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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
It isnt wasteful.
The Occult Excellency is for boosting our Hellscry Chakra. I quote:
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I know how the mechanics work. It's wasteful because we have other concerns at the moment. The cost is higher than the reward in the context of the many other things competing for the same resources in the immediate future.

And really, most of the time you're not allowed to just keep rerolling the same thing till you get the result you like anyway.

Supposing we can we would see more, but you haven't demonstrated that we need to know this information right now and that the specific benefit from getting the additional insight past the crown question is a critical aspect of it.

When we go inside and face Lara on her A-game with potentially dozens of interested elders of various tiers having one mote to spend before we have to trigger a flare will be a problem.

uju32 said:
.....
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Is reading his aura a second time going to clue is in any further than a crown question would? I don't really think so. We know he's weird and potentially a problem. Either the crown tells us something specific we can work with in this context or it doesn't.

Additional insight into his mood and nature isn't without value, but the additional benefits don't outweigh the immediate issues that come from investing all but one of our concealable motes for a scene into one guy.

uju32 said:
We also have more recent text a couple updates ago that they have been using murder as an initiation rite.
So retcon.
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We have speculation that they all have because one was in the process of it, that's not the same. It's possible they were murdering random mortals they were tricked into thinking were talents for the same effect and more subtlety, committing other crimes, that the Ants were a resource stolen from another vamp recently and intended for some other purpose, or any of a dozen other options.

Even if that's not the case the demonstrated uncertainty about the background means we can't just assume this AU is defaulting to canon details anywhere we can't prove a change.

uju32 said:
Intrigue yes. Secrets less so, especially when pretty much every human minion
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Bull. The vamps themselves are here. I'd bet on each elder having a whole suite of interesting supernatural secrets on all sorts of topics. Everything from politics to deep supernatural lore to deals with various entities they've made over the centuries.

The white king's whole build up shouldn't be taken as a unique effort, he was just better at the same game every elder is trying to play to maximize their power.

uju32 said:
Most Dresdenverse spirits can read auras to greater or lesser extent.
Ulsharavas could read auras. Bob can read auras.
The Sight among other things, interprets auras, and Mab sure as hell knows that Molly was a wizard-tier before Exalting.

You are assuming a degree of incompetence on the part of Mab at a diplomatic meeting she called for that I find improbable.
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She also knows the sight has consequences to use, so if Mab benchmarked Molly on what a mortal can do then she'd be expecting some wariness to just opening up with it.

With aura sight being common she might simply not consider it as anything particularly exposing. It's like being good at reading facial expressions, maybe she was even doing the same thing to us without our notice or ability to conceal things from her.

Mab's key issue with us has been her difficulty in placing what Molly can do since it keeps growing and changing. She had basically zero reason to believe that we could use aura sight, or more critically that Molly could do stuff like super boost it with her occult excellency and turn into the auric equivalent of a Sherlock Holmes style cold reader.

So she comes in max social but without spending the energy or focus necessary to fool a competency she wasn't aware of. Mab is good, one of the best even, but she isn't infallible.

This combination of unknowable information, competing demands for resources, and emotionally compromising flash points is the exact sort of thing that would make her slip up.

Which it's worth noting did exactly nothing to stop her from profiting handsomely from that exchange. Even with the favors she still got critical pieces back, to deal a small but lasting wound to Nemesis, a nominal reset on her relationship with Molly with the potential for future deals, and point blank observation of how Molly works.

That last bit is critical, because now that we're talking about it we actually have zero ability to defend against super senses and limited ability to detect their use. She probably was scanning at maximum sensitivity the entire time we were talking to her.

Pretty bold to call it incompetence when she succeeded beyond her likely baseline goals despite things she couldn't have been aware of flipping the table.

Edit: error
 
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BronzeTongue said:
Additional insight into his mood and nature isn't without value, but the additional benefits don't outweigh the immediate issues that come from investing all but one of our concealable motes for a scene into one guy.
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That's prob true.
At this point I'm just prioritising the likley Outsider juiced vamp over everyone else. I don't think its a bad presedent to drop everything if we think Outsiders are involved. Admitedly, it may bite us in the ass... Tbh I think its more important than our original goal.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Additional insight into his mood and nature isn't without value, but the additional benefits don't outweigh the immediate issues that come from investing all but one of our concealable motes for a scene into one guy.
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We already spent one on Hellscry.

Occult excellency would be #2.

Crown would be #3.

Which is not "all but one of our concealable motes", but "all of them".

With the fourth we flare our anima.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I know how the mechanics work. It's wasteful because we have other concerns at the moment. The cost is higher than the reward in the context of the many other things competing for the same resources in the immediate future.

And really, most of the time you're not allowed to just keep rerolling the same thing till you get the result you like anyway.
Supposing we can we would see more, but you haven't demonstrated that we need to know this information right now and that the specific benefit from getting the additional insight past the crown question is a critical aspect of it.

When we go inside and face Lara on her A-game with potentially dozens of interested elders of various tiers having one mote to spend before we have to trigger a flare will be a problem.
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Its not wasteful because that information is directly relevant to the current situation.

We've tried this before, and we know what to expect.
When we negotiated our non-aggression pact with Lara, we didnt burn Essence to boost our social there either, and Lara was rolling 9 dice for Manipulation + Expression.

Embeddable Roll Result lhrn6h2r · Rolz

rolz.org rolz.org
Leinth Skavis was rolling 8 dice during his attempt to Intimidate Molly at their first meeting.

