Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Even if it's not an explicit alliance, he's still getting something he wants from us: getting revenge on someone who bound him.

It feels pretty disrespectful for us to let our friends come to harm like this, because we know Broken Seeker will hurt them, just not permanently.

Plus letting a supernatural murder god just keep on doing his thing for some nebulous future greater good does not sit well with me. We can put the Red Court on our shit list and go after them all on our own.
1) Arianna Ortega did not bind him, she hired him.
We appear to have convinced him that she was dealing in bad faith at best because bullshit social combat, but we dont actually know that.


2) Initiating combat has a non-zero chance of our friends dying.

And not just them, given that this is Chicago, a city of 3 million, and a full out magical fire fight against the naagloshii and its crew is straight up going to lead into the midst of civilians being used as human shields, according to the Native American Senior Council wizard:
"You had it on the run," I said. "You could have killed it."
"Sure," Listens-to-Wind said. "Would have been a chase, and then more fight. Might have taken hours. Would have made the old ghost desperate. It would have started using innocents as shields, obstacles, distractions." The old medicine man shrugged. "Maybe I would have lost, too. And while it was going on, spiders would be eating fat old hill-billies and picking their fangs clean with their bones."

Ebenezar snorted. "Never would have happened. I don't much care for vampires, especially not those White Court weasels, but I'll say this much for them. They can fight, when they have a mind to. After the first rush, those bugs were a lot more careful."
"Yeah," I said. "They didn't have much of a spine when they tried to stop me on the trail to Edinburgh."
Both of the old wizards traded a look, and then Injun Joe turned back to me. "You got jumped by spiders going through the Way?"
"Yeah," I said. I thought about it and was surprised. Had it happened so recently? "Two days ago, when I came to Edinburgh. I told you about it. The killer must have had some kind of watch put on the Chicago end of the Way, to get them into position in time to intercept me." I let out a weary little snigger.
The risk of collateral damage was part of why Injun Joe didnt press the engagement on Demonreach, and that fight didnt start in the middle of the metropolis of Chicago.
I assure you that most people would prefer disrespect to an increased chance of death.


3) It is not our job to fix all the worlds problems right this evening.
Know when to hold them, when to fold them, and dont overplay your hand.
Its not like we dont know where to find Broken Seeker if we want to in the future.

If an armed group near a school were willing to stand down and walk away, and the police forced a firefight in that location anyway, we would want the heads of the police officer who gave the orders to start the fight.
Same logic here.
 
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[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
 
Even if it's not an explicit alliance, he's still getting something he wants from us: getting revenge on someone who bound him.

It feels pretty disrespectful for us to let our friends come to harm like this, because we know Broken Seeker will hurt them, just not permanently.

Plus letting a supernatural murder god just keep on doing his thing for some nebulous future greater good does not sit well with me. We can put the Red Court on our shit list and go after them all on our own.
That isn't what he wants, or rather wanted, from us. We made him want that from us instead of his original plan specifically because it made it possible get our friends out alive and avoid a mass casualty event in a major city.

Letting him do his thing for the greater good isn't why we'd be doing this, we'd be delaying retribution until he's not in our face with a cabal of cannibal sorcerers ready to make a mess.

We've defanged one of his two known contingencies, he's not going to lay down to die for us.

Being disrespectful in the way we ensure they live and eventually get their revenge isn't that high a comparative priority to actually saving people.

Especially since if we attack before he puts on his show we'll be doing it while they're in his hands. There is no world where they get out of this unharmed; only degrees to which we can control what that harm is.

We won social combat about as cleanly as is reasonably possible and got everything we needed from it. Don't immediately toss it to dive back into the exact problem we started with.

Edit:

I don't really want to do this exactly, but I'm still chewing on an alternative.

Starting a fight after we just spent so much time disarming one because picking it was a bad idea by the enemy's design is a bad idea.

[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
 
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1) Arianna Ortega did not bind him, she hired him.
We appear to have convinced him that she was dealing in bad faith at best because bullshit social combat, but we dont actually know that.


2) Initiating combat has a non-zero chance of our friends dying.

And not just them, given that this is Chicago, a city of 3 million, and a full out magical fire fight against the naagloshii and its crew is straight up going to lead into the midst of civilians being used as human shields, according to the Native American Senior Council wizard:
[...]
I assure you that most people would prefer disrespect to an increased chance of death.


3) It is not our job to fix all the worlds problems right this evening.
Know when to hold them, when to fold them, and dont overplay your hand.
Its not like we dont know where to find Broken Seeker if we want to in the future.

If an armed group near a school were willing to stand down and walk away, and the police forced a firefight in that location anyway, we would want the heads of the police officer who gave the orders to start the fight.
Same logic here.

1) I see. I wasn't 100% on why he was interested in turning on her.

