Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

That said I have presented some immortals without great wealth in this quest already. Remember those shen? They seem to be living a pretty in spite of the fact that they have been in Chicago for decades and alive for who knows how long. I think that most of the wealth of supenatural beings comes from more than just being long-lived though that does help them keep it
Ghouls and vampires of all kinds who are low on the social totem pole (reds more so then whites) are good examples of near-immortals without great wealth. Hell, many fae are too. How old is Toot-Toot anyway? It would not surprise me if he was at least two or three hundred years old.

On the vote... Personally, I don't like and don't actually want to see a lot of naagloshii. Too corrupt for my tastes. However, I dislike hypocrisy even more. We already killed his follower, and i disliked that. Are we killing all others? And do we give up on redeeming Fallen Angels before even trying? This is a hard decision. I'll have to think about it for at least a night.

For now, I'll switch to killing it here and now. I'll probably oscillate a lot on this vote.


[X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van
-[X] Ask Harry if he has ways to even the numbers as well, like the Alphas and Mouse
-[X] Warn Murphy about what's going on, including how she and SI are certain to be under observation


Jade dogs aren't ready. They don't have equipment or training.
 
Ghouls and vampires of all kinds who are low on the social totem pole (reds more so then whites) are good examples of near-immortals without great wealth. Hell, many fae are too. How old is Toot-Toot anyway? It would not surprise me if he was at least two or three hundred years old.

On the vote... Personally, I don't like and don't actually want to see a lot of naagloshii. Too corrupt for my tastes. However, I dislike hypocrisy even more. We already killed his follower, and i disliked that. Are we killing all others? And do we give up on redeeming Fallen Angels before even trying? This is a hard decision. I'll have to think about it for at least a night.

For now, I'll switch to killing it here and now. I'll probably oscillate a lot on this vote.


[X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van
-[X] Ask Harry if he has ways to even the numbers as well, like the Alphas and Mouse
-[X] Warn Murphy about what's going on, including how she and SI are certain to be under observation


Jade dogs aren't ready. They don't have equipment or training.

The fey are a bit of a special case because they are not creatures of the material world at all, they can have palaces in the Nevernever and simply not bother with humans and their... green cotton notes *insert bemused fey noble here* :V
 
Also there's propably some nuance to accumulating wealth.

It doesn't just grow by a straight percentage.
Theres crises and inflation, the banks holding your money might fail, your portfolio-manager might have lost most of your money in a big crash like Black Friday or one of the smaller ones nearly every decade afterwards.

Sure, if you keep the money conservativly, in a stable bank and a stable currency in a stable country like Swiss you should still see it grow over time, but you shouldn't just assume X% over Y years makes a huge pile of money.
 
But for Usum you might have missed the implication in the sandpaper-voice. If things were less dire you might have preferred it that way. Is he trying to kink-shame me? You consider it a moment. He is, he thinks I'm attracted to dishonour and is... trying to make me feel shame at the fact this is getting in the way of my goals.

"Mad you name me but lo, look to yourself. You're very well prepared for today, but what about tomorrow? You can hurt my mortals, and that's certainly leverage, but it has a shelf life and I know you."

A sort of deep resonant hum comes over the phone, a sound you do not think the humanoid voice-box could ever make and only then does it occur to you that Broken Seeker might see shame and madness though a lens as skewed as he does treachery. He is flirting with you, the nightmare-demon to the Navajo, false idol to broken madmen is flirting with you over the phone.
That happened.
Congratulations @DragonParadox ; that is NOT how I saw this going.

15 successes.
Damn Molly, you are terrifying when you put your mind to it.

Arianna Ortega is just one vamp.
She'll cause damage, but sooner or later she'll get killed either by her enemies, or her rivals, or her subordinates.
Or just in the fall of the Red Court in general.
There's a limited lifespan to her evil, despite her theoretical immortality.
Her kind of person makes her death a good thing for too many people to really enjoy the longest run.

Meanwhile the Naagloshii will hunt, torture and kill people for a very long time to come, and if he doesn't anger an Exalt, Mab or someone capable of commanding Demonreach while doing so, he will continue indefinitly.

So I think all in all Seeker will cause more harm than Arianna will ever have a chance to cause.
Duchess Arianna Ortega is the daughter of the Red King, widow of Duke Paul Ortega, and has been around for anywhere from 500 years(when we know she married Paul Ortega) to 4000 years old(estimated age of the Red King according to Dresden).
Seeker is a solo serial killer who principally preys on magical people; Ariana is a major political figure in a nation of bloodsuckers.