Embeddable Roll Result ld4n1m6y · Rolz

rolz.org rolz.org

Social diplomacy against Whampire Elders wont kill us; even without spending any Essence, we're still rolling 10 dice with a stunt and our social abilities are all Key abilities.
Potentially getting jumped by a renegade Whampire mainlining Outsider juice and his friends? Can.

Or at least destroy stuff and people we might want to keep intact.
BronzeTongue said:
Bull. The vamps themselves are here. I'd bet on each elder having a whole suite of interesting supernatural secrets on all sorts of topics. Everything from politics to deep supernatural lore to deals with various entities they've made over the centuries.

The white king's whole build up shouldn't be taken as a unique effort, he was just better at the same game every elder is trying to play to maximize their power.
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Bull.

It took no time at all for the rest of the White Court to figure out that Lara was now running her father as an asset. Thomas heard about Whampire plans to murder a bunch of minor talents even when he was the outcast black sheep of House Raith, and Lara had to formally order him not to tell Dresden, making him use a workaround that allowed Lara to truthfully say it wasnt her or a Raith that alerted the White Council.

The White Court setup is not built to keep secrets from those in the circle.
BronzeTongue said:
She also knows the sight has consequences to use, so if Mab benchmarked Molly on what a mortal can do then she'd be expecting some wariness to just opening up with it. With aura sight being common she might simply not consider it as anything particularly exposing. It's like being good at reading facial expressions, maybe she was even doing the same thing to us without our notice or ability to conceal things from her.

Mab's key issue with us has been her difficulty in placing what Molly can do since it keeps growing and changing. She had basically zero reason to believe that we could use aura sight, or more critically that Molly could do stuff like super boost it with her occult excellency and turn into the auric equivalent of a Sherlock Holmes style cold reader.

Ao she comes in max social but without spending the energy or focus necessary to fool a competency she wasn't aware of. Mab is good, one of the best even, but she isn't infallible. This combination of unknowable information, competing demands for resources, and emotionally compromising flash points is the exact sort of thing that would make her slip up.

Which it's worth noting did exactly nothing to stop her from profiting handsomely from that exchange. Even with the favors she still got critical pieces back, to deal a small but lasting wound to Nemesis, a nominal reset on her relationship with Molly with the potential for future deals, and point blank observation of how Molly works.

That last bit is critical, because now that we're talking about it we actually have zero ability to defend against super senses and limited ability to detect their use. She probably was scanning at maximum sensitivity the entire time we were talking to her.

Pretty bold to call it incompetence when she succeeded beyond her likely baseline goals despite things she couldn't have been aware of flipping the table.
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1)Mab knows the Sight is less of an issue for the strong willed, or the experienced; Dresden fought his duel with Arianna Ortega at Chitchen Itza, with the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night in attendance, with the Sight open. And we taught Dresden ways to anchor yourself, ways that used to be taught by wizards.

Ways that Mab herself would know just by running around this long and being a peer of Odin, who taught the first Merlin.

She also has deep lore of the Exalted and the world Before, as explicitly noted in our meeting with her.
She would over-prepare rather than assume that nothing matters; after all, she's been around long enough to have some idea what information other supernaturals can get from your aura.



2)There's a difference between luck and good planning.
She demonstrated good planning in being proactive about arranging a meeting, and an amicable one. Without that setup, nothing that came of the meeting would have happened in the first place.

But none of what came of that meeting was of her planning and power; that was just good fortune.



3)If she took no measures to obscure her aura during a diplomatic negotiation, despite knowing that everyone from White Court Vampires with Auspex to Jade Court Vampires with Chi'uh M'uh to just bogstandard spirits like Bob and Ulsharavas?
Then, yes, it would be incompetence, and a failure to take minimum preparations for a high stakes negotiation.

Mab doesnt do that. At least as far as has been demonstrated in canon.
 
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BoredMan said:
That's prob true.
At this point I'm just prioritising the likley Outsider juiced vamp over everyone else. I don't think its a bad presedent to drop everything if we think Outsiders are involved. Admitedly, it may bite us in the ass... Tbh I think its more important than our original goal.
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No, you're prioritizing the potentially outsider infested vamp in front of us. The last major infection we saw of a significant supernatural power had three core nemesis plants.

It's possible this guy isn't infected yet and that whoever got him is still running around, or that he is infected and those he passed it to are also still running around. Nemesis is a like a cockroach infestation that way.

The most likely source of actionable information on this axis is the crown. If it doesn't pull through for us here then HC is a tenuous bet at best and taking it hampers our ability to do anything about the others without even giving us a clue who they might be.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No, you're prioritizing the potentially outsider infested vamp in front of us. The last major infection we saw of a significant supernatural power had three core nemesis plants.

It's possible this guy isn't infected yet and that whoever got him is still running around, or that he is infected and those he passed it to are also still running around. Nemesis is a like a cockroach infestation that way.

The most likely source of actionable information on this axis is the crown. If it doesn't pull through for us here then HC is a tenuous bet at best and taking it hampers our ability to do anything about the others without even giving us a clue who they might be.
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Point of correction:
Nemesis =/=Outsider.
All Nemesis possessions are Outsider possessions, but not all Outsider possessions are Nemesis possessions.

Vittorio Malvora was possessed by an Outsider. Thats all we know from canon.
No mention was made of Nemesis.
 
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Normally I'm wary of flaring our anima, since we're most often in situations where we justifiably wish to keep it hidden, but upon further thought, I don't think I will mind too much if we need to spend enough Essence later on during the party to unfurl the banner.

If there was ever a place it would be appropriate for such a display, we're standing in it, with a quite suitable audience. When the time comes, if it does, we just need to lean into it properly.