2) I think I was assuming that Izzy and Alec would still suffer because of this section:
He is planning to put Izzy and Alec up in the park in some way that is painful and terrifying, but not crippling, by the standards of Broken Seeker's kind a show of goodwill, by any humane standard torture, an invitation to ante up and pay him something 'for his trouble'.
I suppose the intent of negotiating is to get him not to harm them, which makes sense. In either case, I'm assuming Molly considers that she has at least good odds of success in this case. Otherwise her internal narrative would have mentioned something about it being inherently risky.

Also, most of the discussion I've seen has centered on if we could use this opportunity to come at a bigger evil, instead of how we can keep our friends safe.

3) I think reasonable people can disagree whether going for Broken Seeker now is overplaying our hand or not. I think establishing a policy of going scorched earth on people who mess with our less supernatural friends will also help protect them in the future where we may not be able to immediately respond.

3.1) The police example does not quite fit because the police usually are not usually empowered to have the US declare war on some other country as part of hostage negotiations :)


I'm assuming we'll have a chance to come up with a plan of attack once we decide that we are going to attack. Like getting people away and exfiltrating Alex and Izzy. I don't think it's fair to contrast these two options as "definitely saving our friends" vs "going off half-cocked in a reckless fashion."
 
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Also, most of the discussion I've seen has centered on if we could use this opportunity to come at a bigger evil, instead of how we can keep our friends safe.

Then you've been skimming or something because using him for anything only really came up recently and the thrust of this entire effort is based on saving our friends and the mortal bystanders.

Remember that this guy is has the paranoia of millennia behind him and his first two cards here are killing the hostages and causing as much mortal suffering/death as he can in the surrounding area.

One of those is defused when he lets Molly's friends go and we've had time to remove his contingencies. The other is entirely viable until he's out of the city. That's just what we know about right now too.

Making this point here is virtue signaling from the top of a pile of bodies.

3) I think reasonable people can disagree whether going for Broken Seeker now is overplaying our hand or not. I think establishing a policy of going scorched earth on people who mess with our less supernatural friends will also help protect them in the future where we may not be able to immediately respond.
It's been discussed extensively why this isn't a simple issue, and why the simple immediate satisfaction approach isn't an implicitly a good idea.
3.1) The police example does not quite fit because the police usually are not usually empowered to have the US declare war on some other country as part of hostage negotiations :)
What does that have to do with the price of milk? We aren't empowered by the people who Broken Seeker would kill to declare war on their behalf and if we were they still be dead because we couldn't keep our cool.
 
[x] Yog

I don't like the idea of teaming up with this guy. And with this as an Accord breach, we just need to let Mab know and she'll go after the Red Court on her own, no favors needed. Let's just gank this guy in Shintai form with a bunch of backup and be done with this.
 
[x] Yog

I don't like the idea of teaming up with this guy. And with this as an Accord breach, we just need to let Mab know and she'll go after the Red Court on her own, no favors needed. Let's just gank this guy in Shintai form with a bunch of backup and be done with this.
What happens when half his adds scatter to eat people in the city? Cause that's one half of his plan right now.

We don't have to hang out with him, just kill a vamp we already want to kill. Help handle doesn't mean a road trip or something.

Edit:

Seriously, he thinks we have a betrayal fetish so strong that it actually interferes with our productivity. Why are we expecting Broken Seeker to make this any easier than it just was if we trigger the exact type of scenario he's been planning to defend against?
 
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To be clear about what's grinding my gears here, it's kind of wild that this is being presented as any kind of moral issue.

As far as I read it, we just played out a difficult social combat encounter and won. We flipped the script and turned a hostage situation welded to a magically enhanced mass shooting into a zero casualty hand off. We even get an antagonist to leave while hating another enemy of ours, so that we can kill them both for being monsters as soon as we feasibly can.

The counter argument I'm seeing to taking the victory we just bought is that winning this way doesn't feel good, so we should toss what we just gained and pay an unknown number of innocent lives - including those of the specific people we're trying to rescue and are therefore highest on the kill list - for the chance to have satisfaction too.

That's just crazy.
 
[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
 
And I still dont think that his calling us kin is anything more than half-sincere at best.
Its not like he can move to Chicago; every day away from his home base weakens him.
I'll have to hunt down the quote, but I believe that @DragonParadox clarified that "weakens outside its own territory" means "can't actively replenish power using land's power, but is otherwise perfectly ok". Also, even if it can't move here, we could communicate and meat up periodically.
Arianna Ortega hiring an assassin to operate in Chicago is a straight up breach of Mab's Accords
That's arguable, depending on how Accords treat independent contractors (who are not signatories of the Accords themselves) and what the agreement signed by the Red Court said. Like, a group of three outsiders followed Ebenezar into Chicago several months ago. It's most likely a grey area at best. Violation of the spirit, but not the technical letter of the rules.