I am reasonably sure she has been responsible for far more deaths, personally and organizationally, than Seeker.
This is not a defense of Seeker.
Just a bald statement of fact.

Just her involvement in the events of the Vampire War thus far probably counts for more deaths than the naagloshii has personally caused in the last century.
On Compound Interest and Immortality:

I always found the idea that immortals automatically figure out how to keep their money utterly unrealistic. Most ordinary people don't know how to keep money and in most moneyed people that skill has been instilled at a young age so why would a poor immortal become rich just because they lived for a century or two?
Why? There's literally mortal families and firms that specialize in money management over generations.
The oldest continuously operating banks in the world date themselves back to the fifteenth and sixteenth century; BMPS in Italy dates back to 1472, and Berenberg Bank in Germany dates back to 1590.

Even royalty and nobles used to outsource that shit, a lot of times to the Jewish community.
An immortal is going to do much the same thing, with the bonus of offering physical and magical protection against business partners with political leverage who try to, say, get out of paying a debt by killing the lender.

Or, just as likely, find a neutral immortal that works in that space.
One thing to keep in mind also is that you are not alone here, if you want to try to ally with the ancient god-monster you will have to come up with some reason for what you are doing as well as present a plan for what you want out of the whole thing. On the plus side Michael is generally pro-redemption, even if he does not generally think things like Broken Seeker can be redeemed. On the... minus side Harry just spend months learning about how awful Skinwalkers are.
Bears remembering that Demonreach has 6x naagloshii in its minimum security section.
Dropping a naagloshii into jail can and has been done; if we build our Hell with containment facilities, we can still do it.

Changing one is probably an Exalted-tier social task.
Easier than a Denarian though.
 
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Also vampires are predatory beings all of which have some kind of mind magic. If one of them really wants some seed capital they can get it from their last victim.

That said I have presented some immortals without great wealth in this quest already. Remember those shen? They seem to be living a pretty in spite of the fact that they have been in Chicago for decades and alive for who knows how long. I think that most of the wealth of supenatural beings comes from more than just being long-lived though that does help them keep it
Arawn's portfolio being the dead places him in a particularly advantageous position for money and financial information.
How many people die with hidden treasure and resources? Or the locations of such?
Or may have left ghosts with applicable knowledge or skills?

Especially when you couple that with the fact that Mab tasking him with running down necromancers means he had to stay current and involved with the human society that spawned them.
 
Arianna Ortega is heir to the Red King, an entity that slew a pantheon of gods and led his children to eat them, and has dominated a continent for four thousand years and is leader of a major supernatural power.
One vampire can be a big deal.
Point of correction:
I think the implication in the RPG is that he overthrew and imprisoned them.
Not that he ate them.
 
One thing to keep in mind also is that you are not alone here, if you want to try to ally with the ancient god-monster you will have to come up with some reason for what you are doing as well as present a plan for what you want out of the whole thing. On the plus side Michael is generally pro-redemption, even if he does not generally think things like Broken Seeker can be redeemed. On the... minus side Harry just spend months learning about how awful Skinwalkers are.
Molly doesnt know this IC of course.

But its worth recalling that Harry did a deal with Mavra the Master Black Court vampire for the Word of Kemmler in order to protect Murphy back during Dead Beat.
So I would not necessarily be surprised if he was suspiciously silent on the issue of deals with evil entities.
 
I am very tempted to switch back to allying with Broken Seeker to take down Arianna, or, better yet, to take her as a prisoner. She's strategically important to Red Court, and to White Council (due to their war). The opportunity to attack her isn't easy to come by. Naagloshii is a good practice to redeeming Lash, Lasciel and denarians in general.

The downside of this plan is that it assumes that Broken Seeker will keep thinking of us as kin. We feel similarly corrupted, but we are very much not its kin. In the Dresden Verse cosmology White God is probably the closest we have to kin. Well, him and Gaia, if she still exists. I am fairly sure that Broken Seeker (is BS abbreviation intentional, by the way?) hasn't spent long time in our direct company. He might get disillusioned quickly, and understand his mistake. We don't actually have acting abilities or disguise charms.
 