Maybe with a well worded stunt, a good one liner, and some supernatural intimidation, we can give everyone just the right impression of us.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jul 4, 2023 at 1:42 PM, finished with 92 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X]Plan Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: What secrets is the owner/wearer of these items hiding?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him.
    [x] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    -[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X] Plan Under the Gun
    -[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
    --[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    —-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X]Plan Focused Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him. Moving to a nearby table to pick up a cup of white wine, you mask the direction of your intense stare by pretending to inspect it to the light.
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LightLan said:
We already spent one on Hellscry.

Occult excellency would be #2.

Crown would be #3.

Which is not "all but one of our concealable motes", but "all of them".

With the fourth we flare our anima.
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DragonParadox said:
Keep in mind that will put you within a single mote of anima flaring, which may come with its own social consequences (your anima is made of flaming eyes, it is not subtle).
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I was going off of this, but you're right I was misreading.

Which makes this even more critical, we have no room to do anything new and run out of our only current excellency in maybe a few more minutes.
uju32 said:
s not wasteful because that information is directly relevant to the current situation.

We've tried this before, and we know what to expect.
When we negotiated our non-aggression pact with Lara, we didnt burn Essence to boost our social there either, and Lara was rolling 9 dice for Manipulation + Expression.
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That was a back alley meeting, this is a formal event where screwing with each other outside of the most direct methods is expected. It's also one where at least some elders arrived looking for a show.

You're basically betting on no one present burning blood points for social half of the party.

The information you want has some relevance, but the crown gets what we might need even if it doesn't get us everything. The information isn't useless, but functionally being out of motes until we're willing to flare is way too high a cost.
uju32 said:
Bull.

It took no time at all for the rest of the White Court to figure out that Lara was now running her father as an asset. Thomas heard about Whampire plans to murder a bunch of minor talents even when he was the outcast black sheep of House Raith, and Lara had to formally order him not to tell Dresden, making him use a.

The White Court setup is not built to keep secrets from those in the circle.
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What are you talking about?

Some things being picked up on, like influence that has to leave traces to be used, isn't the same as no one in the intrigue faction being able to keep secrets.

Examples being stuff like the white king's antimagic deal, or the plot we're involved in right now. Lara wasn't aware until we brought it to her.

The personal resources and efforts of advancement among the elders are probably the regular hotbed of internecine conflict in the court. Some things would be known, but only people losing hard would have their full hand revealed.

In any case they're certainly hidden from us, and therefore have the same impact on our battle space.
uju32 said:
She would over-prepare rather than assume that nothing matters; after all, she's been around long enough to have some idea what information other supernaturals can get from your aura.
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Suggesting that there's no explanation for Mab not doing something other than incompetence she'd never display or it being impossible to actually do what Vittorio just did without outsider rule breaking is making a number of very strong assertions on the basis of very specious assumptions and reputation.

There are a lot of unknowns around what Mab knew at the time, what her precise abilities are, what the standard usually is for this ability in the supernatural community, Mab's habitual preparations for that sort of meeting, and her capacity for error under pressure.

Mab isn't perfect, and it's easy to call something basic when you know everything already and can see the effects.

You've already demonstrably overestimated what HC can do, I'm not sure why we should take the high water mark on that and Mab's abilities as a reason to freak out when there are reasonable alternatives in the base mechanics as @Artemis1992 has pointed out.
uju32 said:
2)There's a difference between luck and good planning.
She demonstrated good planning in being proactive about arranging a meeting, and an amicable one. Without that setup, nothing that came of the meeting would have happened in the first place.

But none of what came of that meeting was of her planning and power; that was just good fortune
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Luck nothing. The world doesn't hand things to anyone, if you aren't prepared to use your good luck then the opportunity will just get wasted. Her management of that influenced how it went.

uju32 said:
Then, yes, it would be incompetence, and a failure to take minimum preparations for a high stakes negotiation.
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She wasn't meeting any of those and there are limits to what she could invest in at any point in the meeting. If she had been spying she'd have "known" that Molly has shit senses. Which did (and still sort of does) until we bought the charm.

It's worth noting that her auric poker face only slipped useful information on the most sensitive of things. Things that we couldn't have known to exploit without several lucky breaks and bullshit information powers. Maybe her plan was basically to have a good poker face. Outside of those specific weak points it would have worked too; nothing else we got actually mattered.


There's too much negative space here to make strong assertions about what happened on this front.
uju32 said:
Point of correction:
Nemesis =/=Outsider.
All Nemesis possessions are Outsider possessions, but not all Outsider possessions are Nemesis possessions.

Vittorio Malvora was possessed by an Outsider. Thats all we know from canon.
No mention was made of Nemesis.
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Nemesis is the outsider tool for this job, so it was probably it. The whole point of that knight is that doing it any other way is either functionally impossible or too difficult to be worth it.

Even if it for some reason isn't Nemesis the same rule about outsider infection applies. One of their opening moves is to spread as much as they dare to so their plots can reach further and soak losses more easily.
 
About Mechanics, what could a Wizard do to block Auravision?

They could most certainly do it, because by default everything is possible for a Wizard with enough time trying to solve a specific problem.

Technically blocking Aura-sight is only a Mind 1 effect, clearly mentioned in the Sphere-description in M20.
I guess if you wanted to houserule that masking your very nature as a Mage is supposed to be harder, you could add some Prime to block your magic from showing?

Point is, for a Wizard it would be very easy to hinder our Sight, though not to full bloc it, since Wizards don't really deal in absolute effects, unlike Exalted.
Something like this, reducing our successes, would be right up their alley mechanically.

