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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Alectai said:
I think what we need most is a Shaping Defense, but Constructive Convergence of Principles is also gating a lot of cool shit too.
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Yeah. I want to argue for one of the pricy perfect defenses, but during the fight with the knight our closest brush with disaster was shaping. Our crude counterspell isn't a good enough defense.

Maybe if we could craft a really good stopgap, but even that is risky.
Cavalar said:
Could you refer to the charm, if you don't mind?
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Had it up already, here:

ego-inFused pattern primaCy (•••••) Whenever the universe dares to mar the Infernal's immaculate and ideal self, she may exert her will to
reset herself to her default state of perfection.
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hos- tile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence
for the rest of the scene.
Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to
radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage.
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firefrog600 said:
which city was the one that would likely handle most outsiders @Yog ? Both minor rehabilitation and integration and long projects of say converting certain types of demon or someone like nicodemus over centuries?
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In the amounts we can bring in personally? Any. Cities are huge. In general? Endings. It's not just about final death at all.
And when the inhabitants of your world tire of jubilation, grow weary of training, become forlorn in their pursuit of knowledge, they travel to the city at the far west corner of the great pentacle. There, under the amethyst roofs of its buildings and ministrations of the carefully selected caretakers, they find the end to their struggle, and beginning of something new. For not all your citizens are human, and none of them know age and death as mortals do, and in time require assistance to move on, to rest, to change, and perhaps to end. It is also there that other guests of your world, souls of the damned are processed and made to atone for their sins, to find salvation and healing before being let out into the wider society.
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Cavalar said:
Which one is the most promising? Bloodless Murk Evasion will not reliably work during the day, Ablation of Brass and Fire seems to be very cool fluffwise but useless everywhere except cityscape. Counter-Conceptual Interposition is the most reliable, but costly in XP and Essence, when we inevitably face an unknown opponent. Bitter Heart Unbleeding is a variant that uses less Essence, but we must invent something to keep Molly wet during the battle.
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With a city-containing Hell and the Signature-version of the Hell-Charm we can project our reality over the surrounding area whenever we are in Shintai.

So effectivly, we'll always have a City around when we most need it.
 
Artemis1992 said:
With a city-containing Hell and the Signature-version of the Hell-Charm we can project our reality over the surrounding area whenever we are in Shintai.

So effectivly, we'll always have a City around when we most need it.
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I do not want to unduly influence proceedings but I will say this much, that Signature would be particularly terrifying to anyone with a deep understanding of magic, so elder wizards and up. The thing about it is you do not only go 'I reject your reality and substitute my own', you also replace it with a living alien city which implies an unspeakable amount of control of your power no matter how you do it.
 
DragonParadox said:
Black Mirror Incarnation? Yeah, that is a five dot charm from the lies and deception Hell, seeing though that would take a hell of an effort. The Sight Could do it, but that is about it for mystical senses and if you are looking at an infernal with the Sight that has its own issues.
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That makes BMI even more attractive as a Charm, IMO.

Hell, we could keep it running all the time, right? Nothing says we can't disguise ourselves as Molly, maybe with an extra streak of color in our hair or a different shirt on. That would nearly solve the growing problem of everyone with supernatural senses being able to automatically detect our presence.
 
DragonParadox said:
I get where you are coming form, but it is also unprecedented on other manner which will be true even if you choose Hell House and make it lifeless: It is not made out of the stuff of the Spirit Realm, what wizards call the Nevernever. If molly picks up a rock in her hell and takes it back, it will remain a rock not just a rock-like construct that will break apart at the next sunrise or sunset into ectoplasm.
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Worth noting:
We see Ebenezar stabilizing ectoplasm into matter during Peace Talks IIRC, after Dresden spontaneously conjures up a bucket by sneezing during a ritual.

BronzeTongue said:
The scale is part of it, a planet is different than popping up with a city.
I also detest the idea of turning our act of creation into a glorified recycling program. The secret origin punctures a significant aspect of what the hell is and the impact of it from my perspective.
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Yeah I dont see it.
Its like being rich; its going to make no functional difference to your standard of living if you are worth a billion dollars or a hundred billion dollars. At a point you are just keeping score.

Now its nice keeping score, but thats just what it is. Nice.
BronzeTongue said:
You've directly argued against vast hells on the basis of them being too attention consuming and many other factors directly so many times stating that you aren't and haven't been feels incredibly disingenuous to me.
Do you not recall the population discussions just to name one example?