On the subject of redeeming Broken Seeker: I realize that this is a correct thing to do. I just don't really want to. @DragonParadox if you don't mind, could you count me as abstaining from this vote for now? I can't actually switch my vote because people already voted for my plan by name.
 
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To be clear about what's grinding my gears here, it's kind of wild that this is being presented as any kind of moral issue.

As far as I read it, we just played out a difficult social combat encounter and won. We flipped the script and turned a hostage situation welded to a magically enhanced mass shooting into a zero casualty hand off. We even get an antagonist to leave while hating another enemy of ours, so that we can kill them both for being monsters as soon as we feasibly can.

The counter argument I'm seeing to taking the victory we just bought is that winning this way doesn't feel good, so we should toss what we just gained and pay an unknown number of innocent lives - including those of the specific people we're trying to rescue and are therefore highest on the kill list - for the chance to have satisfaction too.

That's just crazy.
I didn't even want to talk to him in the first place and now we have a better shot at saving the hostages.
 
If we take the "peacefully resolve this" path, we should use NWS on Broken Seeker. Because we'll be interacting with it for a long time afterwards, and we'll need to work on making him tolerable.

Also, are we going after Arianna right now, or is it an additional obligation for the next month? We already have:
1) Strengthening the Order of Cauldron
2) Helping Olivia to overcome the block on her magic (possibly by contacting her ancestor)
3) Helping (or otherwise dealing with) Daniel
4) Finishing up Last Station
5) School, which now likely includes dealing with the fallout of this event in regards to our friends' mental health and implications on our friendship
6) Visiting our kingdom
 
[x] Yog

Its an agreement in writing, witnessed under the Accords and auspices of the Archive.
Dresden won even with Ortega attempting to cheat, and the Reds were obliged to stay of Chicago until Changes, when they decided to break every rule and agreement they were party to.
There are no Reds in Chickago.
Depending on what exactly Ortega signed a freelancer like the Naagloshii might not count as a breach of contract.
To be clear about what's grinding my gears here, it's kind of wild that this is being presented as any kind of moral issue.
To me it kinda is.

This is our one chance to kill a very cunning and slippery monster who will otherwise continue to kill for centuries.
Not taking that chance might save more lives now, but it certainly won't in the long run.

Besides, I see no real choice between killing him or Arianna Ortega.
She's just a vamp and unlike her father she doesn't spend all her time in a lair surrounded by the other most powerful Rampires.
She travels, she just walked to a Skinwalker alone.
To me that means we can get her anyway, we are fast and have divinatory abilities, assassinating a single Elder is well within our reach.
 
I didn't even want to talk to him in the first place and now we have a better shot at saving the hostages.
We do have a better shot, and it's the one we got by talking. Attacking while Broken Seeker is within arm's reach or his personnel are operating in the city barely moves the needle.

You also didn't actually refute anything in my post. Is the satisfaction of killing him right now because he's a bad guy and should operate like a power ranger villain really worth the immediately obvious consequences to you?
[x] Yog


There are no Reds in Chickago.
Depending on what exactly Ortega signed a freelancer like the Naagloshii might not count as a breach of contract.

To me it kinda is.

This is our one chance to kill a very cunning and slippery monster who will otherwise continue to kill for centuries.
Not taking that chance might save more lives now, but it certainly won't in the long run.

Besides, I see no real choice between killing him or Arianna Ortega.
She's just a vamp and unlike her father she doesn't spend all her time in a lair surrounded by the other most powerful Rampires.
She travels, she just walked to a Skinwalker alone.
To me that means we can get her anyway, we are fast and have divinatory abilities, assassinating a single Elder is well within our reach.
Why not kill them both in the next year? As the focus of the next few arcs even?

We're not his friend, and he's definitely earned a place in the book of grudges.

We don't need to force other people to make a "noble sacrifice" here. We just need to actually work with the consequences of our actions instead of trying to force everything in the most immediate possible way.
 
Why not kill them both in the next year? As the focus of the next few arcs even?
I don't like our odds of tracking down the Naagloshii in the wild.

Ortega is a political player, she'll always draw some manner of attention, leave traces of her acivities, crown foci, etc.
Hunting her is within our and Harry's means.

The Naagloshii can just dissapear in the unreasonably vast emptyness that are some parts of America and we'll never find him again, nor identify which dissapearances are his fault and which ones natural or caused by one of the thousands of other predators out there.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 8, 2023 at 1:04 AM, finished with 66 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
    [X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van
    -[X] Ask Harry if he has ways to even the numbers as well, like the Alphas and Mouse
    -[X] Warn Murphy about what's going on, including how she and SI are certain to be under observation
    [X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van
 
[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends


We were doing hostage negotiation, we succeeded, and we got the ancient serial killer aimed at someone else we want taken down. We're going to take down Broken Seeker at some point, but let's not let impatience screw up what we've already achieved here.
 