So rather than assume high-end power, maybe Vito here is either a Talent or has gotten a mental shield item or long-lasting spell from a Wizard?
 
OK this time the vote is actually very close...
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 4, 2023 at 2:46 PM, finished with 95 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X]Plan Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: What secrets is the owner/wearer of these items hiding?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him.
    [x] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    -[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X] Plan Under the Gun
    -[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
    --[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    —-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X]Plan Focused Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him. Moving to a nearby table to pick up a cup of white wine, you mask the direction of your intense stare by pretending to inspect it to the light.
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...and it is also 9:47 PM for me and 30 Degrees Celsius, which is for the record both insane and not really conductive to writing well so I think I am going to leave this until the hopefully less sweltering morning.

Hope you guys do not mind
 
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BronzeTongue said:
That was a back alley meeting, this is a formal event where screwing with each other outside of the most direct methods is expected. It's also one where at least some elders arrived looking for a show.
You're basically betting on no one present burning blood points for social half of the party.

The information you want has some relevance, but the crown gets what we might need even if it doesn't get us everything. The information isn't useless, but functionally being out of motes until we're willing to flare is way too high a cost.
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It was a formal, if small, diplomatic summit between the de facto White Queen, an Infernal Exalt and an Exigent of Death with a binding non-aggression pact negotiated, and the transfer of sensitive intelligence information.
The fact that it did not have fancy entourages and a big arena doesnt make it any less of a big deal.


This is a social event, not a diplomatic negotiation.
We are under no obligation to make any agreements here, can choose to walk away at will, or can burn power and glow if it becomes that important.


The Crown gets us ONE secret. And there's no guarantee that it tells us about whatever he's hiding.
This dude almost successfully Itachi'd the entire White Court's leadership in canon, and did Itachi his own House's nobility; treating him as a significant threat instead of a throwaway thug has the potential to save us future pain.

BronzeTongue said:
What are you talking about?
Some things being picked up on, like influence that has to leave traces to be used, isn't the same as no one in the intrigue faction being able to keep secrets.

Examples being stuff like the white king's antimagic deal, or the plot we're involved in right now. Lara wasn't aware until we brought it to her. The personal resources and efforts of advancement among the elders are probably the regular hotbed of internecine conflict in the court. Some things would be known, but only people losing hard would have their full hand revealed.

In any case they're certainly hidden from us, and therefore have the same impact on our battle space.
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The White King's antimagic immunity was news to Dresden; nobody said it was a secret to the rest of the White Court.

The current plot apparently literally just popped off; Lara did not have time to learn about it before we reported it. Personal advancement among elders is the one thing that might see , and even that is unlikely due to the social pressures that mandate displays of personal power to deter challenges and conflict in the Byzantine politicking of the

The two secrets I can swear to that was kept was Maggie LeFay's deathcurse(because only one living person knew about it) and Dresden's blood relationship with Thomas.

BronzeTongue said:
Suggesting that there's no explanation for Mab not doing something other than incompetence she'd never display or it being impossible to actually do what Vittorio just did without outsider rule breaking is making a number of very strong assertions on the basis of very specious assumptions and reputation.

There are a lot of unknowns around what Mab knew at the time, what her precise abilities are, what the standard usually is for this ability in the supernatural community, Mab's habitual preparations for that sort of meeting, and her capacity for error under pressure.

Mab isn't perfect, and it's easy to call something basic when you know everything already and can see the effects.

You've already demonstrably overestimated what HC can do, I'm not sure why we should take the high water mark on that and Mab's abilities as a reason to freak out when there are reasonable alternatives in the base mechanics as @Artemis1992 has pointed out.
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Strongly disagree.

If Dresden went to a scheduled duel and failed to take his trenchcoat or blasting rod with him, I would also classify it in the same category of grotesquely underestimating an opponent unless he could provide strong evidence otherwise.
The only people who gets to claim mysterious ways for this sort of thing are the Knights.


Mab is most definitely not perfect. But Mab is a general fighting a war where the disposition of the commanders is critical intelligence, and where enemy agents can slip even into her court. It would be high malfeasance if Mab couldnt and didnt routinely keep her aura shielded against anything short of a wizard's Sight(because wizards are cheating bastards who cheat.)

BronzeTongue said:
She wasn't meeting any of those and there are limits to what she could invest in at any point in the meeting. If she had been spying she'd have "known" that Molly has shit senses. Which did (and still sort of does) until we bought the charm.

It's worth noting that her auric poker face only slipped useful information on the most sensitive of things. Things that we couldn't have known to exploit without several lucky breaks and bullshit information powers. Maybe her plan was basically to have a good poker face. Outside of those specific weak points it would have worked too; nothing else we got actually mattered.

There's too much negative space here to make strong assertions about what happened on this front.
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-That meeting was scheduled three months ago. Three months of preptime
Yes, Mab is, or rather was, shorthanded, but not so much that she didnt have the spare time to put the thought to preparing a gift.
Nor is there any evidence in canon or this AU so far that Mab had detectable limits to what power she could invest in a meeting.


-Molly's senses, and the sensory charms available to her, arent Obvious-tagged.
Mab has no reason to assume Molly has shit senses when she's paying attention, and multiple reasons to suspect that Molly simply has a very good pokerface. After all, Molly managed to come to a draw with her on their first meeting.


-No, thats not true. From the very first meeting with Mab, we have displayed knowledge and the ability to get it beyond the ordinary; Mab literally walked in to an invocation ritual involving a Neverborn that Molly scrawled into the floor.
And Mab knows damn well by now of Molly's role in resolving the Red Room Murders; Old Man Mathews is her new Eldest Ankou.