You also ducked the question there. A substantial portion of the thread wants this particular thing, so we might, but would you vote for it? I'm not sure what the point of this is honestly. If it's a feature a significant portion of us want and we're nominally getting it anyway why not get it now and have our radial engagement quests in other areas?
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1) I think we are still having our wires crossed.

I have argued against overlarge populations..
I still think they are a terrible idea, and that under no circumstances should we go over a net billion sophonts in our Hell because it shifts the narrative weight of storytelling actions around.

I havent argued against Hell size; we can have as much territory as we can afford.
I am willing to sacrifice or delay increased Size for (some)other features, but Im not opposed to more size per se.
Like I've said, its just a flex.

Thats two different things.



2)Im not voting for it now, am I? I thought that made my preferences clear.

The point of it is that I didnt want to take the additional flaws that Yog did in order to purchase a planet.
I dont share Yog's fondness for the over the top eldritch stuff, and I dont like the thematic thrust of having an active resistance movement in whats's supposed to be Molly's own Hell and her own soul; I dont like the storytelling direction. Nevermind the fluff.

And if people were complaining about mine involving sidequests, they sure as shit are signing up for several mandatory ones now.

But I see no point in pissing in people's wine.
Especially since I only got here after more than 30 people had already voted.
Im not turning that around on my own. Just voting for what I'd prefer.
 
looking at us with the sight has a high chance of insanity right? Like even looking at a skinwalker can break a man lesser than harry and it still traumatizes him.
 
uju32 said:
Worth noting:
We see Ebenezar stabilizing ectoplasm into matter during Peace Talks IIRC, after Dresden spontaneously conjures up a bucket by sneezing during a ritual.


Yeah I dont see it.
Its like being rich; its going to make no functional difference to your standard of living if you are worth a billion dollars or a hundred billion dollars. At a point you are just keeping score.

Now its nice keeping score, but thats just what it is. Nice.

1) I think we are still having our wires crossed.

I have argued against overlarge populations..
I still think they are a terrible idea, and that under no circumstances should we go over a net billion sophonts in our Hell because it shifts the narrative weight of storytelling actions around.

I havent argued against Hell size; we can have as much territory as we can afford.
I am willing to sacrifice or delay increased Size for (some)other features, but Im not opposed to more size per se.
Like I've said, its just a flex.

Thats two different things.



2)Im not voting for it now, am I? I thought that made my preferences clear.

The point of it is that I didnt want to take the additional flaws that Yog did in order to purchase a planet.
I dont share Yog's fondness for the over the top eldritch stuff, and I dont like the thematic thrust of having an active resistance movement in whats's supposed to be Molly's own Hell and her own soul; I dont like the storytelling direction. Nevermind the fluff.

And if people were complaining about mine involving sidequests, they sure as shit are signing up for several mandatory ones now.

But I see no point in pissing in people's wine.
Especially since I only got here after more than 30 people had already voted.
Im not turning that around on my own. Just voting for what I'd prefer.
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its explicitly non active rebellion in yogs hell uju its literally underground and one population not in our government who refuse to leave their confinement? They literally refuse to leave to cause our government harm. We have to actively pursue them.
 
DragonParadox said:
Black Mirror Incarnation? Yeah, that is a five dot charm from the lies and deception Hell, seeing though that would take a hell of an effort. The Sight Could do it, but that is about it for mystical senses and if you are looking at an infernal with the Sight that has its own issues.
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Wizard Sight probably shouldnt be able to see through BMI.
Probably. At least for most wizards.
Senior/high-Arete tier wizards maybe. Essence vs Arete roll-off.

No idea how you'd scale Mab and the rest of the heavy hitters.
Angels yes, of course.

firefrog600 said:
its explicitly non active rebellion in yogs hell uju its literally underground and one population not in our government who refuse to leave their confinement? They literally refuse to leave to cause our government harm. We have to actively pursue them.
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My dude. It doesnt work that way.
Resistance Movement (Cost: None; gain 1 point): A minority of the Realm's inhabitants fervently hate and resent you, and seek your overthrow or demise. You may only select this option if your Hell is Loyal, Committed, or Fanatical.
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You cant have a non-active rebellion. Thats kinda the point of rebellion.
You cant buy a Flaw and then say that it doesnt count.

People hate us badly enough that they want you overthrown or dead.
People whose survival hinge on our being alive hate us enough they want us dead regardless of the personal consequences.

Think it through. Those are not going to stay in their holes in the ground or whatever.
There is no narrative way they just stay wherever it is you put them.