I don't like our odds of tracking down the Naagloshii in the wild.
We can track pretty much anything and everything with the Crown, and naagloshii is certainly strong enough to leave foci by his mere presence. Foci last a year and a day. Also, Lydia has this broken as hell charm:
Quarry Revelation Technique (•••)
The Exigent can read the shape her quarry leaves in the world; it is as though the land, the plants, the air itself conspire to lead her to her prey.
System: Once the character finds some evidence of a trail to follow, her player may spend 1 Essence to perfectly track the target for the next 24 hours. No roll is needed.
"Some evidence of the trail to follow". No time limit on how cold the trail is, no limit on how small the piece of evidence can be. Perfect effect. Finding it won't be a problem.
 
[X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van
-[X] Ask Harry if he has ways to even the numbers as well, like the Alphas and Mouse
-[X] Warn Murphy about what's going on, including how she and SI are certain to be under observation
 
That's arguable, depending on how Accords treat independent contractors (who are not signatories of the Accords themselves) and what the agreement signed by the Red Court said. Like, a group of three outsiders followed Ebenezar into Chicago several months ago. It's most likely a grey area at best. Violation of the spirit, but not the technical letter of the rules.

On the subject of redeeming Broken Seeker: I realize that this is a correct thing to do. I just don't really want to. @DragonParadox if you don't mind, could you count me as abstaining from this vote for now? I can't actually switch my vote because people already voted for my plan by name.
If you hire someone to act for you, under the Accords, they are acting in your name and on your behalf, and you get the credit. And blame. This is a well-established principle in the Dresden Files that harkens back to Summer Knight when Mab appointed Dresden as Emissary to act for Winter.

When the Alphas killed the Tigress, Harry got the responsibility.
When the Za-Guard killed Summer Lady Aurora, it was chalked up to Dresden's score card. When Murphy killed Maeve, it was also Dresden's responsibility.

The hit squad that followed Ebenezar didnt move past the Way where he entered Chicago.
If Chicago offered no protection, he wouldnt have stopped here and risked bringing Outsiders into the middle of a bunch of vanilla mortals.
There are no Reds in Chickago.
Depending on what exactly Ortega signed a freelancer like the Naagloshii might not count as a breach of contract.
No, thats not how it works.

Give Dresden and the White Council credit for a little sense; if the Red Court could circumvent that treaty by just going Im not touching you, this contractor or summoned creature is, it would not be worth the paper it was printed on.
And Harry would not have fought a duel for a useless piece of paper.

This was not a verbal understanding, there was a paper contract, with defined limits.
And given the Red Court's reputation for cheating, Dresden sure as fuck had everything spelled out.
I don't like our odds of tracking down the Naagloshii in the wild.

Ortega is a political player, she'll always draw some manner of attention, leave traces of her acivities, crown foci, etc.
Hunting her is within our and Harry's means.

The Naagloshii can just dissapear in the unreasonably vast emptyness that are some parts of America and we'll never find him again, nor identify which dissapearances are his fault and which ones natural or caused by one of the thousands of other predators out there.
Its a naagloshii.
It cannot move away from its base for any sort of prolonged time without losing power and weakening.
Thats why they are all based on indigenous lands or near Native American communities; they dont get a choice.

I mean, his lair is not a secret. We literally saw it in a vision.
Arianna Ortega had not been out of Mexico for almost two centuries and she found it just fine

To be clear about what's grinding my gears here, it's kind of wild that this is being presented as any kind of moral issue.

As far as I read it, we just played out a difficult social combat encounter and won. We flipped the script and turned a hostage situation welded to a magically enhanced mass shooting into a zero casualty hand off. We even get an antagonist to leave while hating another enemy of ours, so that we can kill them both for being monsters as soon as we feasibly can.


The counter argument I'm seeing to taking the victory we just bought is that winning this way doesn't feel good, so we should toss what we just gained and pay an unknown number of innocent lives - including those of the specific people we're trying to rescue and are therefore highest on the kill list - for the chance to have satisfaction too.

That's just crazy.
^^^
People want to start a fight with a naagloshii and 12 skinwalkers in the middle of an urban center with our friends nearby and only Harry and Michael as backup, and our Essence at 2/3rds capacity.
Right after we somehow managed to talk the dude into walking away in a feat of legendary Social Combat.

Its genuinely mindboggling.
 
Ok, I am convinced to switch my vote. However, others have voted by name for my plan. So, if possible, @DragonParadox please consider my vote to be for "[] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends" without affecting those who voted for me by name
 
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