And thats not counting the knowledge from Before.

She wasnt trying to commit Molly to the war at the Gates on a whim; she has every reason to know or suspect Molly has Power, in a setting where knowledge is power. She may not know about the Crown specifically(in fact, she probably doesnt), but thats not the same as assuming she knows shit.
 
uju32 said:
2) He's hiding things.
There's no passive effect in the Dresden Files that obscures your own soul from observation, and from what I understand of VTM, you actually need to actively choose to learn those Advanced Discipline powers; they dont spontaneously pop up.

The interesting part is that he cant possibly have this up for Molly, since Molly only arrived on the scene less than half a year ago. Which suggests this was designed to hide him from other vampires, as well as other supernaturals.
Maybe wizards as well
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My point is that "this was designed to hide" is a speculation. The hiding might be a side-effect of the intended function, such as empowerment. Or an outsider version of Mercy in Servitude. Or a process of metamorphosis into something that's not a whampire. Or anything else, really.
 
Nemonowan said:
Sounds like a better idea at this point

[x] BronzeTongue
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1)We are repeating it because the first time didnt get through whatever defenses the guy has.
To reiterate what I said earlier, we already tried the cheap way.

We activated Hellscry Chakra and rolled 9 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1) for 11 successes.
Vittorio rolled 8 dice as a defence and got 7 successes. That depleted our successes so we only got 4 threshold successes.
The result was, and I quote:
The aura you can see wrapped around him proves as oily as his words, a thing half seen and blurry, not that you are entirely sure you want to see deeper. The ruby-red of lust spreads and pools shot through with lines of green flame wiggling like maggots in flesh, obsession. Strangest of all their heads burn... gold. Even having never seen the color with this sight before you instinctively know it to be the fruit of deep insight, spiritual insight, revelation. To see it bloom from such unwholesome stock makes your stomach clench, to see it gleam in eyes that are so utterly fixed upon you makes you want to reconsider bowling him over.
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The sentence use is very clear that there is more to see, but we didnt get enough threshold successes to see it.
The Occult Excellency is supposed to blow through whatever is obscuring our sight so we can see clearly; Hellscry Chakra goes from rolling 9 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1) to rolling 17 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1 + Excellency 8).

This dude almost killed everyone in canon in White Night; I provided the quote upthread.
We shouldnt let him run around behind us without trying to see through whatever effect is hiding the details of his aura.
2)This isnt a public zone, its a private party on the Raith Estate where all the guests are vampires or human minions.
Essentially everyone here is already clued in to the supernatural.
We dont actually have to explain why we glow if we have to glow.

Furthermore, we intend to flare our anima anyway when the fighting starts anyway.

3)We arent likely to need to flare anima for social anyway.

We have seen the dice pools of some of the bigwigs. Lara Raith has a social dice pool of 9 before Disciplines. Leinth Skavis, who is at least a thousand years old, has a social dice pool of 8 before Disciplines. Molly having a dicepool of 8-10 puts her in the same range, and her social being Key Abilities allows her to level the field and more.

Remember that in our first summit with Lara, we didnt burn any Essence for that meeting.
We were able to match her with just a scenelong buff, and the only Essence spent in the scene went to running Perception buffs for spies and to asking Crown questions.
Yog said:
My point is that "this was designed to hide" is a speculation. The hiding might be a side-effect of the intended function, such as empowerment. Or an outsider version of Mercy in Servitude. Or a process of metamorphosis into something that's not a whampire. Or anything else, really.
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If you are that strict?
Then fair enough, yes, there is no explicit evidence that its a hiding effect.
The evidence strongly suggests it, but there is no explicit statement yet.

Thats my two cents, at least.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jul 4, 2023 at 6:58 PM, finished with 101 posts and 17 votes.
  • [x] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    -[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X] Plan Under the Gun
    -[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
    --[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    —-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X]Plan Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: What secrets is the owner/wearer of these items hiding?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him.
    [X]Plan Focused Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him. Moving to a nearby table to pick up a cup of white wine, you mask the direction of your intense stare by pretending to inspect it to the light.
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uju32 said:
The Crown gets us ONE secret. And there's no guarantee that it tells us about whatever he's hiding.
This dude almost successfully Itachi'd the entire White Court's leadership in canon, and did Itachi his own House's nobility; treating him as a significant threat instead of a throwaway thug has the potential to save us future pain.
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Using the crown on him is treating him with greater seriousness. Hellscry Chakra isn't guaranteed to actually give us something useful beyond what the crown will.

We're about to run into a significant fraction of the white court's serious players with no excellencies or ability to toggle anything unless we have a good excuse to flare. The scene lasts for the first half of the event, which is likely to be a significant period of time.

Vittorio is dangerous, but he isn't a novel source of danger nor more dangerous than everything else we need to deal with cumulatively between now and the fight.

uju32 said:
The White King's antimagic immunity was news to Dresden; nobody said it was a secret to the rest of the White Court.

The current plot apparently literally just popped off; Lara did not have time to learn about it before we reported it. Personal advancement among elders is the one thing that might see , and even that is unlikely due to the social pressures that mandate displays of personal power to deter challenges and conflict in the Byzantine politicking of the

The two secrets I can swear to that was kept was Maggie LeFay's deathcurse(because only one living person knew about it) and Dresden's blood relationship with Thomas.
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You're arguing against secrets existing in the intrigue focused vampire faction, with a well known history of internecine conflict between its noble houses*, doesn't keep internal secrets?

That individual elders don't have tricks kept up their sleeves and side gigs picked up over centuries of operation that they keep for a rainy day? Public displays are one thing, but that doesn't mean you need to show your full hand or that people will respect you if you can't play the game.