Infernals apparently appear to supernatural senses like arch devils on day release. Presumably he's sensed that and so judged us accordingly. He'll continue to sense that and so continue to do so.

Things would be different if we radiated solar essence, but we don't.
 
Infernals apparently appear to supernatural senses like arch devils on day release. Presumably he's sensed that and so judged us accordingly. He'll continue to sense that and so continue to do so.

Things would be different if we radiated solar essence, but we don't.
He isn't stupid. Prolonged exposure at close contact would allow him to deduce that we are something different. The moment our kingdom manifests, he will have to reevaluate his assumptions.
 
[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
 
I'm really torn on how to vote on this one. On the one hand, Broken Seeker really needs to die and the sooner that happens, the better off everyone will be. On the other, moving to attack, even if Izzy and Alex appear to be out of immediate danger, seems like a good way to get them killed via hyper violence or just black magic shenanigans. Feels like Molly would err on the side of protecting her friends in this instance.

[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends
 
[X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van

There is some hazard in tarnishing the value of our word, but others might look at it as Molly discarding the mask of civility when "her mortals" are threatened.

That aside, Broken Seeker is not the kind of creature we want to make common cause with. We mustn't forget that he has just kidnapped our closest friends and we really ought to make an example of him for that so that others don't get similar ideas.

We must show that while we will work with even very borderline creatures, like the white court, any attempt to threaten people merely because they are close to us can lead to only one outcome: Obliteration.
 
Who do you think is going to tell on us? Dad or Harry?
A naagloshii, a magical entity with the mass to distort local magical geography just by being present, has been driving around Chicago for the last couple hours.

You dont genuinely think any of this is going unobserved do you?
In Chicago? Which is like Fae central?
Where Dresden was able to raise an army of a quarter million Little Folk during Battle Grounds?

Never mind all the people with magical Thinker powers who have an interest in Molly right now.
The downside of this plan is that it assumes that Broken Seeker will keep thinking of us as kin. We feel similarly corrupted, but we are very much not its kin. In the Dresden Verse cosmology White God is probably the closest we have to kin. Well, him and Gaia, if she still exists. I am fairly sure that Broken Seeker (is BS abbreviation intentional, by the way?) hasn't spent long time in our direct company. He might get disillusioned quickly, and understand his mistake. We don't actually have acting abilities or disguise charms.
The enemy of my enemy is my enemies enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. Thats not always true, but it applies here.
Nicodemus describing himself and Dresden as being alike, and tossing him a Coin to attempt to recruit him, doesnt stop him trying to kill him. Grevane, then Cowl, both offering Dresden jobs and deals didnt prevent them trying to kill him.

And I still dont think that his calling us kin is anything more than half-sincere at best.
Its not like he can move to Chicago; every day away from his home base weakens him.
 
Who do you think is going to tell on us? Dad or Harry?
This is a setting where spirits living slightly to the left of the time stream will sell you gossip for whiskey and considerably more dangerous secrets for something with meat on it.

Telling the future is dicey, but properly witnessing something out in the open doesn't require someone to have "been there" when you were - or in the same dimension for that matter - unless wards* are involved. This isn't exactly top tier stuff either; Harry buys from people like this.

There's also the little folk for people if you want something more conventional.

* Those ancient sorcery no u defenses against spies are way more convenient than they look.
They seem to be living a pretty in spite of the fact that they have been in Chicago for decades and alive for who knows how long. I think that most of the wealth of supenatural beings comes from more than just being long-lived though that does help them keep it
Wouldn't attitude be part of this? If you're a minor weather spirit or whatever the things you count as wealth might not actually look much like a mortal's.

To the eye of its peers and in terms of its own creature comforts a house spirit who managed to score/form in a sprawling generational manor house might count itself richer than Croesus. It just wouldn't necessarily care about the exchange rate of memories/strongly linked inhabitants/properly invested territory or whatever to USD.
On the vote... Personally, I don't like and don't actually want to see a lot of naagloshii. Too corrupt for my tastes. However, I dislike hypocrisy even more. We already killed his follower, and i disliked that. Are we killing all others? And do we give up on redeeming Fallen Angels before even trying? This is a hard decision. I'll have to think about it for at least a night.

For now, I'll switch to killing it here and now. I'll probably oscillate a lot on this vote.
Context is a thing; we can only bite so much off and chew it properly.

It's not hypocritical to treat the threats before us as they are and take the opportunity for more as we can handle them as we can actually manage them.