This is not a safe space until that is dealt with.
You cant have prisoners hear without risking prisonbreak. You have to worry about your enemies getting aid to these people.
This is a mandatory must-pursue side mission as soon as we buy the Hell.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
With a city-containing Hell and the Signature-version of the Hell-Charm we can project our reality over the surrounding area whenever we are in Shintai.

So effectivly, we'll always have a City around when we most need it.
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There's some more stuff to consider as well.

Holden broke the primacy of defense, and based on the solar charms that relate to it there seems to be a mechanically significant difference between "perfect soak" and "perfect block/dodge" now. Some stuff can pierce effects that otherwise perfectly block attacks, but fail against things that don't block the attack but do dismiss all the damage dice and vice versa.

So to be completely insulated we need one of each.

There are also the secondary effects to consider.

Counter conceptual imposition let's us perfectly block against everything a target sends our way in a turn if we spend 2 essence instead of 1, which is a critical consideration with multi attack being what it is.

Who Strikes the Wind does this:

Who striKes the Wind? (•••)
Laughing at the futile efforts of those who would
seek to strike her down, the Infernal momentarily dis- solves into a crimson wind to evade her foes' attacks.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence in response to an attack. The attack fails to strike the Infernal with- out any further dice rolls. If the Infernal spends 2 Es- sence, then she can perfectly defend against (Essence) additional attacks during the remainder of the turn. This Charm cannot be used while standing still.
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Which is very essence efficient if we're being attacked by multiple different enemies at once since it's 2 mores for 1 + Essence Rating perfect dodges.


Unfortunately they're both attack instead of damage defenses, so picking them together is suboptimal.

BSM has that teleport thing, but we're looking for defense and not utility here. So all it's got going for it is cheap, and since it's flaw allows for people to prepare weapons it will never work against if they figure out the trick it should probably be dropped.

I'd say that AoBF is the most cost effective perfect soak, but that we should probably buy WstW as our perfect soak before it.

Multi attack is more likely to be an issue in the immediate term than someone managing to immobilize us or pull a perfect dodge bypass.

Though I'd still put shaping defenses above either of them.
 
uju32 said:
Wizard Sight probably shouldnt be able to see through BMI.
Probably. At least for most wizards.
Senior/high-Arete tier wizards maybe. Essence vs Arete roll-off.

No idea how you'd scale Mab and the rest of the heavy hitters.
Angels yes, of course.


My dude. It doesnt work that way.

You cant have a non-active rebellion. Thats kinda the point of rebellion.
You cant buy a Flaw and then say that it doesnt count.

People hate us badly enough that they want you overthrown or dead.
People whose survival hinge on our being alive hate us enough they want us dead regardless of the personal consequences.

Think it through. Those are not going to stay in their holes in the ground or whatever.
There is no narrative way they just stay wherever it is you put them.

This is not a safe space until that is dealt with.
You cant have prisoners hear without risking prisonbreak. You have to worry about your enemies getting aid to these people.
This is a mandatory must-pursue side mission as soon as we buy the Hell.
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dp already said its fine and even made a comment on it earlier. So even if the mechanic works that way its already been approved. They are going to try testing molly and they aren't going to try and leave the prison. Also their not actually imprisoned so much as refuse to leave.
 
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uju32 said:
Wizard Sight probably shouldnt be able to see through BMI.
Probably. At least for most wizards.
Senior/high-Arete tier wizards maybe. Essence vs Arete roll-off.

No idea how you'd scale Mab and the rest of the heavy hitters.
Angels yes, of course.


My dude. It doesnt work that way.

You cant have a non-active rebellion. Thats kinda the point of rebellion.
You cant buy a Flaw and then say that it doesnt count.

People hate us badly enough that they want you overthrown or dead.
People whose survival hinge on our being alive hate us enough they want us dead regardless of the personal consequences.

Think it through. Those are not going to stay in their holes in the ground or whatever.
There is no narrative way they just stay wherever it is you put them.

This is not a safe space until that is dealt with.
You cant have prisoners hear without risking prisonbreak. You have to worry about your enemies getting aid to these people.
This is a mandatory must-pursue side mission as soon as we buy the Hell.
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The resistance movement is sitting on some of the most valuable and ancient part of the hell, the issue is less than they are going to try and kill you and more that they are actively in the way of improving the Hell in this case.
 
offhand if the five fold court wins dp are you gonna create any more races for our hell? Like undocumented stuff that lives in the very very large wastes, stuff in the lower layers of the prison, or even stuff that somehow lives in the tornadoes that surround the realm? Maybe a village that somehow survived to live in the wastes?
 
uju32 said:
Yeah I dont see it.
Its like being rich; its going to make no functional difference to your standard of living if you are worth a billion dollars or a hundred billion dollars. At a point you are just keeping score.