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

In canon this plot ran in multiple cities and made it all the way to the seat of house Raith before before a third party had to tell Lara about it. That didn't happen here but it clearly demonstrates a capacity for this sort of thing even if the alternative wasn't completely nonsensical.

In any case we're in Dresden's position here. Even if the white court knows something we're unlikely to be aware of it. So their abilities are equally unknown and potentially critical threats. Up to and including a set of people with the same Outsider resources Vittorio may have.


* Each with clear independent resource bases at that.
uju32 said:
Mab is most definitely not perfect. But Mab is a general fighting a war where the disposition of the commanders is critical intelligence, and where enemy agents can slip even into her court. It would be high malfeasance if Mab couldnt and didnt routinely keep her aura shielded against anything short of a wizard's Sight(because wizards are cheating bastards who cheat.)
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I don't buy it, you're making significant assumptions about basically everyone's abilities and calling anyone who doesn't meet your exact standards spectacularly incompetent.

The more likely conclusion from the data in front of us isn't that Mab is an idiot or that HC is an impossible super power you need to cheat to block. It's that you're wrong about one of your many assertions because of something we don't know or you're incorrect in your assumptions about.

uju32 said:
-No, thats not true. From the very first meeting with Mab, we have displayed knowledge and the ability to get it beyond the ordinary; Mab literally walked in to an invocation ritual involving a Neverborn that Molly scrawled into the floor.
And Mab knows damn well by now of Molly's role in resolving the Red Room Murders; Old Man Mathews is her new Eldest Ankou
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We never demonstrated the ability to pick local information up before the meeting. Having a big lore library isn't the same as being a high awareness monster.

Supernatural senses using this vector seem rarer than you're implying unless you're messing with nevernever spirits or absolute effects. That's probably a factor her too.

Mab knows we had Harry around for that, and supernatural senses aren't the same as information gathering in terms of what we'd demonstrated by that point.

It seems likely to me that this is effectively one of countless minor weird sensory powers instead of a highly common super useful gimmick used across the spectrum.

On the resources thing; personal power isn't something that grows over night for most people.

Unless she has some mindblank rings in her back pocket she probably had to work within some fixed pool of supernatural powers. Some of which may have had requirements limited her options. Like how almost all of our stealth charms fail when we flare.

This is the sort of stuff I'm talking about when I say you're make strong claims on baseless assumptions.

You can't actually prove anything about what she knew, what most other people actually can do mechanically in the fusion setting, what the rules on Mab's powers are, or what her resource pool looks like.

Strong assertions made missing critical information like that should be treated with skepticism.
uju32 said:
we already tried the cheap way.
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Then the cost went up.

We got something useful and are taking a jab at the critical piece we might be missing. Taking the additional cost trades our ability do anything subtle for half of a major event before we even get past the front door.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Using the crown on him is treating him with greater seriousness. Hellscry Chakra isn't guaranteed to actually give us something useful beyond what the crown will.

We're about to run into a significant fraction of the white court's serious players with no excellencies or ability to toggle anything unless we have a good excuse to flare. The scene lasts for the first half of the event, which is likely to be a significant period of time.

Vittorio is dangerous, but he isn't a novel source of danger nor more dangerous than everything else we need to deal with cumulatively between now and the fight.
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1) Hellscry Chakra has already given us something useful with regards to whatever infernal enlightenment he has, and is explicitly indicating there's more to give here.

2)We actually did a full diplomatic negotiation and treaty agreement with Lara Raith, White Queen, without any Excellencies whatsoever.A social meeting is not actually an issue, especially with Perception buffs running.
Harry Dresden has done this with less.

3)Vito is Cowl's apprentice, and almost decapitated the entire White Court in canon.
He did successfully decapitate House Malvora and House Skavis. Dresden literally blew his forearm off with a shotgun, and it didnt break his concentration on the spell he was holding.

You're absolutely underestimating him and the threat he poses in favor of worrying about social encounters with Whampires.
BronzeTongue said:
I don't buy it, you're making significant assumptions about basically everyone's abilities and calling anyone who doesn't meet your exact standards spectacularly incompetent.

The more likely conclusion from the data in front of us isn't that Mab is an idiot or that HC is an impossible super power you need to cheat to block. It's that you're wrong about one of your many assertions because of something we don't know or you're incorrect in your assumptions about.
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They have been fighting a war against Outsiders for at least a couple thousand years.
And we absolutely know that a lot of the serious Players are aware of things like Nemesis; its explicitly stated in canon that Donald Morgan knew about Nemesis and some of its capabilities, and was writing to Luccio as if she knew as well.

Mab demonstrably knows about Outsider infiltration as a tool for intelligence gathering.

Her/Their success presupposes a set of precautions in order to limit personal vulnerability.
Especially after, in this AU, some lord with delusions of grandeur used the help of Outsiders to almost blow up both the Winter and Summer Courts simultaneously by killing and corrupting their Queens.

Which is how Mab came to power.

===
We both agree that Mab is not an idiot.
But the more likely conclusion from the data in front of us is that Mab, not being an idiot, actually was carrying a set of protections on her, and Hellscry Chakra saw through it anyway. The same way the Sight would have.

Thats my two cents on the issue.
BronzeTongue said:
We never demonstrated the ability to pick local information up before the meeting. Having a big lore library isn't the same as being a high awareness monster.

Supernatural senses using this vector seem rarer than you're implying unless you're messing with nevernever spirits or absolute effects. That's probably a factor her too.

