red King's daughter in revenge for her hit on Dresden. You can't do a more blatant political action.
    Yog said:
    Fetishes have their place. They trade limitations (very limited number of attunements) for resources and time to make spirits and fetishes themselves. The charms are synergetic, rather than competitive, really. Devil-refining Cauldron is not a priority at all, but at some much later point, I would like to buy it too.
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    Yeah, I think, it's certainly too much to spend on the crafting system.
    Acolyte said:
    Actually i think i can articulate why i don't like this system by holden.

    It literally just turns us into a tinker from worm instead of a real wizard or scientists.

    That is why i despise it, it is system designed so we can't leverage it to change the world. Its limitations are artificial ones imposed on a meta level of doing those things instead of the practical problems doing those things would have in the world.

    I hated that idea in that book and i hate it here.
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    Actually, I think it's the successful part of Holden's system. His idea was to keep WoD side of the things relevant and he managed to do it: if Exalted wants to make something permanent, he will need to kill a great monster or to study modern sorcery, somehow. It helps to prevent Exalted from becoming Mages without Paradox and characterising them as the artefact of the another era.
     
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