[X] Feign agreement and prepare to attack as soon as Izzy and Alec are out of the van

There is some hazard in tarnishing the value of our word, but others might look at it as Molly discarding the mask of civility when "her mortals" are threatened.

That aside, Broken Seeker is not the kind of creature we want to make common cause with. We mustn't forget that he has just kidnapped our closest friends and we really ought to make an example of him for that so that others don't get similar ideas.

We must show that while we will work with even very borderline creatures, like the white court, any attempt to threaten people merely because they are close to us can lead to only one outcome: Obliteration.
This is a false dichotomy; we don't have to make an alliance to do anything here:
What of the insult already given to me and mine, one of my students a captive of petty parasites, another's death ripped unceremoniously from my hands as one would down a shot of absinthe and whiskey? Should I rejoice in the theft, find solace in the fact you did not kill more? Oh I know, I know they were not near as weighty in my thoughts as my guests are in yours..."
He is planning to put Izzy and Alec up in the park in some way that is painful and terrifying, but not crippling, by the standards of Broken Seeker's kind a show of goodwill, by any humane standard torture, an invitation to ante up and pay him something 'for his trouble'.
He's giving us what we pressed for because we won social combat, but he expects we pay off the operating costs of being here despite not demanding it. We'd just encourage him to fuck with us more if we don't.

If we want proper secrets we need proper coin. The basis of our prior conversation never implies working with him, he just wants a dinner date out of this.

Technically we could pay Broken Seeker by asking the crown what secret of the Holy People would make him laugh the most without actually empowering him and that'd work. A little close to the crown, but it illustrates the point. We just need something plausible and equal to what this guy thinks he blew from his entertainment budget while in town.

@DragonParadox am I in the right ballpark here?
 
VOTE
[X] In for the penny in for the pound, explicitly offer to help deal with Arianna Ortega in exchange for not hurting your friends


RATIONALE
Our goals are three-fold:
1) Saving our friends
2) Avoiding the collateral damage from engaging a full coven of lesser skinwalkers + their true naagloshii boss in the middle of a big city full of civilians, when their contingencies mig
3)Avoid a masquerade breach if at all possible

A fight would be nice, but it doesnt achieve either of those goals.


@DragonParadox
Point of Information:
Molly may or may not know this yet IC, depending on what Bob has told her about Dresden's previous cases. If she doesnt, she'll know as soon as she talks to Dresden.

This is an Accords breach by Ortega. A big one.