Mab knows we had Harry around for that, and supernatural senses aren't the same as information gathering in terms of what we'd demonstrated by that point.

It seems likely to me that this is effectively one of countless minor weird sensory powers instead of a highly common super useful gimmick used across the spectrum.

On the resources thing; personal power isn't something that grows over night for most people.

Unless she has some mindblank rings in her back pocket she probably had to work within some fixed pool of supernatural powers. Some of which may have had requirements limited her options. Like how almost all of our stealth charms fail when we flare.

This is the sort of stuff I'm talking about when I say you're make strong claims on baseless assumptions.
You can't actually prove anything about what she knew, what most other people actually can do mechanically in the fusion setting, what the rules on Mab's powers are, or what her resource pool looks like.

Strong assertions made missing critical information like that should be treated with skepticism.
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1)Yes we did.

Our first meeting with Mab was right after Molly assisted with the ritual that helped Arawn King shed his power and go to sleep. Mab was watching enough to show up right after. She hired the guy we made Eldest Ankou, who was there when we did it. And she has the information for when Dresden got out of jail; he was only available for the final fight, not the investigations beforehand.


2) Mab knows Dresden was in prison until around 5.30/6pm on the day.
Literally public knowledge when he was arrested because the cops and Daedalus made a big show of it.


3)Bob could see where the Nightmare ate chunks out of Dresden after attacking him in Grave Peril.
Ulsharavas could see and smell black magic on Dresden from the very first time they met. The ghosts in Ghost Story apparently could as well. And in this AU, its common to Whites with auspex, Jades and akuma with Chiuh Muh, and at least some shen.

In vanilla 20th Anniversary World of Darkness, Mages, Kindred, Kueijin, Wraiths, Sin-Eaters, Hunters and everyone with Awareness 3+ can see/sense auras.
So no, its not rare or minor.


3)Investments are a thing in both settings.
Both Dresdenverse and World of Darkness have examples of them; Harry was carrying a temporary Investment of Summer Fire when he went to Arctis Tor, and later took on a permanent Winter one upon becoming Winter Knight. We're told that Lash and Lasciel can both pull off training montages that squeeze months and years of training into an evening.

Then there's all the WoD Investments from powers dark and light, like the Fallen, The Thousand Hells, whoever is backing the Hunters, and so on.
These arent routine, but they are available to the persistent and exceptional.


4) There's no evidence of such a limitation. We've seen Mab at actual formal diplomatic meetings in the setting, at the Stone Table in Summer Knight, at Marcone's table in Skin Game, and at meetings in Peace Talks and Battle Grounds and there's no indication she is struggling with a limited power budget to do anything.

She literally just pulled an early winter storm out of nowhere at a moment's notice to provide an alibi and tactical surprise when she went to exorcise see Maeve.
Power budget does not appear to be an issue
 
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POSTSCRIPT
BronzeTongue said:
Then the cost went up.

We got something useful and are taking a jab at the critical piece we might be missing. Taking the additional cost trades our ability do anything subtle for half of a major event before we even get past the front door.
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The cost did not go up.
If we had used Occult Excellency the first time we used Hellscry Chakra, the total cost would have been 1m of Essence
Now that we're using it, the total cost is...1m of Essence.

Same cost.
 
And while we're criticising my vote, we havent been looking at yours:
BronzeTongue said:
[X] Plan Under the Gun
-[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
-[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
--[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
—-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".


[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
-[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
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Our vampires are all ex-House Malvora; of course they know who they are. Explicitly stated back in Arc 5 post 28:
DragonParadox said:
So as you walk together deeper into the tunnels she explains that all three of them were young and in her words 'skinny as a bone'. Adam had guessed that they must have been slacking their hunger on those they mugged for food. All of them are young, the recent 'failures' among House Malvora's servants, though Sarah and the others had not wanted to risk scaring them away by asking too many questions.
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Their families and their peers would have all been Malvora or Malvora aligned. The person who arranged to get them to fledge as vampires would be Malvora. Vittorio might even know them personally; there arent that many Whamps in Chicago.
As for Isabella? Isabella literally started going to Molly's school openly after becoming a vampire.

Its not rocket science. These are not mysteries that warrant calling him back.


And your stunt is basically just taunting for the sake of taunting.
Which both doesnt achieve anything, and seems actively unwise on the eve of a combat scene that already is likely to leave the Skavis unhappy with us.
 
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3 way tie.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jul 4, 2023 at 8:54 PM, finished with 106 posts and 17 votes.
  • [x] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    -[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X]Plan Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: What secrets is the owner/wearer of these items hiding?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him.
    [X] Plan Under the Gun
    -[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
    -[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
    --[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
    —-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
    [X]Plan Focused Double Take
    -[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
    --[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
    --[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
    --[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?: 1m
    -[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
    --[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
    -[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him. Moving to a nearby table to pick up a cup of white wine, you mask the direction of your intense stare by pretending to inspect it to the light.
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Spoiler'd for length reasons. I don't recall off hand if that stops quotes from pinging people, so @uju32 here's my reply to your posts.

uju32 said:
You're absolutely underestimating him and the threat he poses in favor of worrying about social encounters with Whampires.
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He spent a long time and a lot of resources on that, and lost because actors he didn't account for disrupted his plans.

He's dangerous, but Vittorio is a targeted poison for the court not a super monster who's going to burn us if we don't drop everything for him right this second.

Even if he was we can still get screwed by "lesser" issues if we time it wrong. Our known and likely imminent issues are serious enough that the approach you want to take is flatly nonviable in my eyes. If we choke here whatever we learn right not could trivially become useless.

uju32 said:
Thats my two cents on the issue.
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Agree to disagree, I simply can't accept a position substantiated solely on the basis that Mab is too perfect for HC to be anything but a nearly unblockable hack to have worked on her.