Now its nice keeping score, but thats just what it is. Nice.
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We can make a pocket realm peer to this with the baseline crafting rules without even killing anything impressive for it.

The scale does matter for the impact it has at a high level in multiple ways. It's a materially bigger deal.

Politically at the minimum the scale factor changes how other powers will treat us as a power.
uju32 said:
think we are still having our wires crossed.
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Prior to population you were arguing against the same idea on the basis of not picking something too outsized for the setting.

Maybe I was misinterpreting things this whole time, but nothing you've written on this has read like anything other than an argument for building a city state tier hell moving across different domains of the design.
 
uju32 said:
My dude. It doesnt work that way.
You cant have a non-active rebellion. Thats kinda the point of rebellion.
You cant buy a Flaw and then say that it doesnt count.

People hate us badly enough that they want you overthrown or dead.
People whose survival hinge on our being alive hate us enough they want us dead regardless of the personal consequences.

Think it through. Those are not going to stay in their holes in the ground or whatever.
There is no narrative way they just stay wherever it is you put them.

This is not a safe space until that is dealt with.
You cant have prisoners hear without risking prisonbreak. You have to worry about your enemies getting aid to these people.
This is a mandatory must-pursue side mission as soon as we buy the Hell.
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I think I threaded that needle. The native Great Labyrinth tribes are in the, well, Great Labyrinth (Ancestral Prison, etc). They will respond with hostility if approached, and we'd have to work on correcting that (we were told that diplomacy is possible to correct the flaw after the world's creation). But I didn't write them as expansionist. As others have mentioned, this is a flaw on the scale of deadly flora. Deadly flora can be avoided. So can these guys be, if voters aren't interested in this. I made them as an opportunity.

We probably won't agree on this, same as how I am fervently opposed to overpouplation, which I view, based on the text as written, as far worse than the rebel faction, and you think it's not that bad.
 
[X] Yog
[X] The Hell of Ten Thousand Eyes
Cavalar said:
So, setting aside the excitement about Molly's Kingdom, what should be our next priority in XP spending? I personally think we should save for the "perfect defence" charm.

Which one is the most promising? Bloodless Murk Evasion will not reliably work during the day, Ablation of Brass and Fire seems to be very cool fluffwise but useless everywhere except cityscape. Counter-Conceptual Interposition is the most reliable, but costly in XP and Essence, when we inevitably face an unknown opponent. Bitter Heart Unbleeding is a variant that uses less Essence, but we must invent something to keep Molly wet during the battle.

What do you think?
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In my opinion is the charm of creation, as it has a huge interest of many people and the topic has had great ideas so far with incredible effects: my two favorites are the Chicago God and Daniel's equipment (sword and transformation stone) .
 
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Cavalar said:
So, setting aside the excitement about Molly's Kingdom, what should be our next priority in XP spending? I personally think we should save for the "perfect defence" charm.

Which one is the most promising? Bloodless Murk Evasion will not reliably work during the day, Ablation of Brass and Fire seems to be very cool fluffwise but useless everywhere except cityscape. Counter-Conceptual Interposition is the most reliable, but costly in XP and Essence, when we inevitably face an unknown opponent. Bitter Heart Unbleeding is a variant that uses less Essence, but we must invent something to keep Molly wet during the battle.

What do you think?
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Perfect defenses is a bit anti synergistic with having alot of soak. Most other exalted types tend to depend on them because they have to, but even the mighty Jon Chung pioneer of exalted paranoia combat agrees Internals can get along without them. We need an anti-shaping defense more.

Of course some more Ox body would also be good.
 
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fictionfan said:
Perfect defenses is a bit anti synergistic with having alot of soak. Most other exalted types tend to depend on them because they have to, but even the mighty Jon Chung pioneer of exalted paranoia combat agrees Internals can get along without them. We need an anti-shaping defense more.

Of course some more Ox body would also be good.
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Anti synergistic?

They're critical elements of any build, but they're always more expensive than regular defenses. The exp costs being annoying isn't an outsized negative, it's the normal price of doing business.
 
Hrm, two questions-
. First, if we bring worshiping citizens from inside the hell out, do they just go back as spirits as they die? It would take away some of the tension of risking death in the outside world if you just pop back in the city if endings.
. Second, with making Kingdom our signature shintai charm, can we choose what 'general area flavor' when we activate it? For the courts that could be between the palace, the city's, the jungles, the prison, and the wastes.
 
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