In Death Masks, the B-plot was that Arianna Ortega's husband Duke Paul Ortega came to Chicago and challenged Dresden to a duel where the terms were that if Dresden won, the Red Court would stay out of Chicago.
Citation:
Ortega smiled, showing teeth. Just regular teeth, no long canines or anything. The vampires of the Red Court look human-right up until they turn into something out of a nightmare. "The point, Dresden, is that the war is unprofitable, undesirable. You are the symbolic cause of it to my people, and the point of contention between us and your own White Council. Once you are slain, the Council will accept peace overtures, as will the Court."
"So you're asking me to lay down and die? That's not much of an offer. You really need to read that book."
"I'm making you an offer. Face me in single combat, Dresden."
I didn't quite laugh at him. "Why the hell should I do that?"
His eyes were expressionless. "Because if you do it would mean that the warriors I have brought to town with me will not be forced to target your friends and allies. That the mortal assassins we have retained will not need to receive their final confirmations to kill a number of clients who have hired you in the past five years. I'm sure I need not mention names."
Fear and anger had been about to settle down, but they came surging back again. "There's no reason for that," I said. "If your war is with me, keep it with me."
"Gladly," Ortega said. "I do not approve of such tactics. Face me under the dueling laws in the Accords."
"And after I kill you, what?" I said. I didn't know if I could kill him, but there was no reason to let him think I wasn't confident about it. "The next hotshot Red Duke does the same thing?"
"Defeat me, and the Court has agreed that this city will become neutral territory. That those living in it, including yourself and your friends and associates, will be free of the threat of attack so long as they are in it."
I stared hard at him for a moment. "Chicago-blanca, eh?"
He quirked a puzzled eyebrow at me.
"Never mind. After your time." I looked away from him, and licked sweat from my upper lip. A stagehand came by with a couple of bottled waters, and passed them to Ortega and to me. I took a drink. The pressure of the spell made flickering colored dots float across my vision.
"You're stupid to fight me," I said. "Even if you kill me, my death curse would fall on you."
He shrugged. "I am not as important as the whole of the Court. I will take that risk."
Hell's bells. Dedicated, honorable, courageous, self-sacrificial loonies are absolutely the worst people in the world to go up against. I tried one last dodge, hoping it might pay off. "I'd have to have it in writing. The Council gets a copy too. I want this all recognized, official under the Accords."
"That done, you will agree to the duel?"
I took a deep breath. The last thing I wanted to do was square off against another supernatural nasty. Vampires scared me. They were strong and way too fast, and had an enormous yuck factor. Their saliva was an addictive narcotic, and I'd been exposed to it enough to make me twitch once in a while, wondering what it would be like to get another hit.
I barely went outside after dark these days, specifically because I didn't want to encounter any more vampires. A duel would mean a fair fight, and I hate fair fights. In the words of a murderous Faerie Queen, they're too easy to lose.
Of course, if I didn't agree to Ortega's offer, I'd be fighting him anyway, probably at a time and place of his choosing-and I had the feeling that Ortega wasn't going to show the arrogance and overconfidence I'd seen in other vampires. Something about him said that so long as I wasn't breathing, he wouldn't care much how it happened. Not only that, but I believed that he would start in on the people I cared about if he couldn't have me.
I mean, come on. It was cliche villainy at its worst.
And an undeniably effective lever.
I'd like to say that I carefully weighed all the factors, reasoned my way to a levelheaded conclusion, and made a rational decision to take a calculated risk, but I didn't. The truth is, I thought of Ortega and company doing harm to some of the people I cared about, and suddenly felt angry enough to start in on him right there. I faced him, eyes narrowed, and didn't bother to hold the anger in check. The suppression spell began to crack, and I didn't bother to keep it going. The spell shattered, and the buildup of wild energy rushed silently and invisibly over the studio.
There was a cough of static from the speakers on the stage before they died with loud pops. The floodlights overhead suddenly burst with flashes of brilliance and clouds of sparks that fell down over everyone on the stage. One of the two surviving cameras exploded into fire, bluish flames rising up from out of the casing, and heavy power outlets along the walls started spitting orange and green sparks. Larry Fowler yelped and leapt up into the air, batting at his belt before pitching a smoldering cell phone to the floor. The lights died, and people started screaming in startled panic.
Ortega, lit only by the falling sparks, looked grim and somehow eager, shadows dancing over his features, his eyes huge and dark.
"Fine," I said. "Get it to me in writing and you've got a deal."
The emergency lights came up, fire alarms started whooping, and people started stumbling toward exits. Ortega smiled, all teeth, and glided off the stage, vanishing into the wings.
Its an agreement in writing, witnessed under the Accords and auspices of the Archive.
Dresden won even with Ortega attempting to cheat, and the Reds were obliged to stay of Chicago until Changes, when they decided to break every rule and agreement they were party to.

Thats why the White Council considered Chicago relatively safe during the war.

Arianna Ortega hiring an assassin to operate in Chicago is a straight up breach of Mab's Accords that Mab is legally entitled to enforce, at a time that Mab is finishing up a purge of her house.
Really horrible timing for the Reds to fuck around and find out.

Oh, and Mab, Maeve and the Leanansidhe already have scores to settle with the Reds; it was a Red Court gift that poisoned Lea and Maeve with Nemesis, at a Red Court affair. Bianca St Claire was a blood child and vassal of the Ortegas.
Thats in addition to the Reds bringing Outsiders into Faerie.

The question is now whether Molly gets her first, or Mab/Maeve/Lea does, or the Archive does.
Molly can call her out under the duelling provisions of the Accords, just like her husband called Dresden.
And then paint her innards all across the ground.
 
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This is a false dichotomy; we don't have to make an alliance to do anything here:

Even if it's not an explicit alliance, he's still getting something he wants from us: getting revenge on someone who bound him.

It feels pretty disrespectful for us to let our friends come to harm like this, because we know Broken Seeker will hurt them, just not permanently.

Plus letting a supernatural murder god just keep on doing his thing for some nebulous future greater good does not sit well with me. We can put the Red Court on our shit list and go after them all on our own.
 
We really need to get NSS so we can stop worrying about how some act might potentially impact our reputation.
 
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