Which is what your argument boils down to, we have no real evidence for any of your supporting claims.
uju32 said:
Our first meeting with Mab was right after Molly assisted with the ritual that helped Arawn King shed his power and go to sleep. Mab was watching enough to show up right after. She hired the guy we made Eldest Ankou, who was there when we did it. And she has the information for when Dresden got out of jail; he was only available for the final fight, not the investigations beforehand.
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This means nothing in this context. Being say a high energy physics specialist with esoteric knowledge about some relevant force doesn't equate to being able to Sherlock scan people.


This is reflected in the fact that the system models alertness, awareness, and occult as different skills. You can be Batman level aware of your surroundings but miss critical supernatural happenings, catch powers in action without actually understanding what they are or are doing, and/or have deep knowledge of the supernatural but miss the obvious if you don't have time to stop and think.

uju32 said:
3)Bob could see where the Nightmare ate chunks out of Dresden after attacking him in Grave Peril.
Ulsharavas could see and smell black magic on Dresden from the very first time they met. The ghosts in Ghost Story apparently could as well. And in this AU, its common to Whites with auspex, Jades and akuma with Chiuh Muh, and at least some shen.

In vanilla 20th Anniversary World of Darkness, Mages, Kindred, Kueijin, Wraiths, Sin-Eaters, Hunters and everyone with Awareness 3+ can see/sense auras.
So no, its not rare or
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Each of those abilities have a twist or limitation that makes them more annoying to use unless they're a baseline ability that doesn't specifically use aura like awareness or auspex.

They also tend to need to be really invested in it to get anywhere near our excellency + HC trick if it's possible at all.

Being able to see the blindingly obvious isn't necessarily the same as being able to get refined readings.
uju32 said:
3)Investments are a thing in both settings.
Both Dresdenverse and World of Darkness have examples of them; Harry was carrying a temporary Investment of Summer Fire when he went to Arctis Tor, and later took on a permanent Winter one upon becoming Winter Knight. We're told that Lash and Lasciel can both pull off training montages that squeeze months and years of training into an evening.

Then there's all the WoD Investments from powers dark and light, like the Fallen, The Thousand Hells, whoever is backing the Hunters, and so on.
These arent routine, but they are available to the persistent and exceptional.
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Investments and exaltations don't work quite the same way, particularly in the power growth and variety department. She can't possibly predict our charm choices in advance, especially with the information she has available.
uju32 said:
She literally just pulled an early winter storm out of nowhere at a moment's notice to provide an alibi and tactical surprise when she went to exorcise see Maeve.
Power budget does not appear to be an issue
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Of course it doesn't appear to be an issue; Mab would be a fool to show anything of the kind for any reason.

We do the same thing, and appear the same way right down to the last drop of essence.

uju32 said:
The cost did not go up.
If we had used Occult Excellency the first time we used Hellscry Chakra, the total cost would have been 1m of Essence
Now that we're using it, the total cost is...1m of Essence.

Same cost.
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That's not what I'm talking about, which is abundantly clear in my posts.

The cost of a thing isn't just what you spend on it, risk and opportunity are always a factor and are directly an element of cost estimation.

The value of a mote changes with as we spend them specifically because it affects out risk and opportunity profile. The cost of spending all our subtle motes outside the front door is that we can't do anything without flaring until the fight breaks out. We could be stuck in there for hours for all we know right now, surrounded by whamp elders looking for a weak spot.

Suppose the return comes back worst case; Vittorio will still be here and the timing for the fight is unlikely to have a lot of flexibility, so if we have a round two before that we'd have no choice but to flare in front of the potential super senses you were speculating about if he starts spending blood points against us.
uju32 said:
And while we're criticising my vote, we havent been looking at yours
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This sounds kind of indignant, but that's sort of the point of this part of the voting cycle. It's not like we weren't just picking at flaws in each other's plans in the vote before this, or that we won't be in the one after it.

Supposing we don't end up on the same side away least, statically I think we do that about half the time anyway.

uju32 said:
Its not rocket science. These are not mysteries that warrant calling him back.
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I've addressed this; the core of my vote is specifically mocking him for playing such a stupid game with us. It's just a vehicle for twisting the knife and a potential source of a slip up if he flinches.

uju32 said:
And your stunt is basically just taunting for the sake of taunting.
Which both doesnt achieve anything, and seems actively unwise on the eve of a combat scene that already is likely to leave the Skavis unhappy with us.
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We just got one over on the heir in public, they're already unhappy.

He also did just make the least subtle threat in our guys, so I feel twisting the knife is warranted. The gain here for us is that he digs like this are an injury for him, even if they're manageable ones. It's basically bashing damage to his reputation.

Beyond that, if he is a plant the Malvora aren't going to be happy with us in any case. Even without the Outsider he's still an awful bastard who was planning genocide prior to infection, so it's unlikely that saving him is in the cards.

I just checked the wiki since the meta details are a key part of this argument already, and per the wiki:

Dresden and Carlos Ramirez challenged Malvora and Madrigal Raith to a duel for killing members of the magical community.[9] It took place during a White Court summit in the Deeps on the Raith estate[10] that devolved into a massive battle,[11]during which Vittorio Malvora was possessed by an Outsider and assisted by Cowl.[12] The conclusion of the battle involved Dresden blowing everything to kingdom come, presumably including Malvora.[13]
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The infection was definitely not where this all started even if the outsiders were potentially pulling strings.
 
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